Dr Grecko's page

Was he hiding his actions leading to evil from his familiar? That just seems odd, given the close nature of the bond. Not unreasonable, just odd. Seems like their empathic bond might tingle in some way.

Yes, anytime he needed to perform some obvious evil act, it was done so apart from the rest of the party and his familiar. Perfect example including the background on what happened is this:

As a side note, as was alluded to earlier, this wizard is in the process of transforming to lich, and as this campaign is finally wrapping up, there will be one more final battle between the rest of the party (my new character included) and this lich and his planar army.

It really has been fun to keep his deeds a secret, and he's been one of the most enjoyable characters I have ever played.. It will be a shame to have to kill him soon :)

We finally let the other players in on all the behind the scenes things that had been going on, but were only alluded to. Things like; Cursing enemy combatants at a tournament causing them to struggle giving our nation the edge in competition, Luring many women and children to their deaths, The sudden disappearances of important officials in enemy kingdoms. Our kingdom really thrived under this wizards "subtle" influence :)

Prodigious daily use of Mind Blank spell from a custom item in a campaign that provides way too much wealth by level.

I'll let the GM know that we probably err'd but that it shouldn't effect the story all that much. Now that the cat's out of the bag, she will sever the bond.

However, since time is on his side, said wizard may end up trying to capture said familiar and use a helm of opposite alignment on her before acquiring a new familiar. Could make for another fun twist to the story.

Sorry for the late response, but thank you all for your help. It seems pretty clear that an alignment shift should break the bond.

Now that it's clear that the Wizard has turned evil, the familiar will sever her bond with him.

That does bring up an interesting question though. Up until this point, it hadn't been clear to anyone in the party, familiar included, that the wizard had turned Neutral Evil (He was evil for over 5 years in game). Should the bond have remained while the wizard was continuing his ruse of being the original compatible alignment?

It certainly made for an interesting plot twist, that's for sure.

Just a side note: how did the rogue sarcastically almost kill someone? I feel like the wizard may have been in the right to attack the rogue for almost murdering an ally. Unless this cohort was an undead of course.

My cohort is a negative energy channeling cleric. The Rogue went invisible (improved invis cast by his bard cohort. He shoots arrows). The cleric double burst hitting the rogue twice. He yell'd at her to stop that..

Cleric moves to a new location and single bursts.. This time Rogue is fine, he's no longer in the way. However, next round the rogue moves within her range again, trying to get his point blank shot bonus, and the cleric thinking she's fine, double bursts, dropping the Rogue unconscious and bleeding out. The battle is also finished at this point as the enemy also dies.

The Ranger (best buds with the rogue) heard the Rogue drop and was able to locate him and force a potion down his throat saving his life. Rogue gets up, fires an arrow while still invisible at the Cleric and says, "Oops, didn't see you there." (Invisibility also drops at this point). The shot took well over half her HP. Wizard didn't take to kindly to that, and decided to cast finger of death on the rogue.. He makes his save, but it does enough damage to drop him again.. Afterward there was a mini-battle between the Rogue, Ranger, and Bard Cohort, vs the Wizard, Familiar, and his Cleric Cohort, while the good cleric tried to make peace and keep people from dying.

It was fun, and people would drop dead, come alive, drop dead again.... Breath of life had to be used on the rogue once.. Yet nobody managed to completely die before the wizard decided to teleport out of there and seek his revenge by destroying the town.

As the title suggests, can a Familiar voluntarily end it's bond with it's Wizard master?

The background on this is my once Chaotic Neutral Wizard had a Chaotic Good Lyrakien Azata familiar. Partly through a magically evil eyeball, along with the wizards desire to soon become a lich (within the next week), the wizard is now Neutral Evil, meaning their alignments are no longer compatible.

Now through many years in this campaign, the Neutral Evil wizard has been doing unspeakable things without the knowledge of the rest of the party or the wizards familiar. Said wizard has kept everyone in the dark about his true intentions.

This all finally came to a head, when the wizard finally snapped and attacked the party. (He was provoked when the party rogue sarcastically shot and nearly killed his cohort).

As punishment for this deed, the Wizard left them all stranded in the woods (including the Familiar), and set up an elaborate trap for the soon to return party members, and even completely destroyed the parties home base, killing many townsfolk in the process.

The wizards evilness is now on full display, and even the familiar can see this. However, the wizard will not release his bond with the familiar due to an ability he has to see through the familiar (at will), causing the familiar to be a perfect spy on the party. The party has not ditched the familiar yet meaning that the familiar is still of use to him. (It was ruled that the familiar is unaware when the wizard is using her as a spy)

So, as it stands, what we need to know, is if a familiar can release the bond on their own. Because she will soon discover that he is a lost cause (soon to be a lich) and will not be able to be turned back to the side of good.

If you can point to a rule on it great, otherwise, I'd still love to hear opinions on the matter.

Thanks!

With a return to her arrogance, the old woman says nothing to Tullius while she waits for the others to return. Should he attempt to engage in idle conversation, her answers are short, or non-existent.

When the others return she insists on speaking in a private location. "You have a room, do you not? We will discuss matters there."

Once you have found a private location she lowers her hood, revealing a jaundiced looking face with yellow eyes. She begins to speak while taking quick darting glances at each of you. "I'll get straight to the point I suppose. My name is Eries Yelloweyes. Last night, a mob of drunken Midlanders discovered a foolish Wererat prowling an alley in the streets above. In their misguided rage over trying to find anyone to blame for the plague, they executed the poor fool in the middle of midtown with a silver axe. A few of them even braved the sewers looking for more of our kind to kill" She pauses to see your reactions to her outing herself as a Wererat.

If the reactions are not overtly negative she will continue.

Her yellow eyes turn a bit angry. "I've seen it many times in my years. One small little outbreak and the government declares that they must purge the city of disease ridden rats. Sickening."

She calms her anger to continue. "Most of my kind have seen this before, and we are smart enough to leave our dens and hide elsewhere in the city, however this time is different. One young firebrand named Girrigz Ripperclaws refuses to go into hiding, and is calling upon his kin to start a war against the weakened humans above."

Continuing on, "He is a fool. His arrogance will get us all killed, as he can't possibly take on the might of korvosa, even at its weakened capacity. An attack on the city is all the excuse they will need to wipe us all out for good. What I need you to do, is to convince him it's not worth it. To show Girrigz what he's up against; an example of the force of the city should his rebelliousness continue."

"In exchange for your help I will give you information on what might be the true reason for Korvosa's plague. Do we have a deal?"

"Do you have any contacts in Racker's Alley or, given the rumors you've heard, do you have an idea of where we might start our investigation?"

Cressida Responds, "The alleyway isn't all that large. While it has several twists and turns that make it an ideal place for nefarious deeds, it won't take all that long to search the place. I'm guessing if the rumors are true you'll discover the answers pretty quickly."

"Has anything more been determined about that ship that was sank? ...like where it was coming from and who or what was aboard? Were there any survivors recovered?"

Cressida replies, Unfortunately no, with the ship at the bottom of the river, I'm afraid it will take some time before we know anything more about the ship. We just don't have the resources available to look into it right now"

"The barkeep at E-Walks Tavern indicated some of the carters that frequented there have stopped coming - perhaps those are the lazy saps carting from the north. Maybe he can give us some names, or at least some descriptions."

Cressida says, "That is a good place to start. He may be able to get you some names. Although, try to keep the names quiet, They will be easier to prosecute if we can catch them in the act. If they catch wind we're onto them, they may change tactics."

------
Back @ E-walks..

The bar is still empty. I assume you still want to ask your questions...

"Ah, good sir, you had mentioned there were carters that stopped frequenting your tavern... do you recall any names or faces of those individuals, and whether or not they were assigned to cart from the north end of the city?

"Have you heard any mention of Racker's Alley among the carters?"

"Is there anyone that's still coming here you think might know more?"

The bartender recalls some information that could be useful, "Well, its a few of them. Bocas, a blonde haired fella with a scar on his neck stopped coming in recently. Nice guy... To be honest, I get the feeling he just didn't like it when those physician guys would just stand watching him while he drank. I don't blame him really, those guys creep me out with those bird masks they wear all the time."

"Two others always would come in drinking too but recently stopped.. Ahh.. What the hell where there names... I think one was called Jacey or something like that. Both with brown hair... Each with a arrogant smug look on their faces. They never seemed interested in conversation with me, so I left them to their own devices. Terrible tippers.

"Bocas, I know was delivering from Old Korvosa. And I believe the others were as well from what I overheard. Although there was no mention of a Rackers Alley from any of them."

"We do get some carters still trickling in from time to time. Who knows what they know, you know?"

Dylan is able to get an update from the Bank from an aide to Ishani. The update is simply that there is nothing new to report.

---------

On your way to E-Walks, the smell of the dead rotting/burnt corpses from the Grey district has worked it's way up north. There are too many dead to bury individually, and that has prompted Delvarus to order mass graves to be dug, one per day, and the bodies burnt at the end of each night before the morning sun accelerates their decay. It isn't enough to keep the smell at bay however, especially when the winds drift north into the city.

You arrive at E-Walks to an empty tavern save for the bar-keep excited to see customers.

The man is eager to offer up information. You get the sense that he is uneasy about the lack of customers and having you here is a welcome distraction from that fact. He complains to you that the only customers he gets right now are those from the guard and the plague carters bringing the dead to the grey district. He says that even a few of the carters stopped showing up making his day even longer.

---

Upon meeting up with Cressida at the citadel, the Bar-keeps story starts to make sense. Cressida is exited to see you. "Please, come into my office. I have a job for you." She invites you into her familiar office, offers you a seat and gets down to buisness. "I've heard some disturbing rumors that some of the lazier northern plague carters aren't delivering their bodies to the Gray District as ordered, but are instead disposing of them in one of several secluded alleys. I need you to go to one of these alley's known as Racker's Alley and determine who among the guard is responsible."

..Stuff..

It's clear you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm positive others will understand my position without distorting my words. And re-wording myself, saying it a third time obviously wont help, so I'll just leave you with this as my final thoughts...

RAI trumps RAW. I believe RAI is to not round in this case, bringing it in line with EVERY OTHER ability in the game. Consistency, Amen!

If you say RAW trumps RAI, then I point out that RAW does not say you ABSOLUTELY must round in EVERY case. Quite the opposite. OCCASIONALLY the rules ASK you to round. Therefore I choose not to round in this case, since it does not ASK me to.

Either way, RAW or RAI I find this ability should not be rounded.

If I'm right, it should probably be Errata'd to clear things up.

If I'm wrong, a nice FAQ response would do a world of good.

So you're going with the "you don't round because the devs want to screw you over" theory? And you're asking me if I'm serious?

That's not what I'm saying at all. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "screwing" anybody over, and everything to do with consistent game design... I'll try to explain again.

Panache/Grit, is the ONLY game mechanic involving half/level for ANY Class, Monster, NPC, ect, where rounding helps them instead of hinders.

More examples:

A Clerics Channel Save DC is hindered by the 1/2 rule
The Save DC's against Oracle Revelations is hindered by the 1/2 rule

@ Dr Grecko - So what if the monsters are hindered? They are NPC's so hindering them helps the people actually playing the game. The monsters were screwed when CR became level - 1... which was actually done to give PC's the advantage... Which goes against your "the devs want to screw us" theory.

Again, missing the point here.. This has nothing to do with "devs wanting to screw us" and everything to do with "devs being consistent in game design".

The CR = Level - 1 is irrelevant to the consistent 1/2 argument so I wont bother addressing it.

Again I'll say that Panache/Grit is the ONLY exception (that I could find) to the 1/2 rule.. whether it's Players or GM's controlling the character/monsters is irrelevant. Do you SERIOUSLY think this was intentional?

Okay then show me where the rules tell me "when I have to" because, and this has been said many times In the case of the monk, the DC of his stunning fist can be 14.5. You don't have to round, you can leave it like that. A save of a 14 is lower than 14.5 so the save fails. A roll of 15 his higher than 14.5 so it succeeds. See it works exactly like panache.

The rules have been quoted dozens of times. "Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value."

This implies that it's not always necessary. "When I have to" is an abstract I used to define when it's necessary to do so.

In the case of stunning fist, you are calculating out a save DC. Save DC's use whole numbers, ergo, rounding is necessary.

In the case of determining whether something is greater or less than half a given level, no rounding is required to make this determination.

Completely different scenario's. They are far from exactly alike, as you claim.

I've clicked the FAQ, and will await a response. The argument is one I'd like to see an answer towards, because I do understand and even respect your argument. I just don't agree with it, as there is far too much grey area in this matter.

Rounding wrote:

Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3

These are instructions of how to round, on those occasions when you do round. Not instructions that you must round. The line 'Unless otherwise stated, always round down' is saying that when you round always round down! Not 'always round'.

And when it says, 'For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3', this is an example of how rounding works (there's a clue in the title!), not how division works.

I've had my share of arguments with Malachi before, but this time I agree with him, and this quote is spot on. There is absolutely no reason to round in this scenario. The rules explain how to round when you have to, but IMO, you do not have to here.

Getting to the Citadel proves to be easier than Ishani feared. While a couple of brave patrons attempt to beg you for healing, none are persistent enough to press the issue. Without a mob to back them up, they eventually let you pass.

When you finally reach the Citadel, the guards at the gate open the doors for you. "Ahh! my friends, it is good to see you. Quickly, inside... You'd better hurry if you want to meet the queens physicians. A meeting with the guard is underway right now!"

"Really!" Ishani exclaims. "This I have to see"

Assuming you don't delay and try to catch this meeting, you enter the citadel.

The echoes of forcefully spoken but still just-missed words resound off the imposing granite and iron walls of Citadel Volshyenek’s outer curtain. Dozens of red-and-silver-armored guards stand in assembly upon the pitted stone mustering ground here, mumbling in hushed, somber tones. Before them, atop a weathered wooden platform, paces Field Marshal Kroft, her eyebrows arched sternly as she momentarily tolerates the crowd’s murmurs. Behind her upon the scaffold stand three grizzled veteran guardsmen at attention, as well as an ominous-looking group. These men wear cowled robes of oily-looking leather, supple gloves, and wide black hats. Some grip heavy canes, others dark satchels. Each of them, though, wears a dark-goggled mask tapering to a pointed beak. Among them stand two others. The first is a middleaged gentleman in a simple black overcoat with streaks of white gracing the sides of his short dark hair. He watches the gathered guards with a soft, concerned expression, his hands tightly clasping a heavy-looking doctor’s case. The second figure is an imposing one indeed—a woman dressed in full-plate armor, a longsword and shield at her side, and her blank-faced full helm sporting a bright red plume.

The Field Marshal’s fierce tone cuts through the rumble of whispers. “You will escort Doctor Davaulus and his men in their royal duties wherever those might take them. Furthermore, you are to consider orders from any of the queen’s new order of Gray Maidens to be as binding as any superior officer in the Korvosan Guard or Sable Company. You are guardsmen of Korvosa. You will not balk. These are dire times and your city needs these healers. Your city needs you. Your patrol leaders have your assignments. Dismissed!”

As the assembly ends, the guardsmen gathered in the courtyard break up into groups, many reporting for various duties while others loiter for a few moments to quietly gripe about their new orders. The armored woman, one of the queen’s aforementioned Gray Maidens, quickly organizes the guards, silencing bickering words with harsh commands and assigning orders for the day. Kroft and her veteran attendants begin to head into the citadel offices with Dr. Davaulus and his Queen’s Physicians.

You can catch them if you hurry. Or you can probe other guardsmen for information.

QUEENS PHYSICIAN PICTURE
GREY MAIDEN PICTURE
DR. DAVAULUS PICTURE

Wonderful guide Painlord. I was exited to see that I'm using a lot of the techniques you describe. A lot of what I do was built from necessity. I didn't have the opportunity to do PbP as a player first before jumping into the arena as GM, and it took a while to really find what works.

Some of the things in your guide that I also do, like rolling the players initiatives for them... Creating round summaries (which includes hp & status changes) are things that for me evolved out of necessity for my own sanity.

I also found some suggestions that I may want implement as well. I do have a couple less experienced gamers that I think could benefit from "(5.3) Have new Players" quite a bit.

I also think I could also do a better job of "pushing" my players towards possible actions instead of leaving things completely open ended. So far, my experienced players keep the action moving, but the less experienced ones have trouble taking or deciding actions. And often delay posting because they don't know what they should do.

Some things from your guide that I second:

(5.6) Combat Modifiers - For a long time, I was going crazy trying to figure out what effects were in place when someone rolled. I implemented out of necessity this section so I could keep everything strait, and make adjustments if something was not right with them. Again, this really helps the less experienced players keep track of their players effects.

(5.10) Round Recap - For both the players and GM's sake, this really helps to keeps things organized and focused. I also add damage taken and status effects... HERE is an example of how I do my round recaps with damage counter. I usually like to add a bit more flair in the round recaps than this example, but I was low on time. It doesn't have to be flashy as long as it gets the job done.

(4.2.5) GMPC - Occasionally this is needed. I'll post actions for a player if there is too long a delay from them, or I talk to them via Google Hangouts and they tell me what to post for them. However, if there is going to be a longer delay, consider having another player take up the surrogate role for the player. Our group has one player who can't post with us that is currently being run by another player.

(3.1) Consistency - I can't second this enough. Consistency is key to good game-flow. Even more-so from the GM. I find when I stay consistent, my players are more consistent... Let your players know ahead of time your regular posting schedule, and try to stick to that. If there is going to be a longer delay (holidays and what-not), let them know.

-------

If there is one thing I might add to your guide it would be:

(x.x) Setup a Information Repository - PbP games can go on for years. It's helpful to everyone if the GM set's up a repository of information relevant to the games environment.

Again, it was something that I more recently started creating, so it's not as developed as I would like. I place my repository information in my GM profile (Warning, contains Curse of the Crimson Throne Spoilers) LINK

Note how I keep both a Korvosa map and Varisia map in the profile as well as descriptions of some of the people they've met along the way. When a player wants to go talk to someone that in game time, they met a week ago, but in real time, met six months ago, they can look up the information here.

I plan on expanding this as much as possible to keep important information available to both players and myself, as it can be easy to lose track of what's what over the course of a game.

---

All in all, I love your guide, and nice work!

Somebody posted a great guide on PbP gaming the other day. I have to say there is a ton of good information in it for both GM's and Players alike when it comes to making good PbP games.

Gonna leave a link to it here so I remember where to find it. You're welcome to read as well. While it's written mainly to GM's there is some good player info as well.

Painlord's Guide to PbP GMing: Make Your World a Better Place

Trinia responds, "I couldn't tell exactly who was speaking up at the execution. Everything was such a blur. Blackjack brought me here after our escape, told me Vencarlo was trustworthy and a good person. That he would look after me. I'm bored out of my mind here in hiding, but at least I'm safe."

Vencarlo chimes in, "Which brings me to the reason why I've summoned you here." He remains standing as he delves into his request.

"I was no more than a moment into my rest that fateful night when I received a knock on my door. Imagine my surprise to find that rogue Blackjack and this poor woman. Blackjack was quick with his words, and then soon swooped off, entrusting Miss Sabor into my protection and care. Although I don’t know Blackjack’s motives or politics, I trust his judgment and have seen much right done by his blade. He says the girl is innocent of the crime she’s been accused of, and I’m more disposed to trust a hero of the city than the tantrums of some bloody-minded harlot playing at queen."

"The matter is simple: Korvosa is no longer safe for Miss Sabor. I’ve arranged for friends in Harse—a couple of well respected ranchers—to take in our beautiful renegade until this whole ‘assassination’ foolishness blows over. It's in this first leg of the journey where we find our problem, though. Both the Korvosan Guard and the Sable Company have been searching for the young lady tirelessly. They've stopped by here three times so far, and each time I've only just barely been able to turn them away without inviting a complete search. My most reliable contacts have gone to ground in light of the recent uprisings, and Her Highness’s considerable bounty for Trinia's capture makes the use of new agents inadvisable. Thus, after some time to let her trail cool, I turned to you. Care to escort a lady home?"

Grid Suits:: 9d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 2, 6, 2, 3, 1, 5, 4) = 28
Grid Alignment:: 9d9 ⇒ (3, 5, 4, 9, 9, 3, 5, 7, 5) = 50

Ralof tells you all the explicit details of his tale of Harrow, vividly describing each suit and alignment as the cards were placed. He describes with perfect clarity the visions in his head. When his tale comes to a close, you feel a renewed vigor.

You all receive 4 Harrow Points (Previously unused Harrow points are lost)

For this book, your Harrow Points are that of "The Shield", which effect constitution. You may use your harrow points for these purposes:

Constitution Rerolls: Spend a Harrow Point to reroll any one Fortitude saving throw, Concentration check, or other Constitution-based d20 roll. You must abide by the new result (although if you have additional Harrow Points remaining, you can use them to attempt additional rerolls).

Fast Hit Point Recovery: Spend a Harrow Point after resting for a minute to catch your breath and recover from your recent ordeals—you heal a number of hit points equal to your class level and 1 point of ability damage (but not ability drain) each time you do so. You may spend a Harrow Point in this manner once after each encounter.

Damage Reduction: Spend a Harrow Point to gain damage reduction 3/—. This damage reduction persists for the duration of the encounter in which you spent the Harrow Point.

I prefer sorcerers because you don't have the spell book weakness.

If you lose that as a wizard your stuck putting read magic in all your slots as that is the only spell that most wizards can prepare from memory.

The spell book weakness is overrated. If your GM is the kind of guy to go after your book, then he's a very spiteful GM. It'd be no different from stealing all the fighters gear.

Still, if it is a concern, there are ways to mitigate the risk.. Backup spellbook, bookplate of recall, secret chest, spellbinder archetype with Locate Object.

Basically, being afraid of losing something should never be a consideration when choosing a class to play. If a GM wants to screw you over, they will, regardless what class you are playing.

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Here's the spell power ala 'power points' comparison between sorc, wizard and sorceror. I'm assuming the same casting stat at every level, ending in a 34 at 20th.

It doesn't end well for wizards...the amount of spell slots every sorceror gets are generally more then enough to compensate for being a level behind.
Laid out starkly like this in terms of raw power, it's easy to see why sorcs SHOULD be a level behind a wizard...they just have so much more then can do over the course of a day.

Spell Power
CLev 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020
Sorc 004 005 006 015 018 032 037 058 065 092 101 130 145 179 192 237 252 314 331 361
Wizd 002 003 007 010 017 022 031 040 052 064 079 090 112 125 146 167 191 226 242 271
Spec 003 004 010 013 023 028 041 050 067 079 100 111 140 153 182 203 236 271 287 316
SinM 004 005 013 016 029 034 051 060 082 094 121 132 168 181 218 242 281 316 332 361

The Wizard has more spell levels/day then a Sorc at level 3…and that's it. They end up with 25% less spell levels/day then a sorcerer. Sheer number of spell slots means sorcs should be trying to blow spell slots frequently just to use them up...Quicken and swift spells are a sorc's friends.

The Specialist fares somewhat better. They are ahead at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9…but then the sheer amount of spells and bonus spells castable by sorcs is more then their +1/level can catch up to, and they fall behind, finishing about halfway between sorcs and wizards.

A Thassilonian Sin Magic Mage would finish with EXACTLY the same number of spell/day as a sorcerer, but would be ahead or tied for almost all levels. Probably a wee bit overdone, even lacking two or three schools.

==Aelryinth

At some point.. spells per day becomes overkill. If I truly needed 15 spells per hour for 24 hours straight at level 20, something went seriously wrong.

Even at level 11 where sorcs finally catch up to a spec wizards spells per day advantage, were talking 10 spells per encounter for 10 straight encounters. Plain overkill if you ask me.

The REAL power comes from the wizard being 1 spell level ahead of the sorc on nearly all odd levels. The wizard is playing with powers the sorc cannot comprehend on levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17.

At 5th level, having to cast 4-5 resist energy spells (lv2), wastes ALL of the sorcs power, while the wizard calmly sits back and casts 1 resist energy (Communal) (lv3). And then uses his other level 3 spell and ALL of his level 2 spells beating the encounter.

I've made my opinion clear on your other threads too before. Just thought I'd make it here as well.

Again, don't get me wrong.. Sorcs are powerful on paper, but, IMO Wizards are more powerful in practice. That being said. You can't go wrong with either one.

It was just my assumption that it would get shut down quickly since it's pretty much a re-hash of the previous thread. I stayed out of it to avoid tainting the results... I lost :)

Anyway. That seems to be the problem.. The threads never really were about answering the topic questions. The debates are end up turning into something entirely different.

The answer to, "Do improvised weapons threaten?" is unequivocally, Yes.

But, the thread isn't about that anymore.. It's about what IS an improvised weapon.

In the previous thread, it turned to "Can weapons be improvised weapons?" rather than the topic question concerning reach.

I do take issue to the way the topic questions skirt around the real issue.

A rope and grappling hook are different objects you even purchase them separately so that is a false analogy. Just like a spell that targets Orcs can target a Half-Orc because he counts as both. Items like full plate that are constructed of significant amounts of different materials count as both of those materials. It is one single object, Full Plate, that is made of leather and is made of metal (and whatever else full plate is made of).

Interesting thought. Does a grappling hook cease to be a weapon once a rope is attached to it?

Again you are rejecting anything that is not explicitly stated. The rules implicitly tell us what an object is. The rules don't have to define every single English word as if we don't speak the language.

If I were to go to NY city with my Glock 17 and got arrested for carrying a handgun illegally I could not argue with the police that "I am not carrying a handgun. I'm just carrying a slide, barrel, recoil spring, firing pin, trigger components, magazine, etc... and all the parts for a gun and the law doesn't stop me from carrying gun parts just a gun."

Likewise, when you are attempting to use an actual weapon with the improvised weapons rules it is assinine to say "No I am not using a long spear I am using a long spear shaft and a long spear head and the rules don't keep me from using either of those as an improvised weapon"

A weapon is the sum of it's parts. That doesn't mean that once assembled, the individual parts no longer exist. You are carrying both the gun and it's parts. You are carrying a spear and it's parts.

If you don't use the gun as designed by firing it, you can improvise with it as a bludgeoning weapon. If you don't use the spear as intended you improvise with a bash.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Well, the rules don't support you. The rules for an attack with a spear are just that. There is no rule for attacking with a spear point, only for attacking with a spear.

The rules don't differentiate between attacking with different parts of weapons, unless they say they do (double weapons, some special abilities/feats). Therefore, according to the rules, there is no attack with the point or the shaft or the butt, only with 'the spear'.

So the longspear stats are the game rules for that attack, including Reach preventing attacks versus adjacent targets.

The rules do, in fact, support me.

There are rules for attacking with a spear point, or a spear haft (or even a ceremonial spear as has been pointed out). It's called the Improvised weapon rules.. a spear point would be similar to a dagger. It's an improvised dagger.

These are the undeniable facts that you have failed to refute throughout this debate.

Apparently we'll just have to wait for a DEV respons.... Again... Because the first one apparently wasn't enough for you.

I'm not going to convince you, and you aren't going to convince me.

New Plan. Tie a quarterstaff to your longspear... problem solved.. and no improvised penalty.

1) I repeatedly refuted that claim by showing that except in special situations the rules treat weapons as single objects (I have given evidence for this multiple times in previous posts so you can review that evidence there)

Again, Pathfinder does not have a definition for object, therefore, you must abide by dictionary definition. A weapon is an object, composed of objects. Your position is untenable.

2) I have pointed you that only objects not intended as weapons can be improvised with and that even the spears haft is intended as a weapon.

Separate the haft from the tip and your position falls apart. The haft of a spear is not intended to be a weapon.

3) Ergo your conclusion is not supported by your premises.

Wrong. It most certainly is supported by the premises.

Furthermore, JJ did not say "Yes, you can". He said "I guess, technically" which does not equal "Yes, you can". His statement was very inconclusive in that he followed "I guess, technically" with statements that it shouldn't be allowed.

In what universe does "I guess, technically you could" not mean yes you can?

When I say: "Technically, you could, but the concept makes me nervous."

That means, unequivocally, "Per the rules, it's allowed, but I'm not sure I like it."

---

I would like to say that nothing short of a dev response would convince you, but obviously not. Which is why I should have just heeded my own advice and let the thread die. Unfortunately, I love train-wrecks.

Bogus arguement. Where do the rules say to give higher precedence to the combat rules? Chess has no rule about which hand may touch a piece while pathfinder DOES have rules about how to sleep. You say "nobody cares" about how to fall asleep naturally, I say there is no such thing as natural sleep in pathfinder.

Also, the rules say that anything "not crafted to be a weapon" may be used as an improvised weapon. So I use my ceremonial spear, which is exactly the same as every other spear, and make both regular spear attacks and improvised attacks. That is undeniably RAW.

He doesn't get it, he doesn't want to get it. The sooner people stop responding, the sooner the thread goes away.

Was there an attack roll? Did you deal damage?

Under these ridiculous assertions, you would be required to, yes. Because apparently, using a weapon for any other purpose than as a weapon is invalid.

Once you cease using a weapon in its intended fashion, IMO it ceases to be a weapon, and is now an object. Via improvised weapon rules, you can then use that object as a weapon. If I hold it the opposite way, I have a blunt spear.. if I hold it like a staff double weapon, then its a double weapon with a spearhead on one end and a blunt stick on the other...

As long as you can reasonably wield the weapon in the manner you wish to improvise with, then by all means, improvise with it. It seems to be deliberately going out of ones way to prevent something that quite frankly isn't strictly prohibited by the rules. Apply some common sense when interpreting rules people.

Player: "I use the back end of my spear to get the governors attention"
DM: "I'm sorry, you can only use the pointy end, and you've just now stabbed the governor"

The Thief Camp to the north of east-shore is comprised of displaced Shoanti and Varisians that no longer feel the urge to travel. Being outside the city walls, they are not subject to Korvosan Laws or protections, and as such often resort to theft within the city to survive.

They have no known affiliation with the cities thieves guild, known as the Cerulean Society.

Basically my question is, what use is prescience for a divination wizard?

As a foresight specialist who carries with him no martial weapons what-so-ever the answer to your question about what it would be used for is simple, EVERYTHING.

Seriously. using it to overcome SR is my #1 usage. Other than that, I use it for skill checks, touch attacks, saving throws... Basically, If you roll a d20, use prescience... and proceed to count your win.

A foresight wizard is perhaps the strongest of the sub-schools. High Initiative and ability to pre-roll makes them deadly.

I agree with what the others said. An archery based wizard is sub-optimal when compared to one focused on spells. That being said... The ability to pre-roll is great for that build too.

You really cant go wrong with Foresight.

*Edited to emphasize pre-roll vs re-roll.

A reminder of what your Harrow Points can do

Dexterity Rerolls: Spend a Harrow Point to reroll any one Initiative check, Reflex save, attack roll modified by Dexterity, or Dexterity-based skill check. You must abide by the new result (although if you have additional Harrow Points remaining, you can use them to attempt additional rerolls).

Dodge Bonus: Spend a Harrow Point to gain a +1 Dodge bonus to your Armor Class for one encounter. You can spend up to 3 Harrow Points per encounter to increase your Armor Class in this manner.

Speed Increase: Spend a Harrow Point to increase your base speed by 10 feet for one encounter—you cannot spend multiple Harrow Points to increase your speed multiple times in one encounter.

You have 3 to use during the entire first book. Ryder's already used 2 of his (still a long way to go)

Here's how you update a Map.
First, Go to the current map that someone recently posted (Use google chrome because Internet Explorer doesnt work).

An example of Said Map: CURRENT MAP

Now.. Move some things around.. Like where do you want to be on the map. When you have the map the way you want it to look.. Press Enter

It should now generate a whole new link that you can copy and paste on this website. To do a URL link do this:
{url=http://beta.ditzie.com/46757/5255c8164d921} CURRENT MAP {/url}

Just paste the link right after the url=

as always use the [] instead of {}.
-------------------
A few features of the map.
1) You can Shrink and Enlarge a token by holding SHIFT when you click and move it.
2) You can change the transparency of an image if you double click it and move the slider.
3) You can lock images from the same double click menu.

Those are the main options that you will be using.. In addition, there are ways to browse through other peoples images to add to the map. I plan on showing you where to access a folder called "Shapes" that I found which has templates for your area spells.

I've been part of games that ran XP individually, some that removed XP entirely, and some that ran it as Group XP. Personally, I like the Group XP the best. Nobody is punished if they miss a session, and the party still gets to keep track and if they do something interesting, could get some bonus XP.

So to the OP, I'd recommend just bumping them up to 6th, no harm no foul. And, consider going a group XP method.

There would have been combat.

Had I not won initiative.

Or is there something in RAW that states once dice have been rolled for initiative all opponents must be beaten unconscious or killed?

We're arguing semantics here. Combat™ was started once initiative was rolled, but then you ended it with social skills instead of a blade (although as others have pointed out, you couldn't do that in the 6 seconds you had)

No, I understood your argument.

I just wondered what actually happens. Do those people who think wizards are much better than rogues and fighters find that nobody plays rogues or fighters in favor of multiple wizards?

I wouldn't think that multi-wizard parties are that common, no. I'm trying to think back over the years to remember if we've ever had more than 1 of the same class in any of our games.

Usually, we all discuss before hand. "Oh, you're gonna play a fighter... Cool, I'll play a Barbarian instead".

I would think that if we wanted to do a mage that replaces a rogue, we wouldn't play them as a straight wizard. Probably some sort of arcane trickster, or at the very minimum, a level dip or two into rogue to get the trap-finding and class skills started.

So allow me to rephrase my question: What's a better combination to have in a party - a Rogue and a Wizard who has all the spells that let him "replace" the Rogue but precious few others, or a Rogue and a Wizard who has a broader and more versatile selection of spells?

There's a third option: A wizard with rogue replacing spells and a normal wizard.

Therenis no such thing as a 100% clear human language. Language relies too much on common perspective between conversation participants. Well it's not possible to have perfectly matched perspective, even twins have slight differences in perspective. So how can it be expected to have a very large number of people share the exact same perspective?

You make an excellent point. It can't be expected that everyone will share the same perspective. There will always be an oddball who sees the language differently than the majority.

I think these forums give a good indication of areas where there is a broader range of confusion. I also love the fact that the dev's read these boards, give their opinions and issue errata / FAQ's when necessary.

When they comment or give out an FAQ. Then we as players know what the RAI is for unclear or conflicting RAW. It sure beats having to guess what was intended.

@ Dr Grecko You actually are trying to hash it up again, so do so with specifics rather than implication. I find it much easier to refute what I actually say rather that what people say I am saying. If you are going to accuse me of something, have the courtesy of actually doing so.

If you're really interested, see page one. Otherwise, I suggest we move on...

As to RAW, I find RAW is a mythical beast that always seems to conveniently match what the person who swears it is RAW says it it.

Only ambiguous RAW does that. Which is entirely my point. Clear up the ambiguity and nobody would have an issue.

@Lemmy - So your bishop moves vertically...

I missed the whole chess analogy earlier, but after reading it, what you are missing is that "Chess" defines the world that chess operates in. Chess has 64 squares and it's peieces can only move in the ways determined by the rules.

Pathfinder/DnD ect.. Start from an entirely different premise. They start with the assumption that you are in the "real" world... You breath air, you are dead when you die, you walk using your feat and not your tongue. These are the assumptions that we as players have to make before we even start reading the rulebook.

The book then modifies "reality" using the rules provided. Yes, that means sometimes people take an ambiguous rule and apply "real world" implications to those rules.

Try to keep an open mind that when people take an ambiguous rule and apply a liberal reading to it, they are not "wrong" in doing so. Pathfinder takes reality and adds an top of it, people are bound to see how far that reality bending goes.

@Dr Grecko - For house rules.

Not for rules.

EDIT: Also, where is the intent for the grease spell to be flammable?

No, for ANY rule, house or otherwise. You can't (to paraphrase) say intent trumps specific in one breath and then say specific trumps intent in the next, without someone calling you out on it. If you're flexible enough a GM to say, for (poor) examples, the grease spell can be set on fire. Don't be surprised when I turn around and ask if ray of frost can freeze water.

While I prefer the RAW, All I truly ask of my GM is consistency.

I like to use the toolbox vs multi-tool analogy, since I never watched much MASH.

A sorc is a lot like those fancy electric multi tools. Provided the job requires one of those tools, it makes the job a ton easier. The problem comes when you meet a job not designed for the tool. You can improvise and still get the job done, but it wasn't optimal.

The Wizard is a lot like a toolbox. Sure, the tools are manual and it may be easier to do with an electric multi-tool, but you can still get the job done provided you packed the right tools for the job. The problem comes when you don't know what job you need to prepare for. You can improvise and still get the job done, but it wasn't optimal.

Me, I prefer the toolbox over the multi-tool. I'll toss in an electric drill (preferred spell: dragons breath) into the toolbox to make the jobs that require a drill a bit easier to complete, and Sorcs will bring some hand tools with them just in case. But, for me, I prefer the toolbox wizard.

The problem here isn't with the spell itself. It's with the party. This party makeup you described makes maximum use of Haste.

This is no different than a Fireball used on a group of 30 monsters vs a fireball used on 1. Your heavy melee/archery group is perfectly setup to maximize hastes potential.

With the group you have, Haste SHOULD be the number one option to cast. Put in a more typical group of Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue and suddenly haste becomes a secondary or even tertiary option.

Changing group haste to a 6th level spell to me makes it worthless for the typical group. I'd save my 6th level spells and single target the Fighter instead.

Your solution makes the spell un-usable IMO.

I always thought that the 50 pounds of objects was objects in addition to the creatures normal gear.

Sovereign Glue is thick and viscous, not really something that can used as a splash weapon, it's more like tar.
And nothing in the description says that the flask is breakable, in fact it needs a special flask just to keep the glue from hardening inside the flask.

This was my opinion as well. If we look at the carrying capacity section, they split encumbrance into two sections: "Encumbrance comes in two parts: encumbrance by armor and encumbrance by total weight."

I think the intent is to include worn armor/gear as part of ones "self", and to limit his transporting with other carried objects.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

Gatorade vs Water

Dr Grecko wrote:

strayshift wrote:

Agree totally but a human or half-elf sorcerer can still achieve a sufficient degree of spell choice with ALL the added benefits.

Agreed. If I was looking for versatility in my sorc.. I'd pick Human all the way for extra spells known. The Paragon surge thing would never fly with my DM.

I might - Half-Elves need all the love they can get.

Probably. I don't think we've had a half-elf but maybe once in our entire time gaming. So maybe it would give them a boost.

Even so, it's sketchy as to whether or not the combo works as well as advertised. I know many point to the "Once made, these choices cannot be changed." line in expanded arcana to argue that subsequent uses of the combo result in the same spell known and not a new one.

The source is the sorcerer's own experience. Any spell he has ever seen, been affected by, or has personal knowledge of.

I agree with the typical usage being out of combat. Until you run into a situation where having just the right spell can end the encounter. If that "perfect" spell is of 4th level or lower, you have it.

The pages of spell knowledge are used at higher level. Rather than purchase scrolls for situational spells, you purchase the pages and always have the spells available. They are essentially extra spell slots for the sorcerer.

I disagree on the the source as their personal experience. What you're trying to tell me is that a sorc sees a spell cast once, then knows it so well they can now teach a ring the spell (provided they make the spellcraft check). If he knows it so well he can now teach a ring, why would he need the ring in the first place.

I see it differently. I see the two requirements as needing to be fulfilled at the exact moment the sorc teaches the spell into the ring. If you have a scroll, it's as easy as holding the scroll and making the check. If you have access to another spellcaster or active spell, you can do it then.

Given the nature of what the ring is doing. It makes more sense to read the "through study", as to having access to the spell at the time it goes into the ring. Like I said, great to have scrolls around with the ring as you wont need to burn your scrolls, but "seeing" a spell once would not be enough. And if one of my players tried to pull that, I would say, fine, you train the ring, unfortunately, there is no "retrain" mechanism in the item description, so you get that spell and that one only for this ring.

As far as spell knowledge pages.. They cost 40 times more than a wizards scrolls. And If I ever need a spell 40 or more times, I think a wand would be a better option. Scrolls are essentially extra slots for wizards at 1/40th the price.

That said ... it's an NPC. They don't have to be restricted by the same rules as PCs. You want him to quick D-Door out, he quick D-Doors out.

My first experience DM'ing back in 3.5 days, I pulled something similar to this. A pleasant argument then ensued about "breaking" the rules that the rest of the group had to abide by. I never tried to pull something like that again.

While it can be cinematic for NPC's to pull off miraculous stunts like this, I think it breaks your players confidence in you as a DM. I would recommend not doing this. Instead just 5 foot step and D-Door. Or pump up his concentration check if he gets grappled by your players so he can pull off a D-Door to escape.

.02

And while showing up in your underwear might make you great as long as the spells you memorized last, your gonna pretty dang useless without that spellbook of yours tomorrow

Oh he has his spellbook... I'll let you guess where it's hidden :)

Before I started playing the other three decided that they would ignore the AoO rules as they felt it dragged the combats out too long. At least that is what they *say* the reason is.

I've never had a problem with AoO's dragging down combat speed. The general goal of combat is to take away enemy hit-points before they take away yours. If anything, AoO's speed up that goal. If you want to speed up combat, I would suggest dropping combat maneuvers instead of AoO's. That's where the real slowdowns happen.

Perhaps you should run Stealth a bit differently than you've been running it. Take the following line in the stealth section:

Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.

I would take this to mean that once there is a possibility of the person being detected, both the observer and the stealther make their rolls. Your other option is to have him roll stealth checks for each round of movement, but that would be quite tedious. Generally, if he declares he's going to stealth through the Forrest, have him make the roll at the time he might be noticed.

However, there is a second aspect that I would consider allowing them to re-roll. If the player wishes to find a hiding spot and remain stealthed while awaiting someone to come by, I would allow as many re-rolls as he has time for (or take 20), and once in that location as long as they remained stationary, they can keep that stealth roll.

So, in short: If the PC is moving, have him make the stealth roll when you make the perception roll, when stationary, he can re-try as much as he see's fit.

Hey Jadeite,

Love your guide. For your multi-classing section you could also add Barbarian to the list provided the inquisitor is either anger inquisition or Rage Domain spec'd. I would suggest Anger Inquisition as you get Effective Barbarian Levels quicker.

2 levels of Barbarian, in which you could pick several archetypes, but I would suggest armored hulk for heavy armor prof, or wild rager for an extra bonus attack, and then 9 levels Anger Inquisition Inquisitor can have some really nice benefits for an intimidate based build.

The rage powers Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl can be bought with the Extra Rage Power feat at the proper levels and is well worth the feat.

Use Blistering Invective (AOE Intimidate) as standard in round 1, Enter Rage and Intimidating Glare as your free/move action if someone is still not intimidated, then follow up round 2 with Terrifying Howl (AOE Intimidate that panics shaken enemies), and now all those shaken enemies are now panicked, dropping their weapons and running away (while still on fire. muahaha)

Plus if the group consists of other barbarians, then the teamwork feat Amplified Rage is a must have.

I would recommend using the free level 2 barbarian rage power on moment of clarity so you can take a moment to cast spells if you need to.