Haze''s page

And obviously all fights start with surprise attacks on round one, defensive casting isn't a thing, quickened spells don't exist, you can't cast divination spells ahead of time to see what you are going to be fighting and when, summoning spells for scouting are never used, and Planar Allies always stay at home to not help out.

Clerics are only walking bandaids!

Haze' wrote:

Characters get 10 GENERAL feats.

Fighters get 11 COMBAT feats.
Rangers get 6 feats + skip pre reqs.
Barbs get 10 Rage Powers. Note: Rage Powers scale. Combat feats don't. Rage powers are like feats, squared.
Even Wizards get 5 feats.

Those 11 Combat feats of a fighter are meant to compare to the class features of every other class.
Your character's general feats compare to the general feats of every other class, so are excluded from this comparison.

And feats do NOT measure up. Just look at the closest equivalent...rage powers. Rage powers scale. Scaling Nat AC. Scaling Damage bonuses. Scaling AC vs missiles. Scaling dodge AC. Scaling Skill bonuses. Scale, scale, scale.
For combat feats to scale...you have to take ANOTHER FEAT? right.

The advanced training and x Mastery feats basically blatantly made up what fighters should have had all along...powerful feats that required fighter class abilities as pre reqs. Many of them scale, and also start out powerfully.

That's what you should be aiming for. Not more niche superspecialized feats in feat trees that fighters do NOT have the feats to spare to take.

Are you thinking something like turning the feat chain she proposed into 1 or 2 advanced armor/weapon training options that scale as they gain levels or scale off of the AWT bonus? Something that would allow the same flavor of fighter, w/o using up the feats.

I wouldn't use the AWT 'mechanic', because replacing WT options or 'only 1/5 levels' is a STUPID mechanic, thank you, for a feat. Rage Powers are 1/2 levels, at least as strong as AWT, and there's a General Feat so you can take MORE of them.

Just, ugh.

Just make them combat feats that have pre-reqs of WT, AT, or Bravery. Then make them scale and be strong, like Rage Powers. That's ALL you have to do. If you want to call them 'Technique' feats, or 'Martial' feats, or somesuch, that's fine, too.

Fights only last short periods of time. How is that bad? We aren't playing 20 hour battles, here.

And if you've got spell slots, you can do it for multiple fights.

But, really, getting into Melee is an emergency situation. The cleric has buffs, summons and crowd control he can deploy before it comes to that. You seem to be fixated on 'uber melee, all the time', when between the above, and the ability to melee if needed, the cleric can basically replace the group melee with very little problem.

Tier 1 all the way.

aye, there's nothing saying they can do every role at any moment. But they can do ANY role, and do it well, with some planning. That's the difference.

And yeah, that was a 3.5 post, simply because Persistent Spell, Divine MM and Nightstick allowed the cleric to completely take over the melee role ALL THE TIME...and then still be available to do everything else. There was literally nothing better for a cleric to do with their feats. Feats were just not that important for a cleric.

The fact the Paizo cleric can't do the melee role 24/7 is not to say the cleric can't do the melee role quite well for short periods of time...like, the time of a 1-2 min/level buff. And if we start adding in Domain smite/attacks, which can be VERY strong, clerics can certainly wreck face if they want to.

Meh. Too much investment. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, maybe Heroism, maybe a domain smite, Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make half price gear, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Air walk, add Power Attack and maybe a domain weapon focus.
There, you've got a combat cleric.

Oh, I've got HOW MANY FEATS LEFT? well, then, do what Hyper is saying.

First 3e character: Feisto, halfling Rogue 6/f2/barb2/r1/Wiz1. Can you tell I took the levels organically?

The Feat, Versatile Spontaneity, is the other one, Hyper.

You're doing it again. You're trying to make it so they are better then optimized melee-only characters. They have only to do the job if they need to do it...and if they have to, they can do it very well.

You're probably also thinking that a cleric MUST be built with 12 Str and 18 Wis to be effective. There's a lot of optimizers who will tell you otherwise. Building a battle cleric is not hard at all, and they usually start with a 14 Wis or so, and 16 Str. Then you start adding in domain powers and it can get really sick, really fast.

And the only feat they need to take is power attack. The rest is just spells and gear.

You do realize that most non-fighter melees don't actually take a ton of combat feats, right? It's more general feats that shore up defenses, and utility abilities. Heck, Barbs generally grab more rage powers.

And hey, Orfamay, for Sorcs, at least, the ability to take a spellbook and go spell diving as needed is totally possible by feats and magic items now. A sorc who takes advantage of them is Tier 1 all the way.

I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic. Being able to be awesome at melee AND cast spells is one of the hallmarks of a cleric, and one of the reasons why they are Tier 1.

Haze, action economy is what rains on that little parade. Sure, the cleric can possibly heal and restore s$&# that comes his way. But if he does, he isn't doing anything else, thus giving the enemy another round to throw s!&! his way again. Also, cure wounds spells are not that powerful. You will only manage that at very low levels. Heal is nice, of course, and changes the picture a bit. Just as has been said in EVERY. SINGLE. DISCUSSION. about in-combat healing on these boards.

It's an option mages don't have.

You can do it in combat, or out of combat as needed.
It gives you more hit points. That's all that's critical. Who cares if its not a combat spell? Teleport w/o error technically isn't a combat spell. A spell to give +10 to a craft check isn't a combat spell. Major Creation isn't a combat spell.

But HEALING and Recovery Options are very powerful effects that definitely has an impact on combat. If you don't believe me, run an AP with 4 fighters who have no healing, no recovery options. Then run it with 4 clerics.

4 clerics will curbstomp any AP you can name. Every single encounter is going to play vastly different because of the options the clerics have, and the fighter doesn't. Even a wizard party is going to have issues with recovery options that a cleric just handwaves away. At the very least, for wizards or fighters, its skill points spent on UMD and money spent on recovery items/scrolls/wands that a cleric doesn't have to spend.

Every whack on a zombie is a whack you aren't taking.

Zombies can be buffed, even Hasted. Numbers are a power all their own.
It's a low level solution to a low level problem.

And as you level, you can create stronger, tougher undead. The discrepancy gets bigger, instead of smaller. As someone pointed out, at level 5 a cleric can Animate a 10HD, 75 HP hydra, which has 10 attacks.

250 gp.

Meleeing better than a wizard??? Seriously? Well, okay. Clerics melee better than a wizard. You got me there. =)

Clerics healing again doesn't make the cleric powerful. It makes them a walking band-aid.

Clerics having a broader array of defensive spells than a wizard? I do believe I will have to object to that. Shield, mirror image, blur, globe of invulnerability, invisibility, anti-magic field, mind blank... just off the top of my mind. What do clerics get? Sanctuary? Resist energy? Yeah, I believe I will take the wizard defenses any day.

If you want to make a DD wizard, yes, you will optimize your save DC. But let's say you optimize the s!$% out of a cleric for DD. Do you even get any good at it? How wicked can you make that fireball, going all-out with archetypes, feats, items?

Being able to heal yourself and get rid of conditions gives you staying power. When the rest of the party is sucking HP and down with curses and disease, you're still standing tall.

That is POWER. It is the main reason why fighters can't 'go all day'. They don't have the staying power.

You're stuck in the fact that clerics can 'give healing away.' Well, just imagine if the cleric ONLY HEALED THEMSELVES.
Yeah.
And consider how much staying power that is. More hit points then anybody else for the long haul is POWER, make no mistake about it.

Okay sure. Hit on something till it stops moving. Without the feats put in, you will be doing 1d8+2 or something equally inspiring. Not to mention your BAB will lag behind dangerously.

So, other options, since a cleric who hasn't focused her build isn't going to make a terribly inspiring (or long-lived) combatant.

You will have spells to deal with undead. What would you suggest to fight giants?

Command, Greater Command, Hold Person, Murderous Command, Enthrall, Bestow Curse, Quest, antilife shell, Plane Shift, Holy Word, repulsion, waves of ecstasy, OVerwhleming Prescence, Symbols, M Summonings, Planar Ally, Gate.

3.5 cleric is an entirely different beastie. We are talking about PF clerics here.

BAB is medium. HD is d8, also medium. Weapon proficiencies are Simple + deity weapon. Armor is medium armor and shield. I confess I am not exactly seeing what there is here to shout about.

The spell list is good, very good. However, you are still going to be a prepared caster. That means that unless you GET that 15 minutes to get a new spell, you're out of luck. And each empty slot carried is one you can't use in a pinch. Sure, one or a few, but it's not going to be many slots unless you want to lose serious power in combat. Also: The cleric spell list is NOT actually that powerful (again, considering combat mainly). Compare the list to the wizard list. Find spells that do not cure people of something bad (admittedly cleric territory), and see if the wizard list doesn't have something easier, more versatile, or lower level. If you want to play a cleric blaster, you will have a difficult time. Most cleric save or suck spells require touch, meaning you will again have to get up close and personal - I believe OotS made a joke about the ULTIMATE BATTLE OF THE CLERICS once.

There are Direct Damage cleric builds. Wizards can do it better...so what? We aren't saying clerics are the best at everything.

The 'battle of clerics' from OoTS was amusing because it was all Save or Die. Against fort and will, the two strong saves of the cleric. Clerics dd vs reflex saves is just Cured away.

Save or dies delivered as Touch Spells isn't a problem for clerics, where it would be for a wizard. They'll hit, and if the enemy saves, well, that's why the cleric has armor and can heal themselves.

The cleric melees better then a wizard build. You don't mention that.
The cleric heals and dishes out recovery better then a wizard ever will. You don't mention that.
The cleric has a broader array of defensive spells then a wizard does. You don't mention that.
If you want to build a DD cleric, YOU CAN DO IT. You don't mention that. Keep in mind core wizards not built for DD suck at it, too. You either build for DD or its used for minion clearing, for basically ALL classes.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

To be fair, you need to read those with a certain amount of skepticism, since they're about the 3.5 cleric and not the Pathfinder cleric.

It's not the specifics, it's the methodology.

.... which wasn't clear from your earlier post. CoDzilla took a significant and badly needed hit from the nerf bat in the transition. While I agree that a cleric is still tier 1, that's a decision that needs re-evaluation with all the 3.5 DMM tricks and such. By word count, most of the post you cited is no longer relevant, and unless your edition-fu is strong, it's not even obvious which 80% to cut.

CoDzilla is based on core spells. Granted, some of them have much shorter durations now. But the key spells that make CoDzilla what it is aren't much changed in power or utility.

CoDzilla is alive and well. It just doesn't have Nightstick Powered Persistent Metamagic Divine Favor and Divine Power going all the time, now.

Characters get 10 GENERAL feats.

Fighters get 11 COMBAT feats.
Rangers get 6 feats + skip pre reqs.
Barbs get 10 Rage Powers. Note: Rage Powers scale. Combat feats don't. Rage powers are like feats, squared.
Even Wizards get 5 feats.

Those 11 Combat feats of a fighter are meant to compare to the class features of every other class.
Your character's general feats compare to the general feats of every other class, so are excluded from this comparison.

And feats do NOT measure up. Just look at the closest equivalent...rage powers. Rage powers scale. Scaling Nat AC. Scaling Damage bonuses. Scaling AC vs missiles. Scaling dodge AC. Scaling Skill bonuses. Scale, scale, scale.
For combat feats to scale...you have to take ANOTHER FEAT? right.

The advanced training and x Mastery feats basically blatantly made up what fighters should have had all along...powerful feats that required fighter class abilities as pre reqs. Many of them scale, and also start out powerfully.

That's what you should be aiming for. Not more niche superspecialized feats in feat trees that fighters do NOT have the feats to spare to take.

A generalist wizard doesn't specialize, either, and is still Tier 1. It's all in the spell list, baby.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.

Where would the modern cleric end up?

Well, it's not going to be able to do absolutely everything - which by definition includes dominating encounters. It should be at least equal to the martials, even heavily specialized ones. Tier 1 is out.

Tier 2 means you need to focus sharply to be able to do what tier 1 can. That still includes dominating encounters - so out.

Tier 3 is where cleric ends up. They are capable of doing all things, but not very well in areas they did not specialize in.

Tier 4 is obviously too low.

So, they can do condition removal, healing, buffing, creating food and water, resurrecting dead party members, and you know what? None of that makes the CLERIC powerful. It makes the cleric an ace walking band-aid for everyone else. If you judge the cleric, judge it by what the cleric can do for itself. You wouldn't judge the barbarian by how many interesting herbs it can find for making alchemist bombs.

I'm sorry, Sissyl, but I have to laugh a little here.

The Cleric and the Druid are what drove the creation of Tier 1 in the first place. And you're making them Tier THREE.
There is virtually no role the cleric and druid can't fill with EXCELLENCE, given just a day or two to prepare. They are the poster children of Tier 1.

Heh.

I'd change a couple of things, Cheburn.

1 - AWT at 10th level - Abundant Tactics. Increases your Warrior Spirit and Fly by 4 uses/day.

Smash from the Air - Cut from the air for siege size missiles and ranged magical attacks.

Advanced Armor Training - Master Armorer - Make your own Armor, craft checks use your BAB. Adds skills and craft armor in one feat...half price armor. Pays for itself when you increase your buckler and armor to +3 for barely more then the cost to make them +2.

Consider Telekinetic Item Mastery at 10+ if you can get an item with a 4th level transmutation spell in the reqs. Combat feat, you'll have 5 uses a day with abundant tactics...manipulate objects, ranged attack feat, retrieve objects, or extra movement bonus, as desired. VERY useful.

Where's a mystic fighter get double weapon training with spears from?
How'd you get Warrior Spirit +6 otherwise, unless they applied Gloves/Duelist twice?

Traits: Defender of the society: +1 AC for the same armor you took your Armor Mastery in.
Inquisitive: +2 to UMD and UMD a class skill (for your Item Mastery feats and wands...)

FCB: Either skills or HP work.

as a half-orc, fate's favored and sacred tattoo is another great combo.