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Grimmstories wrote:

So you want to ignore the first line because it isn't done in the rest of the book?

While I agree that whole paragraph should be read that doesn't mean it should combine into one effect

I didn't say ignore the first line. What I meant was to read the whole section and interpret it not line-by-line by through the context provided by it not being single unrelated lines of text.

It's not necessarily going to always be "combine into one effect" - but quite frequently it will follow the pattern of a loose summary followed by expansion upon that summary.

But hey... maybe I'm crazy and my reading of the rules resulting in all the text present having a purpose and making perfect sense is a complete accident of the universe - not the result of me putting aside my preconceptions of what stealth rules are like (i.e. not assuming they intended to mirror "common-sense expectation") and that causing the words to be clear.

If you are just going to be using fallacy please stop. The book clearly has made this clear in different sections and in the first line of Avoid Notice is attended as a Stealth check to avoid notice not just as a benefit at the start of a encounter.

Ascalaphus broke this down pretty well, I don't have access to the GMG so I can't verify it.

Foil Senses

You are adept at foiling creatures’ special senses and cautious
enough to safeguard against them at all times. Whenever you
use the Avoid Notice, Hide, or Sneak actions, you are always
considered to be taking precautions against special senses
(see the Detecting with Other Senses sidebar on page 465).

Noisy: This armor is loud and likely to alert others

to your presence when you’re using the Avoid Notice
exploration activity (page 479).

Using Stealth with Other Senses

The Stealth skill is designed to use Hide for avoiding
visual detection and Avoid Notice and Sneak to avoid
being both seen and heard. For many special senses, a
player can describe how they’re avoiding detection by
that special sense and use the most applicable Stealth
action. For instance, a creature stepping lightly to avoid
being detected via tremorsense would be using Sneak.

Page 466(Last Paragraph of Detecting Creatures before Observed paragraph)

You can attempt to avoid detection by using the Stealth
skill (page 251) to Avoid Notice, Hide, or Sneak, or by
using Deception to Create a Diversion (page 245).

The first line says, "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed." It does not say that it makes you Hidden or Undetected the whole time. That would be a Stealth check to Hide or Sneak. Avoid Notice is what the ability goes on to define, and is not a secret check. In fact, there is no check called for until you are about to enter encounter mode, and then the check is your initiative roll. What you are wanting to do is Hide and Sneak, which aren't covered by Exploration Mode.

Now, it's reasonable if you make the stealth roll and beat the enemies' perception DC (thus starting Encounter Mode undetected) for the GM to not bother rolling their initiatives. But if you're actively Sneaking through a room with enemies in it, you really should go into encounter mode, because you need to know whether or not you make it to cover at the end of every action. You have to move at half speed (unless you have an ability to move faster), so you may not be able to get through a room completely unobserved.

By the look of it, the GM makes the secret roll at the end of each Sneak action, so if it takes you three to get across the room, that's three checks. And if at the end of any of them you don't have cover or concealment, the you become detected, because, "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature."

So if you've got a standard 25 foot move and aren't able to move more than half speed, then you have to be able to get to cover within 10 feet of where you started, or you're not going to be able to sneak through the room.

Please read your first paragraph, you bundle of contradiction. Tell us there is no roll, but have your first sentence clearly stating there is a roll. Or you could simple reread this:

You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed.

Avoid Notice (exploration activity) Use Stealth to move without being detected.

. Since there is no secret trait that means the player is allowed to roll this in the open and use a inspiration die to affect this roll. Of course this is up to the GM to decide. The rest of what you said falls under:

Exploration is more designed for travel or big open space, but not dungeon crawls.

and

Exploration mode is intentionally less regimented than encounters. As a result, during exploration you’ll be making

judgment calls on just about everything that happens.

There are basically zero times in the PF2 rulebook that reading just the first line of text provides a full, or even illustrative, idea of what that rules element does or is about.

As for the counterintuitive nature of the exploration rules... I think that might be a case where the rules text would be a lot more intuitive to a person that has never learned the rules to a TTRPG before than they are to someone that knows how to play another version of Pathfinder or D&D, because all the words are there to give the understanding of when and why to use them and how they work when you do, but people that have a preconception about how to handle "I'm sneaking around" are not prepared for how different the PF2 approach deliberately is.

So you want to ignore the first line because it isn't done in the rest of the book?

While I agree that whole paragraph should be read that doesn't mean it should combine into one effect. The first line states what the "Avoid Notice" does, next couples lines explains how to improve "Avoid Notice", and then explains what happens when going from Exploration to Encounter. I agree with my GM that only relying on the one Roll for "Avoid Notice" is a little much, but to ignore the first line entirely is just wrong.

The system is counterintuitive because it is contrary to intuition or to common-sense expectation, at the very least when it comes to stealthy characters (and I think crafting also, but that's just my opinion). I think Ubertron_X nailed it. Exploration is more designed for travel or big open space, but not dungeon crawls.

The Avoid Notice exploration activity only does what it says it does:

1) You get to roll Stealth to determine your Initiative when you switch from Exploration mode to Encounter mode.
2) You compare that Stealth Initiative roll to the Perception DC of any enemies in the encounter don't immediately notice you.

And it doesn't do anything more than that.

The exploration activities also assume all the characters are traveling together as a party - not that a character avoiding notice or scouting has gone off alone to any noteworthy distance. So when you've got the rogue peeking into a room unnoticed and that's an encounter, the whole party is in that encounter.

Hi, I am the goblin rogue. Just jumping in to give my perspective. I am trying my best to read and understand what everyone wrote. I have already spoke with the DM and we did work something out. This is more to hopefully make paizo aware of the need to fix or clarify the rules...hopefully.

If you read the Avoid Notice first line it states "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed." Which sounds like stealthy characters can move unnoticed until they choose to take another exploration action, trigger a trap, get caught because they rolled poorly, or an enemy performs a search action. Also talks about some of the feats that improve avoid notice.

The second half covers what happens during an encounter which drake stated.

I honestly dislike the rules as written for exploration, they are counterintuitive to say the least and makes me feel like this should have been a video game instead of TTRPG.

Exploration is one of the three modes, if switch from Exploration mode to an Encounter mode it kind of forces(or incentivizes) the rogue to start combat immediately since they have the ability "Surprise Attack" otherwise they have to ignore the ability which defeats the partial reason they avoid notice in the first place. An Encounter should only be rolled if the enemy is spotted the threat, the players decide to attack, or something is endangering pc(s)/npc(s). This is of course DMs discretion.

We are incorporating some of the stuff that have been suggested.

Grimmstories wrote:

Crafting is extremely imbalanced part of the game. Taking minimum 4 days period to make anything even items that should only take a single day, for an example a elixir of life. Even if you completed the craft time, it still cost full price for the item even though you clearly completed the item and the only way to reduce that price is spending more downtime instead of earning money. How does any craftsman actually make any money if they are not adventuring? How will this be fixed?

There’s nothing to fix.

PCs Crafting equipment and earning an income are two different things.

Yes there is and they are not two different things since they have to use downtime and involve the same chart.

Crafting is extremely imbalanced part of the game. Taking minimum 4 days period to make anything even items that should only take a single day, for an example a elixir of life. Even if you completed the craft time, it still cost full price for the item even though you clearly completed the item and the only way to reduce that price is spending more downtime instead of earning money. How does any craftsman actually make any money if they are not adventuring? How will this be fixed?