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zza ni wrote:
... a well prepared enemy might just ready an action to coup de grace the witch themselves when she let herself be helpless.

A minor point of correction here, just to make sure no one get the wrong idea about readying actions:

Ready An Action wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. ...
Coup de Grace wrote:
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe...

You cannot ready a full-round action, unless you've got another ability that explicitly allows it or lets you reduce the action cost.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I am also pretty sure you cannot use familiar archetypes with Hand's Detachment. Since the Detached hand lacks the abilities those trade out it does not qualify for the archetypes.

You are correct that it wont qualify for those archetypes, unless you choose it to be your actual familiar.


Melkiador wrote:
“3 feat pet” isn’t really fair. Possessed hand is a +1 to attack and damage with some other minor perks. And autonomy is an improvement to dual wielding with some other minor perks. People will certainly stop on either one of those feats and never progress to detachment.

Its totally worth it to progress the hand to the Detachment stage, simply to get access to familiar archetypes.


Generally, you can only get 'one' familiar, as pretty much all sources refer back to the wizard class to determine how it works, and the entry for familiars specify adding together all levels to figure out the effective wizard level.

Now, there is no explicit line of text that says you can't have more than one, but the language is written in such a way as to never acknowledge having more than one. Even familiar-adjacent abilities (like bonded items, or blackblades) specify that you can't have that ability and a familiar at the same time. There may be some exceptions where a specific class feature (or a spell) allows for more than one at any given time, but you have to examine those individually as they come up.


Ask your GM if the permanent effects of Fire Ink would suffice to meet that requirement. Its not actual flame, but unless you have fire resistance, it sickens you.


GeometricFuzz wrote:
The issue is that I have a rather particular character I want to play. It's not about trying to min/max some game mechanic. It's about the RP and trying to find mechanics that reflect that RP of the characters. Beyond that, there are many questions about the class and archetype that are just unclear.

Unclear, or just not immediately a convenient match for the character you want to play? I have experience with both of those, and the later tends to happen more often with players that want the mechanics to work one particular way, and more often than I like, for a specific purpose they aren't generally upfront with at the start. Generally, I find the mechanics to be quite clear when read just as they are.

Regardless of that, work with your GM to tweak the mechanics to fit your idea. I often do that myself. An example was someone wanted to play a Surki (PF2e ancestry) in a PF1 game that I am running. I helped translate the race over and even allowed some Suli-only feats to be taken as the Sukri tend to have an elemental affinity.

Whatever your goal is, just tell the GM (or us if you really want our help). From what I can tell, you are trying to make some sort of devil/demon cursed, divine magic summoner that has a 'tainted' Azata at your beck and call. For what purpose, I have no idea. But it sounds fun.


I'm not seeing very many prior posts from you regarding this particular matter. "The Unchained Eidolon Azata of an LN Soulbound Summoner will have the Lawful subtype, with all of its benefits and drawbacks." - But it looks like your alignment subtype question was answered pretty clearly.

What issue are you having with Oracle curses? Are you having an issue with a specific curse, such as Demonic and Hellbound, which preclude you from summoning creatures of specific alignment subtypes? If so, there is a verify obvious and clear answer: You wouldn't be able to summon your Eidolon if its subtypes are the ones blacklisted by your curse. So don't pick an incompatible eidolon. Not all options are designed to play nice together.


Oli Ironbar wrote:
Also the context of "area contains an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture dedicated to your deity, pantheon, or aligned higher power". Asmodeus as an advocate, it does not directly specify a permanently fixed altar or give boundaries of what constitutes 'permanent'.

I would have enjoyed being present in that debate because of all the holes that I'd pick apart in that logic, but this isn't the rules forums and it is not my table, so I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty. Let's just say that the devil is in the details, and the sentence structure.

All said and done, if your group is having fun with it, all the better. Now, has the GM done something similar and had a necromancer carting around a desecrated shrine to empower his mobile army?


Oli Ironbar wrote:

I want to add to this how much consecrate could add to this build if you are largely up against undead.

Our Paladin hates undead and wants to obliterate them en masse, so (by GM permission) we now carry around cracked altar of Iomedae (an intact wouldn't work for my unwilling Oracle to consecrate it) in 1/16 scale. Their -2 to will saves and the +6 to the DC means that their failure rate doesn't depend on his Charisma modifier.

Your GM is very permissive indeed if they are ignoring the rather heavily reinforced language of altars being permanent fixtures, both in context and explicitly detailed in the descriptions for such items. Wondrous Items - Altars


Ah, 3rd party. Makes sense I'm not familiar with it.


I am not familiar with the Gauntlet Witch archetype. What's the source on that?


If I were pricing it, I'd place the total market value around 7,500gp for giving the +5 to caster level checks to activate the scrolls stored inside. It would be more since the item is a slotless magic item but since it is only useful for activating the scrolls, I'd call it a wash.

If you wanted to give the scroll charges that can be used to give the caster level a boost a certain number of times per day, such as 5 times per day, I'd knock off some of the price and make the scroll case cost 6,500gp instead.


I'm curious if any of you allow for players to commission magic items to be made that combine the effects of two (or more items)? Generally, I allow for someone to stacks the effects of a natural armor amulet and a phylactery if they are willing to pay more.

Take the most expensive item's market value and then add the next item's value with an additional 50% markup. So, base item is 15k and the other is 5k? That will be 22.5kgp And if the other item isn't meant for the same 'slot', thats an additional 50% markup on the 2nd item. I don't allow slotless items to be used for this.

Doing that, I've never had issues with people getting the items they want.


I grok do u wrote:


From my reading, anything that uses the "x/level" phrasing will be affected. Characters do not lose access to class feature abilities. So a druid would have reduced time in wild shape but not which creatures the druid has access to become. Barbarians would have fewer rounds of rage and bards lose performance rounds, but they don't lose level prerequisites for rage powers or which bardic performances they can use.

This is different than 3rd Ed rules, so I think many GMs still use those as house rules.

I respectfully disagree with Mysterious Stranger on sneak attack, as that is +1d6 every odd level, so it would be retained, as would a ranger's favored enemy bonus. The verbiage for these is that the features increase at specific levels. Fighter weapon and armor training, monk AC and unarmed damage, and paladin smites per day would likewise not be affected by level drain. May be splitting hairs on my part, so YMMV.

Just tipping my hat in here to agree with you. I think you nailed it. Just to add my 2 coppers, while a Paladin's Smites Per Day would not be effected, the damage added to their attacks would be (as that is level dependent).


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
For animal companions just purchase their items normally from the remaining WBL. ABP does not completely replace purchasing of magic items, it simply gives the character level appropriate gear without having to deal with the details.

Well, no. It does completely replace magic items, only specific types of them. You are correct on at least that much.

Automatic Ability Progression wrote:

Items that only grant bonuses to AC, saving throws, and ability scores don’t exist in this variant, and wish and similar spells never grant inherent bonuses to ability scores. Magic weapons and armor do exist, but grant only special abilities, not enhancement bonuses; calculate their prices with the table in the Magic Weapons and Armor section.

If you want to remove magic items entirely (or make them so exceedingly rare that there is no expectation of finding them), consider giving the characters bonuses from the following table as if they were 2 levels higher. The table extends to 22nd level to account for games without magic items.

So, things that grant bonuses to attacks, saving throws, ability scores, armor, etc, etc would not exist in a way to be able to purchase them. Making it possible to equip an animal companion or other companion creature with magic items normally with the other half of the intended wealth does seem like a way around this, but is a bit immersion breaking.

Derklord wrote:
Just to be clear, ABP is not a system that works 100% out-of-the-book RAW with zero changes by the GM. But the changes needed are very easy to make, and the system makes games significantly better. ABP produces more rounded out characters, it lessens the martial/caster disparity, is reduces the amount of system mastery required to have a functional character, and it curtails excessive min-maxxing.

Maybe this should clear something up: I never said that it works 100% out of the box and only expressed concern about implementing it in specific situations. I'm not sure why you've chosen to take the interpretation you have about the matter but its probably more constructive to stop while you are ahead. Maybe dial back the assumptions of universal application and keep the discussion within the original scope of my statements?


Oli Ironbar wrote:
It is forbidden as a shortcut to perfection. (Hint: A certain god would possibly strike a follower down for using this feat in this way.)

You've lost me. All I got out of that was that its a feat, and I couldn't readily find one on AoN that grants channeling aside from Adept Channel.


Azothath wrote:

Cleric BAB 0.75; Saves 0.66, 0.33, 0.66;

Envoy of Balance PrC BAB 0.5; Saves 0.33, 0.33, 0.5;

seems like more cleric means better overall abilities and perhaps Envoy should be ignored.
A dip into Monk, Paladin, Ranger, or Fighter would be better.

When you are dealing with the Cleric spell list, the loss of +1 BAB and roughly +1 to your good save to get the four levels of Envoy, doesn't mean anything. Clerics don't really get any new 'abilities' beyond 8th level (their domain typically, and the reason why I tend to avoid playing them. I find them mechanically boring).

Oli Ironbar wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
If you want a TON of Channel Energy ...
There is a way to have substantially more, but it is a dark, dark secret.

Oh? Pray tell. One of the only other ways I know how to get a channel pool without introducing new classes (and thus reducing the overall effective level of the channel pool) is through the Adept Channel feat, and that's just two more channel uses a day.


Derklord wrote:
For Eidolons nothing changes, plus you should not even have an AoMF at 4th level (being more than half your WBL). Similar for Animal Companions, there's no way you have an AomF at 4th level, and you don't need to have magic damage on both the PC and the pet at that level. Also, Magic Fang is on the Druid, Hunter, Ranger, and Summoner spell list.

Yes, I am familiar with how the wealth per level operates within the Pathfinder 1e ruleset, as well as the options available on those spell lists. Where did I give you any kind of reason to believe that an amulet of mighty fists was needed at 4th level?

Quote:
For Eidolons you can just have the Summoner's player pick who to apply the bonus to, making it work virtually identical to having the actual items. For Animal Companions et al., you can just let the let the player buy the normal items, as the Druid/Cavalier/etc. would need to spend money on that in addition to their own gear, anyway.

This is why I am hesitant to even try the ABP rules, because I can easily glance at the bonuses offered and tell they aren't easily translatable into many of the companion classes without heavy tweaking. In addition, there are areas of conflict where the ABP provided a typed bonus that is already duplicated by a class feature, and like bonuses don't stack. This creates areas that are unforeseen stress points where the game expects you to spend your wealth on other things because that class already has accounted for one of the big six to be covered.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the ABP at all. I'm just making observations.


If you want a TON of Channel Energy ... Spirit Guide Oracle (Life Mystery + Restoration Spirit) with the Variant Multiclass Cleric would net you THREE pools of Channel Energy (two Channel Positive, one that could qualify you for Versatile Channeler).

Yeah, you'd be giving up five feats, but the domain (or inquisition if you choose to pick one instead) choice could be well worth it.


Claxon wrote:
Just to swag it, because of the restrictions on Eidolons and PC and items, you could rule that either your character or the Eidolon can have any given bonus, and once it increase beyond +1 you could split it from +2 to one of you to +1 to both for any given thing.

I considered that, briefly. But a recent encounter of mine in a game reinforced the importance of both the character and their companions having access to at least a +1 enhancement bonus to their attacks at around level 4 to get around magical damage reduction or the complete immunity incorporeal creatures have to non-magic weapons. So, splitting the bonus doesn't seem like a viable option.


I haven't really explored using ABP simply due to the lack of rules regarding how to treat animal companions, eidolons, and other companion creatures that are normally outfitted with the character's wealth to spend on them. There is simply too much table variation on how to go about it that it wasn't worth the investment.


Oli Ironbar wrote:
Which oracle mysteries have channel energy?

Only the Life Mystery provides access to Channel Positive Energy.


There is an archetype for the Cleric that does the Twinned Channeling trick already built into its progression: Stoic Caregiver. It locks you only getting to pick one domain. At 6th level, you get to channel both positive and negative energy, each at half-strength. If you pick the Death domain, and reach level 8, you could get healed by both of these bursts and exclude your allies from the harmful effects (via Selective Channel, of course). I'd recommend Pharasma as your deity, as it fits into her whole niche.

Once you are able to Three-Aspect Channel, an argument could be made that you now qualify for Versatile Channeler (or could have at level 1, since neither your alignment nor deity required you to pick your channel positive energy class feature), and you could pick up those four levels of Envoy of Balance. Having the ability to use one Channel Energy for two 1/2 strength channels, or two Channel Energies for two full strength channels might be useful.

Quick Channel and another source of Channel Energy will put out a decent amount of healing/damage if you can manage it.


All it would do is encourage spellcasters to find ways to get those metamagic effects in other ways, at the very worst they'd have to take the feat they want and try to get a trait that reduces the effective level change. You'd likely end up with more incentive to play Sorcerers as they have some interesting bloodline abilities to work metamagic.

Likewise, spellcasters would likely opt to purchase scrolls that have been made by spellcasters with the metamagic feats already, and then use those.


It is indeed an issue that I used to struggle with. "Infinite Cosmic Power... itty bitty living space". A line from a childhood animated film with so much depth and meaning lost to so many people.

The game is only as hard, or as easy, as you choose to make it. We use dice to simulate forces outside of our control, effectively giving up a certain level of agency within the story, and yet then try to mitigate that loss of control with acquiring every kind of modifier to weigh the result in our favor. Somewhere, we lost sight of what we were trying to do, or we never understood it in the first place.

So long as you keep the CR system in mind when making your choices (this goes for both the GM and the players), you can preserve that feeling of challenge and excitement at the unknown. In most cases, naturally, as human error or lack of foresight does allow for outliers on all sides (player, GM, and game designer).

As a player, I limit my instinct to power game and restrict my choices to better fit the narrative and overall story I want to tell from my side of the game. That is how I deal with this issue. As a GM, I tell the kind of story that the players want to experience, and let them worry about what kind of challenges the provoke from the world itself.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Faith Magic is the only entry I think is worth serious consideration.

Wizard 7/Cleric 1/MT 10/Wizard 2

You only give up a level of wizard progress, which is tolerable. The down side is that your divine spells are quite a bit behind your arcane ones. But if you want to have Lesser Restoration on hand, it's not a terrible route.

Consideration is a highly subjective term. From my own viewpoint, I'd eagerly and enthusiastically play probably the most non-optimal combinations of Sorcerer4/Shaman4 with a Mystic Theurge, and I'd still classify it as worth consideration.

Viewing the game, and the viability of options, through a purely mechanical lens is going to kneecap 90% of the possibilities the system offers you. Yes, there are mechanically superior ways in order to go about engaging the system, but many of them remove the challenges that are baked into the CR system and have you swinging far above your power curve. Its self-defeating to engage in that kind of playstyle.

But all of this is drifting into a kind of gaming philosophy, of which I often find myself opposed. No need to rehash it all. The conclusion I've reached is that you simply cannot change some people's mind about certain options until you hand walk them through the journey of playing such a character so they get to experience it directly.


Yes, all of that I am aware of. I've never stated a Mystic Theurge is better than a single classed caster. Instead of arguing about why someone shouldn't take it, I am advising them on the best ways to do it. And how to go about staying relevant throughout your adventuring career while doing it.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

That build does address some of the problems with the mystic theurge. It still has the problem of slower access to higher level spells and lower caster level in one of the classes. This raises the mystic theurge from a trap to a weak choice. The big drawback is that this locks in your alignment and deity. I do not like evil characters and many tables do not allow them. Even Chaotic Neutral can be problematic and is often discouraged in many groups.

But any other build that does not do something similar is a trap.

This build is one of many I will be putting together, many of which are not deity or alignment restricted, and I probably the one with the LEAST amount of spells per day. I chose to do it first because it shares a casting stat and is at the early entry.

Table variation is not something I am addressing nor something I want to argue about, as it is entirely subjective.


I've been slowly updating my Mystic Theurge guide as time and motivation allow. I've started to do full builds, starting with my "Far Realms Seducer" combination of Seducer Witch and Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric. Its a deep dive on on the numbers, especially spells per day and spell level access. I account for bonus spells from high ability scores (I ignore cantrips/orisons for calculations, but list them on tables). Check it out, if you want. It has its own tab for the Far Realms Seducer.

Quick Run down: Level 8 is where a Witch/Cleric/MT has more spells per day than a pure leveled cleric (112%, or 3 more spells per day). It surpasses a pure witch very early on, but thats due to lack of built in bonus spells like the cleric gets from a domain. The gap in access to higher level spells always remains in favor of the pure classes, naturally. Level 12 is where things get really noticeable, when the Mystic Theurge has 141% of the spells per day of a pure cleric.

I plan on doing full level 20 builds for each of my 'Focused' Classes (ie, share the same casting stat), with minor attention paid to magic items that are key to spellcasting.

EDIT: Disclaimer, I am basing all my mystic theurge builds on a half-elf due to their unique racial abilities to boost caster levels. This doesn't effect spells per day.


thorin001 wrote:

A build I am currently trying out is a sorcerer/cleric.

For sorcerer I took the celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype so that I use Wis for both classes.
For the cleric I took an archetype that trades away channel energy.

I have four examples for a spontaneous arcane and divine prepared caster that make use of the Sorcerer. Two specifically that make use of the Cleric.

1) Sorcerer / Cleric (Empyreal / Ecclesitheurge) aka Divine Destiny - Makes use of your almost useless channel energy pool to buff your allies, and uses the Luck/Freedom domains for their granted powers. WISDOM BASED

2) Sorcerer / Cleric (Cross-blooded: Any / Elder Mythos Cultist) aka Mutters of Madness - Recommends: Rime-Blooded & Void-Touched wild bloodlines and the Void domain. Specializing in cold allows for some serious debuffs. CHARISMA BASED

For some builds that use other classes to pair with Sorcerer

3) Sorcerer / Druid (Empyreal / Halcyon Druid) aka Whispers of the Wise - Less flash than some of the other builds but doesn't tie you to a deity. WISDOM BASED

4) Sorcerer / Shaman (Empyreal / Unsworn Shaman) aka Woes of the Wilderness - You want to focus on evocation spells, and boost your spell DCs. The Waves spirit is your friend, as with Crashing Waves combined with any spell with the water descriptor means knocking down your enemies. Benthic Spell (metamagic) plus Produce Flame (or Pale Flame) will make you dangerous. You can also get numerous hexes with this build, making you much more than just your spells. WISDOM BASED.


If you want a detailed guide to the options that work best for a Mystic Theurge (though minus the questionable early entry shenanigans), you can check out my mostly-complete-but-still-WIP guide. It includes a link to another guide that explores the early entry stuff as well.


You are quite welcome. If this was at my table, I'd likely allow it.


Pretty sure you cannot take different archetypes that alter the same class feature, not without GM permission. Acquiring a lower level version of a class feature later would be a modification of that class feature.

Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.


Oli Ironbar wrote:
If you don’t want to be the archer by level 6 you are either doing things quite well or you are the most team oriented player in the whole game.

Guilty. Haha


Yeah, I still get those moments in games I play in, even if the game gets to level 16 as in the one I am currently active. I usually have a backup character ready to go in case the worst happens too.


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Since this thread got necro-ed, I'll toss in my recommendation.

Race: Half-Elf (*Duskwalker*)
Alternate Racial Trait: Multidisciplined (Druid, Spiritualist)
Alignment: Neutral Good/True Neutral
Classes: Druid 16/Spiritualist 4 VMC Cleric
Archetypes: Elemental Ally/Totem Spiritualist
Deity: Sarenrae
Granted Domain: Chivlary Inquistion (Mount Class feature)
Important Feats: 1-*Racial Heritage* (Duskwalker), 5-Personal Chronicler, 9-Boon Companion*
*(If the GM allows Boon Companion to effect Eidolons. If not, optimize the hell out of those Eidolons. Consider taking Summon Guardian Spirit if Boon Companion is not an option.)
Traits: Magical Knack (Spiritualist), Bifurcated Magic (Druid, Spiritualist); consider a drawback to get access to Use Magic Device
Total Caster Level Boosts: +2 Druid, +3 Spiritualist

Level Progression should look something like this:
1- Druid 1 (CL D1) [4 Eidolons]
-- Feat: Racial Heritage
2- Spiritualist 1 (CL D2/S2) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom]
3- Druid 2 (CL D3/S3) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount]
-- VMC Domain: Chivalry Inquisition
4- Druid 3 (CL D4/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount]
5- Druid 4 (CL D5/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
-- Feat: Personal Chronicler
6- Druid 5 (CL D6/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
7- Druid 6 (CL D7/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
8- Spiritualist 2 (CL D8/S5) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
9- Druid 7 (CL D9/S5) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
-- Feat: Boon Companion
10 - Spiritualist 3 (CL D9/S6) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
11 - Spiritualist 4 (CL D9/S7) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
12+ - Druid 8+ (CL D10+/S7) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
------
15 - (See if your GM will allow you to trade off the 8th level Inquisition ability for access to Sarenrae's Divine Fighting Technique, as you lack a Judgement class feature and the rules for the Divine Fighting Technique allow for swapping out a lower level domain power for access to the feat).

Tips: At level 12 and beyond, you are purely leveling Druid. You should be maxing out Use Magic Device, and making use of it to support your allies. You should be making use of your familiar to deliver touch spells to allies you cannot otherwise reach. The biggest tip I can offer is this: DO NOT ABUSE HAVING SO MANY COMPANIONS. You will eventually have FOUR independent characters you are controlling, including yourself. That's pretty much an entire self-contained party. You chose to do this, so get prepared to delegate. Train your Phantom Animal or Mount (Familiar can be ordered, it's smart) to serve another PC, and let the OTHER PLAYER give them orders so they act on their turn.

Eidolons: Specialize each of them for different movement types and roles. Fire is meant for speed and guerilla combat (Quadruped). Air is meant for climbing (eventually flying?) and scouting (Serpentine). Earth is meant for defense and power (Biped). Water is meant for swimming and battlefield control (Aberrant). Consider making it possible for one, or more, of you Eidolons are capable of serving as a mount for you or another player character (consider taking the Defending Eidolon feat as one of your character feats). Take Obedience feats with the Eidolons if you want. You can get Trapfinding or Damage Reduction through these methods.

Phantom: This will be (most likely) your most powerful 'summon', especially if you can't use Boon Companion to boost your Eidolons. Optimize it. It doesn't get the high(er) Intelligence that Eidolons get, so you need to bump its Intelligence so it can pick any feat, and you will need to occasionally issue it orders, which can take a free action or up to a move action depending. Do not neglect your Handle Animal skill.

Mount: This class feature is self-explanatory. Either you (or someone else) will be using this companion as a mount (see the Serve trick). You will be issuing orders, do not neglect Handle Animal. Consider the Intercept Blow feat.

Familiar: You can go in widely different directions with this. Protector, Figment, Mascot, or whatever you need. It just comes with the downside of having to shun undead and refusing to work with them.

Spellcasting: Your caster level is fine in the beginning but eventually you will fall behind a bit, and your spell level access will be stunted. But you don't need to worry about that. Your job is to give orders and direct your minions in the fight, buff them and your allies (Mage armor goes a LOOOOONG way for Eidolons and Phantom), and save your other spell slots for emergency healing (spontaneous cure AND summon nature's ally for the instances that you lose an Eidolon or Phantom). If all you have to do in combat is shoot a crossbow or misc ranged touch attack, you are doing your job.

Skills: Handle Animal and Use Magic Device are important to you. Perception and Survival are smart to take as well. Spellcraft if you can afford it. Everything else should get at least one rank if its a class skill.

Gear: Wands, scrolls, staves, and potions. You want whatever misc magical items you can get your hands on. The only critter you will be outfitting with gear (other than yourself) is your Mount, with an extra saddle or whenever you summon an Eidolon or Phantom. The Share Slot evolution will be useful so you can give gear to your Eidolons and still make use of your own.

FINAL TIP: Don't try to build this character in Herolab Online. You'll reach the complexity limit by level 8. Herolab Classic (offline) is your only hope.


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Terrakinesis wrote:

...

When in a corresponding terrain, as determined by the ranger favored terrain categories, her element changes to the corresponding element (granting her class skills, basic utility wild talent, simple blast, and elemental defense as appropriate)...

You do not gain additional SKILL POINTS, but your class skills shift to that of your current element, which will mean a loss of the free +3 bonus for having ranks in a class skill that is no longer a class skill, but you get that +3 bonus in another skill, until it shifts again.


Don't overlook that the Giant Flytrap has the grab special ability, which applies to its bite attacks (and thus grapple checks with its mouth(s)). It doesn't need Improved Grab to avoid AoO, and making grapple checks DO NOT provoke AoO, only the action of initiating a grapple against a target does.


I would assume it remains the same action type as pinning (or grappling) would be as it doesn't state otherwise. Standard action. Its basically replacing the need to maintain your grapple and goes straight into a pinning attempt, though replaces/adds to it with the Engulf rules as specified in its entry.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Also just in Pathfinder 1 generally I aim for my character to be very good at what they are best at. Then I want to be good at some things to be well rounded. But you can't get close to be good at everything and PF1 rewards specializing. So I just accept that there are a whole lot of things I am poor at.

Accordingly I don't try to get any good at using weapons when playing a full arcane caster. A lot of people have posted here who do try to get decent with weapons. I know why they do it and am not saying it is mistaken. But I prefer to structure my character figuring there is more value in just using feats etc. to improve my character elsewhere.

There comes a time where you get a feel for the 'ceiling' of the game in Pathfinder 1e and, unless you are playing in a fairly highly OP game, there is little need to reach or push past that particular ceiling. At this point, I generally have an intuitive understanding of just how powerful (or specialized) I need to be before I start branching out and picking up secondary and tertiary specializations.

For example, if you are playing a sorcerer and you've gotten +2 to every damage dice with your spells... You've pushed beyond that ceiling a bit and can start investing elsewhere. Honestly, the +1 alone is enough. If you've got high enough DCs on your spells that 80% of the creatures you face at your level will fail them more often than not, its time to look elsewhere. If you are an archer and can melt an enemy with a single full attack action (and it isn't a 'minion'), same deal.

You are correct that it is a matter of play style. These things pretty much always come down to differences in playstyle, both player and GM alike.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

I really like this in principle. But I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently.

Poisonous blood works OK, but other ideas seems to use up resources for something that will not do anything if things go to plan.

You are always going to be using resources for plans that usually don't happen, but you'll be thankful you did if it ever happens. My playstyle makes it more than likely that the enemy will attempt to go after me more than usual, so I get more mileage out of preventative measures than others might. Ive also gotten into the habit of convincing my allies to take the Bonded Mind feat with me, so that I can also take Share Spells, in order to give them some of the more delicious and devious personal only spells I have access to.

Sipping Jacket is highly useful, especially if you've got a source of daily (ie, free) potions or alchemist extracts with the infusion discovery. If you don't, well, make them yourself to save money. Something as simple as Displacement goes a long way.

Once you get options for Permanency, Toxic Blood is pretty cool.


... Yeah, there are not very many spells (barely any at all) for a Paladin to make use of with Spellstrike, aside from Cure Wounds spells. Trial by Fire is one, but you really want spells that deal just damage and not rely on saving throws, but those that allow for saving throws give a level of control of the battlefield or debuff.

You definitely want Unsanctioned Knowledge. Spells of interest to you would be:

1st level Bard: Touch of Blindness and Touch of Gracelessness
2nd level Bard: Shadow Anchor and Touch of Mercy
3rd level Bard: Flexible Curse, Isolate, and Jester's Jaunt
4th Level Bard: Alaznist's Jinx, Aroden's Spellsword*****, and Kiss of the First World

1st Level Cleric/Oracle: Touch of Blindness and Touch of Bloodletting
2nd level Cleric/Oracle: Disfiguring Touch, Suns's Disdain and Touch of Mercy
3rd level Cleric/Oracle: Bestow Curse, Fair is Foul, Forced Mutation, Irregular Size, Sands of Time, Sebaceous Twin, Steal Years, Trial by Fire, Trial of Fire and Acid,
4th level Cleric/Oracle: Black Spot, Cure of Unexpected Death, Poison and Spell Immunity

1st Level Inquisitor: Touch of Combustion
2nd Level Inquisitor: Brand of Hobbling, Stricken Heart, and Sun's Disdain
3rd Level Inquisitor: Banish Seeming, Cast Out, Flexible Curse, Forced Mutation, Isolate and Trial by Fire
4th Level Inquisitor: Brand of Tracking and Greater Brand

As you can see, the Cleric/Oracle list have the most abundant spells to pick from. I'd personally grab spells from the Bard list as Aroden's Spellsword is incredibly useful overall but thats a long term investment. All the 'curse-like' spells from the Cleric/Oracle list are all fun and flavorful but might not be something a Paladin would dabble in.

Quote:
Are there other ways to get other spells on my class list? Something like a Ring of Spell Knowledge, but for prepared divine casters?

Samsaran as a race choice plus their alternate trait "Mystic Past Life" would allow you to select from another spell casting class (has to be divine as you are a divine caster). Might be a way to get the bard spells you want with Unsanctioned Knowledge and some of the fun spells from the Cleric/Oracle list.


Just adding my two cents into the discussion.

What do I do when I run out of spell slots when playing a full caster? I don't run out of spell slots (typically) because I've built my character to be able to do something else during combat instead of just throwing spells. So, if (heavy on if) I run out of spells, I am still helpful. How I go about doing that varies from character to character.

For instance, every spellcaster benefits from Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. So, for the first three levels (until fireball becomes an option, or similar spells), you are not that much worse off than anyone else using a ranged weapon (provided you didn't skip out on Dex-day at the gym). There are other options if you want to stick to cantrips instead, but that's usually not effective beyond level 2.

As far as spell selection goes, I hardly ever give much thought to damage inflicting spells until I have more than a small handful of spell slots. Maybe I'll prepare one or two of them, especially if I have the option to spontaneously convert them (like a cleric into a healing spell, a druid for summoning, etc). My spell slots are better suited for benefitting my combat prowess or the abilities of my allies. Or boosting my defense and their defenses.

Once reaching level four and above, I start leaning into my spellcasting more often. By this point, we are a full two BAB behind the fighters and require buffs to keep up with their 'to hit' bonuses. It is far more effective to buff them than ourselves for attacking, and we can focus more on controlling the battlefield. We should still keep our ranged weapons nearby but by this point, we likely have enough disposable gold to start picking up wands and other consumable items, and should start focusing on making our spells harder to resist.

Once I reach level seven or eight, I have nearly completely switched into a utility and blaster role. Combat starts and I'm dropping a short lived, party wide buff (like haste) to go along with the longer lasting buffs that I've already cast. At this point, I am making it harder for the enemy to get around being an overall nuisance so that the enemies try to get at me (provoking and getting messed up by the fighters), or picking off any enemies that have been severely weakened by a full attack action from the archer (our REAL damage dealer) or one that appears to be getting the upper hand on any ally, so I debuff them.

At level 11, the gears generally shift once more, and I have longer lasting buff spells and my party has means to buff themselves in short bursts that I can try to level the field with a large blast before things get too chaotic. After that point, we have more than enough spells to generally last a typical adventuring day (four or more encounters) so advice isn't really needed for this level of gameplay.

To summarize, I specialize in a versatile role, providing utility and support rather than damage. My role in a party is sort of like grease and oil in a well tuned machine. The machine is already capable of dealing great amounts of death. I just make sure its operating at peak performance, and prevent it from grinding against itself while it does. And I always, ALWAYS, design my characters so that when (not if) they ever get caught on the front line, the monster immediately regrets it. Whether that is from having poisonous blood, a held charge from a touch spell ready to detonate when I'm struck, or something else... It will cost the enemy much more than I lose when we come into contact.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Even in a campaign that is not that heavily focused on undead it is a way to keep lower-level spells relevant. By having this option, I free up some of those other options for use on tougher foes. How often is a 1st level spell of any use once you get to 15th level or even above 9th?

As I am currently running a 15th level character, I feel that I've got some fairly recent experience to speak on that matter.

I get routine usefulness out of Magic Missile, Shield, and Shocking Grasp (all from 1st level spell slots) that have noticeable impact on the encounter. Yes, there are things I have that either boost the damage cap, change the damage type, or allow allies to deliver the dangerous touch spells for me (or for me to cast personal spells on them instead) but there is a reason I still prepare those spells daily. Cheetah's Sprint as well. I'm sure there are others but I'm not playing a sorcerer/wizard and have a limited spell list.

If it matters any, its the final book of the Giantslayer campaign.


Favored class options for sorcerer for additional spells known help blunt the cost of the Crossblooded archetype. Not the entire cost, but you'll have pretty much all the spells known you want.


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There are some ways to boost the damage of your spells as a sorcerer that I've explored, and that you can find on some guides. Some of my favorite are the following:

Raging Blood: Allows you to enter a rage like state as a sorcerer (or anyone with a sorcerer bloodline) and is beneficial but NOT needed for the next feat (just makes it better).

Flumefire Rage: Evocation (fire) spells just hit harder. They hit even harder if you are raging and casting spells, which you can't typically do unless you have...

Mad Magic: Let's you cast spells from any class while raging.

I'd suggest combining the feats together on a Crossblooded Sorcerer with the Elemental and (Draconic, Orc, Solar) bloodlines for the Bloodline Arcana abilities. Now, you can convert any elemental spell into a fire spell as you cast it and do +2 damage per die rolled, and +3 in a Raging state.

If you want to absolutely cheese the damage, you only take a single level of Sorcerer and then multiclass into something else. You can go the route of Arcanist (and School understanding for Admixture, freeing you up to swap away Elemental Bloodline for Draconic or Orc) and letting you take Bloodline Development to progress your Sorcerer bloodlines.

Or, you could multiclass into Witch, and take the Invoker archetype, specifically to invoke the Reckoning ability, which also increase the damage of your dies rolled by +1, and makes you better at critical hits with spells. It also allows you access to witch Hexes. Witch is not the most 'blasty' of the spell casting classes but they have enough to get by and you can change the elements as you wish (if you pick the right patron, you get some blasty spells, *cough*Elements*cough*). I like this option because there are some fun things you can do with hexes, and the Invoke Patron ability can be used for other things, like pumping up the DC of your spells and hexes.

Of course, you can take just enough levels to get enough uses of Invoke Patron and then prestige class into something else if hexes are not something you want to focus on. I'd say five or six uses of 1-minute intervals are more than enough per day.


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rogue171 wrote:
We decided to go with Myrmidarch Magus, which is working great so far. Thanks for the advice!

You are very welcome. Let us know if you need any more advice.


tl;dr: Gods can do what they want. Other gods can also do what they want. They stick to their domains to prevent mutual destruction. Don't blow up planets because that'll piss everyone off.

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I'd say that deities likely have the power necessary to perform such actions and it is more of a matter of self interest that generally prevents them from doing so. The material universe is a source of power for them and destroying planets that harbor the life cycles of mortal souls is generally NOT in their interests (some exceptions obviously exist). The ones that go rogue are generally dealt with but at heavy costs. These costs are up to the narrator in question.

And, it might be because of Gozreh, one of the major deities that has not really claimed a divine realm in the Outer Planes, and is Nomadic (in a sense) entity that exists within the Material Realm. It is not stated anywhere in the lore that I am aware of but I've taken the opinion that Gozreh is the unofficial enforcer of the pact primeval, always keeping a keen eye on the fundamental forces of nature to keep the other gods from meddling too much in the material realm. I think that after Rovagug went rogue and Aroden died, Gozreh has taken a particular interest in Golarion to make sure Rovagug doesn't get free.

Demi-gods fit in a strange niche area. Unless they've claimed a plane of some sort in the Outer Realms (and thus are fed power through souls entering their domains after death), they truly don't possess the full influence as a true deity. And as not truly deities, they likely don't have the same kind of mutual direct non-aggression other deities have with each other. Their minions may clash but when actual deities fight, one usually ends up dead and their other severely depleted, which can lead to eager rivals to come in to finish them off and claim a domain (maybe like a demi-god seeking that last swell of divine power to truly ascend). Not to mention the sheer chaos and power upset the mortal realms would experience with such a shift.

Fun fact: At the heart of EVERY star in the Pathfinder setting is a gate to the Positive Energy plane which allows souls to radiate into the material universe. There are beings that are native to that plane that fiercely guard that gate and what lays beyond it. Fun reading: Creation's Forge and the Garden.


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You can pull this off pretty easily with the Myrmidarch archetype for the Magus class.

Caster? Check
Spellstriking? Check (both melee and ranged)
Familiar? Check (Magus Arcana)
Eldritch Blast? No real correlation in Pathfinder, but the Pool Ray magus arcana might come close.

The background stuff is just a matter of skill investment.


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I just discovered Fantasy Craft (yeah, way late to this one), and I am seriously considering adopting it into my top five. Got to play a session or so, and its hitting all the mechanics that I've come to enjoy over my fairly robust experience with different tabletop games. Its chassis is so close to 3.5e D&D that it becomes very easy to port things from 3.5e and Pathfinder 1E to work in it, given a few tweaks.

Just thought I'd mention it here. It hits that sweet spot that I've come to recognize when playing 3.5E and PF1E. Its like 3.5E, 4e, PF1E, and Savage Worlds agreed to a temporary cease fire, collaborated, and created something great.