Pacing yourself is extremely important. Feel free to post at whatever frequency you need to.
That being said, it's good to hear from ya.
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Infernal:
"Oh hey, a language I recognize. Are we talking the tongues of Hell? Grandma taught me to know thy enemy, especially when they wrap plans among plans among plans around their finger." Elven: She gives Baron Sendi some puppy dog eyes.
"I know he will choke the trades even further... Hey, do you mind if I cheat a bit? I don't know what everyone is saying, but I can... enhance myself to learn that."
Issil doesn't recognize either language.
Issil considers conjuring a gallon of water above... wait, who is this guy?
Dagger of Venom is all yours, Geoff. I think Issil will hold off on purchases for now.
Issil glamours her dress so the red matches the manor a bit better. Her dark red gloves match her ruby heels, and she makes sure her exposed shoulders aren't too dry. "Lady Ducor, you've done more than enough for us. We'll knock his socks off in no time."
"Geoff, you're always pretty. But maybe we should take the spotlight this time." She grins.
Issil thinks about what she's heard in each family. "Baron Sendi loves to be taken for a ride. We can mess with him directly. Vic here can probably lie better than I can." She laughs. "Social cues is my life. Baron Jhaltero is a juicy one." "House Jarvis is also a good bite. I'm no carpenter, but I know how to talk to people." She sighs. "Perfect time for Pádraig to go underground. One of his songs and the Archbaroness would have melted in front of him. Then again the last time he did this he couldn't walk for a few days."
Here's how we should split Pádraig's loot: lesser extend metamagic rod (Morv)
Issil will give Geoff her Dagger of Poison in exchange for his merciful dagger. She also wants that jeweled dagger scabbard.
Issil snorts as Lady Ducor mentions her family name. "Yeah, don't trust those dirty Tanessens." She rubs her brooch and laughs. "Anyway, red? No problem." Issil has been glamouring her armor this whole while. "But the other houses probably can be messed with. Which one is the easiest to bend?" She thinks carefully.
She begins paying attention once Lady Ducor finishes up. "I can't wait to meet the ladies again. And your lessons are free while you're supporting the Silver Ravens. Right Pádraig?"
"Are we sure this isn't a trap?" Issil begins glamouring her armor. "I mean, he's begging us to crash the party. Which I gladly will. There must be a few nobles who will be willing to trade places with us."
Issil makes sure to blow kisses and to every single dottari guard who so much as frowns at her. She loves the attention and even winks at some of her previous customers. It was only a matter of time, anyway. Why hasn't Thrune simply tried to crush the rebellion, if he knows who they are? It's a puzzle for the ages. Issil sits back down in the Lucky Bones. "Man, the hike was fun but I do miss civilized culture. I dunno about you guys, but I need a hot bath. Maybe a massage or two." she giggles and downs a mug of water. "Hey Pádraig. Hey Rosie. Going to do some behind the scenes undercover work, eh? It's for the best, probably. If Thrune singles us out you'll get to carry on our mission... hmm. We do need a fourth person though. It never feels right with just three." She shrugs. "Hey, Lady Docur! And here I thought you were ghosting me after the first few lessons." Issil turns her attention. "What happened to the school? What happened to the students there? Are... are they alright?" Issil's cheerful demeanor fades as she finally grows concerned.
As long as we carry the monster loot back, I'm good. Besides, how many guards would actually reach this keep if ogres and bacchae drove them insane every day?
"Yeah, suck it, Thrune! Woo!" Issil is quite excited to see the keep return to ash. "High five, everyone!" Those are free. "Let's catch up to Pádraig and hightail it back home. I feel like I've been here for weeks!"
"Cool. Let's blow this joint." Issil grins and then stretches a bit in anticipation.
"Look, grandma told me devils are bullshit. They're here in Chileax, they put some handsome but corrupt guy in charge. We fought a fiendish woman here, clearly made of evil and corruption. She fled, but she'll be back and will corrupt this place again." "Now, we need your help to clear this place up of evil." Issil shrugs. "And one way is to activate that anvil. They can't claim a pile of rubble, and maybe this place will get a chance to clean up."
"Now then, step aside or help us kill some more devils on the way out. Or maybe both. I don't care."
"Well, that was easy- oh." Issil sighs as two more fiery guardians appear before her and mumble in languages she doesn't understand. Oh yeah. She can magically Comprehend Languages, so she casts that. She nods. "Oh, they're asking why we want to use the anvil. Cool." she chuckles as the Supreme High Commander adds his sassy spin to the solution. "Mention it's been corrupted by a tyrant."
Issil waits patiently, her whip at the ready.
"I've got a mace and a club, but no hammer. Drinking wine is a fine idea, but maybe after we blow this place up."
Issil scans the room for magical auras. "I assume they will... zap us with divine punishment somehow."
"So... anyone knows any prayers to Torag? I flunked out of church. Asmodeus isn't my style." Issil yawns.
"Good. He's free." Issil speaks to herself. She's quiet and content for a moment.
"Yeah. If we're done here, it's time to get to that room with the praying dwarves, then slap an anvil and hightail it."
Attempted Red/White/Blue, but coconut sugar is brown, not white.
Issil's happy face finally frowns. "Lucian... bound you here?" She hesitates. "You should get out of here. The Silver Ravens are going to bring this place down, quick."
Issil laughs. "Marriage? Ha! You can't lock me down like that, Lucian." She saunters forward to the next room. "So is this the Wyvern's nest?" She takes a look and shrugs. "No way am I sticking my neck out there. Let's head back to that Torag Temple and topple this place."
"Well that was fun." Issil shrugs. "That devil dance was hilariously bad." She begins looking through the treasure. "Damn, how much do we have to carry back?" Appraise, Spellcraft and Guidance, oh my!:
Issil looks at the Arrows, Lacy White Dress, and the Flask. "I have no idea what these are worth. Someone else look at 'em."
"This sword is designed to cut into humans. Really effective at it." Issil holds the blade awkwardly, she's not even sure how to counterbalance it. Geoff must be so ashamed.
Issil wonders how much of Lucian's wardrobe she could repurpose to look good on her. Oh, and something about this devil. Once he's gone she can start glamouring her armor in peace.
Hmm, a feather boa... Issil smiles and muses to herself.
"Alright then. Thanks Geoff." She gives him a kiss on the cheek. 'My hero." She sticks her tongue out at Lucian.
"Uh... lots of magic in here. How does this work, again? Anyone read Dwarven?"
"Oh, this is bad." Issil drops her whip and draws a mace as she's pummeled. "Insert a joke about rock hard pounding, here." She rolls her eyes. "Not like you'd be the first one to crack that joke."
She adopts a defensive pose and counterstrikes. Meanwhile her Spiritual Ally flanks with Lucian, lord of the dance.
Issil redirects the Spiritual Ally to help Geoff.
Unable to do much (and not willing to block Lucian) Issil cracks her whip and tries to disarm the stone giant.
Issil drops her whip.
The Spiritual Ally smashes the statue with its mace as it passes by.
The room is cramped. Time for a Spiritual Ally to harass the the Green Guardian with a mace.
"I wasn't sure if the statues would attack us for stealing the hammers, or for giving the wrong password. Oh well!"
"Torag. This... must be the place." Issil keeps her whip ready. "No way are we gonna approach the iron without something stupid showing up."
Issil groans as Lucian talks about Golarion's shape. "Not THIS again. Please don't talk about the Great Illusion..."
Appraise:
Add +4 if they are magical.
Issil takes a gander at several of Lucian's goods.
"A merciful dagger. Nice when you don't want to kill. Plus, it's magical." Issil pulls the dagger out of the wall, entranced by its magic.
"I was gonna mention that, Pádraig. If we show up with Lucian here, they are gonna have a fit. Those halflings need to be calmed down first." - She looks curiously at the many items in Lucian's chamber. "Well, good wine. I wonder where he has been sleeping." She notes the bed. "Maybe that devil really knew where his tattoos were." She chuckles. "So, which secret door do we want to try? Now we found 2 of them."
"Yeah, you better run!" Issil's hands are on her hips as she cocks her head back and forth. "Anyone hurt, seriously?" She takes a look. "Good thinking, V- er, Lucian. Where do we go from here? Time to see the next room?"
The Spiritual Weapon flails uselessly while Issil plans her next move. "Yeah, Lucian and tattoos. I do wonder where he blesses his tattoo." She laughs and tries to heal Geoffrey.
"We gotta get a better solution when the target is flying. Can't let Lucian handle all the fun."
"Yuck." Issil feels the goo reach into her mind. It doesn't find the moral heart of gold it was going for, so it claws at her neutral copper spirit instead. Good thing Pádraig was there to help.
"So, let's start with Spiritual Weapon."
"Get flayed alive or kill a crazy lady. Well, you drive a hard bargain, but..." Issil shrugs.
Issil remembers everyone lecturing her about restraint. But the room and the woman's words cause her to reconsider. "So, we're not going to interrogate her, right?" She unleashes a pair of Admonishing Rays at the woman.
"We'll have to explain to those other Halflings why we're chummy with their overseer." She looks at the guards. "Take the money and these screaming bolts. Everything else is trash. We have enough trouble carrying the Ogre's loot back."
"Mmm, spanking Really getting into character, there..."
"Oh yeah. Give me a second."
"No idea what the mirror is worth, but it does catch my good side." She stares at her reflection for a bit longer. "Where to, next?" She fidgets with the Hat of Disguise to subtly improve her looks.
"Wow, he has some interesting tastes. And some creepy ones." She looks at her reflection in his pocket mirror. "But I can find a buyers... then I'll find some sellers!" She giggles. "Oh, and a key or something."
Issil turns back to Thrune. "Huh? What did I miss? Oh." "Sorry Pádraig. This spirit knows how to slice and flank. High five!" She high fives the Spiritual Ally as it fades away. "I'm not sure he would do anything besides laugh at us, anyway. I'm... not in the mood for torture." "Well, we found the prisoners. Commander's dead. We need to find that anvil." She raises an eyebrow. "Secret door?"
Issil is fine with nonlethal, but I don't think I can control the spiritual ally's swing. By RAW I guess initiative order wins here. But this ain't PFS, we do it live! (Or by the GM's will)
I mean, let my players make a smart barbarian and you'll have my attention. Let my players make a gnome fighter who specializes in tavern brawls and doesn't actually own a weapon and you'll have my interest. Let my players play a game with less emphasis on resource management/tracked abilities and more emphasis on mold-breaking, creativity, and individuality and you'll have my money. Take RPG Superstar—it takes a lot of work to run that. Early on, the return we were getting out of it—the expansion of our writing talent pool—was high enough that we had several of our top people working on it. But over the years, it provided less and less return for our time invested, and eventually, we decided it was on the wrong side of that equation, so we needed to stop doing it. Bring back RPG Superstar or at least apologize to the community for referring to aspiring writers and dedicated fans as "a return on an investment" in what is essentially the only explanation as to why you no longer host what was once one of the very few ways to gain traction in the RPG writing community at large...then you'll have my respect, Mr. Mona. Find Mr. Wertz's original posting here.
Don't leave on my account. My reply was more to you, not really about you. So we imagined bigger this time, and I'm certain they will also soon be completely sold out. I simply wouldn't feel right charging someone for something unfinished, regardless of whether they wanted to pay for it. Sets an uncomfortable precedent. So if you're done with the game for good, I say "fair enough" and thank you for your feedback. If not, you're welcome to stick around and see how we're doing in the year between now and the final release of the rules in 2019. I'll be sticking around for many of the same reasons that I dislike the playtest. Paizo offers a product that I enjoy greatly and I cannot get anywhere else. And I will never be done with the game for good; someone like you should know that. It is very likely, however, that I am done with the game you're selling.
even if we would prefer that it sometimes not be stated so rudely Looking back at one or two of my most recent posts, I do regret some of the confrontational stances I've been taking. It's easy to get caught up in the anonymity of a forum, and seeing a play-by-play response from one of the higher ups rather brought me back down to earth. However that is not to say that I don't stand by what I said, merely how I said it. Reading through the Pathfinder Playtest, I gradually realized that almost everything that made me fall in love with the game had been drastically changed, or removed. I love watching players come up with creative and wild characters that clash with fantasy tropes or go against the grain of their classes, and I love that pathfinder essentially says, "there's a rule for that!". And so I was very disappointed to see that each class comes with a blurb encouraging players to make cliche characters, and encouraging their party members to interact with them in cliche ways (barbarian was especially disconcerting as it encouraged teammates to insult them behind their back) I love that no matter what kind of character you wanted to build, there was a way to build them, whether it be feats, spells, skills, or archetypes. And so I was heartbroken to see that the majority of content is now class-locked; forcing players to either play to their class, or pick a class before creating a character. To be frank, I am conflicted, because I want to see this game continue to thrive, however I do not know if much of the game I love will survive this playtest. I want to help make a difference by submitting feedback, but I know that most of the changes I would suggest are untenable. And honestly? I want to be upset. Upset because I don't believe there is a game I will enjoy coming. Upset because I feel powerless as a consumer. Upset at seeing Paizo charge people $30+ for the privilege of helping them finish a product, just to charge them $30+ again when it's finished. And upset that a company I go to for tabletop RPGs is tasking the community with creating a tabletop RPG for them. I have some opinions when it comes to Paizo, Mr. Mona, and the playtest rather served as a tipping point for me. I regret and apologize for any combative posts, and since I doubt very much that I will be purchasing any Pathfinder 2.0 content, I will abstain from any further posts about it. Even though it didn't help me much, thank you for taking the time to reply.
I keep seeing a lot of posts, from both players and actual, real-life Paizo staff, that people need to play the game before providing any feedback. To quote Paizo CTO Vic Wertz,
Tell us about your actual game play. Theory is all well and good, but everybody’s got theories, and we’ve probably heard most of them already. Tell us how things are actually working in play, not how you think things will work. But we should all keep in mind that the playtest is a game; and if someone is not excited enough to play the game then that is a valid complaint. We can all argue about whether someone's issues were real or perceived, and we can tell people that the problems they had go away in actual gameplay, but if a person chooses not to play a game because it seems to complex, boring, confusing, bland, tedious, or time-consuming, then that is a valid criticism against that game. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we argue about on the forums. What matters is how many people buy the rulebook at a bookstore and take it home; and if someone picks up the book and it looks boring, they're not going to reserve judgement until they've played a couple sessions. They're going to put it down, and just go with 5e.
Yeah, that. So far Mark Seifter, Jason Bulmahn and the others have been pretty quiet and have not really given a detailed response to many of the concerns (and I am talking about the ones where detailed feedback was given, not the "the world is ending!" ones). Given how James said that they'd start interacting with us after getting a bit of rest after GenCon, it's a bit worrying. Especially since they were so active during the preview period, when we could look forward to dozens of posts per blog post. To be honest, I'm not really concerned by radio silence. But I am very much concerned when staff spend the time and effort to write posts like these: - "If we thought that there were huge problems, of course we would fix them!"- "Actually, it seems you may have misunderstood us. If you go back and re-read the previews/rulebook/blogs/staff comments, you'll see that there actually isn't a problem!" - "Wow, these all sound like significant complaints that you have presented in a very thoughtful and organized manner. Luckily, the folks at GenCon LOVED the game; so I'm sure that you'll feel better after you play the game." But they don't spend the time or energy to write posts like these: - "This is a fair criticism that we have seen in many places. I will be sure to bring it up with our design team!"
If Paizo is too busy looking over surveys and forums to post updates constantly, that's fine. But if they do have time to engage with the player base on complaints and criticisms, they should NOT be spending all of that time defending their product against those complaints and criticisms.
With all due respect, Ms. Stevens, the people who take days off work, rent hotel rooms, and fly out of state for a tabletop gaming convention will always be excited about a tabletop game. Lots of people on these forums have been expressing concern about the market demand for PF 2e and where exactly the new edition will fit into the rpg world. And thus far, the standard response from Paizo staff has been "The people at GenCon loved it!" Which is a rather worrying response because it tells players: - Negative criticism isn't being taken seriously, but positive praise is
On top of this, thus far Paizo staff have only really taken to the forums to defend their product, rather than to acknowledge widespread complaints (and occasionally break up fights). Which is EVEN MORE concerning because it sends the message that Paizo either fights back against criticism, or does not listen to it. If some Paizo staff would weigh in on issues that large numbers of players are having (resonance, caster/martial disparity, difficulty parsing information in CRB, etc.) then it would help show that the company is listening. I realize that this is a very high-stress and high-demand time for all of Paizo's staff, but I, for one, do not believe that these types of responses help us as consumers or Paizo as a company. Although to be fair, you're the CEO and I am not, so take it with a grain of salt.
But it's important to approach these types of suggestions the right way. Adding tips and generalized suggestions for new players or players who struggle to think of outlandish character ideas is perfectly fine! But it's so so crucial to give those tips and then encourage other ideas in the process. Reminding players that they can come up with their own ideas and create against-the-grain characters helps them go from new players needing inspiration to veteran players like yourself. If an RPG only mentions stereotypical concepts and ideas and doesn't encourage player creativity along the way, it can lead to a lower chance of players trying new things simply because they didn't realize they could. This is especially true of newer players who often ONLY know fantasy tropes and cliches when coming into the game.
Because of action economy. There was no way for a wizard to summon 20 things in the first round of combat so your example is not valid. So your argument is "high level casting in 1.0 inevitably leads to overwhelming minion summoning and tedious combats" but you had to specifically build a character from the ground up to achieve that? Also, just because an issue was addressed does not mean that it was fixed. They could introduce crowd-based mechanics for large numbers of allies in combat, maybe branching off of swarm mechanics. They could have summoning spells 'level up' with the PC, with only one list of creatures available at any time, but higher level lists have more interesting options. There are myriad ways to approach the problem, but the tactic Paizo seems to have taken is to simply discourage players from summoning at all. If you're going to argue against valid criticisms, at least contribute possible solutions or other ways forward instead of just trying to pull apart the complaints of others. Paizo needs to hear all the criticisms players have, and the best way to help is to have a thoughtful discussion of how to address those criticisms. I've seen you on a number of criticism threads just poking holes in the arguments of other people. And you should know that you can keep doing that all you want, but it won't help Paizo fix the issues presented, and those issues may drive those people away from the game.
Where "here" is "Pathfinder sells worse than its Sci-Fi offshot". I mean, I would argue that the reason Starfinder did (and is doing) so well is the same reason the first book of Skull and Shackles sold out long before any others; it's unique in the world of RPGs. There are plenty of sci-fi tabletops, but Starfinder was the first time a big company came out with one utilizing the familiar d20 system. It got exposure to lots of new people outside the Pathfinder and D&D world because it was the first time a product emerged that was essentially "Dungeons and Dragons in space". Similar to Skull & Shackles, which was the first time d20 players got to be pirates, so the first book got snatched up. The sci-fi offshoot of Pathfinder is a fairly unique product, so it reached outside of the core PF community. The playtest doesn't tout drastically new concepts or new content, just more reconfiguration of existing rules and reintroduction of long-standing mechanics. The concern is that PF 2.0 is just an attempt to compete with D&D 5e; which Paizo simply cannot do. Starfinder sold so well because there is no sci-fi version of D&D, only one of Pathfinder. But there already IS a 5e, so trying to make a new 5e is a very worrying decision.
Friendly reminder: PDFs exist and contrary to popular opinion, using them to run the game off a laptop or a tablet won't result in your soul imploding or the Grognard Commando bursting through the door to seize your "True Gamer Since 1948" t-shirt. Lol I am very aware of this. I own several pdf versions of books and ran the first book of Skull and Shackles out of one. But I honestly think people misunderstand the reasoning behind printed books around here. I don't believe people prefer material books over digital versions because of any elitist mindset or anything like that. Rather, I think the preference is almost nostalgic. Most introductions to fantasy happen through printed books and novels, and so the transition to a digital format is often jarring. Plus, many people gain a lot of satisfaction at seeing a printed book. Something about holding a bundle of pages in your hands and knowing there's a whole story contained in them is a rather wondrous feeling that simply doesn't transfer to a pdf. Again, I realize that Paizo's decision is based on good information and logic. The purpose of this post is not to refute that, but simply to offer a place for people to voice any shared desire for reprints/print-on-demand services in hopes that it may provide more information for Paizo to use in their decision making process.
I like the way you think, sir.
Oh, I don't think the forum has devolved into angry nonsense. I just really worry for people who say things like "I shouldn't have to wait for new releases." I seethe because I love. :) Well darn my socks and call me loved.
If I may be blunt? HAHAHAHAHAH. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH. AAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, GODS NO COMBAT MANEUVERS WERE NOT GREAT. After careful thought and consideration, I have decided that you may be blunt, yes. Also SF combat maneuvers are against KAC+8. PF CMD is often within 1-3 of their normal AC unless the character is specifically built to resist maneuvers.
They can only put so much in a core rulebook, printing costs money and raises the price of the book. PDFs yo. The print books ALL have low-quality binding anyway, if 500+ amazon reviews are to be believes.
Off the top of my head, the combat maneuver system was a great update to the grappling system, and I was excited to see how it would get further improved in SF. Turns out they just made grappling physically impossible for nearly all characters.
Hang on, which is it? Does Starfinder have more content than current-day Pathfinder? Or does it not stack up because its an unreasonable comparison? Kinda conflicting statements here. Also, at the risk of being replied to for the rest of my days, I'll say that I damn well BETTER compare the two. Paizo has spent over 15 years working with 3.5 and turning it into 3.75+++. So when they announce an entirely new game, I expect to see content that is better, richer, and more refined than 3.5 was at its peak. Because that's what they've been doing. They've been refining 3.5 for over a decade. And so for a system to come out with fewer base options, confusing mechanics, and an agonizingly tedious new combat system (starships), that tells me that they did nothing with all that experience. That's what Starfinder is to me. Sure, they listened to the community, but that's about all they did. None of the revolutions that happened in Pathfinder carried over. People keep saying that we should've expected this to be new from the ground up, but that's ludicrous. Paizo has had 15 solid years of messy trial and error that should have made this release show-stopping. Instead they seemed to have thrown out all that experience and wisdom and just started from scratch; which is why the best phrase I can think of to describe Starfinder is a beta. It is a game that is not done yet. It is a rough draft. There is so much potential and almost every iota of it is wasted in some way. And it drives me insane that I'm supposed to wait for more content to come out, because I shouldn't have to! I don't really care to pay additional money for add-ons that update the game into the product I originally expected. Alright, there. I've said my piece and I've made my peace. I'm about to be replied to within an inch of my life. But I'll gladly go down with this (star)ship. Come at me, you jackals!
Oh jeez 100+ posts and it keeps updating! And here I thought this thread would just be another drop in the ocean. I'm glad I was able to start what seems to be a (decently) cordial discussion amongst the community. I'll just say that my original post was really just meant to be an opinion post on the issues my group had with Starfinder. Some of them are arbitrary or petty (lack of 6,000 classes day one), some of them are actual issues that need addressing (confusing rule formats and poor rule book organization), and some of them are 100% pure preference of flavor (resolve points being loosely tied to a character trait). So for those of you who are reading my post as a review, I seem to have unintentionally misled you a bit. I blame the snappy title. For those of you who have used this thread to discuss opinions and issues you have with Starfinder and how they do or do not affect gameplay, keep going! Even if we end up coming full circle on issues, threads like these where we just spout opinions and ideas are important. Whether Paizo reads this or another GM does, thoughtful discussion makes the game better! And some of you just vehemently disagree with my post, and think that my group is just a bunch of stuck-up RPG snobs who sniff our noses at anything less than 1,500 feats. Well to you I say this; you come into MY thread, with your dirty peasant shoes and your 5e homebrews and you say such things to ME? ME?! Of all people?! ...Fair enough. All that aside, I seem to have started a debate worthy of a Thanksgiving dinner table in election season, so I'm going to do the sensible thing for now and just back away....very....slowly....
Honestly this is one of my personal favorite things about Pathfinder. Now I won't make any comparisons to Starfinder (I was only a player so I don't know how any enemy stats were done), but I LOVE that villains in Pathfinder APs are built from the ground up just like a PC. I always thought it was really cool just because the villains are held to the same rules as players, which adds a layer of immersion to it. Players can look at enemies and know that they could do the same thing if they wanted to. When I first got Runelords, I immediately flipped to the back (cuz what GM doesn't love a good BBEG?) and I took one look at the boss' stats and said "HOW?!". But after an hour of crunching numbers and looking up spells and magic items, it all added up. That was probably the moment I decided that Paizo is a pretty damn good company.
Well, hopefully I'm not coming across as "defensive." I am interested in clarifying where certain problems come from. The OP may have run into situations I haven't seen. You're fine Ceejay. As for the resource tracking, to be honest I listed just about everything that was an issue in the post. Players got confused and mixed up frequently on each turn just keeping track of all the meters they had. I played a Solarion, and each round I was keeping track of my attunement points, which affect which abilities I could use, my weapon's charge levels, personal shields, stamina points, hitpoints, and resolve. The last three wouldn't have been much of a problem however it did often become confusing for players when we needed to know what items/abilities restored which pool of points. Pathfinder does indeed have a lot of resource tracking, but it has never been on a round-by-round basis for every player, or even an action-by-action basis in some cases.
OP: Thanks, interesting points. I’m not sure why the responses are so defensive. Different folks can like different systems, and there’s no point in trying to argue taste. Haha, I was kind of wondering the same thing myself. This list really isn't "hey here are the bad parts of Starfinder" it really is what it says on the tin. We stopped playing yesterday and here's why. Although to be honest, this is a problem my circle of friends is currently trying to wade through as well. It's easy to forget that this is a game. And if you're not having fun, it's fine to stop and do something else.
Archetypes have not been replaced in Starfinder. There are guidelines to building them in the CRB along with the Forerunner and Phrenic Adept sample archetypes. This is news to me, but it looks like the list is pretty barren at the moment. We might have to come back later and see what options are available. Although I will say that the simple number of classes was a big part of the deal breaker for us. I am currently in the process of creating a homebrew rpg with the d20 system, and I honestly had to stop myself at 12 classes. I have trouble understanding how 7 starting classes is enough or how it could have been difficult to create more than that.
A lot of people have mentioned the fact that theme/class combinations lead to a lot of character customization potential. This is true, and I will admit that simply saying "there's only 7 classes" is misleading. However, in my post I mentioned archetypes for this reason. Archetypes seemed to have been replaced by themes in Starfinder, and I was pretty disheartened to see it. Archetypes offer a theme-like take on each class, but they are tailored to each individual class, allowing for less vaguely-useful bonuses, and more flavorful replacements for traditional class abilities. Along with this, I do realize that there is a great amount of character customization in Starfinder with class-centric choices. Operatives choose a specialization, Soldiers choose fighting styles, etc. However I wish to also point out that we have similar things in Pathfinder, but we still are able to add on top of it. Rogues choose talents, Clerics domains, Barbarians rage powers, etc. Now, I realize that Starfinder has only been out for a short period, and more content will add more choices. But themes were disheartening to me simply because they appeared to be vague, non-class-specific replacements for archetypes. And the character options inside classes themselves seemed to be small bonuses and minor edits meant to reinforce flavor, rather than the unique abilities and major changes of archetypes. In all honesty, if future books add new classes and class-modifying options of similar rigor as archetypes, then we will likely come back for a second look at the game. However for now, it is our deal breaker. Keep in mind that much of this is simply the opinion of my group. The fact that you can make a Solarion fit the same slot as an Envoy may be exciting to some, but for us it has the opposite effect.
As my post said, we were excited to play this since release, and got our hands on it shortly thereafter. We then spent several months trying our darndest to learn the system as we went. Honestly, that's all I'm going to say on your reply. You assumed that myself and my group were lazy and that I posted this thread with no understanding of what I was talking about. And so there is no conversation to be had between you and I. Good day.
Hello hello all! When Starfinder came out, my friends group was rather excited to play. Most of us prefer fantasy, but we enjoy some good Sci-Fi and a space-themed Pathfinder game seemed like the perfect route to go! We asked the resident Sci-Fi fan to GM, and he took to it with relish. He put 10+ hours of work into each session, and the characters were fun and had good chemistry. However, as of yesterday we stopped playing and are planning the switch back over to a Pathfinder AP. I thought I would share some of the reasons we stopped, as almost all of them are actual issues we had with the game, for anyone who's interested. 1.) Customization
2.) Mechanics
3.) Resolve Points
4.) Resource Tracking
Honestly, I could very much continue. This list is probably only 60-70% of what caused us to stop playing (don't get me started on ship combat). But I'm not here to do a full review of Starfinder. This list is just the top issues my group had with the game. I wrote it in the hope that maybe other people having these issues can see they're not alone, and to voice the issues that my tabletop friends and I had.
I had a homebrew game where death wasn't permanent and players got rewards if I unfairly killed them (e.g. rocks fall everyone dies). So everyone jumped at the chance to trigger ridiculous traps or overpowered monsters. Flash forward to the temple of the god of madness. Player is wandering around a library of forbidden knowledge and spots a book entitled "Everyone who reads this book dies." Immediately picks it up and opens it. Inside is a silvery paper mirror (like from a kids book) and above it are the words "Except You!" in colorful letters.
Plenty of good advice has been offered, but it seems like you've made up your mind and killed the campaign (yes YOU, not your brother) because one jerk did some stuff you and the others hated. This. Honestly, we've all had bad players. And we've all had players who derailed plot or screwed with npcs. I myself had a homebrew campaign that began with a party of criminals. Their options were to help resurrect an old god, or face the gallows. One character said he wouldn't do it, and then stated that he'd try to kill anyone who did. LITERALLY five minutes in and my plot's at a standstill. Bad players happen. But it really doesn't seem like that's the issue here. It seems like you aren't treating this as a setting. You're treating it as a story that you've already planned out. So when a player does something that messes with your plan, the whole thing is ruined, setting, story, plot and all. A setting is just that. A setting. It is a big world full of people and places and events that are all there for one reason: for the characters to interact with. If the entire setting is destroyed because of a character's interactions with it, then it wasn't a setting to begin with. It was a story. Someone earlier recommended that you may want to simply write a novel, and that's my advice as well. Pathfinder and D&D are collaborative storytelling. Every person at the table gets to tug the story in a different direction. If you throw out the entire thing because someone went in a direction you don't like, then you really shouldn't be doing collaborative storytelling. You should be writing novels and books where you always get to decide how characters interact with your world. Your brother did not "destroy" your world. You scrapped it. Your brother did not "forever change the story of the world" you simply had a story in mind, and expected the players to follow it. And honestly? As someone who has spent hundreds of hours building a campaign setting, you didn't build a setting. You built a very nice model that people could look at and enjoy, but never touch. You had a problem player, but he had a problem GM.
My first time DM'ing I created a magic item called the Gamble. Small baseball-sized orb filled with shifting black smoke and small flashed of electricity. Thing packed the punch of 5 wishes and a Deck of Many Things. Whenever a player threw one at an enemy, they rolled a d100 to determine the outcome. Three types of outcome: good, bad, neutral; with an equal chance for each (although 100=most good and 001=most bad) Every single number on that d100 had a totally unique outcome and frankly they were all absurd. Basically it was just a big creative exercise for me, but the players loved them. Some of the best/worst/most memorable outcomes:
TERRIBLE idea that is the exact opposite of balanced and should never be used in any sane game of DnD or Pathfinder. But a helluva lot of fun.
Hey guys! So I'm currently pondering some backstory for a new character, and I've recently been talking with my friends about the difficulties of giving a level one character a badass backstory. Just because it can be a bit odd for the headmaster of a prestigious wizard academy to have trouble casting Fireball. You know, normal character creation obstacles. But one route I'm really interested in is the fall from grace option. Character <i>was</i> level 20, but a terrible tragedy struck and all that power and experience has been stripped away. Thus, for that character, the process of leveling up is just re-learning/remembering their old strength! Which I think would be rad. So my question is, does anyone know of any mechanics already in game to accomplish such a thing? I've been browsing through cursed items and artifacts (thought for sure the harrow deck of many things would have something) and haven't turned up anything yet. Was just curious if anyone has spotted something I missed. Odds are I'll just have to talk to the GM about how to go about it. Maybe even design a spell that my character (a wizard) cast on himself to keep his power out of evil hands. Or something equally cliche haha!
UPDATE: I have begun the very lengthy process of making a pantheon of deities for my campaign setting. My favorite so far being the minor desert goddess Watiye, who was originally a Pharaoh but was raised to godhood when she approached the major god who had taken her country "under their guidance" and told them to leave. Basically think of Desna taking over Egypt and a Pharaoh saying "No thank you, we have our own gods to worship, so you may leave."
You have my interest, as I have been considering running a desert game also. In my case drawing heavily on Akashic Mysteries (from DSP). Nice! I just really hate watching the desert setting be wasted with terrible cliches or simply dumb story arcs. European-style settings get amazing stories like Council of Thieves, containing a city where the theater scene is equivalent to Game of Thrones politics, or like Iron Gods, where a fallen star changes all of history. But the moment we set foot in the desert, oops! there goes all the creative ideas! guess we'll just have to settle for evil pharaohs being resurrected by an equally evil cult! Who's the Big Bad Guy? Why, a mummy of course! Where is he encountered? A pyramid of course! That's not to say that Paizo's APs "The Mummy's Mask" and "Legacy of Fire" don't have their twists; but without wishing to spoil anything, let's just say that I was the absolute furthest thing from impressed with them. So I decided to write my own campaign. Want to hear the hook? Well here it is anyway! After generations of slavery, pillaging, and bloodshed, the gnoll horde that has been terrorizing the desert town of Rel-Ekhir has recently stopped all violence. Slaves were returned, caravans went unmolested, and bandits disappeared from the roads. Then came what was arguably the strangest part yet: a letter to the town's Sharif (mayor) arrived proposing a peace treaty between the gnolls and the human settlement. The PCs are either locals to Rel-Ekhir, or they are simply there for the celebration, as people from miles around have flocked to the sleepy village to see the first peaceful chord struck between gnolls and civilized races.
Currently (very slowly) creating a campaign setting, and subsequently a Desert-themed campaign. I got frustrated at the lack of deserty stuff in Paizo products that didn't devolve into desert cliches (ancient Pharaoh being resurrected, Genie wishes gone wrong, etc.) and I thought it would be more fun to just write one more customized to my players, so I'm writing a full on desert Adventure Path that has all the trappings of desert stories (a plot-important pharaoh, gnolls, sphinxes, oasis-towns) but with an interesting new story. |