Erik Herrin's page

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IRONY!

Have you ever tryed to walk in 50+ mph wind? it is a physical force hindering your movment. do you know what entropy is? Well...

–noun

1.Thermodynamics.
a.(on a macroscopic scale) a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.
b.(in statistical mechanics) a measure of the randomness of the microscopic constituents of a thermodynamic system. Symbol: S
2.(in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
3.(in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature (heat death).
4.a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.

It, quite frankly, is a wall of failure.

There aren't two different locations with natural displacement (ie, a pencil in water). Your perception of the pencil's location is altered, but the pencil isn't invisible with a duplicate image of it elsewhere.

But the pencil is invisible in it current location, otherwise you would see it. light refracting through the water causes an illusion that the object is somewhere that it isn't. The physics behind it are the same, one is just produced by "magic".

Spell descriptions trump the rest of this bull's cake. 50% miss chance, but NOT ACTUAL CONCEALMENT.

Roll with it boys... roll with it. Rogues need something they're good at. Wonder why they can now crit undead and constructs? hmmm? They needed fixing. Unless the foe is invisible, sneak attack is a go in my book. I guess this thread taught me that people in dim lit areas (20% miss chance) are immune to sneak damage... but it's not sitting well with me, and I might houserule zero that. I mean, do you think rogues hone their sneak attack skills in broad daylight?

But by doing so your making other problems. Blur and Discplacement stacking, or worse, Improved invisibility and Displacement stacking (SWEET EVIL JESUS...!). Your giving casters a 75% miss chance and immunity to sneak attack.

There's a reason all the powergamers in my groups play races with darkvision or get spellcasters to light enemies when they are playing rogues. Everyone needs defences and offensives, and displacement is one used for rogues.

What is getting to me is some people on this board are making it sound like displacement is an every-combat-anyone-can-do-it thing. Displacement lasts for rounds per level, so a caster will only be able to cast it just prior to or during combat. This is true for the cloak of displacement as well. Most rogue do there sneak attack in the surprise and first round, before the unprepared spellcaster is displaced, or when flanking, a scenerio any good caster doesn't want to be in.

The rogue is not as pitiable as people make her out to be. Sneak attack kills people, which is why you can't do it all the time.

As for the displacer beast, if we are going by pathfinder only, can someone tell me where it is; it seems to have diplaced itself from the beastiary.

<chuckles>

This shows a very basic lack of understanding of the analogy.

How so? Explain, please.

This has turned into a RAW Vs. RAI, Crunch Vs. Fluff battle.

While RAW hasn't come out and just said "Displacement is concealment" there are several sources that that do prove otherwise. As I believe has already been brought up, attacking a displaced creature is like trying to hit a target under water (in real life, not in game). You have to aim for the the creature you can't see, not the illusion you can.

A creature that can't be seen has a 50% concealment chance. However, The fact that an illusion is present in nearby proximity allows for the area to be targeted regularly. You could still hit the target, but a precise attack would be impossible (the illusions heart may overlap with the targets arm for instance). The fact that you may still hit the target in a vital position does not make it a sneak attack, it makes it covered under the critical hit rules.

I've always seen displacement (3rd level) as combination of Minor image (1st) and invisibility (2nd), with the exception of trading the untargetability for the ability to attack without losing the spell.

If displacement is still a problem for your group, I suggest you change the spell to a +8 cover bonus to AC (as if the target were under water) and see if that doesn't get annoying.

I think that is up to you. Whatever it is, she should end up in Kelmarane prior to the start of the second adventure. If any PC's are low on XP, then maybe give them some for the year's worth of stuff they did along with a little coin. Some PC's will help rebuild the town or Church and others will venture out and then return. What they do and what they get for it is mostly your call and can add to the story line.

Yeah, but on Pg. 54 it says:

emphisas mine. thanks.

Real quick question, guys:

I have always been a fan of psionics. The way I have always interpreted their existence in the game world as a form of mental magic. A magic that comes from the body and minds power; internal strength. As a mechanic, I'd love to see it reproduced in Pathfinder more on par with the magic system and classes. In 3.5, my adventuring group had taken to using the unearthed arcana rules for magic with spell points, which definitely evened the ground between the two systems.

The only thing I would complain on is the part of the wilder and soulknife. The wilder seemed to be the poorly thought out sorcerer to the psion/wizard idea, and the soulknife seemed to be made psionic just to add to the book. Both classes just seem like they would be better off as feat trees to the psion and psychic warrior, respectively.

I'd feel great! Especially if the save is possible on other than a 20 (stacking penalties quickly translate to "don't bother even trying").

I never said stacking. Just think of it like the bonus on CMB for maintaining a grapple since the previous round. You fail the first round and ar overtaken by the effect. round two and every round thereafter, you make the save at a -2 penalty because the effect has already set in. Removing it rather than shaking it off is a harder goal to accomplish.

Fear saves aren't the dangerous ones, though.

Hold and domination and confusion and the like are, and a number of illusions, and a number of monster special attacks.

How would you feel if those effects gave you a save every round?

Stuff..

Thanks for the welcome.

I believe I am beginning to see the problem.

The problem isn't the fighters save bonus, but the severity of will saves. Now, upon this I would agree with you. I have often felt that death effects and mind-influencing effects were overpowered. Point and click, your dead. How could you turn that down? And if no one can turn it down than its overpowered status needs to be investigated. I've often thought both spell categories should effect both mind and body (requiring both Fort and Will) or take several rounds to come to full effect or even the spell itself providing a bonus to the save due to the awesome result of failure.

I hope this makes some clarification.

Erik,

Welcome -- and kudos on spelling your name correctly, as do Erik Mona and I. You and I also seem to share the sense that, "if the rules are unimportant, then it ceases to be a game and becomes storytime hour." The only difference is that we don't share the same conclusion from there. Pathfinder's purpose IS to fix glitches, rather than simply ignore them (if the latter, Paizo would have stuck with 3.5) -- so this forum is an opportunity to bring play experience with said issues and discuss. Yes, "play experience." Not just talk.

Now, if it's OK to break one of the Little League kid's knees and then feel he's earned his pizza because he tried, good for you. Others would rather have a game in which all the kids begin at more or less the same ability -- some better at catching, others better at batting, but nobody wants to be the kid who's supposedly able to field but in reality can't do anything at all. The rules are separate from roleplaying, by the way; one can roleplay a good character or a hopeless one, but it's less fun, for me, if I know I'm always going to get to be the kid who can't do anything well.

Hope that sheds some light; if not, you can go back to being superior and I'll get back to looking at the issue at hand.

Thanks for the acknowledgment of superiority, Kirth... That's a joke by the way.

You seem to have missed the point in my metaphor. The fighters knee isn't broken. Far from it. The fighter is a catcher. And while the catcher may not be as fast as an outfielder or shortstop, nor have the throwing power of the pitcher, he's excellent in his position. Strong, stable, and standing right where the damage is going. Nobody else is filling his position. You think the pitcher (wizard) wants to be the one going toe to toe with the other teams winning runner headed strait for him. Not going to happen. However you seem to have made my point for me. Your catcher is part of a team. Each member of your team has strengths and weaknesses. That's why you work together. If your adventuring group had to volunteer one member to resist magical temptation, are you going to send the fighter in? No, you send the wizard. Disable a trap? Send the Rogue. Fight a monster, one-on-one? Probably the fighter. What you don't seem to be getting is that the weaknesses these characters have is a necessary part of the game. If the catcher can play every spot on the team, then let him try. as long as the group works with him, he'll steal their thunder until their tired of it.

I'm not saying don't discuss problems (this is a beta test after all). What I'm saying is the fighters will save is not a problem (hell, it's not even the topic of post). The math of the situation has been presented (and skewed for the posters benefit) several times, yet its devolved into the same arbitrary argument I've heard time and again. The reason the forsaken prestige class was never reproduced from 3.0 to 3.5 was because no one breaks their treasure (on purpose) and no one is supposed to forsake the core idea that magic is helpful depending on its source. I feel the fighter is fine (save-wise) as is and the problem you are trying to debate is one of roll-play style. Pathfinder can give us hard crunch rules, soft fluff settings, ans informative play tips, but they can't run the game for you.

Welcome to the boards, Erik!

Have some virtual cookies!

Arigato, Snorter. Always good to feel welcome

I've had it. You guys made me join just to respond to this same stupid argument that has been going on as long as games have had rules.

The fighters will save is fine. There, I said it. Now everyone who disagrees with it can ignore the rest of my post.

The problem with the game is it is a game. It will never be as complex as the real world "rules system" we run under (which is much less forgiving and much more foreboding than any spell your epic min/max wizard can throw). People play this game to have fun. It's a form of entertainment. People will always keep their entertainment entertaining. Whats good for one person, sucks for another. Make your changes for your personal experience and move on.

That said, let us explore this topic of "unfair disadvantage". The fighter is a class that, by definition, fights. That is his specialization. he's rough and tumble, no holds barred, combat. His definition blurs at this point because this is a game that allows customization. The base fighter is a toy who's box states "I like to hit things, I laugh at poisons, I'd rather take a hit head on than dodge it, and I'm so focused I may become easily distracted". Translated he's saying I have a good BAB & Fort, but a bad Ref and Will. That is his one dimensional base. Now take him, love him, and add more dimension to him. This is the point you, as a player, choose his path. Will he alway be so focused he's easily distracted, or will he train his mind to resist the way he trains his body to. Maybe he'll be more susceptible than your average melee combatant. That is your choice as a player.

Now as this is a game, there must be a reason to play and a goal to prove how well you did. Sure, your little league coach said it didn't matter if you win or lose, its how you play the game. He's right. You guys lost 14 to 2 and the other team got that shiny gold trophy. You guys played your best and should be proud. But then the coach takes you out for pizza at Chubby Charles after the game, where the other team went to celebrate. You look at them as they laugh and play pinball and fling pepperoni at each other and think 'if its all about how you play the game, then why due I feel so empty?'. The reason- You didn't earn your pizza. Your having a victory party for participation. The other team is enjoying their victory- and your supposed to celebrate your defeat? NO! The goal of a game is to win against the odds. Even if the odds are greater than ever before, that is your goal. It just doesn't feel right being handed your victory when you didn't earn it. The same is true for the fighter.

The fighter you create will face numerous battles. In some he will have the advantage, like the poison using kolbolds. In others he will be challenged, like the enchanter's mesmerizing orb. The thing is both of these "games" have a chance of being lost or won. That is why this game, OUR GAME, the game we love so much, uses dice. Random probability to simulate this chance. How he prepares for this chance is up to you. you were given the base, and through experience and "victory" (See winning) you have amassed "treasure and new abilities" (see thing you earned, not were handed). These "treasure bonuses" are accounted for in the rules of our game for a reason: Losers don't make it this far. Losers don't get the rewards. Losers don't advance beyond GO. Losers don't get there pieces on the home space. They don't collect the pot. They don't get the trophy. and they don't move on to the next level. By a Dungeon Master allowing his players to advance in level with no challenge but all the reward, he is making them losers and lying to them about it.

If you and your friends want to tell open ended tales of knights and wizards fighting demons and dragons, go ahead. I cant stop you. Just know that that is not Pathfinder. That is not D&D. That is not a game. That is a bunch of people telling stories. That is what my players do *AFTER* they prove they are winners. They tell stories of the heroic character they made who face the odds and survived. They tell the tale of the surely fatal encounter with the Necromancer in his crumbling necropolis over a portal to the Abyss. And how they survived. And those they lost; the poor souls who tried so the others could succeed.
But you guys talk, were my players PLAYED.

I could hand them arbitrarily large bonuses to everything so they feel comfortable, safe, and warm. But my players like to earn the things they are given. My job is not to mother them, but to evoke emotion in them. If they want to be safe, read a book. If they don't want emotions, play a video game. But me, I MOTHERF***ING ROLEPLAY! I wear the skin of my character proudly. I think like him for experience. If I'm afraid of spiders, I don't need a rule or number to tell me that. Thats character. I run into burning buildings with the thought of saving people on my mind, not my low reflex or how much damage I may take. The rules are here to provide a system for challenge, not cheapen the victory or grind in the loss. So you have a character with a low will. Big deal. Does he play it? Does he compensate for it? No? Then one day his luck runs out and that character doesn't win this game unless you hand him the victory and tell him everything will be better next time 'cause you won't throw anymore big, bad, evil will saves at him any more. Or he could learn. He could adapt. Maybe his next character actually cares about his weakness. Get a sword or a cloak; he chooses cloak. Get gloves or amulet; he chooses amulet. Suddenly a big, nasty will save comes up but this time he's prepared. But he's still afraid. 'Cause if he fails this save any way he might lose this character he has come to love and appreciate. He might lose.

Don't cheapen the game. When its all said and done, it's still a game. When the smoke clears and you look at the bodies of your miniatures toppled over and the negative game mechanic that represents your hit points, smile. Say 'good game'.

...Hell, play again.

Morel: As a DM, you are here to challenge the PC's without abusing or pampering them. if you players make min/maxed munchkins from hell, fight back in kind. If they play reasonable characters challenge them appropriately. But under no circumstances should you ever believe that just because a blaring weak point shines on their character like a Legend of Zelda villain, that the bad guys aren't going to take advantage of it. If they are allowed to use the old "fort save versus wizard; will save versus fighter" logic, so can you. They have access to the same spells you do. the same items and feats and skills to, believe it or not. If your complaining about a low will save, just play a damn wizard. And if you complain about their fort or reflex, just play a monk. And if you complain about their low base attack bonus, just play something other than Pathfinder because there is no pleasing you. Make your own class. boost its save threw the roof. Just don't bring that "it's broken cause I don't like and/or understand it this way" crap to the rest of the people who enjoy this beloved GAME!

Flame off!

Sorry (to OP) for the elongated response. Just a little passionate. I hope you caught my reference to the original subject in there.

Happy Gaming, Everyone!