Sovereign glue and teleportation (again, but different scenario)

Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

If a caster was stuck fast to the ground via sovereign glue, could he teleport away? Or would he be stuck fast, unable to teleport?

I could see his boots remaining behind, stuck the the ground.

The bigger question is how did the caster get glued to the ground, since that seems more complicated.

Grand Lodge

well it's a boots.

A character wants to throw it at the ground at his feet. Devil will likely try to teleport away.

Grand Lodge

The devil is standing on a dirty plain in the worldwound. A rogue wants to pour out the sovereign glue on the feet of the devil (Baal), taking the AoP.

Question is, can the devil use teleport...does he teleport away with gravel and dirt attached to his feet as well. Or is the spell auto-failed?

What if the devil was on a stone wall, would part of the wall go? Wouldn't this be a strength check or something, since stone would be hard to break?

If he did have boots, could a caster even choose to not teleport his stuff? Would this extend to a caster being on fire, using teleport to get away from the fire too, or would the fire follow the caster?

what's the ground made of? boards or paving stones are still likely within the devil's teleport weight limit, so he'd likely take those along and be annoyed that he had to go find universal solvent.

if it's solid rock, then he could attack the ground to break himself loose, then teleport.

it is a neat plan, but not one that should negate teleport indefinitely.

Grand Lodge

What if a 600 pound creature covers himself in glue then leaps onto the devil? The devil lists that only 50 pounds or less can be teleported. Seems like this would effectively prevent the expense of the creature.

The rogue has a clay golem he is now asking about- he wants to coat the front of the golem with the glue and have him grapple the devil. They are acting in the surprise round.

Since the glue takes one round to set, and if the golem succeeds his grapple, would this mean the glue has set and one round has passed by the time it is the actual devil round to act in?

A hole host of other issues come to mind- golem sovereign glued to devil- permanent grapple situation!

If the golem has glue on his chest, and simply wanted to touch his chest to the devil, would this be a touch attack or grapple attack? Grapple seems much more strict, but touch attack seems too less for an action such as this...

I have also noticed this: the greater teleport ability the devil has says himself and 50 lbs or less of objects. he is wearing chainmail, which weighs more the 50 lbs. does this mean his chainmail has to stay if he teleports away in a basic use of teleportation?

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, Teleportation spells can be used to escape grapple so I think that Sovereign Glue would not prevent teleportation.
It would prevent movement though.
Still, 1 round to apply and then 1 round to affix means that your surprise round would be over by the time it was applied.
If the golem had glue on his chest it would be a grapple check to attach the demon.

Wouldn't it just be a touch attack to touch the devil with a glue covered body part?

Chainmail only weighs 40 lbs, not more than 50. So he's within his weight limit.

Sovereign glue takes a full round to set, not just one persons turn. That's a full 6 second round, from one initiative count on one turn to the start of that same initiative count on the next turn and if the objects are separated the glue is wasted. I would say its virtually impossible to pull this off without the Devil separating himself from the object, especially by just teleporting away.

In fact that's exactly what will happen if the devil remains conscious. You spread the glue on the ground with him or on the golem, the devil either steps or moves away or if otherwise restrained teleports himself away. Unless you can render him unconscious he will separate himself on his turn because he's not stupid. This can't possibly work unless you can make him unconscious first, in which case you could probably kill him at that time and wouldn't need the glue.

Baal is listed as a large creature, that would mean his bronze chainmail is large sized. Large sized bronze chainmail weighs 80 pounds. The chainmail could not be taken with him if he teleported away.

To foil the setting of the glue, Baal would have to take a move action as per the description of sovereign glue. Here is an excerpt from the item's entry:

"One ounce of this adhesive covers 1 square foot of surface, bonding virtually any two substances together in a permanent union. The glue takes 1 round to set. If the objects are pulled apart (a move action) before that time has elapsed, that application of the glue loses its stickiness and is worthless. If the glue is allowed to set, then attempting to separate the two bonded objects has no effect, except when universal solvent is applied to the bond. Sovereign glue is dissolved by universal solvent."

Note that in the surprise round, Baal cannot take an action, he is caught by surprise and the player character and/or allies will act only. That means he cannot take that move action to foil the setting of the glue. Once the surprise round is over, initiative is rolled to begin the next round. If the player character that poured the glue wins initiative, the glue is set. Also, the entry for sovereign glue plainly states that attempting to separate the two bonded objects has no effect unless the separation is attempted by using universal solvent. That says to me that if the construct is glued to him, even if the chainmail were not in the discussion, he could not teleport away because he could not be seperated from the construct and thus would have to attempt to teleport the construct with him. Due to the fact that the construct weighs more than 50 pounds, teleporting in this scenario would absolutely fail.

My question is still open.. wouldn't it just be a touch attack to have the golem "touch" the devil with a glue covered body part? It seems to me that it would be just like using a wand for a touch attack or casting a spell that requires touching the enemy as the only goal is to actually touch the devil. Having the glue on that body part shouldn't make the golem have to do roll differently.. he's just trying to touch the devil, not hit him and do damage. Also, I don't believe it would be a grapple roll because the golem isn't trying to tie up with the devil or use a combat maneuver. He is simply trying to touch the devil.

Pauper Princess wrote:
My question is still open.. wouldn't it just be a touch attack to have the golem "touch" the devil with a glue covered body part?

The golem isn't just trying to 'touch' the devil: it is trying to keep hold of the devil long enough for the glue to set on the next turn. As you state in your own post above, the golem needs to maintain contact with the devil for 1 full round before the adhesive is binding. A touch attack does not assume continued contact, whilst a grapple check does. Thus a grapple makes the most logical sense. Remember that in Pathfinder, a grapple is only equivalent to grabbing someone's arm or shoulder and not a full 'body wrestle' like it was in 3.5. That's what pinning is for.

Grand Lodge

I would think the encounter would play out thus:

Surprise Round:

1. Clay Golem grapples devil, succeeds.
2. (Devil doesn't act in surprise round)

Round One

*If initiative was Devil 17, Golem 12
1. Devil- take a move action to separate (no roll necessary)
2. Golem- glue sets on golem
However, this brings up another possible question. Can the devil actually take the move action to separate while being grappled? I would assume this would be allowed, since he isn't advancing his position but just keeping the glue from being set; just like a roll doesn't need to be made to attack with natural or light weapons or take other actions while grappled.

*If inititative was Devil 12, Golem 17
1. Golem- the glue would set; thus the devil and clay golem would be attached.
2. Devil- would try to teleport- but here is where the greater teleport listing concerning 50 lbs comes into play. Since the golem would now be a permanent part of the devil, would the extra weight be considered part of the devil now and not applicable to the 50 lb limit of the ability? This is where clarification of worn items during teleport is needed- can a wizard teleport himself without stuff he is wearing? Can he, for instance, simply teleport his body away and leave his gear to fall to the ground?

Since the devil is wearing chainmail, and he is large, it would seem it would weigh 80 lbs... but why would greater teleport be included in his description if he couldn't use it. He would have to take it off to teleport...does the description concerning 50 lbs mean 50 lbs of unowned, unheld objects? For instance, the devil could teleport with all his carried gear, but not grab an enemy who weighs 150 lbs, or he could teleport away with all his gear and not grab a magical anvil or something...

I think it would be a grapple check to break the grapple, then a move action to separate the glue. No Teleport that round.

Grand Lodge

Here is how this ended up laying out.

The rogue began the round flanking the devil with a clay golem on the other side. Several feet away stood a ghaele azata and hound archon.

The rogue began the surprise round by throwing the breakable flask of sovereign glue at the devil. The devil was predetermined to be standing, weapon sheathed, arms away from body but legs together, hands open. Rogue is unaffected by fear aura.

The rogue succeeded and the flask broke on the devil. The golem took no action, the hound archon moved within 15 feet from the devil, who is unaffected by the aura of menace. The Azata moved to within 25 feet of the devil and zapped him with a light ray attack.

Initiative for the actual rounds is:

1. Rogue 24
2. Devil 23
3. Hound 22
4. Golem 16
5. Azata 10

At the beginning of the Rogue's turn, the glue hardens. The Devil's weapon is stuck fast as well as the devil's chainmail. Thus, he cannot teleport now. His legs are also stuck closed so he cannot walk.

Hands are open and arms free, however. I have removed his dexterity bonuses.

Rogue attacks with full round action, sneak attacking for gobs of damage. He failed his last attack and took the devil down to 8 hit points!

The devil then didn't have many options... needless to say he perished.

The Exchange

Sovereign glue only coats 1 square foot....seems like a lot to ask it to glue his Chainmail, weapon, and legs with one application.

Actually, 1 ounce coats 1 square foot, 7 ounces would coat 7 square feet. If the vial contained only 4 ounces I would say that 4 square feet of coverage would be enough to hold a weapon and legs in place.

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1. I don't think sovereign glue is allowed to be thrown as a weapon in order to release the glue effectively. If it was useable as a weapon RAW, it would have to say so. If GM wants to interpret it as being used as a weapon, then that's their own choice. Aside from that, realistically speaking, the sovereign glue item consists also of salve of slipperiness and glass/container-material, which when broken would likely interfere with the glue's action.

2. Surprise rounds allow for a move or a standard, not both, so the golem couldn't grapple the devil after running towards it. This maybe isn't RAW, but one could also say that because of that, the suprise round is only technically half a round when it comes to time, enabling an additional move or standard action to be performed the following round before the glue would set.

3. I'd sat that unless target was pinned or otherwise helpless, glue could not be forced on the target for a whole round. Grapple is a give-and-take scenario where generally one person is not in any more control than the other. Over the course of a round, I presume various contact points have joined and broken, and that it's very unlikely any point wouldn't have broken contact at at least 1 point of time during that round. As per the rules of Sovereign Glue, breaking contact results in the glue being ineffectual.

4. It makes sense that the glue needs to be applied on a surface that will come into contact with another surface. Applying glue to the feet will not stick his feet to the ground as long as the surface(s) between his feet and the ground (the bottom of his feet) were coated in glue. In the same way, throwing glue at armor will only glue the outer surface of the armor to whatever would contact it; it wouldn't stick the armor to himself.

5. The 50 pounds teleport thing sounds strange and probably a mistake/oversight of some sort. I doubt the creator's intention was to say he couldn't teleport away without his items, and the chainmail and morningstar alone weigh 92 pounds. They probably assumed his items weighed 46 pounds. You wouldn't even need glue to prevent him from teleporting away, since it takes 1 minute to remove chainmail. Either the increased weight of items for large size should be ignored for him, or the fact that he's only limited to 50 lbs for the teleport.

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I always thought that the 50 pounds of objects was objects in addition to the creatures normal gear.

Sovereign Glue is thick and viscous, not really something that can used as a splash weapon, it's more like tar.
And nothing in the description says that the flask is breakable, in fact it needs a special flask just to keep the glue from hardening inside the flask.

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Doormouse wrote:

I always thought that the 50 pounds of objects was objects in addition to the creatures normal gear.

Sovereign Glue is thick and viscous, not really something that can used as a splash weapon, it's more like tar.
And nothing in the description says that the flask is breakable, in fact it needs a special flask just to keep the glue from hardening inside the flask.

This was my opinion as well. If we look at the carrying capacity section, they split encumbrance into two sections: "Encumbrance comes in two parts: encumbrance by armor and encumbrance by total weight."

I think the intent is to include worn armor/gear as part of ones "self", and to limit his transporting with other carried objects.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

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