Flashblade's page

Spells are clearly mental actions that require thought as even the paralysis condition describes spellcasting as a "mental action."

There's also...

Choosing a Spell wrote:

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

This is something I overlooked, and is relevant: without an intelligence score (and lacking the relevant anatomy), a Skeleton normally cannot speak a language. Even if Skeletons do retain spell-casting ability, the inability to speak would prohibit a great number of spells from being cast.

And then there's...

Concentration Checks and Casting Spells wrote:

To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell.

This makes it clear that concentration isn't just about resisting effects that disrupt spellcasting but rather a requirement for spellcasting in itself.

Just so we're clear, I personally agree with your conclusion that Skeletons do not cast spells because even if they could because it's not thematically appropriate. I still disagree with you analysis of the rules here that concentration is used in its more general definition rather than specific to concentration checks.

I'm not asking for a Paizo dev to post. I am asking for people who don't actually know to refrain from cluttering up the thread with responses of "well this is what I, a person who does not know and who is not citing an example, would personally do it". I already know how I, a person who does not know and is not citing an example, am going to run the Bloody Skeleton Adult Gold Dragon in my game next weekend. What I don't know is what the rules-as-written or rules-as-intended say, since I've not read every single Paizo material, and there might exist in some book I haven't read a rule that shows one way or the other. I'm asking for ForumUser452 to make a post saying something like:

Page 17 of Adventure Path Eleventy-three has a Weurhfeuihefr Skeleton encounter that isn't given a separate stat block, just a reference to its entry on page 63 of the CruelCreaturesChronicle, and the text of the encounter explicitly mentions that starts the encounter having cast Greater Invisibility on itself — which is one of its frequently-prepared spells in its monster entry. Later on in the adventure there's another creature that's also treated as a standard Skeleton, and the text of the encounter references the spell-like abilities of the base creature being used. From this we can conclude that the Skeleton template did not strip its spell casting ability, and since the adventure does not mention these skeletons being special in any way we can transfer this conclusion to other Skeletons and conclude that the Skeleton template does not remove spell-casting.

There is no conflict intended here, and I sincerely and respectfully apologize for giving the impression I was impetuously demanding the attention of Paizo devs. I just want my fellow forums posters to help with research of what has already been tweeted, posted in other threads, published in books I don't own, etc. With respect, if the intention were to solicit Advice or Homebrew options, I imagine this thread would have been posted in one of those forums rather than Rules Questions.

Side stepping the issue: As far as I can tell, red dragons get SLA by AGE CATEGORY, not HD. It is no longer alive, and no longer a dragon. It is dead, skeletons do not have draconic age categories.

Dragons also gain size and natural weapons by virtue of their age category. Should the skeletal dragon revert to Tiny and lose all attacks but its bite and claws?

@Cyrad — I think I have found some examples of mindless creatures that can cast spell-like abilities.

Okay so I think maybe what we're looking for has not been fully communicated. We do not expect JJ to hop in here and say yea or nay; what we were expecting is people delving into the books and bringing up potentially transferable examples of the rules-as-written like the one I'm about to do.

From the rules for Constructs: "Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Constructs do not have any class skills, regardless of their Intelligence scores."

While this rule is not 100% unambiguously transferable, this at least gives us an entire Type of creatures which might potentially be both Mindless and able to cast Spell-like abilities and/or spells — even a single example of which would illustrate the possibility. Looking at the list of CR 1–10 constructs from the Advanced Monster Search tool available on d20pfsrd gives me the following examples of things that might qualify:

CR 1 Wood Idol (AP 27)
CR 2 Soulbound Doll (Bestiary 2)
CR 3 Guardian Doll (Irrisen)
CR 3 Stone Idol (AP 27)
CR 4 Jade Idol (AP 27)
CR 4 Marble Sentinel (AP 62)
CR 4 Mask Golem (Masks of the Living God)
CR 5 Graven Guardian (Bestiary 3)
CR 5 Mirror Man (AP 68)
CR 7 Soulbound Mannequin (Bestiary 4)
CR 7 Tupilaq (Bestiary 3)

All the creatures on the above list are Constructs which have Spell-Like Abilities on their stat block, which is the minimum criteria for inclusion. I specifically excluded creatures whose descriptions explicitly mention being self-aware, sentient, etc. Several of the creatures above have "Weakness susceptible to mind-affecting effects," so perhaps you would also discount them; however, at least some meet all the criteria I can imagine. For example, the Graven Guardian and Tupilaq have all of the following: Immune construct traits; n/day (rather than constant) Spell-Like Abilitiies; Int —; lack Weakness susceptible to mind-affecting effects; and, lack feats and skills. I would blindly hypothesize that were I to extend the search to include all CRs of Construct (or all creatures in general), I'd likely be able to find more creatures that fit the same criteria filled by the Graven Guardian and Tupilaq.

@Cyrad — Does that criteria satisfy you? If so, then do you agree with my intuition that it could serve as evidence for the lack of an exclusion to the general rule that templates only change the things they explicitly say they do? If so, then it would seem a Skeleton Dragon would indeed be able to cast at least its spell-like abilities as normal.

@Cyrad
What I am curious about is the specific situation which allowed a mindless creature to have access to SLA's or spells.

Is this a mental exercise or an actual situation? If it is an actual situation then having more info would be helpful

I am not @Cyrad, but the specific question is whether a Skeletal Dragon retains the ability to cast its spells and spell-like abilities, the caster level for which are determined by its HD rather than by class levels. Bloody skeleton variants even have 14 Charisma, so non-cantrips are at issue. The skeleton template notably does not mention spells or spell-like abilities, so in the absence of a rule specifically saying that a creature must have an Intelligence score (or otherwise not be "mindless") then I see no reason why a Bloody Skeleton Adult Gold Dragon would not have the usual spells and spell-like abilities due its hit dice.

Everyone has suddenly found themselves surrounded by giants in broad daylight without being presented the option for a Perception roll, because that's how random encounters work. It's so common that it's a trope, and no one is ever surprised by it. This is not a thread for that kind of totally expected encounter. This is a thread for the more subtle, insidious encounters such as…

Flask of Roiling Oil (CR 6)
Thinking not to needlessly waste what remains of his arcane power on such a paltry foe, the wizard pulls from his pack the recently looted flask of acid and tosses it at the enraged rock troll. But instead of the expected eruption of caustic liquid when the flask bursts, a viscous black goo splatters across the surrounding floor in globs; meanwhile, the GM wordlessly adds a monster token to the battle map.

This is the thread, I'm the guy, and here's the trap:

Electric Conduit (CR 7)

Every round, 3 electricity discharges arc across the length of this 20-ft wide conduit. For each electricity discharge, roll 1d4 to determine which 5-ft. wide channel is struck. The entire trap may be disabled at a central location halfway up the conduit, and the individual channels may be disarmed at either end of the conduit.

XP 3,200
Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 25
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
 EFFECTS
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Trigger location; Reset automatic; Bypass hidden disarm switch (Perception DC 25, Disable Device DC 30)
Effect 3 electricity discharges (3d6 electricity damage, DC 20 Reflex for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 120-ft. line)

CR Maths:
• Mechanical, +0 CR
• Perception 15, –1 CR
• Disable Device 25, +1 CR
• Reflex DC 20, +0 CR
• Average damage 31.5 (multiple targets, ×2), CR +6
• Automatic reset, CR +1

Do you folks think this is balanced for the CR? Too easy or hard? Is the description ambiguous? How could the write-up be improved?

Pssst... This question was asked five years ago. I don't think they're looking for an answer any longer.

He might not have been, but I just googled for it. Even if the original author is no longer concerned, the joy of the Internet is that questions remain relevant long after they are asked and answers remain useful long after they are provided.