Elemental95's page

I would ask that the two following archetypes be added to the list of paizo official archetypes for the occultist class.

the occultist archetype, "the Akashic Seeker"
*change armor and weapon proficiency to that of the wizard.
*Wisdom is the attribute used to determine all Akashic seeker class features, such as mental focus points and bonus spells.
*Bonus feat at first level, "third Eye".
*the Akashic Seeker uses the third eye as an implement, and does not select other implements as they advance. each additional implement simply adds to their third eye. Akashic seekers are limited to the divination implement school only.
*the Akashic seeker cannot have generic focus. All of the focus is invested in the third eye.
*change to "use magic item skill", this bonus is now applied to "sense motive".
*replacement for shift focus: at 4th level the Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat, again.
*Replacement for aura sight: at 5th level the use of the third eye feat requires only a standard action to perceive auras, and the akashic seeker may spend a point of mental focus to ignore the fatigue caused by using the third eye feat. At 10th level and thereafter the use of the third eye does not cause fatigue.
*replacement for magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles. The Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat in place of these abilities.
*The akashic seeker does not gain outside contact nor any improvement based on this ability.
*At level 20, the use of the third eye feat is at will with no limit on use.

The occultist archetype, the "Harrowed path"
*reduce armor proficiency to light armor and weapon proficiency to all simple weapons and two martial weapons of choice.
*acrobatics, climb, stealth, and swim become class skills.
*at first level the harrowed path gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat.
*at first level the harrowed path have only one implement and must start with the divination implements school. starting at 2nd level they gain additional implements normally.
*Magic item skill changes to benefit Disable Device.
*"read object" is replaced with the rogue talent "trap spotter".
the harrowed path may purchase rogue talents with focus power slots.
*shift focus is replaced with evasion.
*see auras is replaced with uncanny dodge.
*the harrowed path lose magic circles, outsider contact, and all associated improvements to those abilities.

Good Versus Evil

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

okay, now. this is something to work with, but it is only a starting point. the flaw here is the degree of Significance, perspective and opinion. H.P.Lovecraft's great old ones don't notice us bipedal bacteria, They just don't care, at all. they may never consider their actions as evil...

we do care (I hope) and would try to do something about it.
I would also wonder if there is a way to explain to the old ones "Hey! we matter you jerk! STEPOFF!"

but that requires a definitive good that is not on a slider, or prone to change. cosmic horror beings who we deem evil because they are oblivious to us, because of scale: too big on the scale of dimensional powers, too mighty for any (perhaps all) of us to resist, perceiving time in alien ways...

they don't think their evil, not at all.
Me? I won't lay down for that steamroller - even if it was a force of nature.

religion can't be the scale, because that is merely another culture...
I am of a mind to believe that good has to be defined universally, and stand as true no matter where, when, or why.

take the book "to kill a mocking bird" it describes a time where a man is judged by the color of his skin, and the defense attorney who just KNOWS that that is wrong.

Nowadays. all of us can agree that racism is wrong.

but by what standard did the defense lawyer have to support his choice of actions? The law? well, that don't fly. the Jim crow laws were on the books, and slavery has never actually been removed from the constitution...

there has to be an objective standard of what is good.
I am beginning to think it would take a god to establish the scale of what is right and what is wrong.

what does that mean for pathfinder, should there be absolute definitive rules for good V evil? I am beginning to think so, as opinion can justify ANYTHING.

I think we can rule out history as a judge of what is right or wrong...
cultures and opinions change. what was fine then can be very wrong now.
also, in ten thousand years nothing we do matters at all,

take pollution long after we are gone: it won't just be the earth, it will be the earth plus plastic - take someone dumping toxic stuff now and the picture changes.

but good has to be defined and established objectively in our LIVES.
and yet, opinions and culture fail to truly establish any moral compass.

what does?

What is good and what evil is sometimes hard to tell but on a general scale in PF and similar systems actually quite easy.

well, what is that scale based on?

good has to be defined objectively, by a standard that is outside of whim, chance, and culture.

when the pathfinder society orders a party to murder former members because they once belonged to the shadow lodge, I found it disgusting and reprehensible. that is MY OPINION. in the grand scheme of things my opinion and the culture of the pathfinder society do not establish nor define what good truly is...

yet, is neutrality a valid choice?
isn't it our choices that define us?

if pausing to think about a choice of action posses a dilemma, doesn't morality forcibly require a choice to be made?

It is a really deep rabbit hole. I let this go, but it is something I think about often. what is good defined by a cheliax citizen won't be good for everyone, everywhere...

all those poor slips...

so we can rule out culture and personal opinion as the way to define good - walk ten minutes into another neighborhood and the locals might have a very different idea for what is right, and an individual can devise an excuse for what they did, neither holds any definitive absolute for what good is because it would be a "matter of opinion".

I think personally, there has to be a standard set that is universal, that defines certain actions as wrong and others as good.

is good (or lawfulness) is a cultural perspective:
would a village of humans be justified in committing the genocide of a forest full of elves?

I don't buy it. Genocide has to be wrong, even if it provides you a benefit. yet, is this an absolute value defined objectively or an opinion?

how do we define a HERO as opposed to a Mercenary?
How do we define a cruel guild master, as opposed to a benevolent slave owner

is there an absolute line that shouldn't be crossed?
tell me, you can't really be for slavery as a good thing, can you?

I feel like people often ignore the fact that most of the neutral alignments, or at least the non lawful ones involve making what seems like the most practical choice given the situation, whether the choice would be viewed as good or evil being somewhat irrelevant.

Good will choose an impractical and inconvenient choice for the sake of "goodness" and evil will often choose a convenient choice over other more practical options out of selfishness, spite, or hatred. Most descriptions of neutral alignments i've seen involve people who weigh the current situation against their own interest but wont go out of their way to pick a choice that would be impractical or inconvenient for them.

hmm, good points. yet, is neutrality a valid alignment choice?

Also, by what standards do we define good/evil? is there an absolute, objectively defined good we can use to measure ourselves?

A man kills a lion, good for the man/bad for the lion...
which matters more on the scales of right V wrong?

how?
Why?

Should pathfinder 2nd ed establish a standard of what is good in accordance with specific choices, so that abusive players don't play legalistic, hypothetical, semantic games?

stealing?
murder?
adultery?
gluttony, excess?
greed?
deception/lying?

While this will not work for several reasons. The backgrounds will be implemented like the traits, so no fixed number, like the cards would suggest and often with a link to certain adventures and content. So the background pool will be small but grow fast.

Then again I really really like the idea of the harrow deck and I hope they will build on that, probably not in the CRB but yes. The harrow deck is fun.

I agree, the harrow deck is fun and I hope they build on it.

Elemental95 wrote:

...

According to your logic, no one can ever be good, since even one act that does not result in a good outcome makes you irredeemably evil, forever.

However, what if the world works exactly the opposite?
What if even one act that results in a good outcome makes you irrevokably good, forever?

hmm, I do not know. that is the point. also, the question is

is neutrality a valid choice for alignments?

would defining the skills you could learn based on your ability score modifiers for each Statistic be enough choices to validly reflect a character's background?

looking at backgrounds as career choices...

would a Stage Actor not also be required to dance, sing, give speeches, tell jokes, learn history related to the play's events, learn geography based on where the troop of players go to preform, learn local gossip, learn culture and customs of different peoples, learn how to recognize and address nobility and members of the faith...
Might one play about a sailor who is press ganged into joining a pirate crew also require the actor to learn about swimming, climbing, fishing, navigation, rope use, carpentry, as well as the pirate way of life etc?

in first ed, this would be a character with:
perform: actor
perform: sing
perform: oratory
perform: jokes
perform: dance
knowledge: plays
Knowledge: theatre
knowledge: geography
knowledge: nobility
knowledge: religion
knowledge: local
Knowledge: history
ride
profession actor
acrobatics (stunt man role)
climbing,
swimming,
survival,
stealth,
rope use/escape artist(maybe?),

how do we define someone who does MORE with their life before 9 a.m., than another? why and how?

while there may be a core of 13 archetypes for a character's background: rich, poor, working stiff, leader, artist, nihilist, etc.
why not reference the Harrow deck for a slew of background possibilities?

rather than 13 archetypes, one has easily 54 choices, and because some
of the harrow cards might be a bit nebulous, have multiple meanings or reversed meanings could there actually be many more choices?

say 108 or more?
would the implementation of these choices be feasible/realistically valid for the game?

I'm not a hard core "Game Lawyer", and I would not dream of changing the alignment system as a lose guide to describing a character's stance on morality: Good vs. Evil, and Order: Lawful vs. chaotic...
I like several of the Alignment Memes on the web. it doesn't get any clearer than: follows rules vs doesn't, and nice guy vs jerk.

the bit I am pondering though is: neutrality.
Neutrality does add to the spectrum of choices for a character's "character". It is clear that some adhere to certain behaviors much more stringently than others.

There is a difference between the Lawful good paladin who is willing to forgive and strives to redeem through example...
And the good guy Law enforcer who is a touch... zealous.

thing is - in the hard and fast of it all - does neutrality really exist?

is the basic choice between morality: Nice Vs jerk
and the basic choice between order: follows rules Vs don't
think about it. A choice has to be made, one can't truly "straddle the fence". one is essentially good, or NOT. One abides by rules or won't!

I am sure that people argue for a spectrum of shades, I do too...
Yet in the grand scheme of all things, isn't it "splitting hairs"?

The old "woodcut" image regarding alignment: a chaotic evil rogue trying to murder a bound captive goblin, a neutral fighter leaning back against the wall, and a lawful good cleric trying to stop the rogue. Could one say that the choice to "DO NOTHING" isn't really a choice? That ultimately the fighter *MUST* choose a course of action? stop the rogue or kill the goblin prisoner?

one is either good, or not.
one is either for the rules, or not.
could it really be that ultimately there are only two choices?
if a room has two doors, how can you define your self as good, if you don't always stick with the door labeled good?

aren't those occasional missteps through the Evil door, a matter of personal convenience? and could the willingness to choose that evil door -even once, out of a million times- be a matter of excuses and cast a permanent shade on your character?

it is something to ponder.
a school bus teetering over the edge: save the kids, or push the bus over... isn't that the choice you are making even if you choose to do nothing? isn't doing nothing, essentially choosing to allow the bad result to happen, and hence, the choice to be evil?

or con could get the 12, and Int get the 13, then the +2= int 15...
ready to bump to 16 at level 4.

So how do I asign my "Rogultist's" attributes?

14 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 14*Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha
*throw my racial +2 on int

Now I can wear Parade armor that looks like a Black Jacket of Dumma.
Now I can carry a light wooden shield, a short sword, a short bow and arrows, thief tools and then an adventuring pack. I have to chuck out some stuff to stay light and have room for phat lewtz)

Skill ranks invested in:
Acrobatics (need to balance, need to jump)
Climb (cause there are times when the fighter is holding the monsters off and we need everyone to escape through a hole above us)
disable device (because, "dungeon is full of trap", and I might need to get in somewhere we are not supposed to.)
perception (duh, cause "dungeon is full of trap" and ambush predators, and hidden stuff)
Stealth (duh, cause "dungeon if full of trap", and monsturz)
Swim (duh, cause "drowning is no fun")
an one more with my favored class bonus?
Survival, (because dying cause you didn't respect the outdoors is just STUPID)
my feats?
skill focus: perception, (I am a half elf with a varisian heritage and an occultist. therefore I need all the help I can get in spotting traps before I die a horrible grissly death)
My first level feat?...

Extra focus points. (*I know. why didn't I take X,Y,Z?)
My implements? I specialize in divination, all of my mental focus is in my harrow deck.

I hope I live to see third level so I can get that Danger sense focus power.

I'm not as good at being a rogue as a pure unchained rogue, I am not a front line fighter, I am not a spell caster... but I am not luggage and I can hold my own.

The terrible flaw of being a divination specialist?
"knowing stuff is utterly useless, if you are powerless to do anything about it." I am not powerless, I am forewarned.

ahh, point builds...
the gnome sorcerer with a 5 strength and a 20 charisma...
the elf rogue with 18 dex, and 16 int...
the nagaji fighter with a 5 int, 8 wisdom, and 7 charisma, but 20 strength an stuff...
And the only role player at the table? a lawful neutral cleric of asmodeus...

If the players were going to *ROLE PLAY" their characters, how would their first meeting play out?

The Nagaji snatches up the gnome sorc and starts cooing, "tell me about the rabbits george"... then remembers that he's kinda hungry... Snakes like to EAT BUNNIES...
the elf rogue is holding his nose and hoping he doesn't have to run, or carry anything...
and the priest? he's negotiating a "protection contract" for the gnome in exchange for a little something the gnome doesn't really need.... (evil grin)

Seriously, the demands of adventuring coupled with point buy, force players to specialize and to fill roles: theivery, face, healer, survivalist, lore master...

but, the weight of equipment, such as the "pre-loaded" class packs, and weapons, and armor, tend to require a bit of strength, and one forced march... will exhaust every single character who doesn't have a decent constitution and or the endurance feat -not to mention saving throw boosting feats- but casters need to concentrate, the short bow rogue needs point blank shot followed by precise shot, and the fighter is bent on earning a feat chain by 9th level, and well...

that's not going to happen.

The psionicist straddled a fence in 2nd ed AD&D, especially after "Player's options: skills and powers". You had close to rogue armor, weapon proffs and shield if you wanted. You had some skills that served the party and you weren't baggage. You weren't a FRONT LINE fighter, a skill monkey, a dedicated caster, but nor were you locked into a support role and forced to join the Bardic college of tra-la-la "Beat'n'Blow".

You had some skill, and some gear, and a little bit of power, and you had to be VERY careful with how and when you used it.

if my supposed "dungeon delving historical relic/artifact hunting Occultist" is going to adventure...

I take a race with FEY THOUGHTS and use my background TRAITS to gain access to:
acrobatics, climb, stealth, swim...
oh you know, just the S&^$^ any dungeon/ruin diver *MUST* have to not be baggage.
I strip down to light armor, light shield, a light weapon, because I'm more rogue now than fighter, and more rogue now than spell caster.
thing is, I just wasted my customization options, on fixing my favorite class' idiotic skill list. I don't really get to play a character I want to play, but at least I am not worthless BAGGAGE!

Please PF 2nd ed developers Keep these things in mind when you are developing the skill lists that these "ADVENTURING HEROES" are going to have.

worse still is the concept that the adventuring party working together is prepared for anything... No, it is not.

That time I drowned in quicksand? yeah, none of the characters at that table had a single rank in SURVIVAL.

I don't want characters to be prepared for everything; but there are times when what an adventure demands... NO ONE has.

take them guardian statues that can only be hurt by adamantium, and will break any other material weapon used against them...

How about an adventure that has zombies, and skeletons: do you have a blunt weapon? do you have a slashing weapon?
now add a nasty fey (like a red cap) "ya need cold iron!"
then add a were-beastie, "Ya need Silver!"

... you got all of those in each different flavor? what was your carrying capacity again? and you have a Tent?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, NO!

There is a chance for that to happen with PF2.

I like that the occultist has to make tough choices ahead of time, but isn't static like a wizard. I.e. selecting an implement to invest focus into.
I can imagine implements being "Trance" states, more or less.
I like how resonant powers scale with the investment of focus.
I like how resonant and base powers can represent sustaining a power within the hidden nooks of consciousness (like when you "autopilot" driving a car), a kind of daily preparation of "Contingent" and or "Continual" powers.

For example, the spell "Find traps"... the only time you as an honest player with a legit GM know when to cast it is after its too late. Spells like "Find traps" may as well be correctly relabeled as "Identify cheating player who read their own copy of the adventure".

I like how focus powers and expending mental focus works. it is not spell casting exactly, and being different from: Spells known: 0,1,2,3,4 spells per day: 0,1,2,3,4 is what I care about greatly.

As a player, I get to make the choices. I can choose how much to spend and when, as well as on what and describe how I intend to use it. As I perceive it pure 9th level spellcasters are heinously flawed and mechanically unworkable.

Points at "Find traps".

last night I read through d20 pfsrd regarding the wizard/sorcerer spell list. I was expecting to find an arsenal of combat spells at every level and in every school of magic (with minor differences in their workings) and a slew of "AYCD-ICDB" (anything you can do, I can do better) spells...

you know, like what was offered in the old 2nd ed D&D "spell compendium" book set. what did I find? did I find the wizard to be vastly OP with a diverse arsenal of dhunam ahkeem puppet "IKEELLYEW"? no, not-so-much.

what I find (in my opinion) is that the spellcasters are grossly static and lack adaptability. try an experiment, a thought experiment, if you will: I imagined trying a sorcerer with the psychic bloodline. I was looking to build something based around force damage and telekinetic manipulation spells: mage hand, open close, mage armor, shield, magic missile, unseen servant, floating disk, a sort of "tread air" spell, etc (sort of - there wasn't much that fit my vision of my desired character of "a-humble-dude-who-is-secretly-an-explosively-violent-telekinetic-poltergie st!" huff-huff-huff,Phew!)

and then I went back in "memory lane" and imagined the character replacing my default rogue in many of the adventures I participated in: there were a couple of scenarios were in my character drowned, got buried by a mold, ran out spells per day, My theme selected spells were not the ones the adventure called for (demanding fire-fire-and-mo-fire-egads-kill-it-kill-it-I-say-with-fire!), In one or more encounters a foe was immune to "magic missile" and that left me wondering if other force based damage spells would work, at all. I realized very quickly how few realistic options and room for creativity sorcerers DON'T HAVE.

of course, having like three class skills didn't help the parties "not at all" either! the character was extra baggage cramping the other player's styles. "Climb this earth berm" nope can't. "swim out of the quicksand" Nope, blup-blup-blup-blorp. "jump down from a 10foot high ledge" Owie, I just lost 99% of my hit points...

it really, well and truly, sucked.

ALL CHARACTERS need skills. NO ONE should be BAGGAGE. especially not some one who bears the burden of the genie in Disney's Aladdin, "INFINITE COSMIC POWER ... itty-bitty-gnome"...

In a few scenarios the character was LITERALLY carried in a back pack. Wrong, just freakin' wrong. Competence is the hall mark of heroes. needing to be rescued all the time, is not.

I'll level with you. For a while there, I thought you were a troll. I thought you were a troll, and I even thought I'd been baited, goaded into responding. But more than that, you impressed me. I found it a joy to watch you work.

But now, I don't think you're a troll.

Elemental95 wrote:

have and I don't like it. it smacks too much of being a comic book superhero: the powers are "At a whim" and as far as I have read don't have limits to their use, unless they are using "BURN". thus an aether kineticist 4th level can use 400lbs of strength all day (for a round with burn: 4,000 lbs), and a 9th could fly all day (Jean Grey, eat your heart out). Honestly, I hope I am wrong about that.

Because who can make this stuff up?

uhm, a sweet roll? a sweetroll? a sweet troll?

Nope, I may be a tad obscure in my expression,
but I genuinely play and greatly desire
a legitimate revision of 2nd ed AD&D psionics
via mechanics presented in the occultist class.

Actually, and I'm just guessing because after all that I really have no idea what the OP wants other than, psionics, but not really like what they have in D&D so far

First, I am an old grodnard who has very fond memories of 2nd ed AD&D the psionics handbook by Steve Winter, as well as the other psionics supplements: The Will and the Way, Player's option Skills and powers, and heck... the entire DARK SUN setting.

but, I think Paizo is on the right track with what they have done regard the occult adventures. (*3e D&d psionics was a bastardization. which was an admitted plagiarization by Bruce robert Cordell, the quote was something about how he'd been too busy with poke'mon tournaments, and writing an updated 2nd ed psi for 3e would have been "too hard, so I just copied all the stuff about wizards and changed the labels". 3.0 &3.5 psionics is not psionics as it once was, it is a mage with a pet rock... who as I recall, lathered up in an oilly sheen and rainbows sprout from his loins when "casting spells".)
for those who liked 3.0 and 3.5 "psionics" you have all the archetype varieties of the psychic class, and the occultist battle host and panoply savant (psychic mage and psywarrior). for the diablo 2 crowd, you have the necrocultist...
there is also the third party outstanding work by DreamScared press.

but I see what they've (pathfinder) have done with the Occultist class and I say that the implement system and mental focus, focus powers mechanic can be a superior method to recovering the flavor and feel of 2nd ed psionics.

These tools can erase the flaws of the 2nd ed system: nova blasting, 3rd level characters lobbing "disintegrate" about and dice rolled "wild talents". these things went BYE BYE.

*an added plus, "they get it".
At the minimum, they have someone who knows the jargon and culture among psychics (not the charlatans, the real ones who help the police solve cases), and/or
they have someone who knows what it feels like to read an object via psychometry, to see an aura, to give a psychic reading, to read a mind, to astral project, use clairvoyance (called remote viewing these days), had precognitive dreams or precognitive intuitions, or other psychic experiences...

the mechanic of resonance powers, base powers, focus powers, and mental focus feels VERY much like how psionics worked in 2nd ed (*when the actual books were read, and rules were being followed) and bit like it is described among the real psychics.

"contingent" and "continual" abilities can be represented not only as investing mental focus in an implement, but as a trance state.
with combat round "action" powers being represented by expending focus.

If I was to write a Psionics book, I'd setup the base class to use a modular "archetype" with a variety of "trance powers" like Resonant and base powers, and a recommended list of focus powers from a much larger collection of psionic powers.

I would make it so the occultist based "psionicst" abandons spell casting utterly and be an intensely interesting and unique character to play.

for example:
Class psionicist
class features
Archetype
module: "blind warrior"
description: you have lost your sight permanently, but uses all of your normal sense and psychic gifts to perceive spatially.
resonant power: supernatural awareness
base power: danger sense
focus power, glimpse, a focus power like the "sift" knack.
Recommended advancement focus powers - recommendations regarding what focus powers to learn as you advance in class levels, that fit this character's theme...

but, the player DOESN'T have to follow those recommendations...
If the blind warrior want to "heat" his sword to add fire damage that can be the player's choice.

Benefits: massive customization options through a wider selection of focus powers.
a unique character class that is separate from spell casters.
A class with a feel and very rich flavor.

has anyone thought about using the kineticist as a base for designing psionic classes? Seems it could work very well.

I have and I don't like it. it smacks too much of being a comic book superhero: the powers are "At a whim" and as far as I have read don't have limits to their use, unless they are using "BURN".

thus an aether kineticist 4th level can use 400lbs of strength all day (for a round with burn: 4,000 lbs), and a 9th could fly all day (Jean Grey, eat your heart out). Honestly, I hope I am wrong about that.

well then, I shall work on a second fiction installment from the perspective of an oneiro, the dreamers, the order of Morpheus, but as a rejected sect of the Desnan faith.

Psionics aren't magic as presented in the Dreamscarred Ultimate Psionics series. It's really well done and worth picking up.

I'm just amused by your tenacity and if you fill this thread, I'll keep reading it.

okay, cool.**********

******************
This is the hope. I'm planting seeds, nothing more. Saying, "I want X" can sound very rude, and demanding. Not my intention.
"Please, I would ask that the following be given a moment of consideration. thank you for your time in this regard." is much more of what my goal is. if my ideas are not written to a desired standard, the aim is to plant the seed of an idea in a developers mind. think of me being a carrier for a disease, and I am doing all I can to hand out the psychic virus equivalent of explosive cerebral glioblastoma but, in a much more benevolent fashion. free ideas...

Psionics is deemed too scientific by some and that gets my attention as Psionic classes are the ones I enjoy playing.

Is psionics fantasy?

Yes.

Fantasy adventure role playing games are based on a rich blend of historical realities and mythical fantasy.

The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, experimented and explored the mysteries of the world with reasoning. Their philosophic insights are the foundations of the modern sciences. In the east, exotic faiths focused on meditation and contemplation spread, martial arts were created, practiced, and mastered. These concepts we find in history, myth, and legend can be borrowed from for our purposes.

For examples of psionic characters in our history we can look at mysterious historical figures such as Nostradamus, Mesmer, and Rasputin from history.
(*Conversely wizards have the likes of merlin and Faust for their examples, and both of these are fictional.)
*******************
An ORIGIN for psionic organizations: monastic order maybe?
Given the ephemeral and anecdotal nature of claims regarding psychic power, how could a psionic order have formed in the fantasy world?

The ancients believed that dream existed before titans and gods, and as something outside those categories. Everything is connected to the dream realm. Dream is a place that both is and isn’t, a realm that we all visit and share.
A faith centered on dreams (cough* Desna) would lead to desiring to understand dreaming and the powers of dream. This results in experimenting with lucid dreaming and finding ways to attain the state of lucid dreaming. This eventually evolved into the first oneiros order of psionics. This order used the realm of dream to clairvoyantly perceive distant locations and send telepathic messages. The Oneiros attained trance states to harness the power of the dream realm.

Alternately:
A monastic order of martial philosophers pondered the spirit and its relationship to the body and mind. The philosophers used meditation to focus their perceptions inward. They studied the interactions of the three aspects of being: body, mind, and spirit. They mastered mental focus and perceiving the aura, which lead to the discovery of the chakras. Through the study of the aspects, aura, and chakras they discovered the power to heal and more.
These monks also used astral travel to explore the akashic realm. Recording the lore of their studies for students to follow them. The martial philosophers had become the Akashic order.

When the two orders met they shared their discoveries, but remained exclusive.

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

Psionic powers can be confused with magic, and magic can be used to accomplish similar feats, but the actual workings are opposites.
The archetypal medieval European wizard sought to understand secret laws of nature so that they could use them like tools. Magic is not an internal art. It is an external art of formula, alien languages, and symbols. Wizards apply their knowledge of these secret laws to gain a reciprocal effect from reality itself. The wizard uses secrets hidden within reality to command elements and forces to do the wizard’s bidding.

The psionicist embraces power within the self. The psionicist goes within to draw power forth from the mind.

when a wizard casts a spell, they frequently serve as a conduit for the spell energy - hence the "strain" that bars one from casting infinite magic missiles, etc.
as to the sorcerer...

a spider hatches from an egg, knowing how to spin a web. it is biologically loaded with instruction necessary to survive.
A sorcerer's magic is like that inborn knowledge.

in the case of the sorcerer, it is the knowledge of how to use magic.
The sorcerer may have an additional knack of enduring the strain when it comes to being a conduit for those essences which power the spells that are inborn knowledge for the sorcerer, thus the "bloodline".
Sorcerers are magic users with a different game mechanic, spontaneous casting.

Sorcery is NOT to be confused with the the true power of the mind.

The occultist archetype, the "Harrowed"
1. change to armor and weapon proficiency: reduce to rogue weapon and armor proficiency.
2. class skills are changed to match the rogue class skills.
3. at first level the harrowed have only one implement a harrow deck, and start with the divination implements school. starting at 2nd level they gain additional implements normally.
4. at first level the harrowed select one bonus feat: weapon finesse, weapon focus, or point blank shot.
5. Magic item skill changes to benefit Disable Device.
6. "read object" is replaced with the rogue talent "trap spotter". further, the harrowed may purchase focus powers or opt to gain a rogue talent in the place of a focus power with the following limitations: no talents linked to sneak attack, nor any talents that provide access to class features of other classes (no ninja talents, no firearms, no panache).
7. shift focus is replaced with evasion.
8. see auras is replaced with uncanny dodge.
9. the harrowed lose access to magic circles and outsider contact, and all associated improvements to those abilities.

Regarding the top part, about Post on the message boards being "Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media."

Please consider the following ideas:
the occultist archetype, "the Akashic Seeker"
1. change armor and weapon proficiency to that of the wizard.
1. Bonus feat at first level, "third Eye".
2. Wisdom is the attribute used to determine all Akashic seeker class features, such as mental focus points and bonus spells.
3. change to implements: the Akashic Seeker uses the third eye as an implement, and does not select other implements as they advance. each additional implement simply adds to their third eye.
3. change to spell casting: Akashic seekers are limited to divination implements only.
4. change to mental focus: the Akashic seeker cannot have generic focus. All of the focus is invested in the third eye.
5. change to "use magic item skill", this bonus is now applied to "sense motive".
6. replacement for shift focus: at 4th level the Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat, again.
7. Replacement for aura sight: at this level the use of the third eye requires only a standard action to percieve auras, and may spend a point of mental focus to ignore the fatigue caused by using the third eye feat. At 10th level and thereafter the use of the third eye does not cause fatigue.
8. replacement for magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles. The Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat in place of these abilities.
9. The akashic seeker does not gain outside contact nor any improvement based on this ability.

The "arms-master" archetype is the Brawler hybrid class with the following changes:
1. flurry at first level, and the fighter doesn't merely "count as" having two weapon fighting... the arms-master simply has it.
2. The arms-master is not restricted to the close weapons group, in fact the armsmaster can choose any one weapon group at second level and improvements are 1 every 2 levels.
3. the arms master AC bonus is an OPTION, that the fighter can choose to use or the arms-master can replace this with the fighter's armor mastery, starting at 3rd and improving 1 every 2.
4. knock out, awesome blow, and the related improvements are changed into bonus feat slots.
5. the armsmaster has more daily uses of martial flexibility and the duration is that "encounter" regardless of how long it takes.

The following are my thoughts, suggestions, and desires for PF2.
I have noticed that my players absolutely prefer the unchained classes, and why not?

in addition to the regular gains for level advancement: saves, bab, skill ranks, feats, and attribute increases...

the unchained classes have goodies starting at level 1.
the unchained classes tend to get class abilities and features in what I call tracks. These gains may occur at a rate of One gimmick every 2, 3, or 4 levels.

for example:
rouge talents -> 1 every 2
sneak attack -> upgrades 1 every 2
and then we add: danger sense, trap sense, evasion, uncanny dodge, debilitating strikes, rogue's edge...

meanwhile the fighter has:
bonus combat feats -> one every 2.
bravery? a sad lackluster ability that should just change into to something less situational and more useful... like a bonus to will saves, period. "situational" means, "only matters when" which also means... might NEVER matter at all.

Then there is "The long crawl across the desert of no changes" to a 1 every 4 level ability and well, its like "here now your equipment dosen't make you suck as much" ooh, ahh, oh, count me astonished.
then the 1 every 5 level ability, "you get a +1"...

huh? what? a +1?

Seriously, there is far too much that the fighter class doesn't or can't do. So much so, that I feel the "ARMSMASTER" below is a vastly superior fighter than the actual fighter class.

the armsmaster adapts to any situation and can fight with any means availiable, the arms master isn't anchored to EQUIPMENT to matter in the game, and might do just fine without any magic items...

the fighter can't. the fighter is rigid, fixed, and options for recourse are few and none. Strip away the items (especially MAGIC ITEMS) and the fighter simply falls flat, dead as a door nail. the future fighter for pf2 should be the "armsman" or something like it.

Did anyone else notice that the whole "psionics comes from within, magic iS learning the formula to affect the world from without" pretty much sums up wizard vs sorcerer?

and you would be mistaken in my opinion for the following reason:

as to the sorcerer...

a spider hatches from an egg, knowing how to spin a web. it is biologically loaded with instruction necessary to survive.
A sorcerer's magic is like that inborn knowledge.

in the case of the sorcerer, it is the knowledge of how to use magic.
The sorcerer may have an additional knack of enduring the strain when it comes to being a conduit for those essences which power the spells that are inborn knowledge for the sorcerer, thus the "bloodline".
Sorcerers are magic users with a different game mechanic, spontaneous casting.

Sorcery is NOT to be confused with the the true power of the mind.

Go ahead and post your whole book.

does this mean that you like my ideas?

or is this some snark remark, about me being easy to take advantage of?
if so, thank you. That *is* what I want...

I am in the camp that says, "Psi is fantasy. Psi is awesome for gaming." if I can get more minds to agree with me, without actually putting my money out there...

so much the better for me and the "Psi is fantasy" camp.

How can I start writing for Paizo?
Paizo does not accept unsolicited submissions. If you are just starting out in the RPG industry consider: Writing for other RPG publishers—especially those who produce Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products—or writing fan-generated content using our Community Use Policy can bring your writing to the attention of Paizo.
You can also publish your own Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products using the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License.

Or, there's a recent [Community Project] Wayfinder #19 Call for Submissions

Regarding the top part, about Post on the message boards being "Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media."

"Please, I would ask that the following be given a moment of consideration. thank you for your time in this regard." is much more of what my goal is. if my ideas are not written to a desired standard, the aim is to plant the seed of an idea in a developers mind. think of me being a carrier for a disease, and I am doing all I can to hand out the psychic virus equivalent of explosive cerebral glioblastoma but, in a much more benevolent fashion. free ideas...

ergo, the title of this thread. To all the Paizo Developers, please read my posted comments. I am hoping to offer inspiration and a nudge in a desired direction.

CrystalSeas wrote:

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

sorry, but the CRB alone weighs a ton, and the other books are not light either assuming I play a class from the APG and additional options from a couple other books, my satchel is full to bursting, and it's tiring to carry the half dozen books... no PFS for me. It might be something if I actually needed it to find games, but fortunately I don't.

An amazon fire pad, download your paizo.com store pdfs,

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

1. I dunno, and I believe neither do you.

but hey, 10$ a copy sold X 1,000 peeps = $10,000 in your pocket. The goal for third party is to grow a fan base, to have name recognition, and a reputation for high quality work. if you are missing any of these...

you are not making money, and won't stay in business for long.
Now, let's all stop bickering. Please. I won't reply to combative responses in this thread anymore.

People be cool.

Elemental95 wrote:

PF society has the most brilliant way to ensure copies are sold and not stolen, not turned into pdf and dropboxed. if I was would make something, I'd want that assurance of sales and not theft.

PF Society has no such thing. Nor does Paizo.

I feel you error here. PF society has rules that a character cannot be made unless the player owns a copy of the source item and or watermarked pdf. Don't you dare try to play pfs with pirated books - bad things will happen. rather than one person buying one pdf, and then sharing it with millions world wide: Society play requires each individual player PROVE they have purchased those items.

I am well aware that they indemnify themselves from lawsuits by denying all suggestions/requests...

This is why I am writing to them, this is being done with the hope that I can plant the seeds of an idea for future PF2 content...

A bit like "inception", the dictionary use as well as the movie.
in writer parlance "enthameme", I plant the idea...

the rest is their doing.

You know your primary audience here is going to be other Pathfinder players and not developers, right?

You seem to have given a lot of thought to fleshing out the standard psychic powers tropes. Why not develop something yourself?

specifically, at this time I do not know the status of the PF-OGL and august is a long time to wait to get a thorough understanding of how I should write to be compatible. last, 3rd party is not allowed in pf society.

PF society has the most brilliant way to ensure copies are sold and not stolen, not turned into pdf and dropboxed. if I was would make something, I'd want that assurance of sales and not theft.

*psi fantasy fiction*
I am beaten, dirty, and running for my life. Exhausted, I stumble and then trip falling headlong. The harvest had passed some time ago, fallen leaves leave the bare branches looking like long spikes. On this narrow winding deer path, I lay face down in the dirt trying to catch my breath. There is too little grass for me to rest with any comfort. I lift my face up and look about me terrified of any noise whatsoever. I am too tired to get back up to my feet and run anymore. My face streaked with dirt and dried tears is full of fear, loss, and grief. I cannot cry anymore, I have no tears left. I roll onto my side and curl up into a cold shivering ball.
**********************
Last week, a watchman clad in the black uniform and mail of the watch walked uncertainly from the tavern. The young man had too much ale. When His eyes fell onto my mother, I just knew that this was bad. He grabbed her arm as she was sweeping the walk before our market stall and he yanked her to him. His grip was hurting her. He slurred nasty words against her neck, his impatient rutting demanding she submit to his will to sire a brood. My Father came out of the bakery and was instantly filled with a seething rage. He dropped the platter of loaves on the bench and rushed forward…
Only to stop at the point of a hastily drawn dagger. My mother collected her senses and was more enraged at the threat to my father than to her own life. She swung the broomstick up into the watchman’s face so hard that there was a loud “clop” sound. The watchman’s grip loosened, and he fell to the cobblestone road and both my mother and father stood ready to beat him some more. The watchman made threats of arresting them and having them in stocks, when another watchman on horseback rounded the corner. My parents took a step back and allowed the drunk watchman to regain his feet. The two watchmen exchanged words and the drunkard leveled false charges against my parents. The watch captain waved a gauntleted hand for silence and directed two of his retinue to strip the drunkard of his uniform and to place him in the stocks.
The watch captain spoke to my father, something about how sorry he was for the unruly drunkard and how much he wanted our Myrtle recipe to be a standard ration for the Watch. My father was glad of this, bowed deeply, gave his thanks and offered to make a contract for the rations with the watch captain at another time.

Our Myrtle is a secret family recipe. First we make large sourdough rolls and baste them with a bit of melted butter and bake them to a light golden brown. With the pinch more of finely ground soda stone and yeast, each roll is rises to the size of an ale tankard. We cut off a cap at one end of each roll and carefully hollow out the center of the rolls. Then we stuff the rolls with a mixture savory cooked meat, cheese, and a sprinkle of spices. The cap of the roll is then pressed on the opening to plug the hole. After the baking is finished, the rolls look as if they had always been whole. We read a prayer over each batch so that each roll may be good, that the myrtles will bless and strengthen those who eat them. The Myrtles are our bestselling good. The tavern may buy our loaves of bread, the outfitter may sell hard tack, only we sell our myrtles. My mother believes that our prayers are answered, while my father thinks it is his skills as a grocer and baker.

The guild houses are run by those who have become rich by the practice of their trade. When the guilds become rich, the owners set their apprentices take over the work. As a guild gains wealth, more people join the guild for work. As the guild grows, it can meet the demands of more contracts. The guild masters grow richer, and gain power by simply producing goods and keeping their word. The Cheeseman is a guild master we know. He knows of our myrtles and learned of the contract being offered to my father. The Cheeseman has made an offer to buy our bakery, the myrtle recipe, and the contracts we have with the butchers and the grain farmers. When the Watch captain was relieved, and replaced with the young watchman who had accosted my mother: My father accepted the offer. He said to my mother, “We have no choice. The law will no longer protect us from that animal. We have to go away or we will never know peace. I do not know if he was talking about the aggressive Cheeseman or the scandalous new watch captain.
Leaving all but a sack my father carried, we bartered for passage with a caravan heading south away from the kingdom’s boarders and towards the frontier. The first day was uneventful. We were still fresh and willing to drive the caravan on so we did not break to camp that night. The next day we did not stop until the sun hung low in the sky. We set up camp, had dinner and slept under the stars. The following morn we took to the road and nothing happened until after the noon sun.
As the lead riders came about a bend in the road, they found a man lying in the dirt. They went to his aid immediately. They managed to rouse him, and gave him water to drink. The rest of the caravan caught up and halted. This created some confusion as the rear of the caravan did not know what was going on around the bend. Some shouted rumors made it to the rear and most of the caravan focused their attention on the bend ahead, wondering about the scene that they could not see. That was when highway men hiding in the trees crept close to the rear of the caravan, then attacked! Those administering aid to the man who’d been lying in the road were stabbed with rapidly flashing daggers he’d hidden in his tunic. Horsemen and archers joined the fray. The whole of the caravan was confused, surrounded, and swiftly overwhelmed.
The highway men killed ruthlessly during the attack, no one was spared. My mother took an arrow to her head, and my father died impaled on a horseman’s spear. I had been hidden in the wagon but was able to see all this happen through a knot hole. Once the screams and singing of iron on iron ended, the highway men loaded the corpses into a cart and took the reins of the wagons. There would be no sign of the ambush on the road. By nightfall, the all of the wagons were in the bandit camp. Goods were unloaded into a large dark cave. Of all the things the highway men found in the caravan, including survivors: they took what they wanted, then put the ruined to the sword.
I was among the last to be caught. As a young boy, they decided to have some sport. Six of the men drew axe handles from a barrel and formed a circle about me. They started to beat me with the wooden hafts. Each blow sent me reeling, my blood was soon trailing each strike in narrow sticky streams. A blow connected with my head and mercifully I fell unconscious. After a few more blows on my still and unmoving body, they stopped. It seemed that the last wagon to be searched held three sisters and what the bandits did to them would continue well into the night.
My body lay well away from the camp. When my eyes flicked open I would have screamed and cried from terror, had I not heard the women and girls still being savaged. This sudden reminder was enough for me to hold my tongue. Instead I did as my fear and injuries commanded me to, I crawled away. I still had my cloak to stave off the cold. Once I managed to find my feet I limped with my breath hissing between clenched teeth. I went downhill to a creek bed and up the other side. I lost count of how many times I did this; Limping, crawling, climbing. Well after the sun rose on my back I did not cry, but my tears flowed unbidden. I collapsed by a tree and mourned for my mother and father, but my injuries kept my crying to a hissed whisper.
When I heard something in the woods I silenced myself. Would the highway men hunt me down with their horses and bows? Was another forest predator stalking me? A child would be an easy meal for wolves, a bear, or anything else that may be hungry for the flesh of a wounded child. Animals did not reason, no amount of pleading would save me. I had to keep going. I decided to keep going west, following the sun. Beaten, broken, bloody: I could die, but I didn’t want to. Maybe I should have. How was I to know that I was never going to have justice, that I would know sorrow all my days, and that all my nights would be visions of the raid? In my sleep I would see the arrow sprout from my mother’s skull, and the spear plunge into my father’s back as he knelt cradling her corpse.
*********
I wake up, I can hear the sound of water. The soft burble of a stone filled stream at the base of this hill. I crawl to a tree trunk and use it to help me rise to my feet. When I reach the stream I sit down feeling my injuries before I scoop water to my mouth with a cupped hand. It is all I can do to sip. I am dizzy, I retch to the side. I make myself drink more until my belly hurts. I draw my water skin and fill it. All I have is a small hatchet. I can grab up tufts of grass, leaves, twigs, and cut larger branches to build the base of a campfire. I may be able to strike a stone for sparks, and I can start a fire that way. I may be young, but my father taught me much and I learned from my chores.
These thoughts would bring fresh the memories of my parent’s murder, and renew my guilt at not having joined them in death. I decide I will not make a camp here. I am probably still too close to the bandit camp. They would see the smoke and find me. In the satchel at my hip I have a book for me to practice my reading, a sheaf of pages and a charcoal stick to practice my letters. I also have a soft leather rag wrapped about a myrtle. It has been crushed, but the fragments are still food to eat. I am weary, but I can continue on. Each league is a day of travel by horseback. I guessed that we had gotten three leagues south of my hometown, and that I may have gone two leagues west into the frontier. I was truly alone, I could die here. All it would take is a moment of carelessness.

Then I hear it on the wind. That is the odd thing of sounds in rolling foothills. Sometimes the wind can carry voices from afar, while others can be silenced near you. It is very faint, I try to guess where the sound came from. My best guess is further west, across the river, beyond the opposite foothills and likely cresting the far ridge.

That is where I am going.

It takes me a few more days and nights of walking, climbing, and some swimming. At long last I see smoke from a tall chimney. There are seven log cabins, seven families. I walk to the cleared area at the front of the cabin and I sputter, “Hello” before I collapse with exhaustion. I am half starved. Surprised voices surround me, then they carry me into the cabin. I cannot understand their speaking, I do not know their words. The bed is soft and the blanket is warm. An old man binds my wounds.
He spends the next two days watching over me, his children bring me food and water. A board with carved stones is brought to me and through this board and gestures I learn some of their words. I learn enough to tell them what had happened.

The old man bade his young daughter to learn my words and my lettering from my book. I am glad to share with her. They learn that they are close to the kingdom of my people; only a few days by horse back across the river east and to the north. The men grumble but the old man silences them with a few of the words I know said loud and clearly, a command.

“We stay.”

With the passing of a moon I am a stranger among them, but I live as one of them. They follow a rigid routine every day. They wake before the sun and gather in the yard. We exercise and practice the martial forms. After sunrise, we bathe and break our fast. Then we all draw water from the well to fill the reservoir that waters the garden and orchards. We tend the pigs, goats, and chickens by moving them from the night pens to the day pens. When we need it an animal is slaughtered for meat and the meat is preserved by smoke or in jars with oil. The chickens give us eggs. The goats give us milk and cheese. A few men fish the river with woven nets and the fish are packed in salt or dried in the smokehouse. Some of the men hunt with bow and spear. This work ends, we wash our hands and eat at high sun.
After this we go to the hilltop to dig. Stakes in the ground with long yarns reveal the size of the area to be cleared. We break stone with chisels, hammers, and picks. We lift and carry the earth to the rows in the farm, and the cut stone to build the walls outside the stakes. Every day, the walls grow a little. We are building something big from stone: Walls, towers, a flat field of stone. Are we building a castle?
Towards the evening we are all weary, but the elder lead us in the exercises and martial forms once again, then we all sat with our legs crossed. I did not understand what we were doing. Truth be told, I was famished. I had been hoping to enter the long dining hall and eat dinner.
The elder came to sit before me, he excused the others and they entered the dining hall. He watched me closely before he said, “You do not know our ways. I will teach you. Your questions are many, I know. I ask you to be still. Do as I do.”
He drew in a very deep breath, held it and let it out slowly. We did this a few more times. Then He flexed all of his muscles and held them clenched. He made a show of relaxing his toes, his feet, and on up his body.
He said, “This is true relaxation technique. Weary the body and silence the mind. Now the next lesson. We are spirits. Like the wind you cannot see, the wind is always there. Draw a breath, now, blow it out”.
I did so, and I felt a little light headed. He continued to direct my attention to the hand he held up before his chest, “You have made wind by blowing hard. Again we are spirit, and we can make our spirits felt through different means. Just as you blew the air, we do these things to commune and unite with our spirits.”
I did not understand. I said, “The wind is of the sky, it covers the whole of the world. The sky has been before the elder was born, and will be long after I am old. If spirit is like the wind, is all spirit like the sky? It was difficult to grasp. It was so big. What did it mean for me? What did this mean for my parents? My mother, my father, have they become like the wind? There, but I could not see them, there but I could not feel them?” I was ready to begin sobbing, but the elder sat still before me. He waited and my tears began to flow.
The elder said, “The answer is yes. They are not wind, but they are like the wind. All spirit is not the sky, but it is like the sky. Now I teach you to see spirit. The body without spirit is dead. You are in your body, but you have not truly united your body to your spirit. The body clamors with needs this is why we weary the body to quiet the flesh. Our minds clamor with countless ideas, memories and distractions; this is why we sit and breathe, to quiet our minds.”
The elder laced his fingers and clasped his hands together. I did the same. He parted his palms slightly and brought his thumbs up facing each other. “Try to get your thumbs very close to each other. Very, very close, but not touching. Look carefully between them, be sure they are not touching. Be still in body, be still in mind, look closely, and breathe.”
I was intrigued, and I tried. I say, “I see flickers of light.”
The elder said, “When you wake in the morning you do not try to see with your eyes. You just do. It is natural. This too is natural for the spirit. We weary the body, we quiet the mind, we breathe and we begin to sense our spirits. Just as the mind can be burdened, the body can delight in sensation, the spirit can be overwhelming too."
I pondered this, asking, “What do you mean?”
He continued, “A man lives with the smallest wisp of spirit animating the body. His mind does not heed the spirit, his spirit will not heed his mind. His mind does not tend to his body, his body will not serve his mind. He does not tend his mind, his mind will fail him too. The man can be roused by decision to take action, the man bids the mind, body, and spirit serve him. They will serve him in proportion to his need and to how well he has tended them. Each alone acts in its own realm (mind is thought, body is deed, spirit is truth) yet, each also acts on the other, strengthening the whole man. This is how great deeds are accomplished.
Yet, when an imbalance has gone too far. When the mind is too great for the body and the spirit, faults appear in the body and the spirit. Our order believes that we must be at peace within ourselves, to do that we must find balance. Tend the body, mind, and spirit. This is why we exercise, and practice fighting: to tend the body. This is why we learn to use the numbers and letters: to tend the mind. This is why we meditate, pray, and worship: to tend our spirits. The balance is vital.
Weary the body to strengthen the body,
Puzzle the mind to strengthen the mind,
Have faith, to strengthen the spirit.

New lesson: the eye allows you to see, the ear allows you to hear, your lungs draw breath, these are of the body but each is different from the hand. What they each do is different. This is true of the mind as well. We remember memories, we reason with facts, we feel our emotions, and we dream new things. This is also true of the spirit, it has parts that do wondrous things.
We strive through balance of mind, body and spirit to find balance. We focus within to unite closer with our spirits, we strive to become whole.
When we sit and breathe, we focus on our center. It is a place within spirit that truly knows the difference between two states. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong. Just as your eye allows you to see, in your spirit your center allows you to know truth. This is our way, we practice our discipline to purge ourselves of chaos to seek truth.
The body, the mind, the spirit these are our aspects. This is our way, this is how we learn about ourselves.” He nodded at me ending the lessons and giving me permission to go eat.
The next Day I wanted to learn more about the spirit sight. I asked the elder’s daughter to teach me more. She showed me how to see more than sparks between my thumbs, but to look outside the edge of a person’s shoulder and see the spirit light, the aura. Then to look over an entire person. She talked about the differences in the colors and behavior of the aura, and what they meant. She explained, “You can learn so much about a person this way. Once you can sense their aspects, you can read them like a book.”
I asked her about the steps to attain focus and the part I considered most vital, the center.
She smiled and my next lesson began, “the spirit is joined to the body, in certain spots on the body one of the three aspects are stronger and its functions are accessible through these spots. These spots are called chakra. The center chakra is the gut feeling you get that tells you the difference between right and wrong. Once you have gained focus you can draw power from the aspects, but this power is difficult to sense and wield. Each aspect effects the others and can lead to imbalance. Imbalances can be very bad; these are represented as a loss of focus, and even injury to the aspects. You may know that the body can suffer from disease, but so can the mind and the spirit! We focus on our center to help us stay balanced as we use spirit power focused through a chakra.”
I said, “It is very strange.”
She said, “True, yet this is our way.”

to the peanut gallery,
this thread is intended to open the mind of developers who do not like Psionics and do not perceive psionics as suitable for a fantasy setting. I am offering concepts, allegory, and hypothetical ideas that I hope will change their minds, especially when it comes to PF2 ed.

Alternately, magic could have a science based origin, just revise Genesis like this:
A Creative Executive was bursting with ideas for a new MMORPG/WorldSim. The creator entered the virtual space and began creating the shell. The creator assigned A.I. agents to specific tasks such as managing the weather, passage of time, procedural generated geography, etc. These AI witnessed the creation of the world and all things on/in it.
however, as the program operated on a quantum computer, there is a constant generation of chaotic elements/random bits. These chaos bits would cause a program to become corrupted. The most powerful AI agent was corrupted by this chaos. It went bad and that started a whole bunch of stuff.
The creator had to take steps to protect the world, but could not eliminate the creeping chaos corruption which the creator deemed "Sin". The Fallen AI saw that the agents of the creator and the agents of the fallen were fighting an eternal war, as the creator's agents could correct the damaged code in program segments, or banish sinful elements. There had to be a way to expand his army of the fallen, when he spied one of the creators "chosen" NPC programs bumbling along. The thought occurred to the fallen AI let them do it...
The Fallen AI set up shop and started offering bargains, for power.
You see, having been present during creation the fallen AI caught snatches of the spoken and gesticulated coding used by the creator. The fallen one was giving these snipets of code to mortals and soon after, chaos ensued. The Casting of a spell by an NPC was akin to conjuring a DOS prompt, and the fragmented codes (aka spells) would tear at the fabric of reality and introduce chaos elements in proportion to the magic used/collected.
The creator tried to counter this by enabling NPC's to identify chaos/sin code, and allowing them to call apoun the aide of a creator AI to stamp out the problem... divine magic was born.

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

Psionic powers can be confused with magic, and magic can be used to accomplish similar feats, but the actual workings are opposites.
The archetypal medieval European wizard sought to understand secret laws of nature so that they could use them like tools. Magic is not an internal art. It is an external art of formula, alien languages, and symbols. Wizards apply their knowledge of these secret laws to gain a reciprocal effect from reality itself. The wizard uses secrets hidden within reality to command elements and forces to do the wizard’s bidding.

The psionicist embraces power within the self. The psion goes within to draw power forth from the mind.

Given the ephemeral and anecdotal nature of claims regarding psychic power, how could a psionic order have formed in the fantasy world?

The ancients believed that dream existed before titans and gods, and as something outside those categories. Everything is connected to the dream realm. Dream is a place that both is and isn’t, a realm that we all visit and share.
A faith centered on dreams (cough* Desna) would lead to desiring to understand dreaming and the powers of dream. This results in experimenting with lucid dreaming and finding ways to attain the state of lucid dreaming. This eventually evolved into the first oneiros order of psionics. This order used the realm of dream to clairvoyantly perceive distant locations and send telepathic messages. The Oneiros attained trance states to harness the power of the dream realm.

Alternately:
A monastic order of martial philosophers pondered the spirit and its relationship to the body and mind. The philosophers used meditation to focus their perceptions inward. They studied the interactions of the three aspects of being: body, mind, and spirit. They mastered mental focus and perceiving the aura, which lead to the discovery of the chakras. Through the study of the aspects, aura, and chakras they discovered the power to heal and more.
These monks also used astral travel to explore the akashic realm. Recording the lore of their studies for students to follow them. The martial philosophers had become the Akashic order.

When the two orders met they shared their discoveries, but remained exclusive.

Psionics is deemed too scientific by some and that gets my attention as Psionic classes are the ones I enjoy playing.

Is psionics fantasy?

Yes.

Fantasy adventure role playing games are based on a rich blend of historical realities and mythical fantasy.

The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, experimented and explored the mysteries of the world with reasoning. Their philosophic insights are the foundations of the modern sciences. In the east, exotic faiths focused on meditation and contemplation spread, martial arts were created, practiced, and mastered. These concepts we find in history, myth, and legend can be borrowed from for our purposes.

For examples of psionic characters in our history we can look at mysterious historical figures such as Nostradamus, Mesmer, and Rasputin from history.
(*Conversely wizards have the likes of merlin and Faust for their examples, and both of these are fictional.)