GM 1990 wrote:
I wouldn't use the AWT 'mechanic', because replacing WT options or 'only 1/5 levels' is a STUPID mechanic, thank you, for a feat. Rage Powers are 1/2 levels, at least as strong as AWT, and there's a General Feat so you can take MORE of them.
Just make them combat feats that have pre-reqs of WT, AT, or Bravery. Then make them scale and be strong, like Rage Powers. That's ALL you have to do. If you want to call them 'Technique' feats, or 'Martial' feats, or somesuch, that's fine, too.
Fights only last short periods of time. How is that bad? We aren't playing 20 hour battles, here.
And if you've got spell slots, you can do it for multiple fights.
But, really, getting into Melee is an emergency situation. The cleric has buffs, summons and crowd control he can deploy before it comes to that. You seem to be fixated on 'uber melee, all the time', when between the above, and the ability to melee if needed, the cleric can basically replace the group melee with very little problem.
Tier 1 all the way.
aye, there's nothing saying they can do every role at any moment. But they can do ANY role, and do it well, with some planning. That's the difference.
And yeah, that was a 3.5 post, simply because Persistent Spell, Divine MM and Nightstick allowed the cleric to completely take over the melee role ALL THE TIME...and then still be available to do everything else. There was literally nothing better for a cleric to do with their feats. Feats were just not that important for a cleric.
The fact the Paizo cleric can't do the melee role 24/7 is not to say the cleric can't do the melee role quite well for short periods of time...like, the time of a 1-2 min/level buff. And if we start adding in Domain smite/attacks, which can be VERY strong, clerics can certainly wreck face if they want to.
Meh. Too much investment. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, maybe Heroism, maybe a domain smite, Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make half price gear, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Air walk, add Power Attack and maybe a domain weapon focus.
Oh, I've got HOW MANY FEATS LEFT? well, then, do what Hyper is saying.
You're doing it again. You're trying to make it so they are better then optimized melee-only characters. They have only to do the job if they need to do it...and if they have to, they can do it very well.
You're probably also thinking that a cleric MUST be built with 12 Str and 18 Wis to be effective. There's a lot of optimizers who will tell you otherwise. Building a battle cleric is not hard at all, and they usually start with a 14 Wis or so, and 16 Str. Then you start adding in domain powers and it can get really sick, really fast.
And the only feat they need to take is power attack. The rest is just spells and gear.
You do realize that most non-fighter melees don't actually take a ton of combat feats, right? It's more general feats that shore up defenses, and utility abilities. Heck, Barbs generally grab more rage powers.
Haze, action economy is what rains on that little parade. Sure, the cleric can possibly heal and restore s$&# that comes his way. But if he does, he isn't doing anything else, thus giving the enemy another round to throw s!&! his way again. Also, cure wounds spells are not that powerful. You will only manage that at very low levels. Heal is nice, of course, and changes the picture a bit. Just as has been said in EVERY. SINGLE. DISCUSSION. about in-combat healing on these boards.
It's an option mages don't have.
You can do it in combat, or out of combat as needed.
But HEALING and Recovery Options are very powerful effects that definitely has an impact on combat. If you don't believe me, run an AP with 4 fighters who have no healing, no recovery options. Then run it with 4 clerics.
4 clerics will curbstomp any AP you can name. Every single encounter is going to play vastly different because of the options the clerics have, and the fighter doesn't. Even a wizard party is going to have issues with recovery options that a cleric just handwaves away. At the very least, for wizards or fighters, its skill points spent on UMD and money spent on recovery items/scrolls/wands that a cleric doesn't have to spend.
Every whack on a zombie is a whack you aren't taking.
Zombies can be buffed, even Hasted. Numbers are a power all their own.
And as you level, you can create stronger, tougher undead. The discrepancy gets bigger, instead of smaller. As someone pointed out, at level 5 a cleric can Animate a 10HD, 75 HP hydra, which has 10 attacks.
Being able to heal yourself and get rid of conditions gives you staying power. When the rest of the party is sucking HP and down with curses and disease, you're still standing tall.
That is POWER. It is the main reason why fighters can't 'go all day'. They don't have the staying power.
You're stuck in the fact that clerics can 'give healing away.' Well, just imagine if the cleric ONLY HEALED THEMSELVES.
Command, Greater Command, Hold Person, Murderous Command, Enthrall, Bestow Curse, Quest, antilife shell, Plane Shift, Holy Word, repulsion, waves of ecstasy, OVerwhleming Prescence, Symbols, M Summonings, Planar Ally, Gate.
There are Direct Damage cleric builds. Wizards can do it better...so what? We aren't saying clerics are the best at everything.at high levels, stormbolts is a KILLER direct damage spell.
Implosion is utterly terrifying if done right.
The 'battle of clerics' from OoTS was amusing because it was all Save or Die. Against fort and will, the two strong saves of the cleric. Clerics dd vs reflex saves is just Cured away.
Save or dies delivered as Touch Spells isn't a problem for clerics, where it would be for a wizard. They'll hit, and if the enemy saves, well, that's why the cleric has armor and can heal themselves.
The cleric melees better then a wizard build. You don't mention that.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
CoDzilla is based on core spells. Granted, some of them have much shorter durations now. But the key spells that make CoDzilla what it is aren't much changed in power or utility.
CoDzilla is alive and well. It just doesn't have Nightstick Powered Persistent Metamagic Divine Favor and Divine Power going all the time, now.
Characters get 10 GENERAL feats.
Fighters get 11 COMBAT feats.
Those 11 Combat feats of a fighter are meant to compare to the class features of every other class.
And feats do NOT measure up. Just look at the closest equivalent...rage powers. Rage powers scale. Scaling Nat AC. Scaling Damage bonuses. Scaling AC vs missiles. Scaling dodge AC. Scaling Skill bonuses. Scale, scale, scale.
The advanced training and x Mastery feats basically blatantly made up what fighters should have had all along...powerful feats that required fighter class abilities as pre reqs. Many of them scale, and also start out powerfully.
That's what you should be aiming for. Not more niche superspecialized feats in feat trees that fighters do NOT have the feats to spare to take.
I'm sorry, Sissyl, but I have to laugh a little here.
The Cleric and the Druid are what drove the creation of Tier 1 in the first place. And you're making them Tier THREE.
I'd change a couple of things, Cheburn.
1 - AWT at 10th level - Abundant Tactics. Increases your Warrior Spirit and Fly by 4 uses/day.
Smash from the Air - Cut from the air for siege size missiles and ranged magical attacks.
Advanced Armor Training - Master Armorer - Make your own Armor, craft checks use your BAB. Adds skills and craft armor in one feat...half price armor. Pays for itself when you increase your buckler and armor to +3 for barely more then the cost to make them +2.
Consider Telekinetic Item Mastery at 10+ if you can get an item with a 4th level transmutation spell in the reqs. Combat feat, you'll have 5 uses a day with abundant tactics...manipulate objects, ranged attack feat, retrieve objects, or extra movement bonus, as desired. VERY useful.
Where's a mystic fighter get double weapon training with spears from?
Traits: Defender of the society: +1 AC for the same armor you took your Armor Mastery in.
FCB: Either skills or HP work.
as a half-orc, fate's favored and sacred tattoo is another great combo.