Iziah Gile 288's page

So, Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, specifically and only, do not have access to spells outside the CRB without "Learning a Spell". This is where the logic of the ruling breakdown for me.

Ignore Cleric and Druid for the moment, since they are unique in gaining access to all spells on their list (ignoring this stupidity). So, a Wizard is limited to CRB, but a Sorceror is not? What goal does that restriction serve?

It can't be a balance concern, because it only applies to some classes, not others. If the spells themselves are balanced, why restrict them at all? If the spells are not balanced, why allow access to any class without restriction?

Is it because the classes involved are not limited in the number of spells they can know? Wizards can learn an infinite number of spells, and our divine duo automatically "know" all spells they are capable of casting. That's the only common thread between the 3 classes and the restriction. But that's supposedly balanced by the fact that they need to choose each day what portion of those spells they can cast.

Are there any other prepared caster that is not limited to CRB spells?

Some have mentioned the rule as allowing GM control over content (and OP being the Ultimate GM in Society). But that makes no sense because they only have that control over these 3 classes, but no others.

Further, OP already HAS an existing way to control content. Content has to be approved for Society play, and can be made limited or restricted.

So, yeah. I truly don't see what purpose this rule serves. It defeats part of the purpose of having generalized spell lists (suddenly, I can't just say I can take any <X> spell, I can only take an <X> spell from CRB), and seems to be restriction for the sake of restriction. I'll personally be ignoring it if the current ruling stands.

What above means, that the Ysoki is always going to win out on the Shirren as an Envoy, emphasizing the same stats. Just like the Orc and the Elf, that's just the way the game plays when a race/class combo isn't good.

That's kinda a poor example. Orcs get HOSED for stats in comparison. Elves are +2, +2, -2; Orcs are +4, -2, -2, -2. A Better example would be a Dwarf Wizard Vs an Elf Wizard. But I still generally agree! It's not to advantage comparatively, and it shouldn't be. But, it's almost workable (And would be if Orcs weren't in the hole attribute-wise, regardless of distribution). I've played dwarf Wizards before, and had a Blast!

And with the PF buy you illustrated, I feel like the Shirren becomes workable/mechanically competitive. Yes, the Ysoki will be better (one of it's 14s will be a 16, it'll have a spare point to throw somewhere), and I'm 1000% ok with that! An off-type build is GOING to be weaker, and thats ok.

But with the point buy system as it is now, I feel like if you aren't at least partially, if not fully, playing into your race's strengths, you are going to end up dead weight in the party in comparison. And thats really limiting. It can be really fun to play against type, to be the 'different one'.

Starfinder definitely encourages spreading points out more than Pathfinder does.

This is flat out incorrect. To start, there is no "pre-racial" in Starfinder. You get 10s, you apply Racials, then Theme, then spend points. And In Pathfinder, the fact that lower values were cheaper makes buying multiple good stats way more economical than in Starfinder.

In Pathfinder, using a race with 2 +2s and a -2, the best spread-out/balanced stat array you can get is 16, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10. You could also do 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 11, if that's your bag. Two 16s a 14 and a 12, or four 14s and a 12

In Starfinder, the best spread out array you could get is 14, 14, 14, 11, 10, 10. Three 14s is the best you can hope for.

In Pathfinder, the best focused/unbalanced array you can do is 20, 15, 10, 10, 10, 8. Versus Starfinder, the best focused array you could build is 18, 17, 10, 10, 10, 8.

Starfinder's focused array is equal to or better than Pathfinder's (harder comparison, since there's no 20 stat in SF at first level), Pathfinder's balanced arrays blows Starfinder's out of the water. There's no question.

No worries, I don't feel attacked. And I agree, it's ~almost~ to where it could work. It is 1 point away (which might as well be 2, with how Stats function). Working, mind you, is still behind what you can get from building to your race's strength. This character is upwards of 6 stat points behind a character built the same way, but using a race that fits the attributes better. I feel like if it had 2 (or, like you said, even 1) more stat points I could shuffle, it'd work. It'd fit the image in my head, and not be so gimped as to be drag on the party.

I probably shouldn't have used the term ideal; what I meant was "This is the minimum statline I could see working with the concept." I'd love if I could get one of the 14s to a 16, or maybe the int to a 14 (more skills = more choices, right?).

As to the question of "your character is less <X>, that doesn't mean he's more <Y>"... Not necessarily, no. But that's the entire premise of the rest of the point buy system. My character is less <X>, because I chose not to allocate points, and as a result, more <Y>. And if you are playing to your race's strengths, you don't need the extra points. It only matters if you are trying to play off-type.

Considering the Ability score increases every 5 levels... *shrugs* it affects all characters equally, and it's still possible, if maybe not wise, to have a weak stat. Still, even if you put points towards you weak stat, it can still be the weakest of your stats, the thing that holds you back compared to others with your level of worldly experience. Or, based on RP, maybe you outgrow that weakness, and a different stat becomes your weakpoint. Or maybe, if it floats your boat, you just become incredibly well rounded, with only 1 or 2 exceptional stats.

But, considering how much of the game is spent at low levels (so many games die before reaching those higher levels. for society play, death and leveling out of mods ensures a constant rate of low level play), I feel like the start is where a lot of the focus needs to be.

You can play that though, as far as I can tell you can drop a stat to below the norm. You just don't get extra points to spend on other things for doing so. If not getting extra points is a deal breaker, well it seems less like Role playing and more like min-maxing. The option is there, it's just there solely for role playing instead of as a way for people to min-max more effectively. To me this is a good thing, though I know not all will agree with me.

Well, let to explain it all out. The character in my head is a Chaotic Good space bug envoy. He's determined to make the best out of his ability to make CHOICES!, loves people and being helpful, and is very curious about the universe (find ALL THE CHOICES). His curiousity makes him a bit ADD though, and impulsive. My ideal statline in my head for the character is this:

Str - 10 (Str doesn't really factor into the concept at all, so average is fine)
Dex - 14 (As to be combat capable / not completely outshined)
Con - 10 (12 is fine though, given Shirren bonuses. Con doesn't really play into the concept one way or the other)
Int - 12 (Slightly more intelligent than average, plays into his curiousity)
Wis - 8 (I'd be fine with 10, given Shirren bonuses, bit more flakey and ADD than your average Shirren, but really, 8's what's in my head)
Cha - 14 (He loves people, and people like him. He's good at what he does [Envoy])

I mean, there are min-maxy aspects of it. I want the character to have a base level of competency in his class ({Envoy}, so Cha based, admittedly rough with a race with a deficiency in that stat), and combat stuff (because no one likes being a deadweight). But I don't feel like wanting 2 14s and a 12 in your stats is too much to ask for (Considering if you are playing to type on your race, you can have 2 16s and and 12)? And, I can get that, just not in the stats I choose. That's where it's stifling of creativity. Your race's strengths are immutable, and the only way to rectify that by the rules is to volentarily disadvantage yourself, and that still doesn't solve the balance issue to trying to play off-type.

So, I could play the character. But, as I stated way up above, it'd be rather mechanically disadvantageous to do so, at least compared to a character built to their race's strength. Making this character, I'm a net -2 to attribute points for stats I care about for the concept, Versus another character who could be a net +4. A 6 point swing in attributes is not insignificant.

If I built this character as a Ysoki, my 2 racials would add to stats I wanted higher than a 10, and my -2 would be to a stat I wouldn't care about. Oh no, my small rat isn't very strong. With the stat points I saved, I could raise it back up to 10, or just be like *shrugs*

The ability to drop a single stat 2 points for points returned would make a huge difference (Or hell, maybe 2 points split, if you liked). You could add a single stat weakness to any character if desired, including reducing one of your racial's back down to average, and return a bit of flexibility to character creation. Like I said, currently, I feel like it's too penalizing to try to play off-type.

In the end, a case like mine is probably an edge case, so I'd get it if nothing ever changed. 90% of the characters I create for the game won't have such a rough time of it. But, it's a stick in my craw currently, since I got really excited over the character in my head, went to put him to paper, and realized that mechanically, it wasn't very viable.

Darkling36 wrote:

If not getting extra points is a deal breaker, well it seems less like Role playing and more like min-maxing.

When you sit down at the table of any pick up game, you're entering an unspoken agreement with your fellow players to do your best to succeed at the mission, and they agree to do the same for you. Purposefully making a weaker character, strikes me as breaching that trust.

Not to mention, if everyone else is constantly outperforming you because you chose a suboptimal build, it's possibly less fun for you as well.

I feel like this thread has gone kinda offtopic, but since the original question of the topic has already been 100% addressed, I feel ok with that >_>

It is Society legal rule and as such it is mentioned in the SFS Roleplaying Guild Guide.

Per the SFS Roleplaying Guide:

That's all the guide says on generating ability scores (unless they've updated the guide, and the one I have from last week is out of date?). Given it's an optional rule that's not specifically called out as being allowed, it's debatable whether or not it's legal. I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed, but I also assume optional rules are disallowed unless specifically called out otherwise. *shrugs*

Am I wrong in my understanding that you can dump stats all you want, but you just don't get any extra points from it?

That's 100% an option for home play if your GM allows it (it's an optional rule), and (to my knowledge, mostly gleaned from the above in this thread) debated if it's allowed in society play. I imagine they'll clarify it. Depends on how permissive you read the attributes section to be. =) I don't see a reason it shouldn't be allowed, really.

All core races, except humans, get -2 in some ability score. You can use that to start with 8 in one of the ability scores.

That's great if you are looking to play on-type to your race's weakness. It does nothing for you otherwise though.

And I hadn't even considered it from a Human perspective yet. It's impossible for a human to be weak in a stat. Worst case scenario, they're merely average =\. That's really rough for point one, though the flexible +2 means there's no offtype class for them, so the second problem doesn't apply to them so much.

I am, have been, and will continue to be a regular min-maxer. It's just a natural part of how I play and I manage to do it without being a problem for the rest of the table. That said, I'm completely ok with not being able to get extra points for dropping a stat. For all that many people may complain that they have a hard time fitting stats to a concept without this ability I think it's pretty easy to agree that 90% or more of the time it was used in PFS for a str 7 caster or a cha 7 fighter. I'm not saying that people are lying about how they want to use this ability, just that the unspeaking majority use it differently. I enjoy a character with a good weakness, but if I never again have to play with a wizard who can barely carry their own CLW wand it'll be too soon.

You are correct, having the option to dump stats means it will inevitably be abused by certain types of players. But I'm not a fan of limiting non-abusive players in order to solve that problem. And it IS limiting, unfortunately. Fortunately, for most play, you can work with your GM, and bend/break or houserule certain things. But that doesn't work for society play, and it saddens me that I probably won't get to play my somewhat manic, curious helper bug with folks. (CHOICES, Man! You can't make choices without knowing what the choices are! You can't know what choices are good choices if you don't try different choices! CHOICES!)

I'm really divided over this, personally. Reduction of Mix-Maxing, ok, cool. I'm down with that. It's having 2 unfortunate side-effects though, both relating to playing off-type:

1. You cannot play a character with a weakness counter to race. Not even "My race averages a 12, but I'm a 10" level of weakness. And sorry, I reject the arguement that "Your 12 is weak for your race." If I have a bonus in the stat, it's not a weakness.

2. It's prohibitively disadvantaging to play a race/class combo that the race's stats don't support. For example, I've been looking at playing a Shirren Envoy, and mechanically, I can't even create a statline with two 14s and a 12 in the stats I want/need for the character concept (Instead, I get a 12 in Wis and Con, one of which is concept neutral, one of which is actually counter to the concept). Two 14s and a 12 is hardly mix-maxing. Yes, I could adapt the concept to a different Race (and may yet. Ysoki would make the concept work mechanically beautifully, and it'd still be fitting RP-wise, though more tropey than I wanted, and misses out on the Shirren stuff I liked.)

Honestly, if the rules allowed just one stat to drop to 8, it'd be SUPER helpful, solving both issues to a degree. You could drop a racial stat, ending at a 10 and being 'weak' in it, letting you have the flavor of unexpectedly weak in the stat, and it would give you more room to play with stats for other off-type race/character combinations.