Elghund's page

Before we start with who broke who's word here, lets go back to Nadyas offer.

"Please, do not be rash if it is not needed... the Pale Tower could as easily be alerted if a scout does not return. Let it come, speak and if there is no quarrel we can let it leave."

It spoke, there was a quarrel and now we can't let it leave.

***

I think this is the rub.

It was a survival situation, she had shelter, Elghunds party did not.

Right then the choice was to either end up in the shelter or possibly die in the snow, now ending up in the shelter could have been achieved through some sense of diplomacy or it could have simply been done by force - the iron price. Elghund was ok with the diplomatic path because it was the easiest for the group and made better sense - hence his comment that the mytserious travelers wont mnake trouble with us because they cannot afford to.

They didn't have the upper hand, they never had the upper hand, but he was happy to make peace with them because it was best all round. He said he wouldn't give them any trouble, and that wasn't a bluff as he'd already said.

"They not going make a big fuss, they can't afford injury in a snowstorm or making trouble, so they probably be nice for now. If not nice then...well they wearin nice jackets"

Simply put, Elghund knows that the party travelling in the snow are unlikely to be in a position to argue with the party about sharing accommodation.

As to his stated attitude:
"Some days I think you lot think I just want kill everyone and everything and not make friends, I like friends, I just not normally making them wandering out of a snowstorm covered in blood and armed to the teeth when deep in lawless country"

"Don't look at Skanes and me then when talkin about making bloodshed, not us tryin to be tricksy with a group of strangers that might have eyeballed usalready, we just in favour of walking over like nothing to hide and seeing what happens when we gets there. We not trying to play little girl lost or anything crooked - we just bein up front about things and being wary not to leave us selves exposed, one frosty nut punch was a good reminder to stay close and stay safe. No lyin' in that, we got bits of mantis still to show we are hunters, maybe that a good conversation starter anyhow. Say whats you all like, I just think Little Girl Lost is a bad move, the bandits seemed keen to hack the little girl to bits, the monsters want to make little girl permanently lost... I can't think of a good time it would work with bad people"

"If anything I not looking to coat my blade in blood, I'm looking for a bit of warmth, some fresh food, and a smith to make me a better bit of steel. We get to the blood bit later, maybe when not so cold. I already fed the Vaetir."

Now as it turns out, Nadya was ok with making a deal, and Elghund was ok with making peace with Nadya, she is offering to share her furs (something she had little choice in) and everyone had the opportunity to work together peacefully.

Up until that point, no need to talk tough at her nor pull out a sword and take shelter and accommodation by force in order to survive, but really, if we said "No, we reject your offer and we will simply take your stuff at swordpoint" what was she going to do about it? She isn't in charge, she's offering us something she has little choice in, and we are all being polite and civilised about it. We could simply occupy her tent and she'd be an unwilling host, but either way we were coming in and it was in her interest to play nice and make friends to avoid her people being hurt or killed by the occupiers.

Now at the end of the day if nothing else changed then that would have been the end of the issue. If one of her men got gobby and started trouble with the Orc, Elghunds only real issue - hence the attempted disguise check - then he would have been in a bit of a bind, but he's still not starting any trouble.

Elghund was keen on sticking to the story of being hunters, next minute we are telling this strange woman we are travelers and revealing mystical magic powers doing auguries and divinations and generally making a spectacle of ourselves, all really dangerous stuff to a small group in a strange land unsure of who we can trust. To be honest we had already tipped our hand to a bunch of strangers, we had already completely given ourselves away to Loki knows who and but for the deals struck by the party the thought had crossed Elghunds mind that all these people might have to go too. Once they get back to civilisation, how were we to hae any faith that these strangers wouldn't tell the world about the new white witch they met on the road with an Orc and a whole show of special unique properties? We just complete gave ourselves up.

But still, a deal is a deal. As much as it was now not liked.

Any deal extends to this woman and her people, the people she is travelling with.

In walks the new arrival - rapidly exposed as the enemy.
As far as I am concerned, she wasn't 'Nadyas People' and Elghund has no obligation to tolerate things presence, the notion of peace doesn't extend to the thing - it was not present as part of any deal and therefore not party to it. We didn't bring any trouble or start it, the arrival of this thing put us in a bind. Now because he was asked to, Elghund buttoned down and played nice.

As it turned out the creature was pretty clueless, so the hope was that after a brief bit of chat it might just move on - which would be the best path.

From there we know what happened.

But lets look at where the next problem kicked off:

"Please, do not be rash if it is not needed... the Pale Tower could as easily be alerted if a scout does not return. Let it come, speak and if there is no quarrel we can let it leave."

It spoke, there was a quarrel and now we can't let it leave.

I think we throw the term 'Oath' around like Skane throws out his nuts, it's a bad habit and only gets us into trouble. We can make agreements, we can make arrangements, and they will always be subject to change - what would we do if it was a raiding party from the Pale Tower? All surrender and lay down our arms because Nadya said so?

There was no requirement to flag any other intent from Elghund as he wasn't interested in making trouble and said he wouldn't, but that's not to say the arrival of an enemy wouldn't change that, and when the enemy arrived he made pretty clear his intentions based on that stimulus.

If we are going to make deals and oaths then lets make deals and oaths with explicit and clear terms - hopefully that benefit us.

Nadya is not in charge, she will never be in charge, and only Elghunds respect for his party members was allowing her to breathe now she knows too much. The only thing he took comfort in is that she is apparently an enemy of his enemy. Why on earth we started spilling our guts at the first opportunity is beyond me. Why not just stay as quiet as possible and simply strike what we need to - we put the woman into an enormous amount of risk just being there, giving her so much knowledge makes it far worse again

From now on I will place a really large wall of subject to subject to text preceding every single post because apparently the in game chat is hard to follow. I similarly expect each player to likewise post a huge rider to explore every nuanced detail of where they are coming from.

Thanks, it has been grand, but this was billed as being on the dark side and instead this is about being pinned with ridiculously naive ideas like playing little girl lost and telling random NPC's all our shitnit while swearing Oaths to strangers for no apparent reason with no apparent gain.

I asked for us to remain on the quiet and simply masquerade as hunters but instead the party went off and started running their mouths and putting us AND the npc's in deep.

The BS against Elghund really annoys me.

The trees started combat.
The squirrel he tried to take alive and tame.
The travelers he suggested playing an open hand with.
He made peace with Ten-Penny.
He was the only one trying to salvage the situation when Skane fluxed it.

And yet apparently he is a mindless killer spoiling fun.

Right.

Now Skane is in place:

Attack
Flanking.
Attack 1d20 + 7 + 2 ⇒ (15) + 7 + 2 = 24
Damage 2d4 + 7 ⇒ (3, 4) + 7 = 14

She can't withdraw now without eating multiple AOO's so we probably have her, just get the hits in swiftly

We've had this trouble before if you recall, where the enemy was offered an oath that they would not be harmed - Elghund did not agree and wasn't interested in that oath because he never uttered it and couldn't even fathom why it was ever given. We had that chat.

With this current 'oath', we were asked to offer a peacebond so we could join forces and help with the safety and security (build shelters etc) of both groups, which we did. You'll note that almost all of the replies were aimed at Nadya and her people. And in context that is appropriate and proper, we weren't going to start trouble for her (as in with her by us draw steel and take her stuff like bloodthirsty bandits) - we now have a mutal compact and a deal is struck. Her and her people are safe from us.

Now as far as Elghund is concerned, she way overstepped the mark now thinking this was her tent and we are her guests - no its now a communal space shared between two tribes. She is no more in a position to offer the Enemy sanctuary than Elghund would be to offer a horde of marauding Orcs some space.

What Nadya (and a few others) seem to have done is consider our offer of truce and co-operation as one of fealty, that we have bowed to her authority, which s just not the case. We have stuck to our word about harming her and hers, but the deal we struck did not extend to random passers by.

Like Annalissa and Elghunds earlier encounter, Nadya made the mistake of speaking on behalf of people that she had no authority over.

Fort save 1d20 + 5 + 4 ⇒ (8) + 5 + 4 = 17

Cheezy, she had claws, ok... :p That wasn't as evident. That was my reason for asking about weapons - to avoid precisely that happening, not sure how Elghund would have missed the obvious claws.

Did she take an AOO then as she double moved away? Or did she withdraw?

Elghund shrugs off the magic angrily

Moving beside her Elghund simply kicks at her legs trying to drop her into the snow. CMB 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (16) + 7 = 23 Vs CMD.

I assume she wasn't rolling with a blade, otherwise he will instead simply chop her for 2d4 + 7 ⇒ (2, 3) + 7 = 12

OK. Then I will go on record as sharing some of Katherson's frustration/irritation with the level of impulsiveness and/or insistent "kill'em!" attitude. At times, it reminds of the old "hack-n'-slash-I-kick-in-the-door-and-kill-everything-in-the-room" days. And that isn't a good thing, in my opinion, for an ensemble group. If we were all playing vikings or this was billed as an old school dungeon hack, fine. But we aren't and it isn't. Is it dampening my fun? Yes.

OK so I ask you the same question:

"Where were you when it mattered?"

Lets play through this encounter on a play by play.

It was Monday that the NPC was spotted.
Elghund volunteered to look.

Rikka puts in a request for heals, obviously expecting trouble.

Katherson chimes in with "Maybe it isn't looking for a fight, but if it is show no quarter. There's little room for mercy in this place."

So who is doing what preparation for fighty fighty here? It would seem that of the three, Katherson is already setting a stage - show no quarter? Little room for mercy? Rikka is hitting up for heals, expecting a combat.

Tuesday:

Elghund knows its Fey.

Rikka chooses to wait.

Klo outs it as horned and hooved, Elghund and Skane start turning a bit nasty about the subject, signalling that they are now hostile.

Katherson now talks about not being rash.

Elghund backs down from getting ready to go attack.

Annalissa defends the host.

So at this point we have a the whole party anticipating some kind of trouble, but Elghund has been checked by Katherson, who was actually the original person talking about having a fight and being all 'no-mercy' should it come to that

Wednesday:
The fey comes in, and so far all good. No one is killing anyone.

Skane shows his mad people skills and drops a clanger.

The fey starts asking more questions about us in response, very particular questions.

Elghund starts re-directing the conversation straight away.

So now things have gone badly, Elghund has jumped on trying to fix things, to keep us from being outed and a problem kicking off.

Thursday

Klo leaves Elghund to it.

Katherson posts that he is aware this is a pretty significant problem,but that he is just going to let the situation continue to go south - could have interjected to help Elghund who was the only one so far trying to stop the train derailing.

Friday:

The NPC tips her hand, starts talking about black riders and the whole deal that identifies her as enemy (or well aware of what is going on)shows her teeth setting us on edge and is revealed as pretty much the bad guy.

Skane keeps being Skane and things get worse.

Annalissa tried asking for peace, but by that stage it was pretty late in the day.

Elghund starts trying to work out just how badly we've been set up by little girl lost and starts questioning the lady, trying to gauge how our tactic has been played against us.

Katherson posts up again that he's saying nothing, once again not trying to salvage the situation.

And at the end of Friday afternoon the situation finally implodes.

***

So it took five days of game to get to a point where it came to a head - in all that time not one post of yours was directed to changing the outcome. Your initial posts were posturing for trouble. Not a word posted to change where that was going. After Tuesday your following post was Monday, which is cool, but hard for us to take guidance other than what you had posted (Get healed, start waiting).

If you'd like to point out any other impulsiveness I am sure it would be good to subject it to close scrutiny (Elk aside, which was deliberate and we covered that). I think you'll find little impulsiveness or kill em all.

After all, it wasn't Elghund nor Skane starting off with:
"Maybe it isn't looking for a fight, but if it is show no quarter. There's little room for mercy in this place."

Don't blame us for following instructions.

Look more closely at your own in game actions.

EDIT: To be sure, go back and READ how the trees kicked off - they attacked the party, unprovoked.

Go back and read about the Weasel, the suggestion was to finish it off, it was Elghund who raised taking it alive and capturing it (to tame to his own ends perhaps) to which Katherson replied was a good idea.

So far its not looking like Elghund or Skane are starting too much actual trouble.

Elghund playing ball was more about not bringing direct harm to them as opposed to accepting that they were his new hosts and there was some kind of broader deal. Unfortunately this Fey knows too much and has to go, despite him cutting in and trying to change subjects and move the conversation - only so much one can do with a hefty minus to bluff and diplomacy. Her asking about the black rider put her on the same page as the enemy, best get to doing the inevitable quickly.

This could have gone very differently, but the party pretty much sanctioned the hit - no one intervened or contradicted anything until after the cat was out of the bag, and once its out its out.

Elghund wanting to gut a Frosty Fey like a fish is a given on any given afternoon, especially as he's seen what they do to their allies (poor Ten-Penny, I think he had a platonic-bromance going there), but if the party yanks the leash hard enough he's always fallen into line.

This is a dark game, the designers clearly thought the party was going to be a bunch of nice guys, and as a result they cheap shot the hell out of us by waving something nice and then have it bite us in the arse. Wave a fluffy bunny, reveal it as a rattlesnake. Nice talking moose? Hides one of the enemy, probably leading us into an ambush. Find something half way nice? It's a trap. This whole AP was clearly written in the style of Struwwelpeter. These are dyed in the wool nasty nasty black hearted enemy.

You may or may not have noticed, but 'deceiving long enough to get close to X them with my Y' is invariably the enemy tactic every single time, so why on Earth would we just sit there waiting for them to get the first shot in when we know they are coming? Why do we choose the poorest tactical decision and then extol it as a good idea 'Little Girl Lost' for example - it divides us and spreads us out, simply exposing us to greater risk.

I don't know what you mean by 'no good reason', do you mean the trees that attacked us? Or the Weasel that Elghund took great care to capture alive? Do you mean the invisible Fey baiting us with the moose? The Bandits? Can you point to the time we were actually wrong?

I'll also refute that we swore an oath, Elghund certainly did not, there is a big difference to telling someone you aren't going to start trouble with them and swearing an OATH, and like you should know by now - via Annalissa finding out - your word does not bind Elghund. Tipping our hand and being subtle? really? is that what the party did? The first thing they did was spill their guts to Nadya. Then the decision was made to start talking to the goat lady instead of just shutting up.
Elghund tried to pull the subject back to the woman instead so the whole thing could blow over. The obvious goat legged frosty Fey who is pretty much looking for us - the one you were going to what, let walk back to wherever and reveal our location? Why?

What I find as being no fun is having party members who refuse to adapt, refuse to change, refuse to take the initiative, and insist on being beaten to the draw when the most painfully obvious clues are there that we are being set up for a fall.

I don't know why you are here, that's for you to figure out.

If you want to see diplomacy then go right ahead and do it, show us your diplomacy chops and make it happen - lead by example. With that said, if the assessment is that you have given up too much information then expect us to 'risk manage' the problem. If you don't like the nature of the talking, then it is on you to step up and do something about it by leading the debate.

I would suggest you would be having more fun and being less surprised if you were actually reading what was written by the party and put some thought into it, like the nasty co-incidence of having a 'Little girl lost' debate and Elghunds views on it, and then seeing a Little Girl Lost playing out against us - did you not think at that point "Hmmm the Greenskin and his stabby mate had some views on that a few posts back, reckon I'll read what that was about again as they are suspicious and violent and that could have weight in this moment"? Probably not.

I was trying to talk Skane down from just killing the thing, where were YOU?

Edit: I can only suggest that the key here is to get into the party storyline, not just the AP one - Elghund responds well to strong leadership, Klo by way of example - Klo says, Elghund tends to do.

If Elghund has a stated position, like Little Girl Lost, then I as a player will stick to that position pretty consistently.

If you want to do the talking and Diplomacise, then ask Skane not to talk - you didn't get immediately concerned when he suggested he was going to be talking to the NPC?

I just find it odd that you seem surprised by our actions when the in game cues were made clear - Don't want Elghund to knife something? Ask him specifically not to, BUT it is then on you to make him feel safe and secure. Once it was tipped to the woman that we were Outlanders the game was up and things had to go red. That's not Elghunds fault, but it was now his problem.

Stealth and Perception
Stealth 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (3) + 7 = 10
Perception 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (17) + 6 = 23

Basically yeah, it has clicked that she's using our 'hotly debated' little girl lost tactic on us, and regardless, she now knows too much.