Read this if you're frustrated with Out of Print books


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


Hello hello everyone!

Like so many of you, I enjoy a good AP. So much so that I often read them just for fun, and my bank account would really appreciate it if I liked them a little less, but such is life.

And like so many of you, I find a deep satisfaction in flipping through actual, tangible pages when reading adventures. Which is why my heart sinks every time I look at exciting APs in the store, only to see "Out of Print".

I've read all the posts detailing why Paizo doesn't reprint APs and why it's bad for business etc. Printing costs money, and it's a gamble on the part of Paizo to print books when there's a chance only a handful of them will sell. I know, I know. Honestly that's kind of what makes the whole scenario so tragic; the reasoning behind it is sound.

However! The best way to fight business logic, is with business logic. So I'm writing this post in an attempt to help Paizo (and the community) see just how big the demand for reprints really is. If the reaction is a tiny number of very loud people, then we can see that Paizo is probably wise in their decision. But if this post explodes with comments, who knows? Maybe the mighty Vic Wertz will take notice.

Here's what I propose:

Leave a comment with the following info:

1. Books you would love, but are rare and/or overpriced elsewhere
2. Books you nearly bought, but chose not to because they are PDFs
3. Books you already have, but would buy again to have in print
4. Do you prefer to buy books one at a time, or as a full AP?
5. If old books were reprinted, would you end your subscription to new AP content? If so, why?
6. Do you buy books only when you intend to play them? If not, why?
7. Are there any books you'd like to buy as a gift for someone, but not as a PDF?
8. Realistically, how much do you think you'd want to spend on reprinted books?

Afterward, make a wishlist of all the OoP books that you would DEFINITELY buy if they were back in stock.

Be sure to be honest in your comments!

Again, this is not meant to beg Paizo to reprint old content. It's simply a quick poll to see how much our community is actually affected by the issue.

Also, if any Paizo employees see this and want to add better/more relevant questions to the list, please do!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Im currently trying to collect all aps in paper form so yea id love reprints our at the very least hardcover versions like curse of the crimson throne has, honestly my list would probably be to long


While the books being out of print is frustrating, I can understand that unfortunately it's an economic reality of the way Paizo run their print business. You might see more success asking for Print-On-Demand features, rather than reprints, since you'll need literally thousands of users all wanting the same book to justify a reprint.

I've been put off buying 5 different APs based on the fact that I can't get one of 6 books. 5 books of an AP is of pretty limited value to to me, which means the price of the 5 needs to hit rock bottom to justify the exhorbitant costs I'll have to pay to print and bind my own copy of book 6.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Friendly reminder: PDFs exist and contrary to popular opinion, using them to run the game off a laptop or a tablet won't result in your soul imploding or the Grognard Commando bursting through the door to seize your "True Gamer Since 1948" t-shirt.


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Im not convinced my soul wont implode, in all, joking aside yea i know i just prefer a paper copy, just my personal preference


Gorbacz wrote:
Friendly reminder: PDFs exist and contrary to popular opinion, using them to run the game off a laptop or a tablet won't result in your soul imploding or the Grognard Commando bursting through the door to seize your "True Gamer Since 1948" t-shirt.

Lol I am very aware of this. I own several pdf versions of books and ran the first book of Skull and Shackles out of one. But I honestly think people misunderstand the reasoning behind printed books around here. I don't believe people prefer material books over digital versions because of any elitist mindset or anything like that. Rather, I think the preference is almost nostalgic. Most introductions to fantasy happen through printed books and novels, and so the transition to a digital format is often jarring. Plus, many people gain a lot of satisfaction at seeing a printed book. Something about holding a bundle of pages in your hands and knowing there's a whole story contained in them is a rather wondrous feeling that simply doesn't transfer to a pdf.

Again, I realize that Paizo's decision is based on good information and logic. The purpose of this post is not to refute that, but simply to offer a place for people to voice any shared desire for reprints/print-on-demand services in hopes that it may provide more information for Paizo to use in their decision making process.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
Plus, many people gain a lot of satisfaction at seeing a printed book. Something about holding a bundle of pages in your hands and knowing there's a whole story contained in them is a rather wondrous feeling that simply doesn't transfer to a pdf.

I completely agree with this. I am lucky enough to have a complete set of Pathfinder AP volumes in hard copy and sometimes I just like looking at them on my shelf (well, shelves as somewhere around Hell's Rebels they spread to two shelves). Paizo does put out great quality printed products that are good to enjoy in physical form.

I would encourage you to browse the more obscure online retailers if you haven't already done so for copies that might have been left behind and be available for reasonable prices rather than the ridiculous prices that are charged by some Amazon Marketplace and E-bay sellers. I also agree that it is frustrating that Paizo does not reprint out of stock books even though I also understand their business reasons for not doing so.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Friendly reminder: PDFs exist and contrary to popular opinion, using them to run the game off a laptop or a tablet won't result in your soul imploding or the Grognard Commando bursting through the door to seize your "True Gamer Since 1948" t-shirt.

But...

a) You need to own a laptop or tablet in the first place (and one capable of running the PDFs promptly and easily). It's not a massively high bar to some people's finances, but it is to others.
b) Laptops are a large physical device that sits in front of you, creating a barrier between the GM and the players.
c) Laptops are less portable and less readable than books (tried reading off a tablet in the bath?)
d) Laptops also come packed with distractions like the internet and games right there on the same device.

Some people may prefer the functionality over the inconvenience (there are upsides, like being able to search text), but others find a book preferable.


Palidian wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Friendly reminder: PDFs exist and contrary to popular opinion, using them to run the game off a laptop or a tablet won't result in your soul imploding or the Grognard Commando bursting through the door to seize your "True Gamer Since 1948" t-shirt.

Lol I am very aware of this. I own several pdf versions of books and ran the first book of Skull and Shackles out of one. But I honestly think people misunderstand the reasoning behind printed books around here. I don't believe people prefer material books over digital versions because of any elitist mindset or anything like that. Rather, I think the preference is almost nostalgic. Most introductions to fantasy happen through printed books and novels, and so the transition to a digital format is often jarring. Plus, many people gain a lot of satisfaction at seeing a printed book. Something about holding a bundle of pages in your hands and knowing there's a whole story contained in them is a rather wondrous feeling that simply doesn't transfer to a pdf.

Again, I realize that Paizo's decision is based on good information and logic. The purpose of this post is not to refute that, but simply to offer a place for people to voice any shared desire for reprints/print-on-demand services in hopes that it may provide more information for Paizo to use in their decision making process.

I used to feel this way. Then I had to move and pack boxes full of game books. Then I had players show up with FAQs to support their characters and even their equipment requests. Then I had a new player ask for all the books he should read about a given class. Then I ran Starfinder from a tablet and that was the final nail in the nostalgia coffin.

I've come to appreciate that the single most important service Paizo provides is updated PDFs, and I wish they did it for more of their product lines. I only wish I had realized this back when the original Rise of the Runelords was released and I had become a subscriber from the start.

Print on demand would be far more useful to a wider audience than reprints, as I feel those that like books might be willing to replace some that get updates.


Personally I prefer a mix of printed and PDF, depending on whether I want to read casually and in context (printed) or whether I want to search automatically and copy & paste into my electronic notes (PDF). If some PDF pages turn out to be very interesting, I print them - maybe black and white, maybe with two pages on one, maybe only parts of the page.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I always find the PDF answer to miss the point. It's kind of like recommending a car to someone asking for a motorbike. For YOU there may be no significant difference, but to me a PDF isn't a replacement for a book.

I don't buy books solely for the information (just as I don't buy a motorbike solely to drive from point A to point B). I have literally thousands of PDFs and I've downloaded less than a dozen - barring PFS/SFS scenarios which I only download so I can get them printed out to read.


I like having hard copies too. Best buy up what you can, because with the advent of PF2, there won't be reprints.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm pretty sure this discussion was had at some point in humanity's history with "book" being the horse and "PDF" being the car.


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I would definitely have been anti-car.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Steve Geddes wrote:
I would definitely have been anti-car.

Cars are why we have global warming.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cars are why we can go more than 50 miles in a single day.

And must I remind everyone of snakes and saddle sores.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

It's not one-or-the-other.

PDFs and physical books each have their places. While they both convey the information, they are not identical: Each has strengths and weaknesses.

The one thing I'm frustrated about is that I only need one AP volume to complete my collection: Pathfinder #25: The Bastards of Erebus. It's long out-of-print and now a collectors' item. That one volume is currently listed at or around $150 on the secondary market... and I just can't bring myself to spend that much for it.

(Yes, I do have the PDF.)

That said... much as cars and horses provide very different riding experiences, books and PDFs aren't identical.

If you're looking for the most efficient mode of transportation along a paved road, then a car is going to win hands-down. But there are places you can go on horseback that you can't by car (e.g. down a forest trail); a horse generally has the sense not to walk off a cliff or into a ditch; horses provide the kind of emotional companionship that only an animal can.

Likewise, you can't beat PDFs for portability, search functions, text-to-speech, or and copy-and-paste. But they are not intimate objects that you physically hold. You won't lose access to a book if your tablet's battery dies. You can't take notes or doodle in the margins, or pencil in changes to a map. And they are not nearly as satisfying to read when curled up in your favorite armchair next to the fireplace on a winter day.

And you can't display your PDF collection on a bookshelf.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Would you be willing to pay a little extra, and/or or accept a reduction in print quality, in order to pick up these APs in physical form?

If you answered "Yes" to those questions, have you considered taking your PDF to a local print shop and getting your own physical copy made?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Would you be willing to pay a little extra, and/or or accept a reduction in print quality, in order to pick up these APs in physical form?

If you answered "Yes" to those questions, have you considered taking your PDF to a local print shop and getting your own physical copy made?

thats a pretty good idea honestly tho i don't know any print shops but its deffently a idea to look into


Haladir wrote:

It's not one-or-the-other.

Likewise, you can't beat PDFs for portability, search functions, text-to-speech, or and copy-and-paste. But they are not intimate objects that you physically hold. You won't lose access to a book if your tablet's battery dies.

The only time my tablet's battery has died is when I have intentionally drained it. This is a problem that is fading further and further into a non-issue as batteries and recharging options continue to improve.

Haladir wrote:
You can't take notes or doodle in the margins, or pencil in changes to a map.

There are programs available already that will allow you to do this. In fact, you can convert the .pdf to some other format and do just about anything with it.

Haladir wrote:


And they are not nearly as satisfying to read when curled up in your favorite armchair next to the fireplace on a winter day.

I have no problem at all curling up on my couch with my tablet to read. I can also work on character sheets, annotate adventures, prep maps, and tweak NPCs all at the same time. Satisfaction varies by person, and what one person finds problematic others have no issue with.

Haladir wrote:
And you can't display your PDF collection on a bookshelf.

Nor do you need to buy or build said bookshelves or dedicate an entire wall of a room to said collection.

All that said, there are a handful of older books I would pay a print on demand fee to get re-done with fixes. Sadly, some of those do not have actual Paizo FAQs/updated PDFs, so it would be pointless. It's just not economically feasible for Paizo to provide reprints. Anyone that has access to a local print shop might have a better chance getting a physical copy that way.

I am looking forward to my mostly digital future with PF2. I'll probably still be buying Pawns.


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Haladir wrote:
The one thing I'm frustrated about is that I only need one AP volume to complete my collection: Pathfinder #25: The Bastards of Erebus. It's long out-of-print and now a collectors' item. That one volume is currently listed at or around $150 on the secondary market... and I just can't bring myself to spend that much for it.

I have a copy you can have, if you’re still looking.

Grand Lodge

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Haladir wrote:
The one thing I'm frustrated about is that I only need one AP volume to complete my collection: Pathfinder #25: The Bastards of Erebus. It's long out-of-print and now a collectors' item. That one volume is currently listed at or around $150 on the secondary market... and I just can't bring myself to spend that much for it.
I have a copy you can have, if you’re still looking.

Steve is a nice guy.

-Skeld


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Haladir wrote:


And you can't display your PDF collection on a bookshelf.

No, but I can display my PDF collection on my 65" flatscreen on the wall.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now I'm seriously thinking about having APs printed out. Especially since that way, I can make it a single hardcover with nice sewn binding for books 1-6. Just gotta make sure to find a printer who doesn't ask too many questions about copyright issues. (Even though I think technically a single copy for own use is legal, but the printers might be hardasses about needing to prove it's for own use etc...)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I’ve had many things printed out. I find the trick is to find a small place - they’ll generally accept paizo’s FAQ on the topic, in my experience.

The FAQ wrote:

Can I print my PDF, or have it professionally printed?

You may print one copy of any Paizo PDF for personal use. Note that this only applies to products that list Paizo Publishing or Paizo Inc as the copyright holder—other publishers may have different policies; you'll need to contact them directly.

Some of the big chains ask for more proof than that.


I feel like showing them an official statement on the publisher's site ought to be good enough, but yes.

There are also quite a few services that can print something online and have it shipped straight to you. o wo~ Point is, if all you own is the PDFs, it's actually not that hard to get hard copies out of 'em. May not be quite the same as Paizo's copies, and I'd definitely look for a high-quality print service that won't, y'know, blur the stuff, but it's doable. XD And explicitly permitted.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Haladir wrote:
The one thing I'm frustrated about is that I only need one AP volume to complete my collection: Pathfinder #25: The Bastards of Erebus. It's long out-of-print and now a collectors' item. That one volume is currently listed at or around $150 on the secondary market... and I just can't bring myself to spend that much for it.
I have a copy you can have, if you’re still looking.

Wow!

I'm sending you a PM...

Shadow Lodge

I think making them available as Print on Demand would be lovely. I would very much like to have all the APs on my shelf some day.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Print on demand would be amazing


There won't be a print on demand. That's not how Paizo's business model works. They print a stack of books and try to sell them. If they made them available indefinitely, the scarcity of the books would drop and devalue them tremendously.

Buy what you're interested in before they're gone. That's the option.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Or do your own "Print On Demand" using your local print shop and your PDF.

There's really not much difference, and if you really really want those printed pages bound to look like a book, you can find businesses online that will put them into a hardcover binding.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I would imagine, for those with the collector bug that just like to see AP/books neatly arranged on a bookshelf, POD or equivalent is probably not going to scratch that itch.


Brother Fen wrote:

There won't be a print on demand. That's not how Paizo's business model works. They print a stack of books and try to sell them. If they made them available indefinitely, the scarcity of the books would drop and devalue them tremendously.

Buy what you're interested in before they're gone. That's the option.

I don't believe this is entirely accurate. If memory serves, Paizo has said that they don't have print on demand because they have yet to find a service/facility that meets their high standards. They definitely want to have PoD, they just haven't managed to find one they like or don't have the available funds to purchase the desired equipment.


Palidian wrote:
or don't have the available funds to purchase the desired equipment.

I find that claim unlikely considering what they make. They've put a lot of money into things like Pathfinder Online. While quality may be a bigger issue, I don't think the price of equipment is. The stuff certainly isn't cheap, but it's definitely within their grasp if they want it. Of course there would also be the added labor to run the thing, but that also should be minor in the grand scheme of things.


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I think the main issue standing in the way of PoD is quality.

It’s also likely to be quality of service as much as print quality. I have no insider knowledge, but based on Paizo’s past practise I’d expect them to partner with a third party PoD service rather than to buy the machinery and hire the people necessary to do it themselves. Whoever they choose would need to be a good fit alongside needing to print nice books.

As I say, I’m just guessing but it would surprise me if they launched into a new industry rather than finding an established printer to work with. Doesn’t seem to be their style.


Palidian wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:

There won't be a print on demand. That's not how Paizo's business model works. They print a stack of books and try to sell them. If they made them available indefinitely, the scarcity of the books would drop and devalue them tremendously.

Buy what you're interested in before they're gone. That's the option.

I don't believe this is entirely accurate. If memory serves, Paizo has said that they don't have print on demand because they have yet to find a service/facility that meets their high standards. They definitely want to have PoD, they just haven't managed to find one they like or don't have the available funds to purchase the desired equipment.

OK. Keep holding out for that then.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I order paperback print-on-demand books from Drivethru RPG every so often, and the production quality of these books is significantly lower than that of Paizo's print products... despite being at roughly the same price-point as Paizo products of similar page count.

I totally understand why Paizo would choose not to re-release products via POD, if production quality would suffer. They have a reputation to protect.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yah, PDFs do nothing for my bookshelf collection.

Kingmaker stands out as the one I've balked at everytime I look at buying, and it's the AP I'm most interested in.

I have very few of them since I never subscribed to APs and I've just prioritized them below the rest of my list (2nd edition and 1st edition modules mostly, plus 3.5 books), but I know there are a few APs that when it comes time to buy I'm gonna have to shell out big on the secondary market.

Not sure any of them will be more expensive than Blood Wars boxed set though. . .


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Personally, I'd love reprints of out-of-print books. I'm missing a book of Kingmaker, a book of Reign of Winter, and two books from Skull and Shackles, all of which are super expensive on Ebay/Amazon/etc. I've been keeping an eye out at every small game shop I set foot in, but so far, nothing.

I really doubt that it's actually going to happen, though. Probably will have to spring for those Ebay copies eventually.

I know PDFs are available, but I can't focus on reading things on a screen when it isn't for work/professional reasons. I read PDFs all day for work, so curling up with my laptop to read another is the opposite of relaxing for me. I usually find myself losing attention midway through and wandering around the internet instead. An AP where portions are sold out and PDF-only pretty much guarantees I'm not going to read it--and thus, not going to run it. I'd like to do those paths at some point, so it does bug me. I like having stuff available online for reference during game, but to me, a PDF isn't a substitute when it comes to actually reading the book.

Plus, I do like seeing them on the shelf. And I've moved multiple times. :-) (The Pathfinder stuff isn't even the majority of my book collection.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Keep looking on eBay for what you're missing, paying extra attention to standard auctions. I've found that you will nearly always win auctions at a price point well below the "market" rate on Amazon. Make a bid at the most you're willing to pay, and let the bots do the rest. You also may have more luck buying a "lot" that includes the issue you want.

For example, Burnt Offerings alone was going for bout $125 used on Amazon when I was looking. I found a standard 7-day auction on eBay for the six-volume OGL Runelords set, with six days to go and a current bid of $15. I bid $85, the most I was willing to pay for all six. The high bid then jumped to $33, meaning that I was the high bidder. Over the course of the week, I won with a final bid of $42.50, all done by the built-in automated bidding system. Had someone else bid more than my max, they could have it.

You will need to monitor eBay over time for your targeted items. It took me more than three years to fill in my AP back-issues at prices I was willing to pay. (I started subscribing with "Skull & Shackles".) Some was luck: My "Kingmaker" set was a private sale on the Paizo messageboards for less than cover price. Two of the priceier single issues of my "Jade Regent" set were gifts from a friend who had done some art for those books, and had received copies from Paizo as part of the compensation for the work. And I lucked out finding the complete "Carrion Crown" set in the children's book section of a Salvation Army thrift shop for $3 each. (I still scratch my head at that.)

The Moby-Dick of my collection had been The Bastards of Erebus. With Steve's generosity, I will finally have a complete set of APs!


Mummy's Mask - The Half Dead City starts at $120 online. Ridiculous!


tom_thiessen wrote:
Mummy's Mask - The Half Dead City starts at $120 online. Ridiculous!

I lucked out and found that book at my local gaming store.

It was the only Mummy's Mask one they had. :D

For what it's worth, if there was an out of print book from an AP I wanted to run I'd rather pay $50 for a print version than $20 for a PDF. (Assuming I could get the rest for close to regular price. Otherwise I'll buy the PDFs and get them printed somewhere.)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
tom_thiessen wrote:
Mummy's Mask - The Half Dead City starts at $120 online. Ridiculous!

There's one for US$59.95 at Amazon.


I just filled in my Kingmaker collection, so I'm moving on to Skull & Shackles and Reign of Winter next. I don't want those two APs to escape my grasp.

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