Desi's page

I think hellknight is much better than a standard fighter, but the issue is that getting into the prestige class is really difficult, because devil's and hellknights to watch you slay said devil don't just show up when you want them to

EDIT: Raging vitality is much MUCH better than diehard, take it every time.

Diehard is only kind of ok, ragingvitality is amazing

Even if I couldn't play a Hell Knight this time, a friend of mine should be DM'ing a Kingmaker campaign soon enough, so I'll convince him to let me play Dredd. I'm sure he'll be okay with it, as long as I don't overplay it annoyingly.

Thanks for input on Raging Vitality. It does seem better, but then again I've just never seen Diehard used.

Not to necro this thread, but I came back to look at this while doing some extra stuff for the character and came across an issue. Since I'll be going half-orc and taking Shaman's Apprentice and thus being able to take Diehard, should I replace Raging Vitality with Diehard? I've never had Diehard so I'm not sure how functionally useful it is, though it seems like it would be. Just curious for your opinion on this.

What is your name?

What is your quest?
What is your favorite color?

No one stopped to appreciate this? I will.

Glad to see there are people that actually enjoy and appreciate the class, and that it seems to be generally a fringe incident that someone absolutely despises them/actively tries to ruin one's fun.

IMO the main problem is that more than any other class it throws a wrench in the game immediately if there's no involved discussion on the intent of the group and the setting of the campaign.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to seem that I'm attacking anyone's ideas or opinions, just attempting a defense for a favored class of mine.

What I wanted to state with my comment was: I can hardly see any reason at all to side with something as heinous as a vampire. And in 99.9% of all cases my answer to such an offer of alliance would be answered by at least a flask of holy water. But more likely something more drastic and/or effective.

I dislike having too many shades of grey and thus vampires are just black.

So Blade was 100% a bad guy, absolutely irredeemable and a heinous villain?

Edit: I think Blade was actually a Dhampir. Welp, there goes my argument.

Desi wrote:

Yes, a paladin outdamages the figher against the one specific enemy, but that's it.

Firstly, evil enemies are about two-thirds of the enemies a typical party fights and they can smite up to seven times a day at higher levels. Secondly, that isn't it, because a paladin has all the other advantages I listed.

Well let's say that mechanically paladin is a "better" fighter. Is a magus or synthesist also not a better fighter? I agree that paladins have some key abilities that are very good, but I don't really think they're unbalanced in having them.

The amount of smites they have at that high of a level being "good" isn't quite a reflection on them as much as it is a reflection on the design of boss fights usually being one enemy or a small group. Not to imply there's a better way to do it, but being good in this situation is mechanically the intent of a paladin.

The problem with paladins is the same as with all parties, just more obvious: You have to clearly agree on what kind of game you want to play, as a gaming group and stick to it.

I actually think this is a very good way to put it.

Negatives of having a paladin:

Forces other players to act in a manner that will satisfy a paladin or suffer inter-group conflict.
Makes it hard to play a morally ambiguous 'team up with a group of vampires to fight a greater evil' type adventure.
Gets so many abilities it's hard to keep track of them all; makes Fighters look inferior.
Forces the GM to make rulings about what constitutes lawful good behavior and decree whether or not the paladin should fall.
Causes long threads on the internet about whether executing prisoners is an evil act.

I can agree that it does bring up a lot of issues specific to the paladin, but to the best of my knowledge paladins can work with those that ping evil, as long as it is to reach a goal that inherently spreads good or reduces evil.

I do however completely sympathize with the last point. Making morally ambiguous things into strict Lawful Good versus Neutral Good or even Evil is generally quite hard, if not completely impossible.

It may be that I've had more lenient DM's or the settings I played them in, but I've not had too many issues with having to play the Fall. I'm just glad I haven't had to execute any prisoners yet.

Well if we're going for that reasoning for not liking classes we must only like Rogue and Monk.

Not fair, ki pool makes rogues and brawlers look inferior.

How can there ever be a greater evil than a horde of bloodthirsty undead?

A horde of bloodthirsty liches?

A Paladins can out-damage a fighter while smiting evil AND has the ability to enhance his weapon or have a full animal companion AND can heal himself as a swift action AND can cure statuses with lay on hands AND can cast spells AND has the best saving throws AND can cast spells AND is immune to lots of conditions AND can channel energy AND can detect evil at will...

Yes, a paladin outdamages the figher against the one specific enemy, but that's it. Comparing it to a similar class in it's element will always make it seem strange in power levels, the same way that the barbarian might smash the fighter on a charge because he can pounce and the fighter can't. Is the barbarian broken? No.

Actually, I'm dipping Oracle of Lore for Sidestep Secret and social skills so I can make a high Charisma Barbarian who's still very effective, and Focused Trance plus all the Knowledge Skills as class so I can win at those too. So he's charming, knowledgeable, and murders people with a greataxe. :)

The Lame thing is also totally happening, and the spellcasting is surprisingly nice (+2 to hit and damage 4 fights a day is actually not bad, and eventually I can grab a Wand and do it whenever I have prep time), as is being able to freely use Cleric Wands...but it's the playing a Barbarian who's actually good at all the social and knowledge skills that's the real selling point.

Ah okay, I can understand the allure of all that. Higher point buy than 15 I assume?

I thought about taking Sidestep Secret or the other Nature version, but with my goal of Come and Get Me, it's extremely counterproductive to dump Dex. I do think taking Oracle at 9 for super easy rage cycling would be really good for me though, so I'll definitely keep that in mind for when that comes around. Though.. my charisma score will be atrocious. So I suppose it is iffy.

Probably the last thing I can imagine I'd have a question about though is why do so many people tend towards greatsword? Is it just a flavor thing? I'm not sure I understand how it's superior mechanically to a falchion except in early levels for the larger base die.

Thanks again for all the assistance though, you've been a huge help with a class I would've otherwise just shied away from.

After playing through several campaigns as paladins, I've come across at least a few players that seem to have a deep-seated dislike or even hatred for paladins, in stark contrast to my love for the class. While I can understand some of the concern in paladin PCs(i.e. players playing Lawful Stupid), what have paladins ever done to deserve this hate?

I'm very curious to get a much wider view on this class and how it's been played in other peoples' experiences, be it as a party member, as a DM, or as the paladin player themselves.

Feelings on paladins? Constructive advice for aspiring paladins? Issues that come up as a DM? Past experiences concerning the Fall?

I, for one, would like to know how it turns out. I love those little guys!

I second this. Please do let us know what happens, I've always been interested in kobolds being actual important bad guys, even if not perhaps the BBEG in this particular case.

So, I have tunnels that only fit kobolds, and murder holes, and oil in the ceiling, but what other menacing ideas can you guys help me out with to make my players rue the day they became level 10?

I suppose it really depends how much power you want to put into each encounter. For instance if the ceilings are low, a kobold sorcerer or magus can easily black tentacles + stinking cloud a corridor, potentially chain-CC'ing PC's that aren't able to evade/circumvent for an easy initiate. Then there's always the option of an opposing druid with a chupacabra!

+1 to what Scavion said: spellcasters are a must. Ground control will be an extremely easy way of making encounters much more difficult. DPR isn't everything, though it's always nice.

I'm personally using a variant on the Half-Orc one for my currently planned Oracle 1/Barbarian X, but he's got the additional incentive of getting Divine Favor which is actually pretty sweet with Fate's Favored added (way better than any other 1st level spell at a never-rising CL 1).

Are you dipping Oracle just for the bit of casting? The only other thing that comes to mind is Lame which kicks in at 5th.

Edit: Ignore me, at Oracle 1/Barbarian 8 it kicks in as well. I know things about things.

It's a solid build. But never ever get rid of Raging Vitality without replacing it with something else to keep you from dying when you go unconscious. The build you reference uses his free Endurance from Shaman's Apprentice to qualify for Diehard instead (and thus doesn't nee con 15 to start with)...which is a valid way to go (he just never goes unconscious), but definitely grab one or the other by 5th to 7th. Too easy to die coming down from Rage as a Superstition (ie: other PCs don't heal you in combat) Barbarian otherwise.

Take Raging Vitality at third and get a +2 luck bonus to all saves and the eventual added +1 from Jingasa, assuming I get one. I also then have Endurance and a vision enhancer and will never need to worry about not being able to see/be unarmored in case of a night ambush. Both builds have obvious merits, but I feel that the Half-orc is just more versatile as long as I'm not too interested in having the free feat slot open for Heavy Armor Proficiency until around 9th or so, which is around when I'd maybe have Mithral Full Plate anyhow. I'm not suffering some glaring error in logic am I?

Go Half Orc, take Power Attack as your Feat. Grab the Sacred Tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice alternate racial traits.

For Traits, take Fate's Favored, which will combine with Sacred Tattoo to add +2 to all your saves...for a +8 Fort, +3 Ref, and +5 Will while raging at 1st level.

Was browsing advice and actually came across this. Since I can keep the FCB either way, is this not better in nearly every way to getting the bonus feat, since I'm getting effectively 3 traits in a +2 bonus to all my saves along with a vision enhancer, plus the backstory reasoning of a falchion? I'd only have to push back my feat progression by pushing Furious Focus to 7th or removing Strength Surge or something along those lines. Could easily get rid of Raging Vitality also.

I was just looking at Hellknight to see what I would do to a Pathfinder Judge Dredd. It seems to me that the most Judge Dredd Hellknight character is the Hell Knight Enforcer, the Cleric Hell Knight. They are the ones whose faces are always covered, who can look at a servo droid and see the computer hacker hiding inside it. Get there via Inquisitor, maybe, get Bane on any weapon you happen to pick up. Inquisistor abilities and feats combine well with combat builds.

IMO it seems that if one was looking to play something geared more towards Judge Anderson, one would go with Enforcer. I can see where you're coming from though; some of the abilities to lend themselves easily to Dredd. Only conflict with Enforcer and Anderson is wearing the mask.

Well yeah, that thing is great. I'm totally eventually grabbing it on my Oracle/Barbarian. Of course he has Fate's Favored, making it even better...

That just makes it even better, nice!

Have you ever had a problem with the amount of rage rounds you have a day, or does that seem to be generally covered pretty well usually? That's really the only thing I'm concerned about with this character is that I'll waste it or be too afraid to use enough rounds or something.

Thanks for all your help by the way!

Sadly, no. Claws are on your hands. If they're on your feet they're called talons. You get a Greatsword attack or the two claws, not both. You could also do a Longsword + 1 Claw...but that's silly since the claw would become secondary.

I was about to ask about this, then I found the line under Natural Attacks about weapons clutched in hands, so nevermind. That's sad. Are they not very useful then?

By 10th a Barbarian in a Breastplate can easily have AC of 26 (+9 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet, +1 Jingasa, +1 Ioun Stone, +3 Beast Totem, -2 Rage) for around 23 k out of his 62 (leaving 15 for a Cord of Stubborn Resolve, 18 for a +3 weapon, 9 for a +3 cloak and some left over). He could easily have more if he went with Full Plate. The Jingasa and Ioun stone are admittedly iffy if you don't have someone with Craft Wondrous Item...but why in the world wouldn't you? And at that level improving the ring and amulet is almost as cheap.

Someone else that knows the glory that is the Jingasa, finally. He was an Urban Barbie so he would've needed to take both medium and heavy proficiency as feats, so I guess he found it easier to not have an AC then try with that low of a proficiency on a 15 pt. buy.

It's also worth noting that Lesser Beast Totem only gives two attacks, not three.

Does that not allow me to, on a full attack, Greatsword-claw-claw for 3 attacks at full BAB?

1: Power Attack, Raging Vitality

2: Superstition
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency (if going Drunken Brute, otherwise move all the other Feats down two levels)
4: Lesser Beast Totem
5: Furious Focus
6: Beast Totem
7: Extra Rage Power (Strength Surge)
8: Witch Hunter
9: Extra Rage Power (Spell Sunder)
10: Greater Beast Totem
11: Combat Reflexes
12: Come And Get Me

Looks good to me. I assume Heavy Armor if going Drunken Brute is to take advantage of the move speed I'm giving up anyway? I don't know that I will actually take Drunken Brute though, probably just Invulnerable Rager.

I'd also skip Reckless Abandon, it and Come And Get Me together are just overkill, and leave you too vulnerable defensively.

The barbarian player I mentioned earlier in thread, when raging and Reckless Abandoning IIRC had an AC of 6 at about level 10. But if my AC is going to be low enough that anything of average CR will wail on my face, is it not better to maximize my offense in an attempt to mitigate the poor defense?

Who says Bards are a full support character? First, you take the lead in social stuff and usually in skill-based things as well (which tend to be a fair portion of the game), and second, both melee and archer Bards are actually quite solid in a fight. They're not quite on par with full-on martial characters, but they're solid if built properly. Heck, Dawnflower Dervishes are probably on par with more martial classes, though they give up some serious party buffing to do it and may be a bit off-theme for Reign of Winter...but then again, maybe not, fire vs. ice has some style to it.

You said previously you were a big fan of barbies for melee, and after seeing the absolute devastation our barbie wreaked every round in CotCT, I'm curious to play one. I know I change my mind about characters frequently; I'm very finicky. This is only a rough idea of the progression but how does this sound to you?

Human Barbarian: Invulnerable Rager(paired with Drunken Brute?)
Ability Scores: 17, 14, 15, 8, 10, 8 with boost at lvl 4 into Str and lvl 8 into Con.
Replace skilled with Heart of the Fields for fatigue ignore 1/day and put FCB into superstition bonus
Using a 2-handed weapon(greatsword/falchion?) and getting breastplate when available.
Take Power Attack and Raging Vitality, Extra Rage Power: Superstition, Improved Sunder for eventual Spell Sunder, Combat Reflexes into eventual Come and Get Me.
Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem lvl 2 for 3 attacks at full base, Superstition, maybe Strength Surge for sundering?, Reckless Abandon, Beast Totem, Gtr Beast Totem, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder.

Not everything is in the order that I would be taking it, but just looking for general input on usefulness and optimization of trees etc.

Edit: Apologies again if this looks/is disorganized, I wrote it while watching OGN Champions Spring.

Desi wrote:

He implied we'll be far from mainland Golarion and that it wouldn't fit.

This is at least partially true. I'd personally say you were a Hellknight apprentice (spacing the term) to start with and just go with that in terms of justification, but I can see where your GM is coming from to some degree.

Desi wrote:

I haven't talked to the other players about it, I haven't seen them recently enough. So I don't actually know yet.

Well, Bard is always fun and useful, and Witch is very thematically appropriate. If going melee, I'm a big fan of Barbarian...it all depends what you're looking for.

I've never had a PC bard in a party, only NPC bards. I've played mainly paladins, fighters, magus, etc. How can I more easily transition this into something more like a bard? I wouldn't mind playing one, but playing a full support character seems very boring imo.

What else is in your party? Advice on Class is hard to give in a vacuum.

I haven't talked to the other players about it, I haven't seen them recently enough. So I don't actually know yet.

He implied we'll be far from mainland Golarion and that it wouldn't fit.

I gave him paladin, armored gunslinger into justiciar, and AGslinger or cavalier into hell knight, all of which were a no. The last two were my ideas of going into Dredd, and I don't know if there are any others that I'd be super interested in, since I'm 100% sure he won't let me play a Judge from the Judge Dredd d20.

TL;DR No, just something interesting to play. :)

Well I just talked to my DM and he said cavalier isn't a good idea and that he isn't convinced Hell Knight makes sense. Can't say I didn't entirely see this coming, he's not a huge fan of variety; said core and APG for classes. I will definitely play this character, but not as soon as I'd hoped I guess.

Anyone have any ideas for something fun to play? I'm really interested in playing a monk, as my last monk opened a door into 3 rogues and failed was snuck attack to death: anyone know a good build for a monk? Other ideas would be great too, all mine thus far have been shot down.

Does Dragon's ability not apply only when you are threatening the target? That seems like it'll be useful before I get ride-by and when I can't be charging, which given is useful but not in ideal situations. That or my idea of a cavalier is a bit 2-dimensional, which is also possible.

I'd be happy to give updates once we've started playing.

I was thinking of Cockatrice, but why would you personally choose Dragon?

That makes a lot of sense actually, thanks :D

Thanks everyone! Cavalier definitely sounds good, and I'll go medium for as little cheese as possible and probably Gendarme and Beast Rider to get a tiger at 4th. Question though: I'm new to mounted combat but can you take your action at any point during your mount's movement? For instance order of the Cockatrice's standard action Dazzling Display: can I use that as I ride by a target? Or do I have to end my mount's move wherever I take the action? Sorry if this is written plainly somewhere that I missed.

I had planned on doing a character similar to Judge Dredd, but I don't know how my DM would feel about firearms (he generally disapproves of things he finds "OP" which I assume would be this.) It did however lead me to Hell Knight, and after my run-ins with them in CotCT (I'm in Mag 5 please no spoilers (: ) I'm really interested in playing one for Reign of Winter which my group is starting soon.

So far I've heard fighter 5 or paladin/house-ruled LE anti-paladin 5, but is there some other way that's better that I'm missing?

My idea currently: LN Angel-blooded/Archon-blooded Aasimar fighter 5 (maybe in weapon master) into Hell Knight right away at 6 with standard feat progression with power attack, furious focus, weapon focus, etc. in probably falchion.

Open to all ideas!

Hello friends, I've recently come across an issue in a campaign I'll soon be joining. I'm very interested in having my character be a devout follower of Zon-Kuthon, and as such eventually pick up Leadership and get preferably an Evangelist Kyton and possibly an Erinyes eventually as a cohort. I've looked into it a lot, but it doesn't seem there are actual elastic rules for it - short of speaking at length about each one specifically with my DM. Does anyone have prior experience with this, or even better has Paizo spoken more clearly about this anywhere?

Thanks a lot, guys. That one was always a bit odd RAW.

As per magical weapons, is the enhancement bonus in ALL circumstances limited to +5?

A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.

It's a lot less specific about the actual enhancement bonus, however. Say if I had a +4 Sword of BBEG Slaying, and (by class ability or spell) added Bane BBEG, would it cap at +5, or function as a +6?

In the CRB, Equipment gives a table for weapons from small to large: I require from medium and beyond, including colossal. (I really hope there isn't one somewhere obvious in the book: I did my best to find it before posting this.)

In the rules, it states that negative levels you currently have count you as one caster level lower for level dependent variables. Does this also apply to class abilites that you receive at certain class levels, i.e. number of uses of lay on hands, number of smites, etc.?

Second question. To kill a vampire, you have to go through the stake, chop, and sprinkle, but how do you make the vampire helpless to begin with? You can't knock them unconscious, and pinned doesn't count as "helpless." Other than DM fiat, what way is there to kill a vampire without going to its nest and without a vorpal blade?

Third: all natural attacks made by vampries impart the negative levels, not just the slam attack specifically, correct?

Well yes, that's for creating the item from scratch. How would I go about, per se, taking a Sun Blade and upping the enhancement bonus?

Anyone know set/house ruled guidelines for customizing magic items? I want to pitch it to my DM, but I don't want to upset other PCs by spending half the session hashing out all the details and costs.

As I was reading the rules for the archetype, it says that as you level, you reduce the penalty for weapons larger than you, up to and including -0. However, nowhere does it say that you can ever reduce the number of hands required to wield it (i.e. not enough surface area to wield a huge greatsword). It seems logical that the class would allow for using weapons such as this (within reason), but the rules don't say so. Can you simply not use weapons bigger than 1 size above yours?

Second question, unrelated: can specific magic weapons not be altered via enhancement bonuses whatsoever?

I have roughly 14k on hand.
My cohort has craft magic arms and armour, a follower can craft wondrous, and the Sun Blade was a story item I technically died for. Immediate action healing is literally a life-saver.

Cloak of resist is always good, and I feel like I have a +1 Cloak, but as is, my lowest save is I believe a +11.

The natty armour definitely needs to get bumped soon, I just didn't have the gold to do it at the time.

Current gear:
Sun Blade
Heavy Steel Shield +4
Full Plate +4
Headband of Cha +4
Belt of Giant Str +4
Armband or whatever of Dex +2
Ring of Protection +1
Ammy of Natty Armour +1
Mswk Lucerne Hammer (for reach/bludgeoning)
Adamantine Arrowhead for locks
Bracelet, Silver Smite

If relevant, feats are Power Attack, Leadership, Eldritch(Celestial), Skill Focus(Heal), and a feat that adds 1D6 to Lay on Hands when mercies don't apply.

I've never been this high of a level, or been as vested in a character's survival and in-game success. I'm saving for the Holy Avenger, but suggestions on useful or just plain fun items?

Other maybe relevant info: party consists of my pally, my oracle cohort, dervish dancer, cavalier/cleric, evocation wizard, and a fighter that is there when he can make it to sessions.

My paladin gets +21 to perception, along with detect magic.
We've had some awful run-arounds trying to get through stone doorways with locks of I believe DC 40, so this should make our lives a lot easier. Thanks.

If a PC wanted to break/cut/sunder/etc. a lock on a door or chest, what are the stats they're going against?
My party is short any form of rogue, so I'm looking to carry an adamantine arrow or other tool and just slice locks off.

Oh, sweet. Thanks guys!

As a paladin with a charisma of 26, it only makes sense to start my own following. I've taken leadership, and am considering changing my cohort from the sorceress it is now to an oracle, as it makes more in-game sense, and even though she's of lower level, invaluable to the party. However, I realized I can't give her a Phylactery of Positve Channeling and a Headband of Cha. Is there a way to move one of them to another slot? My DM said something once about it costing 1-1/2 the price and you can do it, but I just wanted to be sure. Is it possible?

That does sound pretty fantastic. I'll have to look into it when I'm not posting from my phone, but upsetting my DM by healing the PCs with the ridiculously high ACs does sound good. I think I might play an Oracle. Thanks a lot for your help, again!

How do they fare in combat? I don't want to totally not take part either. I've just always played a combat role, I suppose.

I kinda like the idea of the oracle. What else would it do?

So channel as a 15th level cleric? That's awesome!
How are ninjas? I just realized we have no rogue/skill monkey.

General enemies we've fought thus far:
Trolls
Undead, including Vampires
Gnolls
General Animal/Magical Beast encounters
We haven't fought them yet, but the 8-armed demon apes I'm sure will come up, as we've passed them before.

Our DM called it a "horror-campaign," and there's a lot of evil everywhere. A nalfashnee summoned some demons to kill us once, too.

Roughly 9-10th level.

Healing isn't a must, but my party would appreciate it. It's irrelevant to me personally, though.

Why is it so useless? I've never had such a problem with a door that I thought to myself, "If only I had an eighth level ability that would increase my chances of opening this door the rogue can probably pick the lock to!" Maybe if the boss was bullrushing down the hallway and the door really needed opening, but that's about it.

@Jiggy: Any suggestion for a character if this falls through? I'd be up for most anything. I'm just not a huge fan of characters that sound roughly like, "I'm going to shoot arrows. Oh, my turn again? I'm going to shoot arrows from the same place again." I've been down the min-maxing, damage-dealing road, and it sucks.

So, is Sun just an all-around better domain then?

Cleric of Iomedae, if better suggestions.