Ezren

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Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 13 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Organized Play character.


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My players have a very low tolerance for exploration so in the past, I've pretty much just picked out my encounters and turned those parts of quests into narrative play. "One day in the desert..." became a common lead in for large parts of Mummy's Mask.

So you can imagine how thrilled I was to see Ultimate Wilderness's new Discovery and Exploration section.

I am, in fact, so thrilled that I'm giving it a test drive for Brinestump Marsh (which we are starting in a few weeks as we wrap Mummy's Mask). So, here for your feedback and potential theft, is my adaptation.

First, some explicit rules teaks. Brinestump Marsh is only two miles wide at its widest so this is extremely small for a territory. Assuming a standard twelve-mile hex, Brinestump is on the order of less than 1% that size. So I'm making three rules tweaks up front.

  • First, I'm cutting the time period down from a whole day to a piece of a day. I'm not sure if I'll use four hours or one hour increments for skill checks.
  • Second, this area is for first level characters so I'm putting the CR at 1/2 so the territory DC is 15. This is mostly because I want the success rate to approach closer to half than a quarter.
  • Third, I'm saying anything with a structure a person can stand in counts as "unusually large". (The cavern doesn't count as finding it is only an entrance.)

PCs can start with a boost by using Gather Information in Sandpoint.

  • DC 10 - The south border is quite steep and might provide a useful overlook worth taking in if you wish to explore the swamp some. (Reveals a way point)
  • ​DC 12 - Old Magus the Witch of the Swamp can be found if you follow the right path. (Reveals a location)
  • DC 15 - If you want to know more about the swamp, Walthus considers himself something of a Warden of the Swamp. Tall claim for a small man (halfling, whatever). Easy enough to find, though: just take the first path and follow it to the cove. (Reveals a way point)

To make the spooky nature of the swamp evident (and remind myself to play up the atmosphere), each period spent exploring requires a DC 12 Will Save to make the skill check.

Brinestump Marsh Territory CR 1/2
Exploration Check Survival DC 15
Location discovery scores

    Old Megus's Shack - 1 (base score 3, unusually large -2)
    Licktoad Goblins - 3 (base score 6, unusually large -2, deliberately hidden +3, traveled to or from often -4)
    Shipwreck - 4 (base score 6, unusually large -2)
    Shipwreck - 4 (base score 6, unusually large -2)
    Brinestump Caverns - 6 (base score 6)

Simple Way Signs (1 discovery point)
Visit Overlook - A successful DC 10 Survival Check to find an advantageous overlook.
Discover the Witch's Walk - A successful DC 10 Survival Check to find the overgrown trailhead. Only useful for discovering the Witch's Shack (area J)

Moderate Way Signs (3 discovery points)
Warden's Shack - Clear the house and discover (and talk to) Walthus

Complex Way Signs (5 discovery points)
Discover (and interpret) the fan/map in the Licktoad Village. Can spend on each of the locations depicted (shipwrecks and cavern).​

Random Encounters
Frequency Every exploration period
Chance of Encounter 20%
Encounter Soggy River Monster


Liz Courts wrote:
Plans, certainly! No set date for those plans though. :)

Aw :(. Very much like the paper minis and our group is about to start...


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Zair wrote:

One, sometimes when I try to highlight a player or NPC name, the program essentially locks up. It gets stuck with the mouse having the barred circle icon Ø kinda like that.

I can see the program itself is still responsive behind that, but I can't click on anything, use esc or enter to get out, or anything of the sort, so I end up having to force quit.

I've seen this happen, though I've been unable to replicate it while testing. It generally happens when I have a lot of monsters at a time. Like 20 or so. I haven't seen it happen in later versions, though, so I'm hoping Kyle fixed it somewhere in there.

Zair wrote:

Second, when I export and/or import my custom monsters, it strips them of all their skills. Everything else is intact, but they have no skills left, which is a bit awkward.

Hard to do anything with that without having the file handy. I'd ask you to send it my way, for me to take a look, but it's been a while since Kyle showed up here so I'm unsure what the official state of the project is and if I'll be able to help at all...


Lawngnome4hire wrote:

2) A skills tab for players. There are numerous situations where a GM may wish to roll a skill secretly. Perception, sense motive, stealth, are the most obvious, but maybe also disable device, diplomacy or some others. You wouldn't need all of them and that's a good thing since there isn't room for them all. But with an added tab under PC's you could easily fit in 6-9 skills or so.

This is possible now, though a bit unwieldy. If you right-click a character, you can select Edit|Monster Editor (all player characters are essentially custom monsters). Once there, you can go to the Statistics tab and add whatever skills you like and the values they should have. Once you hit okay, you'll be able to roll skills for your characters just like you do for your monsters.


DungeonJockey wrote:
I don't think this has been posted yet, but it's been a bug for a while. Anytime the Zuvembie is selected in the monster listing it crashes the Combat Manager. Also, thanks for making my number 1 GM tool!

I found the bug and emailed a patch to Kyle with a fix. That monster has brackets in its spellblock and that was giving the parser indigestion.


DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

I don't suppose the next version might have a fix for the attack merging problem that currently persists?

Basically, when a person has more than one mode of attack (like two melee options), if you put any condition on them that changes any stats at all or if you manually modify the stats, all the "or" instances disappear, making a long string of attacks that you can no longer choose from.

Example, the Two-Weapon Warrior has several entries, one for Doublestrike (one attack with two weapons), one for full attack (all attacks with both weapons), and one for his backup dagger. They're separated by "or" normally, but upon putting any status effect on spell on that modifies anything, every "or" disappears, making it one long strike of about a dozen attacks.

Right now, that's my biggest gripe, because since I run at high levels frequently, there are buffs and debuffs all the time, and I have to redo their attack options every time I put a status effect on or change an ability score.

"+5 keen longsword +40 (1d8+18/17-20/x4), +5 short sword +38 (1d6+18/19-20) or +5 keen longsword +44/+39/+34/+29 (1d8+22/17-20/x4), +5 short sword +42/+37/+32 (1d6+22/19-20) or +1 dagger +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d4+10/19-20)" becomes "+5 keen longsword +40 (1d8+18/17-20/x4), +5 short sword +38 (1d6+18/19-20) +5 keen longsword +44/+39/+34/+29 (1d8+22/17-20/x4), +5 short sword +42/+37/+32 (1d6+22/19-20) +1 dagger +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d4+10/19-20)". It's frustrating.

Thanks in advance.

This bugged me enough that I created a patch for it. I'll submit that as soon as I figure out where Kyle wants me to put it.


So do I need to post a separate message to have the bug addressed, or do you think "Cos" will pick it up from here?


I started an adventure subscription which shipped on 7/29, opting for issue #11 (which arrived in good order). Now my subscription says:

"Most recent volume:
Volume #11 shipped 07/29/08 via UPS Ground (estimated 2 business days in transit)

Next volume:
Volume #14 is scheduled to ship September 2008"

This is not a happy-making discovery. I certainly never received the option to skip both the ending of the current adventure and the beginning of the next! Since I'm also not seeing the 15% advertised discount on other items I'd like to order (even after placing them in the shopping cart), I'm wondering if there isn't some bigger problem with my subscription.


airwalkrr wrote:
A bard has a very clearly defined role: support. The PRPG bard is now more of a battlefield controller, but his previous abilities of support remain. Despite the diverse bard skill list, many 3.5 bards used their skill points primarily for Knowledge skills, being one of only two classes with all Knowledge skills on their list. It was natural for many players to want to take advantage of that. Their bardic music abilities are designed to support the party, protecting them and enhancing their existing abilities. Their spells were a mix of battlefield control and support spells, much like the cleric. Ultimately, the bard filled a support role similar to that of a cleric or druid with less emphasis on healing.

That's the current concept. I think that concept is flawed. When a typical player thinks of bard personalities from fiction or popular conception, they aren't seeing support. They are seeing star. They are seeing ego. They are seeing charisma and leadership. If the rules don't support that conception (and you have pretty much admitted that they don't), then playing the bard is going to be an exercise in frustration from the cognitive dissonance resulting from the disconnect between reality and concept.


rein451 wrote:
When I say Jack-of-all trades, I mean that you can build a bard to fit any role, mechanically, based on party makeup. If you have a wizard, fighter, and rogue in the party, you can build him to be a healer. You can make your bard anything you want...that to me is a big attraction of the class.

I know that's what you meant. I'm saying this isn't an asset for a class that is supposedly extroverted. All the bards from fiction and imagination want to have the spot-light. When most people think of a bard, they think of the guy on the stage, the focus of all attention, directing their emotions through a performance. The bard directs and controls and that's not a support or stop-gap or band-aid kind of role. If your concept of the bard is as a band-aid to fill in where needed or as the best alternative to having the "real thing", then you'll find the actual role fundamentally at odds with the popular concept. That makes it hard to get a handle on the personality of your bard as a player (whether you're playing the bard or dealing with one in your party).

And aside from the role-playing aspects, being a second-class anything is a suck. If your party needs a healer, make a cleric. If it needs a fighter, create a fighter. A Jack-of-all-trades sucks because you'd always prefer to have the real deal when the chips are down.


rein451 wrote:
I can see how bards get pigeonholed into the role of negotiators: they're the only core class besides sorcerors and paladins who NEED a good charisma AND have the points to invest in the skills that make that role work. But to say that bard's have to fill that role, doesn't that take away from the jack-of-all-trades mentality?

I don't think that the "Jack-of-all-Trades mentality" is an asset to the class. I think it leaves people without a handle on playing the character or what their role in the party can/should be. Which means the bard is often the after-thought/forgotten character when it comes to party dynamics. Which I think is a crying shame for a class that is ostensibly extroverted enough to have "perform" as a required skill.


0gre wrote:

IMO one of the big problems with bards is there is no decent counterpart in fantasy fiction that make a lot of sense. There are some examples of Wizards/ sorcerers that cast spells using songs/ music but IMO they are more like D&D sorcerers than D&D bards. The closes think in fiction I can think of for a bard parallel is JonTom From the Alan Deal Foster's Spellsinger series.... however even he is more like a battle sorcerer than a Bard.

Looking at the bulk of fiction I read there are 3 main heroic 'roles' the wizard, the rogue, and the fighter. Sometimes the fighter matches the ranger/ barbarian/ paladin role more closely. Clerics are usually secondary characters. Bards like they are in D&D? Rare or non-existant.

Eh? I have to disagree. Yeah, bards aren't as common in the literature as warriors or wizards, but they're hardly absent. The wikipedia article on D&D bards gives enough background on the inspiration for the class to understand why they've been in D&D since 1e. From Fflewddur Fflam in Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain to Stephen R. Lawhead's Taliesin, bards can hardly be said to be absent in the literature.


I like the bard upgrade in general. I think that the lower levels are still a little weak, but around level 8 they get pretty powerful performance effects. This is good. I think bards need more than a combat upgrade, though, and I'll try to explain.

One thing that remains missing, IMO, is a well-defined party role. The class still comes across as "jack of all trades" (though I don't think that it's an earned impression in Pathfinder, it still remains). I think my problem is that bards still lack a well-defined party function and a sense of flash (and if there's a class that should have flash it's the bard!). I think Terry Zimmerman has a good start with adding some of the swashbuckler abilities but that doesn't sit quite right with me--at least in terms that it's only a piece of my itch with bards.

This is too bad because I think a bard does have a natural party role that the rules have simply never supported. When a party comes to the "talky bits" (audience with the king, recruiting cannon fodd... er... henchpersons, negotiations with a potential short-term ally), the party naturally wants to turn to the bard. The problem is, bards don't have any built-in, natural abilities in that department. And they should! Something like the Dread Pirate's honorable line of abilities would be a good start. Something that codifies a bard's sense of fame and general welcome. Something that gives bard players a clear path that allows them to fall into success during those talky bits.

At a minimum, a bard should get natural bonus(es) to diplomacy--without a performance check. i.e. they should be naturally glib. It wouldn't hurt if they got some Sense Motive (which, BTW is missing from both the "Unchanged Skills" and "Altered Skills" lists) as well.

Here's where my creativity runs out. If I were to get any fancier, I'd try to put together a "Fame" or "Reputation" stat (like in d20 Modern maybe) and see where that goes. Maybe call the diplomacy/sense motive bonus "Fame" and bump it every couple of levels?