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HK

I think some of your post might have been sort-of tongue-in-cheek but I thought I'd actually answer some of your complaints over the original movie trilogy...
The Leah-Luke twin "surprise" was indeed contrived. Lucas did NOT originally plan for them to be twins, although he's been vague over issues whether they were intended to be siblings or not. Original collective cards are other "canon" released back in the 70s had Luke and Leah two years apart!
The tie-fighters in the asteroid field are not dropping "bombs", which is why they don't seem to be having much effect. They're flares. They are trying to see down in the holes to reveal the hiding Falcon.
There is never an assertion that the mynochs are *eating* the power cables or gaining any sustinence from them whatsoever, only that they are "chewing" on them. Big difference. When I was a kid I had a pet rabbit that we couldn't keep from chewing on power cords (silly rabbit!!) and although I don't claim to understand its motivations, it certainly wasn't trying to gain nutrition. I've had friends who owned cats that displayed the same behavior.

There are indeed a lot of inconsistencies and just poor design/writing/acting/conception in the original trilogy, but none of it kept them from being great. The problem with the more recent series (apart from being faced with inflated expectations they really never had a prayer of meeting), is that in our current culture and age of technology most fans expected a lot better from Lucas and his associates who, thirty years ago, created an entire genre and reshaped the movie-making process in unfathomable ways. Personally, I was appalled by how poorly-written and contridictory the screenplays were and felt that much more attention was given to special effects (which to today's audience, versus 1976 when no such things even existed, are nice but almost secondary to a "good" movie) and so little concern for what is almost considered "inspired scripture" plot of an interesting mythical storyline with compelling...

Here here! I concede on all your points. I agree that the biggest failure of the new films is that they failed to meet expectations. It's a shame, really, that these expectations actually prevent people from enjoying the films.

And as far as the mynochs and TIE Bombers go, I admit that my assumptions were based off of Expanded Universe material where it explicitly says these things. But the Expanded Universe is hardly canon, so my bad. (Although... when the flares hit they sure sound like bombs...)

But in the end, I still have to contend that most criticism that is being applied to today's trilogy can be applied, in earnest, to the original, therefore it is further my contention that most critics are longtime Star Wars fans whose real complaints are that the Star Wars films did not mature along with them (Episode III not-withstanding) and less about the film's merits (or lack thereof). I have a strong suspicion that the children who are growing up with this trilogy will love it just as strongly as we love the original; and in 20 or so years when an aged Lucas decides to make Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, there will be a similar controversy taking up space on some messageboard in some obscure corner of the web.

Thought this was about the role playing game.

Well nobody posted on this thing since Monday until I came along so I'm sure whoever had something to say already said it.

Just because some of us prefer an older system, it doesn't mean we hate d20 or the "Establishment". It is an opinion. A question was asked and we responded.

And a questions was asked and I responded. Besides, I clearly stated that I was talking about some people over on the Wizards boards who made it very clear that they didn't like the new system because it was put out by Wizards.

As for the movies, c'mon, did you really watch them because the acting was good? Because the story was great? Any of them? The movies are awesome, in spite of their own shortcomings.

I know, that's exactly my point! Star Wars rocks! INCLUDING THE NEW ONES! I actually have a whole new respect for the saga as a whole because of the new ones; I always loved the old ones, but I couldn't imagine the Star Wars Saga without the new trilogy. It just wouldn't feel complete...

Ah! I see what you're saying now.

Okay, well look at this way... Obi Wan knows how effective that move can be because, as you said, it's his move! So... what is that move, exactly? A leap, a flip, a landing behind the opponent, a spin with a slice from the good 'ol lightsaber, roll credits.

Well, it's Obi Wan's move. He knows what Anakin is about to do. He feebly warns Anaking about it, saying, "I have the high ground!" It's feeble, but he really doesn't want to hurt Anakin. It's apparent he's going to anyway, and again Obi Wan warns him, "Don't try it!" Obi Wan knows something Anakin doesn't...

You see, Obi Wan has thought about that battle quite a bit over the years, and he often asked himself, "How could Darth Maul have countered my surprise attack? What would I have done?"

His solution? Interrupt the attack! Slice the opponent as he sails over you, before he has a chance to land behind you.

So Obi Wan executes his own counter to his own move, and Anakin is short three limbs.

HK, while I agree that parroting someone without actually understanding what it is you are saying is the height of mob mentality it doesn't always follow that the message is wrong. The original (first release) trilogy (taken as a whole) is better than the new one.

Ah ha! And that, my great green friend, is precisely the point! It does not follow that just because the new trilogy is not equal to the original that it is bad. Unfortunately, most people see the new trilogy as competition rather than a complement, which causes them to exaggerate the new trilogy's shortcomings and inflate the artistic relevance of the original.

Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplays for "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi". George Lucus wrote "A New Hope" and while it is a fine adventure-packed film the dialogue is a bit of a mouthful and at times doesn't sound natural.

I felt that this was an ongoing theme throughout all six films, though it's never as bad as it is in any Star Trek episode. As far as A New Hope being "good," let's examine some elements that require a critical eye:

- Solo and Skywalker have a penchant for showing off their chests. That coupled with everyone's hairdo and mutton chops makes this movie a "period piece"-- or more specifically, a 70's piece.

- The Cantina scene, often hailed as the most memorable Star Wars scene of all time, is laughable. It looks like the conceptual designers flipped open a zoology book and crossbred the photos with humans. You got something that looks like a bat, a hammerhead shark, a walrus... and what is that over there, is that Satan?!

- The entire movie lacks scope. They are suppose to be flying from planet to planet across a broad galaxy (far, far away, mind you) and yet every scene is confined to a constricted stage set or you are given a broad view of a less than spectacular desert, and later a jungle. In fact, this is true for all three movies.

- As far as all three movies are concerned, there are so many internal inconsistencies that I could just cry. For example, why is that in one scene a direct hit from a blaster creates a flash of fire but only a dime sized hole while in others it knocks entire sections of a wall down?

- In Empire, they can't get through the armor of the AT-ATs, yet when they knock one down they can suddenly blow it up with a couple shots from the snowspeeder?!

- Why is Leia revealed as Luke's twin in Jedi? It feels contrived (even though it wasn't). The scene feels designed to shock the audience. That entire dialogue with Obi Wan is flat. In fact, just about every scene with Luke Skywalker is flat. You claim that Lucas has gone beyond "light hearted adventure" in the new trilogy, yet can you name a single scene written for Luke Skywalker that isn't melodramatic? You talk about bad acting, well it's no wonder why Mark Hammil has been doing nothing but voice acting all of these years.

- The lightsaber battles in the original are horrible. Especially when Luke battles all of Jabba's minions in the beginning of Jedi... *shudder*

- What exactly were the TIE bombers doing to the asteroids as the Millennium Falcon rested quietly in the belly of that giant hand puppet, anyway? Because it didn't look like they're so called "bombs" were doing a damn thing to that asteroid.

- What the hell are mynochs and how can they exist in outer space? If they chew on power cables, how the hell did they survive before the advent of interstellar space travel?

- There is an "epic" battle between the the Millennium Falcon and some TIE fighters after the heroes escape the Death Star in A NEW HOPE. It is a difficult battle, and when the last TIE fighter is hit it is all very dramatic. In the later films, particularly JEDI, TIE fighters are getting knocked off left and right by the Falcon and the explosions are somewhat less than memorable.

And there are oh so many more...

I think the only reason "A New Hope" (without Greedo shooting first, or the Slimfast Jabba) flies as well as it does is that the story is pretty simple (by which I mean it follows the "Hero's Path" as outlined by Campbell), and it didn't involve any real romance, something that plays to Lucas' strengths as a filmmaker. In the most recent spate of movies Lucas moved outside light-hearted action and attempted to write something that I would say was just a little bit beyond him. I have the feeling that the people around him where a bit too enamored of the big Lucus to say "this needs a rewrite." where as back in the day they might have nudged him more a bit.

That's an interesting speculation, but I doubt that's true. It seems that everyone who was involved with the movie (producers, art directors, sound design, and so on) are all very proud of the new trilogies.

But I agree that there is a tad too much melodrama in the new ones... well, in the love scenes between Anakin and Padme. It does do a fair representation of two love sick teenagers, though. However, it was essential to the plot, so there you go.

I think the problem had less to do with the writing and more to do with Hayden Christensan's intensity. Did he want her to realize he was in love with her, or did he want to strangle her to death? Man... just ease up buddy, no need to scare the poor gal! The level of emotion in the acting for those scenes was too overboard, especially since the evolution of the love arc was condensed into one film. As a spectator, it's hard to keep up when in one scene they're frolicking in "Little House on the Prairie" and then the next thing they're deeply and intensely in love.

But, as I said, it does work on the level that this is pretty much how teenagers work. But honestly... too intense.

I think this is why Leia and Solo's love story works so well in Empire. It's very playful, with Leia playing hard to get and Solo being the self-confident maverick. When they finally do profess their love it's very quick and very light (even in the context of the scene). A quick "I love you" and a "I know." Very poignant and still holding onto the levity that defined this subplot.

However, when Anakin decides to say, "I love you... SOOOO MUCH!!!" He says it like he just wants to rip her head off and wear it like a hat.

As to the acting, with the awkward dialogue and often conflicted and strange emotions that are ascribed to the characters, I'm not sure if anyone could have pulled it off better.

There is no scene in the new trilogy that comes close to being as awkward as the scene in Jedi when Luke tells Leia that they are twins. Even the arrival of the charismatic Harrison Ford can't save that doomed scene. But hey, at least Jedi had ewoks!

I don't mind it when people say they dislike the new ones, it just bothers me when they compare it to the original as if the original trilogy was actually a shining example of excellent filmmaking. The only one that comes close is Empire, and that is mainly because of the dynamic between Leia and Solo, though honestly I think Harrison Ford gave it all the credibility.

But even the memorable "I am your father" scene is ruined by Hammil's unforgettable response.

But I do really like the entire saga, despite all of the shortcomings. They're fun and exciting and overall a good story. I don't think every film needs to be a testimony of Academy Awards material. Hell, I'm even a big fan of the Clone Wars cartoons, because that's what the Star Wars films remind me of-- live action cartoons.

SPOILER ALERT: If you haven't seen Episode 3 of Star Wars, go away!

Good, you're still here. I just wanted to shout into the Void about one teensy, tiny, almost sub-atomic thing that bugged me about Episode 3.

Before Vader has his legs cut-off on the lava planet, Obi-Wan warns him not to attack a foe on higher ground. Naturally, Vader attacks anyway. So, as if to prove his point, Obi-Wan cuts off Vader's legs. Remember that? Good.

Now remember back to the moment when Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul in Episode 1. Obi-Wan was dangling in a FRIKKIN PIT. Darth Maul was on the edge of the pit, looking down at Obi-Wan. If anybody ever had the advantage of higher ground, it was Darth Maul at that moment. And yet Obi-Wan LEAPS out of the pit and cuts Darth Maul in HALF!!

That's my teensy-tiny, almost sub-atomic gripe. Considering the manner in which he killed Darth Maul, it was WRONG of Obi-Wan to lecture Anakin about the advantages of higher ground. Sheesh!

Anyhow, thank you for listening, Void. And don't get me wrong, Episode 3 rocked my world.

Tony M

You know Tony, one thing you haven't considered is that Obi Wan really doesn't want to hurt Anakin. He'd say anything to get Anakin to quit fighting; he understands that if Anakin jumps he'll have a moment or two to attack (as you said, he's had years to think about his experience with Darth Maul and muse over just how lucky he was to get away with that).

But Obi Wan isn't warning Anakin, he's imploring with him.

Of course . . . part of why the "big evil corporation" ended up with the license is that the guy that owns the license got a big chunk of stock from the big evil corporation. Lucas owns a big hunk o' Hasbro as part of the deal he made with them over the toys, so it only makes sense that he took the lisense to a company that he partially owns now . . .

That bastard!

I'll be honest, I'm fairly new to roleplaying, I've only been playing for less than 5 yrs now. But every group I join and play with has had an amazing distaste for the new Star Wars d20 game. Is it something that I'm missing for are they just upset because they feel Wizards nerfed the Jedi classes that much? I'll be honest, I never got a chance to play in a d6 game of Star Wars, so am I missing something from not having played that? Let me know please!

I've noticed over on the Wizards of the Coast boards that there is this prevailing attitude going on of this kind of elitist, anti-establishment posturing, "my original Star Wars (be it game or trilogy) is better than yours" theme going on. It seems that a lot of d6 fans are really resentful of "the big evil corporation" moving in and changing "their" rules.

This is particularly true for the films. I have this friend who isn't the brightest lad, but when it comes to the new films he suddenly fancies himself a movie critic. He says things that he read somewhere like, "The dialogue is terrible and the character development is horrible." It's hilarious because when you ask him to explain character development he has no idea, so he regurgitates something else, like, "It's all horrible acting!" Then when you ask him to articulate in his own words what constitutes good acting and why these actors failed to meet that criteria he, of course, can't, because the reviews he read didn't go into that kind of detail.

But what's really great is that he insists that the original trilogy had a)great acting, b)great character development, c)a plot designed to appeal to mature crowds rather than children and young adults, d)more of a focus on plot rather than special effects (even though the original won an Oscar for best effects), and e)it was more about the "fans" than making money (the licensed products were just as out of control with the original trilogy as the new one).

Of course, what's the best is that this guy, who thinks the height of wit is a really loud fart, criticizes people who like the new trilogy better than the original by saying, and I quote, "they're stupid!"

Now this is a guy who can't understand a single line of any work by Shakespeare who suddenly believes he's a sophisticated critic because he can recognize the artistic genius (hah!) that is the original trilogy over the new one.

You can't pay for that kind of irony! ;)

-- D&D (2nd Edition and now 3.0... still haven't upgraded to 3.5!)

-- BATTLESTSYSTEM (Had a lot of fun with this old D&D mass combat system!)

-- Shadowrun (purchased 3rd edition but haven't gotten around to running it yet; now I see they have a 4th edition?! We used to play 2nd edition quite often.)

-- Earthdawn (have actually written a 70,000 word adventure and a 130,000 word sourcebook [Cathay] for the new Classic line; the Line Producer has hinted around at wanting me to work on some other projects, too, so I'm excited about that. Over the past 11 years our group has put in about five times more table time at this game than D&D).

-- World of Darkness (the writing by White Wolf authors is simply brilliant; unfortunately, my players have a hard time getting into these games, so I mostly just read the books...)

-- A Game of Thrones D20 (I love George R. R. Martin's world, and I've FINALLY received my beautiful Deluxe version of this monster RPG, signed by Mr. Martin himself. The game is great, the book is beautiful, and the rules kick a**)

-- Star Wars D6 (I haven't played the D20 version yet because I'm too cheap to buy the books, but I really want to some day. But I hear they're no longer going to be producing any new products in this line? Can anyone confirm or deny?! And I have Star Wars TRIVIAL PURSUIT as well, but nobody will play me anymore...)

-- GURPS (Haven't played this in about 5 years but I still own several books. I'm a big fan of this system).

-- Conan D20 (Okay, it's a lie, I don't have these books yet but so many people have said good things about it that I'm determined to check it out someday).

-- Pallidium Fantasy (We played this for about six or seven months about a decade ago. I liked it, from what I recall, but the guy who owned the books moved or died or something, and I have yet to try and track any copies down myself. Maybe I'll get around to it).

Other games I own that I have read but have yet to try are:

ROLEMASTER
MERPS
ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN!
ARIA
ARS MAGICA
FIELDS OF BLOOD
DANGEROUS JOURNEYS
WHEEL OF TIME
FENG SHUI (Robin D. Laws wrote a lot of stuff for Earthdawn 1st Edition, so I'm a fan)
HERCULES AND XENA (Don't laugh, it was a gift!)
KHAOT!C
Bram Stoker's DRACULA: The RPG
World War II D20
Birthright AD&D (Could never get any players for this one...)
Victory by any Means

Currently our group is only playing D&D-- the Shackled City Adventure Path! With some other choice Dungeon modules thrown in as side adventures...

As far as video games go, I'm having a lot of fun with Star Wars: Battlefront II while my girlfriend is busy becoming addicted to Warcraft (which I'm too lazy to get into).

They only obey gnome. One of my players, who are all experienced, has a gnome druid. When they got to the first one I rolled to see if it would react; it did not stir to life. Upon reading the command words he brought it to life and suddenly the group had a pet "robot."

It didn't unbalance things, though I couldn't make the same call for someone else's group.

In the scene with Vhalantru the druid made the mistake of sending his new pet in to bar the beholder's path to the boy. A disintegrate ray later and it was so much ash on the floor.

Of course, they went back after the adventure for the second one but eventually the player decided, in sound judgment, that his druid character wouldn't be toting around a construct.

Now they want to fix it up and sell it. I'm thinking about having Vhalantru offering them a few thousand gold (i.e., an offer they can't refuse...) and then buffing it up, only to send it against them later in Chapter 8. ;)

I quit tweaking my adventures because the older I get, the lazier I get. ;)

I really, really like Dungeon Magazine, don't get me wrong. About... oh, I guess 13 or 14 years ago I had quite a large collection of them, but then I hit the age when women and parties seemed a lot more fun than playing RPGs and I somehow lost all of my 2nd edition books and materials (I probably pawned them off so I could afford cheap booze and even cheaper women).

A few years ago I got back into the spirit of things, but I haven't quite yet summoned the will to go all out (me and my crew are still playing with 3.0, if that tells you how cheap we are!) And the idea of starting up a new collection of Dungeon Magazines just makes me pine over all the material I've lost (if that makes any sense).

So I can completely appreciate your position when it comes to loyalty to the magazine! I can credit quite a few nights of fun to the adventures found within its many covers...

farewell2kings,

Even if I were to subscribe, what about the dozens of back issues? That and getting a subscription doesn't help me with getting a specific level adventure. I'm not against getting a subscription, but right now it wouldn't suit my needs.

As far as running an adventure close to the level I wanted, I personally don't like to scale adventures-- one of the main reasons I run Dungeon adventures is so that I don't have to do any work. ;)

Now, as far as my request goes, I don't think "just get a subscription" would be very good customer service on their part. I just think that this wonderful tool known as a message board could be used to help inform potential customers about their products. And I'd like to be able to read what people have to say about the adventure before I threw down cash for it.

I'm not sure who's actually in charge of this sort of thing, so I thought I'd just throw this out here.

As a consumer, I'd really appreciate it if there were a section on these boards dedicated to Dungeon adventure reviews, separated by intended level.

I normally only buy Dungeon issues on a need to have basis. For example, just recently I purchased an issue from this website because I wanted an 11th level adventure. After tediously searching through several issues I finally (finally!) found an 11th level adventure. I went ahead and bought it (a pretty penny for a Dungeon Magazine, considering the shipping!). I wasn't disappointed.

However, it would have been nice to have been able to come to these boards, go to the 11th level adventure section, read all of the reviews, and purchased the one that seemed most favorable.

This might make sense on a marketing level, as well. If the threads each had a rating after the title to indicate the responses for each adventure, then the most popular would catch a reader's attention. This might introduce obscure adventures to those of us who don't happen to own every issue (like new readers/subscribers, for example).

Hey, I checked out that website- it's great! I don't have a lot I can contribute... just stat blocks and some crudely drawn maps (not to scale). The stat blocks aren't "full" either. But if I get some time I'll see if I can go back and fill them out and divide them by chapter.

No promises, though.

I didn't know they did that, that's great! Thanks for the info!

I've been busy typing out the stat blocks for each chapter in preparation for the start of this campaign (which is tomorrow, woohoo!) and I agree that a PDF would be grand. Although, if it is a PDF could you folks at Paizo keep the background a flat white? Easier on the ink cartridge that way.

Another pace killer are maps. If a PC version of a map isn't already available I will create one of my own in the interest of saving time during play. I dislike having to stop everytime someone turns a corner or opens a door to draw on a map. But on the other hand, I can't simply scan/print the maps provided since they show every secret door and trap. It would be nice if adventures started coming with PC maps in addition to the DM maps.

The doors in Jzadirune look like the doors on Deep Space Nine.

That is all.

I don't have the ELH yet, but it's something I've been meaning to buy. Can someone fill me in on a basic rundown of its structure? Does it only have EL monsters...?

What about campaign ideas for EL NPC villains? What about a red dragon that is also an upteenth level blackguard (or something much cooler)?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of really, really, really powerful monsters. If I were to design an epic plot for my players it would include NPCs equal or exceeding their own power, rather than some uber-rare-makes-the-tarrasque-look-like-a-puppy-dog-monster.

James Sutter,

Thanks for responding! You have an impressive, and thoroughly eclectic, resume'! When I was a teenager, issues of The Stranger was considered a prized trophy from trips to the "big city." I live in Aberdeen, which is about a two hour drive from Seattle, and mementos were highly valued among our sad, sad little group of friends...

Anyway, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. =)

So James Sutter,

What's it take to get into the RPG editing field? Any tips in that area? Aside from a sharp wit, a command of grammar, and a woeful lack of respect for the Oxford Comma (which can be forgiven) what are the 'Powers That Be' looking for in an intern?

And continuing with the original theme of the thread...

I submitted perhaps a dozen (or more) ideas to Dungeon a couple years back, three made it past the query, and out of those three only one went to print.

Actually, another *almost* made it to print; one of the other two made it past the original draft, cleared the first revision, sat patiently on Thomasson's desk waiting for the final stamp of approval before at last being picked up by Erik Mona after the Great Transition.

Erik Mona returned it to me with one line scrawled across the front page in red ink: "Too much history- too hard to slip casually into an existing campaign." Or something to that effect. ;)

So, lesson learned boys and girls: Above all else, "good" or "acceptable" is subjective, so never take it to heart. What was acceptable to the first editor (Thomasson) was not acceptable to the second (Mona).

Incidentally, the one adventure that did get published had an incredible amount of backstory, a long and tangled history, and an Empire with several kingdoms! Try fitting that casually into an existing campaign! =) But in all fairness, it was probably overlooked because Thomasson liked the story, and all of the fluff was important for the new Prestige Class I had written.

As far as other writings go... I have one 70,000 word adventure and one 130,000 word (and counting!) sourcebook in the works for another gaming company, plus I recently contributed about a dozen ideas to Expedious Retreat's "Fantasy Seeds" line (though accepted, I guess, they haven't been used yet).

But the real reason that inspired me to post on here is that I have been considering a career in the editing field once this whole college thing is over. So Mr. Sutter... any tips? ;)