GLD's page

GLD wrote:

jquest716 wrote:

I was a 5e player both in d&d and shadowrun. And my 5e d&d table (6 of us and a DM) of 4yrs just unanimously decided to,switch over to PF2. D&D 5e got a bit stale and pathfinder 2 is a breath of fresh air for us. But thats just My store atm

Oh god, Shadowrun. How do you do it? How does anyone do it? I love the lore, but man is that game brutal on crunch. Just this past month, I tried to finally give it a go after enjoying the video games for years and spent days figuring out all the little rules, building characters, so on and so forth. I love the priority mechanics for character building and sifting through all the gear and options is a great way to waste an entire day.

But actually playing it is just such a slog. I gave up after a few sessions after I found a HERO System conversion that transfers the whole economy, Matrix, Spells, races etcetera from Shadowrun. HERO is no less complicated than Shadowrun if we're being fair, but I've been playing it long enough that I have house rules, tricks and all the tables memorized to counter-balance the crunch.

Your afraid if Shadowrun after playing Hero? Is it 5th?

Crazy man. I can revel in making a starting rigger for hours but 30 pages into READING Hero 5th I get a migraine and gave up. Never have made it past chapter 2... I still give it a try once in awhile when I'm feeling saucy.

Hero is harder to learn but easier to play than Shadowrun. It's still bonkers complicated, but a standard attack is still just two rolls and only basic math. I roll, compare my accuracy to your defense. If I hit, I roll damage and subtract your armour.

Unlike Shadowruns's, do I hit, do you dodge, how effective is your armour? Add my hits to the damage, subtract my AP value from your armour divide by the phase of the moon.

And as a fan, I will fully admit that the Hero books are poorly laid out and written with all the excitement of an algebra text book. As far as presentation and communication goes, Shadowrun obliterates it.

One issue I am having with the proficiency system is that the different levels are supposed to feel like more than numbers, but they don't really yet. The gate is real with some skills (especially at very high levels) but it takes level 4 or 7 before the difference between those levels really feel meaningful (trained to expert and expert to master), and even then. Characters just don't get enough options for proficiency = feat gate to feel as relevant.

My proposal would be to tag on a rider to each proficiency level that is automatic. Some specific proficiencies get this (like class boosts to saves) but if every proficiency level gave you one free reroll a day when making those proficiency checks, it would already feel massively more significant.

One free reroll per tier of proficiency seems like a lot, but I do like the direction you're going.

Expert = Free reroll a day.
Master = 1 Proficiency surge a day, where you double the prof bonus for a single check.
Legendary = Turn one success into a crit per day.

Those are off the top of my head and probably not the best suggestions, but a nice benefit to really emphasize mastery of a skill for each tier would cool.

Am I the only one that hates this idea? Like, this sounds like a system ripe for abuse. Giving players in game benefits for bringing snacks or drawing a map? That's just antithetical to everything I've learned as a dungeon master.

What happens outside the game doesn't affect game mechanics, or does so as little as possible. I suppose DMs are free to ignore this option but I don't like its presence in core rules.

I understand the goal. To encourage being a good player and helping out in all facets of the game. But if you need to bribe your players with mechanical benefits to be helpful, then they're dicks and you should stop playing with them.

Hero points to reward good roleplaying is great. It's a system that works well in many other games and I usually houserule it into games that don't have it because any way to gently push my players into taking actions other than the most mechanically effective choice is a boon.

I was a 5e player both in d&d and shadowrun. And my 5e d&d table (6 of us and a DM) of 4yrs just unanimously decided to,switch over to PF2. D&D 5e got a bit stale and pathfinder 2 is a breath of fresh air for us. But thats just My store atm

Oh god, Shadowrun. How do you do it? How does anyone do it? I love the lore, but man is that game brutal on crunch. Just this past month, I tried to finally give it a go after enjoying the video games for years and spent days figuring out all the little rules, building characters, so on and so forth. I love the priority mechanics for character building and sifting through all the gear and options is a great way to waste an entire day.

But actually playing it is just such a slog. I gave up after a few sessions after I found a HERO System conversion that transfers the whole economy, Matrix, Spells, races etcetera from Shadowrun. HERO is no less complicated than Shadowrun if we're being fair, but I've been playing it long enough that I have house rules, tricks and all the tables memorized to counter-balance the crunch.

I agree with GLD if you are arguing that PF2 isnt PF1 then why are you here. Pazio was very open with saying PF2 is a new system and not 3.8 or a patch to PF1. I remember when a lot of people were saying D&D 5e was DOA but look at the speed and fame it has gained. You have to understand people playing PF1 own everything already and the sale of books is shown since its being over taken by Starfinder. If you enjoy PF1 keep on keeping on but if you cant accept a new edition with new rules that arent 3.5 then why keep posting these hate post. Pazio isnt going to go oh snap we made a mistake we need to switch everytjing back to 3.5. Please review the game for what it is and not in the lens of PF1.

Yeah man. I know I'm in the minority on this in Pathfinder communities, but 5e is lit. Harkens back a lot to the more straightforward nature of Second Edition and brings D&D back to its roots. Not to say it's better than Pathfinder, but they're different and both enjoyable in their own ways.

Like, if you want to keep playing the same game you've had for 15 years, you can do that. Nobody will stop you. But this is something new. Paizo is distancing itself from its D&D roots and establishing its own identity and I support that.

I feel like the cracks in the 3.X engine were becoming pretty prevalent and I was actually glad to see a lot of its relics be written out.

Honestly, if it's not a complete overhaul, what's the point? If you're just tweaking the existing mechanics then don't bother with a new edition. Just release a book of variant rules and be done with it. And they already did that with Unchained and sprinkled throughout a myriad of other books over the last decade.

If you have criticisms about the new game, go for it. But the fact that it's distancing itself from 3.X isn't a valid one in my mind.

If you just want more Pathfinder 1, well you're set. Between Pathfinder's ridiculous amount of official material, all the 3rd party stuff and all the fully compatible 3.5 books put out by Wizards (and that is well into the hundreds) you are set. There is more content than you could ever hope to absorb and the system is weathered enough that you and tens of thousands of other fans have produced a nearly infinite number of variations, house rules, extra content and so forth, to tweak the game into exactly what you want.

I think the proficiency mechanic is both my favourite and least favourite part about this game. There's a lot of potential, but it seems misdirected. You're right that the gap should be widened between proficiency tiers.

I think that the tiers should be a lot more impactful overall. Achieving master or legendary status should really feel like a big step.

Right there with you. I think it's a system with a lot of potential. I honestly think the best way to implement it is to remove the level based bonuses altogether and increase the effect of Proficiency tiers.

Perhaps an additional +2 or even +3 for each level. Reduce the numbers overall for saves, attack bonus, AC, skills and so on, thus making the small bonuses (and penalties) gained from other places like magic items, conditional modifiers and so on, a lot more impactful.

I'm gonna argue the point about magic items. Magic items have always been a broken system, as long as any 3.X system has existed. The entire game is balanced with the expectation that players are loaded down with boring magic items to shore up Attack Bonus, Saves and AC in order to remain remotely competitive with the basic threats of the game. So at higher levels, it's tantamount to suicide to go anywhere without two rings, a necklace, magic boots, magic armour, magic belt, magic cape, magic underwear, a few magic weapons, a circlet and so on.

Now, I'm not totally sure if resonance really helps with that issue, as I'm still going over the book in finer detail after my initial glossing over, but something DEFINITELY needs to be done about that.