# Weaponized Create Food and Water (and a physics lesson)

### Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

The following is impossible, but humor me.

Ever since I first started playing Pathfinder / D&D, I've had this dream to weaponize the spell Create Food and Water. I quickly realized that it's not possible, but for the sake of humor let's assume that there is some combination of feats, metamagic, and assorted class abilities that it's entirely possible to cast a spell with a ten minute catsing time in one combat round.

By the rules, in Pathfinder the spell creates "food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 24 hours". Because Pathfinder does not specify exactly how much food that is, we'll use the D&D 5e description of the spell that states that you create "45 pounds of food and 30 gallons of water". For simplicities sake, we'll only be using the food for now.

The text of the spell - in either rulebook - never states the form the food must take, only that it is enough for three people. For added fun let's say that all 45 pounds are a single item of food. For our purposes, we'll be using one giant 45 pound coconut.

A cleric or shaman of 5th level - the lowest possible level to cast create food and water - can cast the spell at a range of 35 feet according to the Pathfinder rules.

To recap, we now have one 45 pound coconut dropped from 35 feet in the air.

Now it's time for everyone's favorite part, poorly done physics!

For physics reasons, we can convert the 45 pounds of food into 20.4117 kilograms. We can also convert the 35 feet into 10.668 meters. Assuming the gravity of Golarion is the same as the gravity of Earth, we can use the standard -9.81 m/s^2 for acceleration. Because this is a freefall problem, we also know that our initial velocity is 0 meters per second. Now we have all the data we need to figure out how long it takes for the coconut to hit the ground (or an unsuspecting goblin).

The formula for figuring out the time it takes for a freefalling object to fall a specific distance is distance = initial velocity * time + 1/2 * acceleration * time^2 (d=vi*t+1/2a*t^2). We are solving for t.

Because our object is falling downward, our acceleration and distance are both negative. So a = -9.81 m/s^2 and d = -10.688 m.

Our equation look like this: -10.668 = 0 * t + .5 * -9.81 * t^2

We can cancel out the first t because it is being multiplied by zero: -10.668 = .5 * -9.81 * t^2
Next we divide our acceleration by 2: -10.668 = -4.905 * t^2
Now that we have our equation simplified, we can add 4.905t^2 to both sides: 4.905t^2 - 10.668 = 0
Add 10.668 to both sides: 4.905t^2 = 10.668
Now we can isolate the variable by dividing both sides by 4.905: t^2 = 2.175
Take the square root of both side to get our time: t = 1.475

It take approximately one and a half seconds (with some generous rounding) for our coconut to brain our unsuspecting goblin, but we still need to find out what our coconut's final velocity is.

Final velocity is a lot easier now that we have our time. The formula is vf = vi + a * t

Our formula is vf = 0 + -9.81 * 1.475. We don't even have to do any algebra! It's just multiplication! I won't be going through this one step by step, so just trust me when I say our final velocity is 14.46975 m/s.

Now finally getting back to Pathfinder, how much damage does a 45 pound coconut do when it hits a goblin at 14.5 meters per second?

(P.S. my physics and algebra are a little rusty, so I hope I did that all correctly)

Humour aside...

Core Rulebook, Magic section wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

... emphasis mine.

ProfPotts wrote:

Humour aside...

Core Rulebook, Magic section wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
... emphasis mine.

Yeah ok but what if it could though? What's the damage die? Is there a crit range? These are the questions OP is asking, I believe.

EDIT: Average MLB bat swing speed is 75-80 mph. Let's say a lvl 1 fighter is a little less skilled, and so her sword swings clock in at about 50 mph. That's 22 m/s with a 4 lb. longsword to do 1d8 damage (plus strength which arguably represents higher swing speed). So 45 lbs. of coconuts travelling around 15 m/s would hurt...a lot.

That's 11x the mass (technically weight, yes) hitting at about 80% of the same speed. So we can probably safely round the actual damage down to about 10x the damage. 1d8 has an actual average of 4.5. 7d12 has an average result of about 45.

So I would vote that 45 lbs. of coconuts traveling 14 m/s would probably do around 7d12 damage. Who needs fireball????

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Falling object damage is covered in the environment section of the Core book. Honestly, these 'creation spells to drop stuff on other stuff' ideas tend to rear their ugly heads on a pretty cyclic basis.

Now, you could train swallows to carry and drop coconuts via the bombardier animal trick... but only if you want your game to degenerate into a Python quote-fest... ;)

Palidian wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:

Humour aside...

Core Rulebook, Magic section wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
... emphasis mine.
Yeah ok but what if it could though? What's the damage die? Is there a crit range? These are the questions OP is asking, I believe.

Then it would follow the normal rules for falling objects.

By those rules, velocity has nothing to do with anything. Weight doesn't even matter. Size does. A 45 pound coconut likely isn't a Small object (which we know from 3.5 D&D is 2 to 4 feet), but that is the smallest object on the table. So 2d6 damage at most, but likely less. As coconuts aren't as hard as stone, the damage may be halved as well.

As the coconut is falling, not throw, there is no crit range (or attack roll at all). There is a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage.

If we go by the 3.5 D&D rules (which do account for weight and distance fallen), then it would deal no damage. A 45 pound object needs to fall at least 40 feet to deal any damage, and then it only deals 1d6 damage.

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Jeraa wrote:
Palidian wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:

Humour aside...

Core Rulebook, Magic section wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
... emphasis mine.
Yeah ok but what if it could though? What's the damage die? Is there a crit range? These are the questions OP is asking, I believe.

Then it would follow the normal rules for falling objects.

By those rules, velocity has nothing to do with anything. Weight doesn't even matter. Size does. A 45 pound coconut likely isn't a Small object (which we know from 3.5 D&D is 2 to 4 feet), but that is the smallest object on the table. So 2d6 damage at most, but likely less. As coconuts aren't as hard as stone, the damage may be halved as well.

As the coconut is falling, not throw, there is no crit range (or attack roll at all). There is a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage.

If we go by the 3.5 D&D rules (which do account for weight and distance fallen), then it would deal no damage. A 45 pound object needs to fall at least 40 feat to deal any damage, and then it only deals 1d6 damage.

I hear you, but what can we do to make this a death coconut?

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ProblyPoblano wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Palidian wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:

Humour aside...

Core Rulebook, Magic section wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
... emphasis mine.
Yeah ok but what if it could though? What's the damage die? Is there a crit range? These are the questions OP is asking, I believe.

Then it would follow the normal rules for falling objects.

By those rules, velocity has nothing to do with anything. Weight doesn't even matter. Size does. A 45 pound coconut likely isn't a Small object (which we know from 3.5 D&D is 2 to 4 feet), but that is the smallest object on the table. So 2d6 damage at most, but likely less. As coconuts aren't as hard as stone, the damage may be halved as well.

As the coconut is falling, not throw, there is no crit range (or attack roll at all). There is a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage.

If we go by the 3.5 D&D rules (which do account for weight and distance fallen), then it would deal no damage. A 45 pound object needs to fall at least 40 feat to deal any damage, and then it only deals 1d6 damage.

I hear you, but what can we do to make this a death coconut?

An idea by way of a Mr. Johnson:

Animate objects to make the coconut a creature. This means you can then use the Implant Bomb feat on the coconut to store an arbitrarily high number of damage dice given enough time. Reduce the animated coconut to 0 hp in vicinity of what you want to devastate.

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The Sideromancer wrote:

An idea by way of a Mr. Johnson:

Animate objects to make the coconut a creature. This means you can then use the Implant Bomb feat on the coconut to store an arbitrarily high number of damage dice given enough time. Reduce the animated coconut to 0 hp in vicinity of what you want to devastate.

I like the way you think, sir.

An idea by way of a Mr. Johnson:

Animate objects to make the coconut a creature. This means you can then use the Implant Bomb feat on the coconut to store an arbitrarily high number of damage dice given enough time. Reduce the animated coconut to 0 hp in vicinity of what you want to devastate.

So the animated coconut takes 3d6 falling damage, and assuming that that's enough damage to kill the coconut, the goblin would take the damage from the explosion plus the damage from being hit in the head by a 45 pound coconut?

I meant that to be a quote, but it didn't work... Sorry, I'm new to the forums...

Create 5 pound coconuts and use Quickened Mage Hand to nail people with railgun-fast coconuts?

Take Throw Anything and invest in an improvised weapon user that fights using conjured food like some sort of grocer clown?

Though if you want to be real, there is this: 1 day's food wouldn't weigh more than 3 pounds at most if Create Food and Water is creating what you need, so at most 15 pounds at your earliest CL. The water, though? You'll need at least 2 gallons a day when overland traveling. the 10 gallons of water you get at caster level 5 weigh roughly 83 Pounds.

Probly_Poblano wrote:
I quickly realized that it's not possible, but for the sake of humor let's assume that there is some combination of feats, metamagic, and assorted class abilities that it's entirely possible to cast a spell with a ten minute catsing time in one combat round.
...or maybe...

Avoron wrote:
Probly_Poblano wrote:
I quickly realized that it's not possible, but for the sake of humor let's assume that there is some combination of feats, metamagic, and assorted class abilities that it's entirely possible to cast a spell with a ten minute catsing time in one combat round.
...or maybe...

Well yes, most things are possible with wish.

I RIIIIIISE!

The damage from falling objects is pretty minimal in PF. We need other properties to make your shadow conjuration'd food dangerous.

You could probably replicate grease, but then you could just cast grease. The food is 'highly nourishing, if rather bland.' so we probably can't create 45 pounds of chilies, or rotten shark, or whatever. What's the most flammable bland-tasting food you can think of?

By the way, limited wish lets you throw Create Food and Water as a standard action (expensive, mind). And for really high level play miracle lets you do it for free :-).

I'll let others work on how it actually kills you :-)

avr wrote:

The damage from falling objects is pretty minimal in PF. We need other properties to make your shadow conjuration'd food dangerous.

You could probably replicate grease, but then you could just cast grease. The food is 'highly nourishing, if rather bland.' so we probably can't create 45 pounds of chilies, or rotten shark, or whatever. What's the most flammable bland-tasting food you can think of?

Probably some dessert with a lot of alcohol in it. One of those traditional English Chistmas puddings springs to mind.

ProblyPoblano wrote:
avr wrote:

The damage from falling objects is pretty minimal in PF. We need other properties to make your shadow conjuration'd food dangerous.

You could probably replicate grease, but then you could just cast grease. The food is 'highly nourishing, if rather bland.' so we probably can't create 45 pounds of chilies, or rotten shark, or whatever. What's the most flammable bland-tasting food you can think of?

Probably some dessert with a lot of alcohol in it. One of those traditional English Chistmas puddings springs to mind.

Isn't there a lot of alcohol in some fruitcakes?

For falling objects, I prefer a high-level druid flying above the bad guy as a songbird, then wildshaping into a brachiosaurus or something. But I like this too. To get around the "must appear on a surface" bit, just cast it from a conveniently-placed balcony a few stories up. Have it appear on the rail, and push it off.

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If the spell can only make bland food, and you're looking to turn it into a ball of fire, then you just need to look at English or Welsh cuisine. It's all so incredibly oily and fatty (and rather plain) that I wouldn't be surprised if it burned like napalm.

If only you could make really delicious stuff with it, I'd suggest a bananas foster flambe, force a Reflex save to not be on fire, maybe a somewhat higher save than normal; rum bursts into flame really easily, and it gets sticky.

Step one- Create Coconut
Step two- Teleport Object ( I believe there is a lesser spell of teleport but for objects only)
step three- Watch object try and hit target, hopefully they are not very agile or have slow reflexes.

Personally I tend to like shrinking boulders putting them into a bag, tie to summoned flying animal and as the animal flies over targets, end spell that shrunk the boulders.

Why not just conjure up something the creature has a food allergy to or drown it in the drink?

Indagare wrote:
Why not just conjure up something the creature has a food allergy to or drown it in the drink?

Well if you know the creature in question, certainly I suppose one could. But seems like a much better idea to just to create a trap and use the conjured food for the trap.

I can't think of any way to weaponize the creation of food, but I can think of a way to weaponize food that has been created.

A Monk of the Empty Hand can use anything as a weapon, including coconuts! And, they can deal any kind of damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) with an improvised weapon - so stab your foes to death with a coconut!

Even better with hamatula strike.

I can't think of any way to weaponize the creation of food, but I can think of a way to weaponize food that has been created.

A Monk of the Empty Hand can use anything as a weapon, including coconuts! And, they can deal any kind of damage (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) with an improvised weapon - so stab your foes to death with a coconut!

Even better with hamatula strike.

This is why I love complex games: because something like "impale them with a coconut" is possible.

 RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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My first thought was 45 pounds of edible coconut is not a 45 pound coconut - you can't really eat the outside. A rudimentary web search reveals that the average 2.3 pound coconut yields 1 pound of edible coconut meat. They are also 5 inches in diameter. Assuming spherical coconuts, that is a volume of 65.45 cubic inches, for an average density of .035 lbs/in^3 for a whole coconut. (This will be important later)

Since we want 45 pounds of edible coconut meat, that means our "super coconut" will needs to be 45*2.3 = 103.5 lbs, presuming a similar meat to shell ratio. Dividing by the density calculated above means we get a volume of 2945 cubic inches. This gives us a final radius of 8.9 inches, or a diameter of about ~18 inches or a foot and a half. That probably still only counts as a Tiny object so not really any falling damage per the rules.

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Something something something Peasant Railgun.

Pile of flour (that's pretty bland), gust of wind, spark cantrip = dust explosion?

Conjure it over in the enemies rowboat and hope that 10 lbs of oats (1 day/horse) + 8 lbs of water / per caster level (that is 18 lbs./caster level) is enough to swamp their rowboat.

Haywire build generator wrote:
This is why I love complex games: because something like "impale them with a coconut" is possible.

Idea for a build: go monk of the empty hand three, and multiclass barbarian until you can get the body bludgeon rage power. Though I'm not sure how the grapple mechanics work out with hamatula strike . . .