DeathlessOne's page

This is a strange counterargument with regards to Mental Block. Aside from Mental Block, I can also point to Mindwipe or the Bard's Sandman archetype's Stealspell performance (from the very same book that introduced racial favored class bonuses, including ones that provide extra spells known) for that matter. It is not a single spell at play here, and I hope this also answers your accusation of a literalist interpretation by demonstrating that there are other features as well applying the same mechanism of stripping one or more spells known. The issue I am illustrating is a simple one: The rule you assert produces its own problems, if we are to apply it consistently. It seems your preference is to stand by your interpretation and produce exceptions. My preference trends towards consistent rules, where exceptions ought not to be made unless truly necessary. You speak of the specific trumping the general but there is no text here that takes specific exception to favored class bonuses.

Standing by a general rule and allowing for exceptions to exist is an accurate description of my stance. That's the whole mentality behind specific rules trumping general ones. Favored class bonuses, by their very nature, are specific rules that override the general rules of a class. You get X amount of skill points, except FCB can get you another. You get 1dX HP per level, except where FCB can grant you another (and so can a CON modifier). You get X spells known, except where a FCB can grant you another.

And incidentally, I do not believe your argument is bettered for calling a counterpoint a "fringe example" or accusing me of attempting to "undermine the general mechanics of the entire system." That sort of framing is intellectually dishonest in its own regard, as it seeks to presuppose the correctness of one's own position and "win" an argument not by proving why you ought to be correct in the first place but rather by denigrating and casting as misconduct the presence of reasoning that runs to the contrary of your own. I would indeed like to request clarification on your language there.

I stand by what I said. If you are intentionally attempting to use fringe examples (in this case, three sources of the same effect; temporary loss of abilities) to alter the mechanics of a different part of the system (permanent changes to a set of abilities), you are engaging in behavior that is designed to undermine the structure of the rules themselves. My statement of attempting to be polite when I said that was to leave room for the possibility of that being an unintended consequence, and to make it known that my intention was not to directly attack you. If you are fully aware of what you are attempting to do, then I also stand by my statement of intellectual dishonesty and do not care if the same is thrown back at me for calling it out.

As for your assertion that Mental Block is "not unlike someone can't use Power Attack when their strength drops below 13," I would like to point out that it is quite unlike that because those prerequisite mechanics of Power Attack are specific to feats and do not function in other contexts. I have already provided examples before of how classes and their class features work differently with prerequisites than feats do, for instance, so I do not believe we should use mechanics specific to feat prerequisites as guidance for rules interpretations of mechanics that are not feats.

I stand by what I said. It is one temporary loss of access to a feature attempting to overwrite how a more permanent change is made to a feature. Of course there is not a perfect, direct parallel for what is being discussed here. This issue is absurd.

... It does not mean that we cannot or should not interact with the result of that favored class bonus as normal if doing so can change what that favored class bonus provided (which seems to me as an overbroadening of the rule into an unintended context which then produces somewhat thorny and messy mechanical consequences). Once a favored class bonus has been selected, we should simply interact with the result that favored class bonus produces as normal the rest of the way, which I believe is what was intended...

It might be easier for you to see the spells known from the sorcerer class feature and the FCB spells known as from different pools. While you can cast from either pool with your spells per day, your ability to change the spells known only functions for the spells known granted by your sorcerer class.

Anyway, I think I've said all that I need to here. I'll keep an eye out in case there is anything else I can help out with. Most of all, have fun at your table. Rules Sections can get a bit tense at times, but at the end of the day, we need to have tight guidelines for how the system works regardless of how we feel about the issue. What you do at your own table is your own business.

The effects of a single spell, especially that one, is a very specific event and as such is likely to override all other rules that don't address its specific function. And it should not be used by itself to undermine the general mechanics of the entire system behind a sorcerer's spellcasting. Its along the lines of using fringe examples and exceptions to make a general rule. The subject of that spell loses access to the features not unlike someone can't use Power Attack when their strength drops below 13.

Its very possible that I misunderstood the entirety of Diego Rossi's stance. If I align more with Mysterious Stranger, that's fine. I stated my stance on the matter.

Though, I might point out a correction. It is not impossible to LOSE the spells known by a sorcerer through the selection of additional spells via the FCB. Such a thing would happen naturally if the character chose to retrain their class levels into something else, simply by virtue of no longer having those class levels. Retraining back to sorcerer levels might allow you to re-select the FCB, depending on the GM. Retraining such intrinsic details about your spells known (which is a function of your racial disposition towards certain spells) might not be an option, as detailed in the retraining rules, and subject to GM approval.

As a final note: writers and other authors often make mistakes and create unintended effects when their product is not thoroughly vetted (and that's kind of hard to do as they often change hands and not every single person who writes has an encyclopedic working knowledge of the system). Taking a purely literal interpretation of of a single work and trying to change the entire system to make something else in the system work differently is ... not intellectually honest. I am attempting to say that politely, if clarification is required.

For what it matters, I'm of the same mind as Diego Rossi on this matter. You are not able to retrain Favored Class Bonuses (there are no rules for doing so in the Retraining options) and any bonus spells you have access to because of those Favored Class Bonuses are locked in, and not available to be changed on level up.

If it matters at all, the rules for Sorcerers to select new spells at specific levels pre-dated any options for alternate favored class bonuses that granted spells known. Unless there is specific rules that address this new feature that appear later, no one has any logical basis to argue that FCB (nor options granted by those FCB) can be changed.

As far as I am concerned, that house rule is absurd. The ability damage is a product of the creature's attacks (ie, a focused attempt to use its nature to harm another creature), and unless it has a separate ability the broaden being stuck as inflicting the same damage, that house rules is drastically increasing the CR rating of the creature. At the very least, a saving throw should be allowed to avoid the effects of this houserule for each attack. As far as it 'makes sense' for the creature, it doesn't, unless you are also treating every living thing that it brushes up against as taking negative energy damage (including plantlife).

But, to answer your question, aside from Death Ward, there is a magic item called the Scarab of Protection that would help to ward you from 12 such attacks before it is used up.

That is certainly an interesting and unusual character idea Deathless One.

However I am not convinced it is the best solution to the problems you mention in terms of effectiveness.

You still have to spend feats on Medium and maybe heavy armour proficiency and martial weapons. And you can't use your druid spells while in metal armour.

Alternative answers like dragon skin armour and maybe a one level dip into fighter may be more effective.

Apologies for the delayed response, but I've been away on vacation for a bit.

Druids already have medium armor proficiency to begin with, and unless you really want a greatsword to match Gorum's preferred weapon style, a scimitar or scythe are already functional weapons the druid can already use. You can also make use of several of the druid spells to conjure things like a flameblade or trident made of electricity. My character did want a greatsword and the proficiency for that was handled through a trait.

You are correct that non-metal armor is ideal for the character regardless, but just having the ability to make use of metal armor (or shield) and not lose access to your spells for 24 hours is something to consider. Long lasting buffs in the low to mid-levels (before you can afford such armor) allow you to pre-buff and then wear metal armor.

I'm not claiming Druids of Gorum are a fix-all, but they have their uses.

Usually, its the lack of martial weapon proficiency and limitations on armor that get in the way, and have to be worked around, when deciding to play a Nature Fang druid. You can get around the armor issue by worshiping Gorum.

Followers are forbidden from casting the rusting grasp spell. Druids are permitted to wear metal armor, though they do not automatically gain proficiency in any other categories of armor. They cannot cast spells while wearing metal armor, nor does it meld with them when they use wild shape; druids interested in metal armor acquire a set for a specific beast form and have allies or slaves put it on them when it is time to fight.

I played a Nature Fang druid of Gorum in a giantslayer campaign a while back. Crocodile domain, protector familiar, lots of fun.

Most, if not all, archers in my games wear a buckler on their bow arm to avoid this complication. And so their bow (typically the most expensive piece of their gear) never has to be dropped.

I tend to make use of a buckler and (spiked) gauntlets on most of my characters so that they have are 1) always armed, and 2) they have free hand to hold their weapon (bow or other ranged item) in case their need their other hand for something else, like presenting a holy symbol or pulling out another weapon to engage with in melee combat. They also get the benefit of having that shield bonus to AC in case someone does get close.

Serpent (Su): At 1st level, an Asmodean advocate gains a familiar as the arcane bond class feature, using her cleric level as her wizard level. She must choose a viper familiar. The viper speaks one language of the Asmodean advocate’s choice as a supernatural ability.

You gain a familiar as a wizard does. Familiar has a bonus language.

Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp): At 1st level, wizards form a powerful bond with an object or a creature. This bond can take one of two forms: a familiar or a bonded object. A familiar is a magical pet that enhances the wizard's skills and senses and can aid him in magic, while a bonded object is an item a wizard can use to cast additional spells or to serve as a magical item. Once a wizard makes this choice, it is permanent and cannot be changed. Rules for bonded items are given below, while rules for familiars are at the end of this section.

Go to the rules for the Familiars and locate Viper.

You will use all the statistics in that stat block, and then add in the additional details from the Familiars table up to your level, except where the Figment archetype changes them. So, your familiar with have: Alertness, share spells, empathic link, and Speak with master, plus the Figment options: Recurring Dream and Manifest Dreams (1 evolution).

As a Figment familiar, it only has 1/4 your HP rather than 1/2 as normal. When you go back to update your stat block, make sure that you adjust the BAB to +4 (your current at 6th level) and saving throw bases (+5 fort, +2 ref, +5 will to match your bonuses at 6th level). Also, adjust the DC for the Viper's poison to reflect its effective HD (which should be the same as your class level), it should be DC 12 (10+3-1, base+halflevel+conmod). Your familiars attack bonus for its bite should be +9 (4+3+2, BAB+Dex+Size), damage remains unchanged.

You wont get any new feats for your Viper familiar, but you can select a new evolution to apply every morning. I'd recommend Reach if you intend to have the snake actively try to bite people, so it doesn't have to move into their square (and provoke an AoO). Skilled (Stealth) or (Perception) if you want it to be a scout or sneaky familiar, but its range is limited.

That should be everything you need for your level. Word of caution for your level 8 option to select an Imp familiar. Improved familiars don't usually get archetypes. Check with your GM to see if they have any issues.

Likewise, look at the monster creation rules for a table that outlines expectations based on CR rating. Adjust accordingly with how far you deviate from the standard assumptions of 15 point buy and 4 to 5 member parties that most adventure paths assume. If you use the 20 point buy that PFS made common, tack on an additional +1 to the CR range.

Monster Creation Rules

I may be missing something as I have never played the archetype and haven't played a oracle.

Spirit Guide gets only a restricted version of the wandering spirit and grants only one hex, which wanders too. It costs 3 revelations, leaving only 3.

My favoured Speaker for the Past gets 5 revelations and 8 hexes. It seems to me that this must be much better. Can the restricted wandering spirit really be that good?

Spirit Guide Oracles also receive (some of) the spirit abilities of the spirit as well as access to the spirit magic spells, which they add to their spells known for they day. The added spells alone is pretty much worth a single revelation, while the spirit abilities themselves are each generally equivalent to a revelation. The fact that you can CHANGE them every day makes them very valuable.

For the Life Spirit, that is:
Spells: detect undead (1st), lesser restoration (2nd), neutralize poison (3rd), restoration (4th), breath of life (5th), heal (6th), greater restoration (7th), mass heal (8th), true resurrection (9th)
Spirit Abilities: Channel Energy (7th level) and Healer's Touch (15th level).

Personally, I'd put a Spirit Guide Oracle and a basic Shaman on the same footing of power. The Oracle edges out the Shaman for having a better spell list, but the Shaman gets access to higher level spells a level earlier. I am extremely biased with these two classes though.

I am not much of a fan of the Cleric and that is because I find them mechanically boring. Add an archetype or two that change things up and you've got my attention again. Their domains and channel energy are pretty much the only thing they have going for them outside of their spell list. Also, I'm not that much of a fan of prepared casters. I am not knocking the Cleric by any means. It is a solid and powerful class. I just find them not very aesthetically pleasing. If given the choice between a Cleric and a 6th level casting divine class with more class features, I'd pick the 6th level caster almost every time.

Oracles... well, I like spontaneous casters so this is more my style despite the later spell access. The mystery, revelations, and curse allow you a great deal of flexibility in creating what you want. I would say this is my favorite class out of the four, except ... its not. It gets REALLY close when you use the Spirit Guide archetype, because now it pulls in some things from the Shaman class, which is my favorite class. They've got the spell slots to heal, access to channel energy (two forms through Spirit Guide and the Life/Restoration spirit).

Druid... I vastly prefer to play a druid over a cleric. Despite sharing a few things (like prepared casting, domain access), I just like the flavor and versatility that wild shape and having an animal companion allows. I enjoy the buffs and druid specific spells. And the archetypes are ... well, there are a bunch of duds that only shift a few things, but then there are others like Elemental Ally that just tickle me. Druids are not the best healers, lacking access to Channel Energy except through very specific domains that effect very specific subtypes. The selection of certain feats to enhance your wildshape can even let you smite very similarly to a Paladin. Druid is my 'go to' divine caster selection when I'm playing a wilderness themed or adjacent game.

Now, for Shaman. I am dangerously biased towards this class for what could appear to hypocritical reasons. It is a prepared caster, but CAN spontaneously cast their spirit spells depending on selections. They combine the two class I enjoy a lot (witches and oracles). Even before archetypes, their range of versatility is impressive. They are the ONLY CLASS that can combine the powers of a familiar and animal companion in one creature.

I'm fairly certain that the (few ways of) entry into the Mystic Theurge prestige class with only one level of a divine caster class aren't entirely PFS legal. The Faith Magic arcane discovery method is definitely not PFS legal, and I'm fairly sure Witches have no means in which to access that arcane discovery.

Sorry for being the bearer of bad news. If you weren't a witch but a wizard....

The only option that I believe has a shot is the Spirit Whisperer archetype for the Wizard that selects the Lore Spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment hex, as the archetype and spirit are both PFS legal.

I only use it to tweak the existing races when the players want to play something interesting. I do not let them use it to custom make their own races.

... a well prepared enemy might just ready an action to coup de grace the witch themselves when she let herself be helpless.

A minor point of correction here, just to make sure no one get the wrong idea about readying actions:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. ...

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe...

You cannot ready a full-round action, unless you've got another ability that explicitly allows it or lets you reduce the action cost.

I am also pretty sure you cannot use familiar archetypes with Hand's Detachment. Since the Detached hand lacks the abilities those trade out it does not qualify for the archetypes.

You are correct that it wont qualify for those archetypes, unless you choose it to be your actual familiar.

“3 feat pet” isn’t really fair. Possessed hand is a +1 to attack and damage with some other minor perks. And autonomy is an improvement to dual wielding with some other minor perks. People will certainly stop on either one of those feats and never progress to detachment.

Its totally worth it to progress the hand to the Detachment stage, simply to get access to familiar archetypes.

Generally, you can only get 'one' familiar, as pretty much all sources refer back to the wizard class to determine how it works, and the entry for familiars specify adding together all levels to figure out the effective wizard level.

Now, there is no explicit line of text that says you can't have more than one, but the language is written in such a way as to never acknowledge having more than one. Even familiar-adjacent abilities (like bonded items, or blackblades) specify that you can't have that ability and a familiar at the same time. There may be some exceptions where a specific class feature (or a spell) allows for more than one at any given time, but you have to examine those individually as they come up.

Ask your GM if the permanent effects of Fire Ink would suffice to meet that requirement. Its not actual flame, but unless you have fire resistance, it sickens you.

The issue is that I have a rather particular character I want to play. It's not about trying to min/max some game mechanic. It's about the RP and trying to find mechanics that reflect that RP of the characters. Beyond that, there are many questions about the class and archetype that are just unclear.

Unclear, or just not immediately a convenient match for the character you want to play? I have experience with both of those, and the later tends to happen more often with players that want the mechanics to work one particular way, and more often than I like, for a specific purpose they aren't generally upfront with at the start. Generally, I find the mechanics to be quite clear when read just as they are.

Regardless of that, work with your GM to tweak the mechanics to fit your idea. I often do that myself. An example was someone wanted to play a Surki (PF2e ancestry) in a PF1 game that I am running. I helped translate the race over and even allowed some Suli-only feats to be taken as the Sukri tend to have an elemental affinity.

Whatever your goal is, just tell the GM (or us if you really want our help). From what I can tell, you are trying to make some sort of devil/demon cursed, divine magic summoner that has a 'tainted' Azata at your beck and call. For what purpose, I have no idea. But it sounds fun.

I'm not seeing very many prior posts from you regarding this particular matter. "The Unchained Eidolon Azata of an LN Soulbound Summoner will have the Lawful subtype, with all of its benefits and drawbacks." - But it looks like your alignment subtype question was answered pretty clearly.

What issue are you having with Oracle curses? Are you having an issue with a specific curse, such as Demonic and Hellbound, which preclude you from summoning creatures of specific alignment subtypes? If so, there is a verify obvious and clear answer: You wouldn't be able to summon your Eidolon if its subtypes are the ones blacklisted by your curse. So don't pick an incompatible eidolon. Not all options are designed to play nice together.

Also the context of "area contains an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture dedicated to your deity, pantheon, or aligned higher power". Asmodeus as an advocate, it does not directly specify a permanently fixed altar or give boundaries of what constitutes 'permanent'.

I would have enjoyed being present in that debate because of all the holes that I'd pick apart in that logic, but this isn't the rules forums and it is not my table, so I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty. Let's just say that the devil is in the details, and the sentence structure.

All said and done, if your group is having fun with it, all the better. Now, has the GM done something similar and had a necromancer carting around a desecrated shrine to empower his mobile army?

I want to add to this how much consecrate could add to this build if you are largely up against undead.

Our Paladin hates undead and wants to obliterate them en masse, so (by GM permission) we now carry around cracked altar of Iomedae (an intact wouldn't work for my unwilling Oracle to consecrate it) in 1/16 scale. Their -2 to will saves and the +6 to the DC means that their failure rate doesn't depend on his Charisma modifier.

Your GM is very permissive indeed if they are ignoring the rather heavily reinforced language of altars being permanent fixtures, both in context and explicitly detailed in the descriptions for such items. Wondrous Items - Altars

Ah, 3rd party. Makes sense I'm not familiar with it.

I am not familiar with the Gauntlet Witch archetype. What's the source on that?

If I were pricing it, I'd place the total market value around 7,500gp for giving the +5 to caster level checks to activate the scrolls stored inside. It would be more since the item is a slotless magic item but since it is only useful for activating the scrolls, I'd call it a wash.

If you wanted to give the scroll charges that can be used to give the caster level a boost a certain number of times per day, such as 5 times per day, I'd knock off some of the price and make the scroll case cost 6,500gp instead.

I'm curious if any of you allow for players to commission magic items to be made that combine the effects of two (or more items)? Generally, I allow for someone to stacks the effects of a natural armor amulet and a phylactery if they are willing to pay more.

Take the most expensive item's market value and then add the next item's value with an additional 50% markup. So, base item is 15k and the other is 5k? That will be 22.5kgp And if the other item isn't meant for the same 'slot', thats an additional 50% markup on the 2nd item. I don't allow slotless items to be used for this.

Doing that, I've never had issues with people getting the items they want.

From my reading, anything that uses the "x/level" phrasing will be affected. Characters do not lose access to class feature abilities. So a druid would have reduced time in wild shape but not which creatures the druid has access to become. Barbarians would have fewer rounds of rage and bards lose performance rounds, but they don't lose level prerequisites for rage powers or which bardic performances they can use.

This is different than 3rd Ed rules, so I think many GMs still use those as house rules.

I respectfully disagree with Mysterious Stranger on sneak attack, as that is +1d6 every odd level, so it would be retained, as would a ranger's favored enemy bonus. The verbiage for these is that the features increase at specific levels. Fighter weapon and armor training, monk AC and unarmed damage, and paladin smites per day would likewise not be affected by level drain. May be splitting hairs on my part, so YMMV.

Just tipping my hat in here to agree with you. I think you nailed it. Just to add my 2 coppers, while a Paladin's Smites Per Day would not be effected, the damage added to their attacks would be (as that is level dependent).

For animal companions just purchase their items normally from the remaining WBL. ABP does not completely replace purchasing of magic items, it simply gives the character level appropriate gear without having to deal with the details.

Well, no. It does completely replace magic items, only specific types of them. You are correct on at least that much.

Items that only grant bonuses to AC, saving throws, and ability scores don’t exist in this variant, and wish and similar spells never grant inherent bonuses to ability scores. Magic weapons and armor do exist, but grant only special abilities, not enhancement bonuses; calculate their prices with the table in the Magic Weapons and Armor section.

If you want to remove magic items entirely (or make them so exceedingly rare that there is no expectation of finding them), consider giving the characters bonuses from the following table as if they were 2 levels higher. The table extends to 22nd level to account for games without magic items.

So, things that grant bonuses to attacks, saving throws, ability scores, armor, etc, etc would not exist in a way to be able to purchase them. Making it possible to equip an animal companion or other companion creature with magic items normally with the other half of the intended wealth does seem like a way around this, but is a bit immersion breaking.

Just to be clear, ABP is not a system that works 100% out-of-the-book RAW with zero changes by the GM. But the changes needed are very easy to make, and the system makes games significantly better. ABP produces more rounded out characters, it lessens the martial/caster disparity, is reduces the amount of system mastery required to have a functional character, and it curtails excessive min-maxxing.

Maybe this should clear something up: I never said that it works 100% out of the box and only expressed concern about implementing it in specific situations. I'm not sure why you've chosen to take the interpretation you have about the matter but its probably more constructive to stop while you are ahead. Maybe dial back the assumptions of universal application and keep the discussion within the original scope of my statements?

It is forbidden as a shortcut to perfection. (Hint: A certain god would possibly strike a follower down for using this feat in this way.)

You've lost me. All I got out of that was that its a feat, and I couldn't readily find one on AoN that grants channeling aside from Adept Channel.

Cleric BAB 0.75; Saves 0.66, 0.33, 0.66;

Envoy of Balance PrC BAB 0.5; Saves 0.33, 0.33, 0.5;

seems like more cleric means better overall abilities and perhaps Envoy should be ignored.
A dip into Monk, Paladin, Ranger, or Fighter would be better.

When you are dealing with the Cleric spell list, the loss of +1 BAB and roughly +1 to your good save to get the four levels of Envoy, doesn't mean anything. Clerics don't really get any new 'abilities' beyond 8th level (their domain typically, and the reason why I tend to avoid playing them. I find them mechanically boring).

DeathlessOne wrote:

If you want a TON of Channel Energy ...

There is a way to have substantially more, but it is a dark, dark secret.

Oh? Pray tell. One of the only other ways I know how to get a channel pool without introducing new classes (and thus reducing the overall effective level of the channel pool) is through the Adept Channel feat, and that's just two more channel uses a day.

For Eidolons nothing changes, plus you should not even have an AoMF at 4th level (being more than half your WBL). Similar for Animal Companions, there's no way you have an AomF at 4th level, and you don't need to have magic damage on both the PC and the pet at that level. Also, Magic Fang is on the Druid, Hunter, Ranger, and Summoner spell list.

Yes, I am familiar with how the wealth per level operates within the Pathfinder 1e ruleset, as well as the options available on those spell lists. Where did I give you any kind of reason to believe that an amulet of mighty fists was needed at 4th level?

For Eidolons you can just have the Summoner's player pick who to apply the bonus to, making it work virtually identical to having the actual items. For Animal Companions et al., you can just let the let the player buy the normal items, as the Druid/Cavalier/etc. would need to spend money on that in addition to their own gear, anyway.

This is why I am hesitant to even try the ABP rules, because I can easily glance at the bonuses offered and tell they aren't easily translatable into many of the companion classes without heavy tweaking. In addition, there are areas of conflict where the ABP provided a typed bonus that is already duplicated by a class feature, and like bonuses don't stack. This creates areas that are unforeseen stress points where the game expects you to spend your wealth on other things because that class already has accounted for one of the big six to be covered.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the ABP at all. I'm just making observations.

If you want a TON of Channel Energy ... Spirit Guide Oracle (Life Mystery + Restoration Spirit) with the Variant Multiclass Cleric would net you THREE pools of Channel Energy (two Channel Positive, one that could qualify you for Versatile Channeler).

Yeah, you'd be giving up five feats, but the domain (or inquisition if you choose to pick one instead) choice could be well worth it.

Just to swag it, because of the restrictions on Eidolons and PC and items, you could rule that either your character or the Eidolon can have any given bonus, and once it increase beyond +1 you could split it from +2 to one of you to +1 to both for any given thing.

I considered that, briefly. But a recent encounter of mine in a game reinforced the importance of both the character and their companions having access to at least a +1 enhancement bonus to their attacks at around level 4 to get around magical damage reduction or the complete immunity incorporeal creatures have to non-magic weapons. So, splitting the bonus doesn't seem like a viable option.

I haven't really explored using ABP simply due to the lack of rules regarding how to treat animal companions, eidolons, and other companion creatures that are normally outfitted with the character's wealth to spend on them. There is simply too much table variation on how to go about it that it wasn't worth the investment.

Which oracle mysteries have channel energy?

Only the Life Mystery provides access to Channel Positive Energy.

There is an archetype for the Cleric that does the Twinned Channeling trick already built into its progression: Stoic Caregiver. It locks you only getting to pick one domain. At 6th level, you get to channel both positive and negative energy, each at half-strength. If you pick the Death domain, and reach level 8, you could get healed by both of these bursts and exclude your allies from the harmful effects (via Selective Channel, of course). I'd recommend Pharasma as your deity, as it fits into her whole niche.

Once you are able to Three-Aspect Channel, an argument could be made that you now qualify for Versatile Channeler (or could have at level 1, since neither your alignment nor deity required you to pick your channel positive energy class feature), and you could pick up those four levels of Envoy of Balance. Having the ability to use one Channel Energy for two 1/2 strength channels, or two Channel Energies for two full strength channels might be useful.

Quick Channel and another source of Channel Energy will put out a decent amount of healing/damage if you can manage it.

All it would do is encourage spellcasters to find ways to get those metamagic effects in other ways, at the very worst they'd have to take the feat they want and try to get a trait that reduces the effective level change. You'd likely end up with more incentive to play Sorcerers as they have some interesting bloodline abilities to work metamagic.

Likewise, spellcasters would likely opt to purchase scrolls that have been made by spellcasters with the metamagic feats already, and then use those.

It is indeed an issue that I used to struggle with. "Infinite Cosmic Power... itty bitty living space". A line from a childhood animated film with so much depth and meaning lost to so many people.

The game is only as hard, or as easy, as you choose to make it. We use dice to simulate forces outside of our control, effectively giving up a certain level of agency within the story, and yet then try to mitigate that loss of control with acquiring every kind of modifier to weigh the result in our favor. Somewhere, we lost sight of what we were trying to do, or we never understood it in the first place.

So long as you keep the CR system in mind when making your choices (this goes for both the GM and the players), you can preserve that feeling of challenge and excitement at the unknown. In most cases, naturally, as human error or lack of foresight does allow for outliers on all sides (player, GM, and game designer).

As a player, I limit my instinct to power game and restrict my choices to better fit the narrative and overall story I want to tell from my side of the game. That is how I deal with this issue. As a GM, I tell the kind of story that the players want to experience, and let them worry about what kind of challenges the provoke from the world itself.

Faith Magic is the only entry I think is worth serious consideration.

Wizard 7/Cleric 1/MT 10/Wizard 2

You only give up a level of wizard progress, which is tolerable. The down side is that your divine spells are quite a bit behind your arcane ones. But if you want to have Lesser Restoration on hand, it's not a terrible route.

Consideration is a highly subjective term. From my own viewpoint, I'd eagerly and enthusiastically play probably the most non-optimal combinations of Sorcerer4/Shaman4 with a Mystic Theurge, and I'd still classify it as worth consideration.

Viewing the game, and the viability of options, through a purely mechanical lens is going to kneecap 90% of the possibilities the system offers you. Yes, there are mechanically superior ways in order to go about engaging the system, but many of them remove the challenges that are baked into the CR system and have you swinging far above your power curve. Its self-defeating to engage in that kind of playstyle.

But all of this is drifting into a kind of gaming philosophy, of which I often find myself opposed. No need to rehash it all. The conclusion I've reached is that you simply cannot change some people's mind about certain options until you hand walk them through the journey of playing such a character so they get to experience it directly.

Yes, all of that I am aware of. I've never stated a Mystic Theurge is better than a single classed caster. Instead of arguing about why someone shouldn't take it, I am advising them on the best ways to do it. And how to go about staying relevant throughout your adventuring career while doing it.

That build does address some of the problems with the mystic theurge. It still has the problem of slower access to higher level spells and lower caster level in one of the classes. This raises the mystic theurge from a trap to a weak choice. The big drawback is that this locks in your alignment and deity. I do not like evil characters and many tables do not allow them. Even Chaotic Neutral can be problematic and is often discouraged in many groups.

But any other build that does not do something similar is a trap.

This build is one of many I will be putting together, many of which are not deity or alignment restricted, and I probably the one with the LEAST amount of spells per day. I chose to do it first because it shares a casting stat and is at the early entry.

Table variation is not something I am addressing nor something I want to argue about, as it is entirely subjective.

I've been slowly updating my Mystic Theurge guide as time and motivation allow. I've started to do full builds, starting with my "Far Realms Seducer" combination of Seducer Witch and Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric. Its a deep dive on on the numbers, especially spells per day and spell level access. I account for bonus spells from high ability scores (I ignore cantrips/orisons for calculations, but list them on tables). Check it out, if you want. It has its own tab for the Far Realms Seducer.

Quick Run down: Level 8 is where a Witch/Cleric/MT has more spells per day than a pure leveled cleric (112%, or 3 more spells per day). It surpasses a pure witch very early on, but thats due to lack of built in bonus spells like the cleric gets from a domain. The gap in access to higher level spells always remains in favor of the pure classes, naturally. Level 12 is where things get really noticeable, when the Mystic Theurge has 141% of the spells per day of a pure cleric.

I plan on doing full level 20 builds for each of my 'Focused' Classes (ie, share the same casting stat), with minor attention paid to magic items that are key to spellcasting.

EDIT: Disclaimer, I am basing all my mystic theurge builds on a half-elf due to their unique racial abilities to boost caster levels. This doesn't effect spells per day.

A build I am currently trying out is a sorcerer/cleric.

For sorcerer I took the celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype so that I use Wis for both classes.
For the cleric I took an archetype that trades away channel energy.

I have four examples for a spontaneous arcane and divine prepared caster that make use of the Sorcerer. Two specifically that make use of the Cleric.

1) Sorcerer / Cleric (Empyreal / Ecclesitheurge) aka Divine Destiny - Makes use of your almost useless channel energy pool to buff your allies, and uses the Luck/Freedom domains for their granted powers. WISDOM BASED

2) Sorcerer / Cleric (Cross-blooded: Any / Elder Mythos Cultist) aka Mutters of Madness - Recommends: Rime-Blooded & Void-Touched wild bloodlines and the Void domain. Specializing in cold allows for some serious debuffs. CHARISMA BASED

For some builds that use other classes to pair with Sorcerer

3) Sorcerer / Druid (Empyreal / Halcyon Druid) aka Whispers of the Wise - Less flash than some of the other builds but doesn't tie you to a deity. WISDOM BASED

4) Sorcerer / Shaman (Empyreal / Unsworn Shaman) aka Woes of the Wilderness - You want to focus on evocation spells, and boost your spell DCs. The Waves spirit is your friend, as with Crashing Waves combined with any spell with the water descriptor means knocking down your enemies. Benthic Spell (metamagic) plus Produce Flame (or Pale Flame) will make you dangerous. You can also get numerous hexes with this build, making you much more than just your spells. WISDOM BASED.

If you want a detailed guide to the options that work best for a Mystic Theurge (though minus the questionable early entry shenanigans), you can check out my mostly-complete-but-still-WIP guide. It includes a link to another guide that explores the early entry stuff as well.

You are quite welcome. If this was at my table, I'd likely allow it.

Pretty sure you cannot take different archetypes that alter the same class feature, not without GM permission. Acquiring a lower level version of a class feature later would be a modification of that class feature.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

If you don’t want to be the archer by level 6 you are either doing things quite well or you are the most team oriented player in the whole game.

Guilty. Haha

Yeah, I still get those moments in games I play in, even if the game gets to level 16 as in the one I am currently active. I usually have a backup character ready to go in case the worst happens too.

Since this thread got necro-ed, I'll toss in my recommendation.

Race: Half-Elf (*Duskwalker*)
Alternate Racial Trait: Multidisciplined (Druid, Spiritualist)
Alignment: Neutral Good/True Neutral
Classes: Druid 16/Spiritualist 4 VMC Cleric
Archetypes: Elemental Ally/Totem Spiritualist
Deity: Sarenrae
Granted Domain: Chivlary Inquistion (Mount Class feature)
Important Feats: 1-*Racial Heritage* (Duskwalker), 5-Personal Chronicler, 9-Boon Companion*
*(If the GM allows Boon Companion to effect Eidolons. If not, optimize the hell out of those Eidolons. Consider taking Summon Guardian Spirit if Boon Companion is not an option.)
Traits: Magical Knack (Spiritualist), Bifurcated Magic (Druid, Spiritualist); consider a drawback to get access to Use Magic Device
Total Caster Level Boosts: +2 Druid, +3 Spiritualist

Level Progression should look something like this:
1- Druid 1 (CL D1) [4 Eidolons]
-- Feat: Racial Heritage
2- Spiritualist 1 (CL D2/S2) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom]
3- Druid 2 (CL D3/S3) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount]
-- VMC Domain: Chivalry Inquisition
4- Druid 3 (CL D4/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount]
5- Druid 4 (CL D5/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
-- Feat: Personal Chronicler
6- Druid 5 (CL D6/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
7- Druid 6 (CL D7/S4) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
8- Spiritualist 2 (CL D8/S5) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
9- Druid 7 (CL D9/S5) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
-- Feat: Boon Companion
10 - Spiritualist 3 (CL D9/S6) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
11 - Spiritualist 4 (CL D9/S7) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
12+ - Druid 8+ (CL D10+/S7) [4 Eidolons + 1 Phantom + 1 Mount + 1 Familiar]
------
15 - (See if your GM will allow you to trade off the 8th level Inquisition ability for access to Sarenrae's Divine Fighting Technique, as you lack a Judgement class feature and the rules for the Divine Fighting Technique allow for swapping out a lower level domain power for access to the feat).

Tips: At level 12 and beyond, you are purely leveling Druid. You should be maxing out Use Magic Device, and making use of it to support your allies. You should be making use of your familiar to deliver touch spells to allies you cannot otherwise reach. The biggest tip I can offer is this: DO NOT ABUSE HAVING SO MANY COMPANIONS. You will eventually have FOUR independent characters you are controlling, including yourself. That's pretty much an entire self-contained party. You chose to do this, so get prepared to delegate. Train your Phantom Animal or Mount (Familiar can be ordered, it's smart) to serve another PC, and let the OTHER PLAYER give them orders so they act on their turn.

Eidolons: Specialize each of them for different movement types and roles. Fire is meant for speed and guerilla combat (Quadruped). Air is meant for climbing (eventually flying?) and scouting (Serpentine). Earth is meant for defense and power (Biped). Water is meant for swimming and battlefield control (Aberrant). Consider making it possible for one, or more, of you Eidolons are capable of serving as a mount for you or another player character (consider taking the Defending Eidolon feat as one of your character feats). Take Obedience feats with the Eidolons if you want. You can get Trapfinding or Damage Reduction through these methods.

Phantom: This will be (most likely) your most powerful 'summon', especially if you can't use Boon Companion to boost your Eidolons. Optimize it. It doesn't get the high(er) Intelligence that Eidolons get, so you need to bump its Intelligence so it can pick any feat, and you will need to occasionally issue it orders, which can take a free action or up to a move action depending. Do not neglect your Handle Animal skill.

Mount: This class feature is self-explanatory. Either you (or someone else) will be using this companion as a mount (see the Serve trick). You will be issuing orders, do not neglect Handle Animal. Consider the Intercept Blow feat.

Familiar: You can go in widely different directions with this. Protector, Figment, Mascot, or whatever you need. It just comes with the downside of having to shun undead and refusing to work with them.

Spellcasting: Your caster level is fine in the beginning but eventually you will fall behind a bit, and your spell level access will be stunted. But you don't need to worry about that. Your job is to give orders and direct your minions in the fight, buff them and your allies (Mage armor goes a LOOOOONG way for Eidolons and Phantom), and save your other spell slots for emergency healing (spontaneous cure AND summon nature's ally for the instances that you lose an Eidolon or Phantom). If all you have to do in combat is shoot a crossbow or misc ranged touch attack, you are doing your job.

Skills: Handle Animal and Use Magic Device are important to you. Perception and Survival are smart to take as well. Spellcraft if you can afford it. Everything else should get at least one rank if its a class skill.

Gear: Wands, scrolls, staves, and potions. You want whatever misc magical items you can get your hands on. The only critter you will be outfitting with gear (other than yourself) is your Mount, with an extra saddle or whenever you summon an Eidolon or Phantom. The Share Slot evolution will be useful so you can give gear to your Eidolons and still make use of your own.

FINAL TIP: Don't try to build this character in Herolab Online. You'll reach the complexity limit by level 8. Herolab Classic (offline) is your only hope.

...

When in a corresponding terrain, as determined by the ranger favored terrain categories, her element changes to the corresponding element (granting her class skills, basic utility wild talent, simple blast, and elemental defense as appropriate)...

You do not gain additional SKILL POINTS, but your class skills shift to that of your current element, which will mean a loss of the free +3 bonus for having ranks in a class skill that is no longer a class skill, but you get that +3 bonus in another skill, until it shifts again.