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RPG Superstar 8 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 19,271 posts (19,489 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 4 aliases.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I actually think Summoner is an interesting, decently balanced, Class as is. Maybe a tad on the weak side in terms of utility, but certainly viable.

But, as discussions have come up I've noticed more and more little things that it lacks that are just feel bad moments when they come up. Do all of them need to be changed? Probably not, but I thought I'd enumerate them anyway.

1. Eidolon Ability Scores. Eidolons don't actually get superhumanly strong, or agile, or anything like that. This is...kind of a feel bad moment, actually. They're supposed to be these fantastic creatures, and yet they're restricted to very middle of the road PC stats for their level. Replacing some of their higher Proficiencies with higher Ability Scores would really help make them feel better, at least IMO. An Eidolon with only Expert attacks but +7 Str feels a lot more like a powerful creature than one with Master but only +5 Str.

Constitution also does a lot less for them than for PCs, as does Intelligence, which makes it weird they increase those in the same manner as PCs and at the same cost to their other stats (since Con doesn't give HP, and Int doesn't grant Skills). Really, them increasing stats like PCs is weird and has weird knock-on effects, and something more like how an animal companion raises Ability scores might be good in that respect.

As a related, actual math, issue, Eidolons fall behind all other PCs in combat very specifically at 17th level due to lack of access to Apex Items. Some solution for that, either letting them take advantage of the Summoner's Apex Item or an equivalent stat bump, seems warranted.

2. Summoners don't actually summon anything. There's a bit of Feat support, but with only four spells a day, and likewise only four in your repertoire, I'm not even sure the Feats are really worth it. Some inherent Summon ability, perhaps as a pool like Clerics have for Heal or Harm seems like it would be a good option. This is a power up, but frankly not a very big one given the action economy hassles involved. Feats to expand creature types like Wild Shape has seem like they'd be a must with this set up.

3. No 1st level or free Eidolon customizability. Beyond picking a creature type, the Eidolon cannot be customized outside of Feats. That's no big deal for combat capabilities, but it's harsh on fun, theme, and utility options. Someone suggested something on par with, and similar to, Familiar Abilities and I think that's a great idea. I'm thinking things like Burrower, Resistance to a specific Element, an extra language, an extra Skill, things like that. They wouldn't need a huge number (two at 1st level would be plenty, and maybe more as you level) for this to feel really good, and really help out people who miss Eidolon customizability from PF1.

Liberty's Edge

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Using Synthesis makes both Boost Eidolon and Evolution Surge impossible. This makes it, well, kind of bad since those (particularly Boost Eidolon) are rather essential to the math of Eidolon combat.

Not casting spells in general seems a pretty valid price to pay for not having a squishy Summoner available to smash, but losing out on what seem to intentionally be Class Features in the form of spells that make the Eidolon's math and options actually work is really harsh.

I'd suggest that conduit spells be specifically allowed with Synthesis to make it actually workable at the thing it seems like it's supposed to do.

Liberty's Edge

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So, per a conversation I had on these forums with Mark Seifter, in general, when making NPCs, the people at Paizo give them lower Ability Score modifiers than monsters of the same level, so as to be more similar to PCs and thus not make the PCs look bad in comparison. This isn't much difference at low levels, but matters quite a bit at high ones.

This is a good ruling, and has been held to by the Bestiaries, GMG, and Extinction Curse for the most part. But Age of Ashes predates it being made clear to everyone and some of the NPCs in AoA hew much more closely to monster stats, which often look overblown and inappropriate compared to those of PCs (or even those of other NPCs who better follow these gidelines). Exceptions can be made for those with a good reason, like half-dragons, but random NPCs shouldn't vastly exceed PC stat capacities in raw Ability scores.

Now, this seldom matters as changing stats does not change skills for NPCs, and is thus only used for Untrained Skills, but since this is, in fact, an error, and almost certainly not one that will be officially corrected due to how minor it is, I'm going to do it myself. What can I say? I may not be running this at the moment, but doing this makes me feel better about the whole thing.

So, here those are. Anything not listed is unchanged:

Chapter 2:

Gerhard Pendergast (p.37): Str +3, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +0, Wis -1, Cha +4
Hezle (p.50): Str -1, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +5, Wis +2, Cha +3
Charau-Ka Dragon Priest (p.59): Str +4, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +3

Chapter 3:

One Eye Amnin (p.23): Str +5, Dex +3, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +1

Chapter 4:

Talamira (p.8): Str -5, Dex +4, Con +0, Int +5, Wis +5, Cha +4
Xevalorg (p.14): Str +8, Dex +4, Con +5, Int +2, Wis +5, Cha +4
Corrupt Guards (p.27): Str +5, Dex +3, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +1
Kralgurn (p.31): Str +5, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +3
Thea (p.31): Str +2, Dex +5, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +5
Zuferian (p.37): Str +2, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +0
Duergar Slave Lords (p.50): Str +4, Dex +5, Con +3, Int +2, Wis +5, Cha +3
Kelda Halrig (p.87): Str +4, Dex +1, Con +3, Int +4, Wis +3, Cha +3
Ilssrah Embermead (p.89): Str +4, Dex +2, Con +3, Int +3, Wis +5, Cha +5

Chapter 5:

Bshez 'Sand Claws' Shzak (p.34): Str +5, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +5
Scarlet Triad Enforcers (p.41): Str +6, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +3, Cha +3
Zephyr Guard (p.51): Str +5, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +3, Cha +3
Scarlet Triad Boss (p.57): Str +4, Dex +6, Con +3, Int +5, Wis +4, Cha +3
Scarlet Triad Mage (p.57): Str +2, Dex +4, Con +3, Int +4, Wis +3, Cha +6
Urizandivar (p.93): Str +7, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +5, Wis +5, Cha +6

Chapter 6:

Rinnarv Bontimar (p.24): Str +6, Dex +5, Con +6, Int +3, Wis +4, Cha +7
Promise Guard (p.29): Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +3, Cha +2
Ingnovim Tluss (p.39): Str +8, Dex +5, Con +9, Int +7, Wis +3, Cha +2
Candlaron's Echo (p.56): Str -5, Dex +8, Con +0, Int +7, Wis +6, Cha +6
Illgreth (p.57): Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +7, Wis +4, Cha +5
Emaliza Zandivar (p.87): Str +2, Dex +5, Con +5, Int +8, Wis +5, Cha +6

Liberty's Edge

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So, in various threads, I've seen a lot of people seem to struggle to convert PF1 characters (whether PCs or NPCs) to PF2, a process I generally find both fun and easy (at least conceptually). And to be clear, by 'convert' I mean make a PF2 character who can fulfill the same role narratively and do the same stuff in-world, not necessarily a perfect 100% reflection (though many will come close).

Pursuant to this, I'm offering to, well, do that. For anyone who wants, and most characters and with the final version as either a PC-built character or using the Monster Creation rules (pick one when you make the request).

I'd rather wait until the APG is out to do Investigators, Swashbucklers, Witches, or Oracles for obvious reasons, and ditto for Ancestries to be found in that volume, so hold off on those please (well, unless we're talking an Oracle 1/Sorcerer 10 or something...that probably just converts as a Sorcerer), and I'd obviously be hard pressed to convert Classes with unique mechanics we can't duplicate yet as PCs (a Kineticist, Magus, or Occultist just isn't quite buildable yet), so please don't ask for those.

But you want an AP character or module NPC or previous PC of your own converted? I'm interested in doing so, and in discussing the process.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I've decided to put up a House Rules document. It's fairly slim at the moment aside from Alchemist fixes (of which there are a number.) Commentary and critique are appreciated.

Here it is.

Liberty's Edge

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Found here. Obviously this post/thread will miss a lot of nuance so check it out if you want more of those.

-Discussion of upcoming events and Humble Bundle offerings (including an upcoming Lost Omens Lore bundle).
-Lyz Lidell is not there, so Oracle and Witch stuff is a bit less in depth (Oracle, in particular, seems to get a very short discussion).
-After going through the Classes they rapidly just started talking about the APG in general.


-Logan was sick and rushed for the initial Class design stuff. That seemed relevant to me.
-They note that the two main complaints with Investigator were that Int didn't do enough and that Study Suspect was disappointing. They will do things about these, though what exactly is up in the air.
-Investigator will probably depart further from the PF1 version, as our surveys support that we're collectively cool with that.
-The narrative Investigator stuff was well received and will thus continue.
-There will be more combat options in the Feats for the finished version, but they wanted to test the non-combat ones.
-Investigator was mostly well liked...except for the problems noted above.
-Combat options using Int are likely. Sometimes using it for Skills or Perception is possible, but probably only in specific circumstances.


-Oracle's Curse had very erratic ratings in terms of power level, and was generally considered too weak. The downsides were too severe, the upsides were not sufficient, and the Revelation spells need to be better chosen.
-Overcharging knocking you unconscious seems unpleasant, so it's probably being replaced. The current forerunner for replacement is that you get no more Focus Spells if you overcharge, and that may or may not stick.
-Curses with an 'always there' flavor are being looked at.
-Curses will probably continue to be thematically linked to Mysteries. There may be choices, but them being linked was a well liked feature.
-The Mystery list is not finalized.


-They weren't sure how to do the Swashbuckler, but went with the final Panache version.
-Just about everyone loved the Swashbuckler. They picked 5 stars more than any other option, something unique among PF2 Classes. It was way more popular than the other three.
-There were a variety of tweaks suggested, and they'll be doing those even given the high ratings, and will be expanding the number of Feats.
-They will continue to have Good Reflex and Will.
-They will likely receive more Retorts.
-Feats giving new ways to gain Panache are very possible.


-Witch got the most discussion, a lot about the which Spell Lists they should have. Various options on that are being considered.
-Everyone thought Witch was a mechanically effective full caster, just maybe not the effective full caster they wanted.
-Most people think Hexes should be cantrips. So that seems pretty likely, though they're concerned about complexity. They can't have them actually compete directly with spell slots for various reasons.
-Familiars will receive more abilities in the APG.
-Lessons 'building your own Patron' was divisive and they're looking to tie things together more.
-Familiars dying is widely considered too bad, even though it's more lenient than in PF1. Therefore they will make it less bad.


-Bestiary options tend to lean into Ancestry options more than PCs can.
-Catfolk will receive the Bestiary Catfolk's 'Cat's Luck' (presumably as an Ancestry Feat) or giving it to the whole party at a higher level. Ron Lundeen wrote a good Catfolk entry in general.
-Ratfolk will get a better swarming ability than the Bestiary version and can invest a Feat into Cheek Pouches.
-Changelings, Aasimar, Tieflings, Duskwalkers, and Dhampirs are 'Versatile Heritages' available to any Ancestry. I think the terminology is the only new info there. Half Elves and Half Orcs aren't Versatile for setting rather than mechanical reasons.
-Kobolds were done by John Compton, and have options to grovel and cringe. There is no Medium sized option for them.
-Most of these are Uncommon, with a discussion about the fact that GMs should allow them when appropriate.
-James Case did the Tengu stuff which is very heavy on the mythology of the Tengu. they can look like a human with a big nose.


-Investigators will not get in-Class Feats for Animal Companions, but there is an Animal Companion enabling Archetype in the APG.
-A discussion of the APG product solicitation (including it noting Cavalier and Vigilante as Archetypes) is mentioned.
-Cavalier will be thematically similar to the playtest archetype. Vigilante will provide you with a secret identity stuff, and thus you can just add it on any Class.
-Cavalier and Vigilante are the only Classes being converted to Archetypes in this book. They will be careful doing this going forward.
-Many new generic Archetypes, a lot which you will recognize as either a Prestige Class or something basic (Eldritch Archer, Pirate, Archaeologist, and Assassin get mentioned...not sure if all those are in for sure).
-Familiar Master makes you good with Familiars and gives you one if you don't have one.
-Archer is an example Archetype that makes you good with bows. Other combat styles are also available. At least one gets you armor.
-There is a Dandy Archetype. It has a lot of Skill Feats and is apparently neat.
-The Diva Archetype is mentioned.

Corebook Classes:

-Alchemist poison options.
-There will be three Evil Champion Causes. No Neutral Champion Causes as of yet, as they haven't gotten any compelling pitches. There will also be plenty of options for Good Champions as well.
-Zen Archer is a Feat chain, which makes it pretty flexible. There's another Monk option but Logan took a drink rather than discuss it (probably Drunken Master).
-Mastermind Racket (probably a Racket, anyway) for Rogue will probably poach some Investigator stuff.
-Focus Spell using Ranger is available.
-Shadow, Psychopomp, Nymph, and Genie Bloodlines will be available for the Sorcerer.


-Mark describes his playtest game. It sounds fun and like the Life Oracle was quite powerful as a healer at level 10-12.
-Sword Canes will be like other swords but more concealable.
-Rituals include Reincarnate, Simulacrum, Create Demiplane, a location bound Unseen Servant, and a bunch of other new things.
-Necromancy spells will be expanded in this book. Many spells will be thematic to Oracle or Witch (though not exclusive to them).
-Some example spells include Vomit Swarm, Animate Rope, Aqueous Orb, Summons for Lawful and Chaotic, a 'summon' spell for in-combat Animate Dead (found in Necromancy).
-More Animal Companion and Familiar stuff will be in the book. New Animal Companions definitely included.
-New gear including the Sword Cane, along with new alchemical items and magic items. Magic items are not finalized.
-Cool Wands and Potions that do stuff other than just the basics will be in the book.
-Rare and Unique Backgrounds will be in this book. Artifacts and Relics (which scale with the PC) will be in the GMG instead.
-New Backgrounds include basic stuff like Bandit and Servant, but also stuff like Rootworker, Bookkeeper, and Outrider.
-'Structure Items' to create structures exist.
-There will be no support for summoning huge numbers of individual minions.

Liberty's Edge

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People have mentioned this previously in the Swashbuckler threads, but I haven't seen it in the actual Investigator board so I thought I'd mention it here.

Having Investigators enter a 'state of Inspiration' like Swashbucklers do with Panache, and with basically the same mechanics, with Study Suspect (or some other Perception check) being only one of several ways to enter it (presumably, Recall Knowledge checks would be the other default, with Methodologies possibly offering additional options), and having Studied Strike work like Panache's default damage bonus and finishers do (including greater damage, though perhaps not as much greater, Swashbucklers need something they do better...maybe d4s rather than d6s for the Investigator but with the same progression?) would both help a lot of the Investigator's problems, and be pretty thematically on-point (it even works more like Studied Combat did in PF1 than the current version for those who care). The additional finishers available via Feats to Investigators could inflict debuffs, something that's also been suggested as very on-theme for Investigators (and again, mirrors PF1 pretty solidly).

Is that the only solution? Obviously not (ditching the check for Study Suspect and adding better effects to it, possibly including a default debuff, is also an obvious possibility I've mentioned before), but it would be very cool, and two Classes using variants on the same system in the same book isn't necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't solve the 'needs more uses for Int' problem on its own (though making it, say, specifically a Society check for the default ability to enter it would, as would the oft cited ), but it would do a whole lot for their combat stuff.

You could also tie some neat non-combat stuff to it if you arranged it properly...

Liberty's Edge

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In the thread on Int not doing enough for Alchemist there's been a lot of discussion about how Wis is better for them than Int due to Study Suspect, and suggestions have been made to make Study Suspect somehow Int-based to compensate.

But, really, why does it require a Skill Check at all? Generally speaking, by my math, with maxed or close to maxed Wisdom, you usually have a 1/4 chance of failure on it vs. the average Will DC of on-level opponents.

But the thing is, again by my math, Investigator damage winds up around equal to Rogue (w/Sneak Attack) damage even when they succeed on that check. Often less, depending on level. And that's on the attack it applies to. A Rogue making a second attack will out DPR them by quite a bit (technically, the Investigator equals that on the rare occasions they crit). So...changing it to always be the next attack and not require a check still leaves them behind the Rogue in DPR (and what their DPR or other combat options should be is a separate issue, I'm just noting this wouldn't change it much).

Vs. on level opposition with average Will Saves these two options almost equal out (due to the odds of crits and failures being around the same, though a crit gains less damage than a failure loses out on)...but it makes Investigators verging on utterly worthless vs. bosses and, unlike spellcasters, leaves them rather unimpressive even against minions (who they'll do maybe as well on as a Rogue will, and even then only assuming they don't need to move).

Studied Combat in PF1 didn't require a check to succeed, and while an Operative's Trick Attack in Starfinder technically does, that's also designed so they'll rapidly start auto-succeeding at it vs. almost all foes. So it's hardly thematically necessary for it to work this way.

And having one in four attacks you make cost two actions to deal 3d6+2 damage at, say, 13th level, is not a very fun experience. More like one in two or three vs. a higher level threat. Yeesh.

Liberty's Edge

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I mean, as near as I can tell, all it does is give you Underworld Lore (which is really bad as the sole thing a Class Feat does). Take The Case, by its wording, should already cover using Thievery to investigate, I would think. I mean, I'd certainly have allowed that if the Underworld Investigator Feat didn't exist.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I've been posting around the forums in what I feel is a fairly positive fashion for the most part since the game came out almost two weeks ago. This is largely due to the fact that I very much like the game and think it's super neat.

But I have noted a few actual, serious, problems. Most of them are pretty minor in the grand scheme, and I think some are typos rather than matters of intent but they are very real. So I'm going to enumerate them here, in hopes that doing so gets them some attention from the folks at Paizo.

I don't know how necessary that is, nor whether it will achieve anything, but it seems like something I should at least put in a good faith effort on. Also, these things have just been bothering me, and collating them like this makes me feel better. :)

So without further ado, here they are:

1. Proficiency Scaling.

This is debatably two related problems, the first (the one I think is an error) is that Sorcerers do not get to Expert with Unarmed (despite some Bloodlines giving Focus Spells entirely based on unarmed attacks) when they do with Simple Weapons, and Warpriests likewise do not get to Expert in Martial Weapons (despite getting Proficiency in them). These seem like errors because they are the only two times when a Class provides a weapon and encourages the character to use it then pulls the rug out from under them by not increasing Proficiency. That's a trap option, and bad game design policy.

Speaking of which, the second issue appears intentional, but remains a huge problem. Probably the biggest one in the game. You can get Proficiency with Armor or Weapons as a General Feat, but can never increase it that way. Now, deciding that General Feats should not allow you to cross class boundaries by getting good with, say, a Greatsword or Full Plate as a Wizard would seem reasonable to me on its own. The problem is that in that case, the Feats shouldn't exist in the first place. By existing, they allow the Wizard to do precisely that with General Feats, and it works fine...right up until 11th or 13th level when it suddenly becomes mechanically terrible. Which, again, makes this a trap option, and bad game design policy, since some new players will use this option, and then experience mechanical inferiority without really understanding why.

Both of these issues are especially glaring because they're so at odds with the otherwise extremely new player friendly and relatively trap free nature of the rest of the rules.

2. Alchemist Bulk.

At the moment, the default Alchemist's gear is 5.6 Bulk (the 4.6 Alchemist's Kit plus the 1 Bulk Formula Book). That's without any actual alchemical items, mind you. That's absurd for an entirely non-Str based class, and appears to be for no particularly good reason thematically (Formula and Spell Books could easily be L Bulk, while the Alchemist's Tools could be 1 Bulk). It's punitive and odd.

Notably, it makes the PFS Alchemist pregen actively not rules legal since while he is listed with 4.7 Bulk, the math on his gear actually adds up to 6.6 Bulk at a minimum. He has Str 10. This leads me to believe this is another typo situation (if the Book were L and his Tools were 1, his Bulk actually would equal out to 4.7), but it's sure one in need of correction.

3. Alignment Traits.

The Alignment Traits have some issues. According to the Traits, you simply cannot cast an Alignment spell or use an Alignment item unless your Alignment already matches it. That removes the possibility of being corrupted by the use of Evil magic and the like, but works, I suppose.

But the Traits don't seem to have been used in a manner which is consistent with that rule. Firstly, Demonic and Angelic Sorcerer Focus Spells have Alignment Tags, meaning many of those Sorcerers are flatly mechanically forbidden from using their own Focus Spells. So that seems like an error of some sort.

Secondly, Celestial Armor is weirdly asymmetric with Holy and the other alignment weapon runes. Celestial Armor imposes penalties if used by non-Good creatures, while Holy only imposes penalties on the actively Evil (ditto Unholy only hitting Good people with a penalty and so on). Now, all of these overrule the standard Trait prohibition on using such a thing at all (as specific overrides general), but doing so in two inconsistent ways is, well, inconsistent. It's also a bit odd that Neutral creatures can, at the moment, carry around one each of Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, and Anarchic weapons, and benefit from all of them whenever they like at no penalty, when there is no other way for a Neutral character to deal Alignment damage. So that's weird and seems kinda unintended.

Aside from those three things, I've also noted various typos (such as the Monk's Ki Powers not specifying they use Wisdom, or the Faerie Dragon's Perception mod being nearly twice what it likely should be), but nothing that actually effects the game's function in any notable way.

Liberty's Edge

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So, with update 1.6, and the promise to fix some of the math issues/challenge calibration and upgrade spell power level, most of my original problems with PF2 seem to be gone. Certainly most of the big ones. However, there is always room for improvement and several issues I have I've also seen others complaining about, so I'm gonna list the stuff that I still find really worrisome or problematic here, in the firm hope that the folks at Paizo notice them here if they haven't elsewhere.

So, here they are:

1. Skill Feats:

Skill Feats are, taken as a whole, just not that great. I love them conceptually and a few are really good, but most are underwhelming.

I particularly think that having more that automatically upgrade with Proficiency ala Catfall would be an excellent idea. A Feat to get two bonus languages is mediocre at best, but one that gives that as a base and then escalating language proficiency as your society upgrades (with perhaps the effects of Legendary Linguist at Legendary) would be much better.

Non spellcasters should probably also have some advantage over spellcasters in terms of Skill Feats. Not as much as the Rogue, and a particularly skill-focused caster like the Bard might approximate it, but on average this should be a thing.

2. Bulk Numbers:

I have no issues with Bulk conceptually, but the actual numbers make basically no sense.

Bulk 8 for an unconscious person but a general rule of 10 lbs per Bulk at most results in the nonsensical fact that a 200 lb weight is at least 20 Bulk...unless you make it dead weight in which case it drops to 8, which is the opposite of how dead weight works.

Or Bulk 2 for a longbow (while a bo staff is only Bulk 1...as is a 10 foot pole). Or a dozen other examples. Really, the way it works just makes no sense, and needs fixing if Bulk is gonna be useful in the least.

Bulk as a measure of difficulty carrying things would be fine if it actually was that, but it isn't, with many things that are clearly easier to carry having higher Bulk than some that are more difficult.

The maximal amount people can carry should also probably be based on twice what encumbers them, not a +5, since that devalues Str (which is already a bit devalued, see #5 below).

3. Identifying Monsters:

There is currently next to no guidance for what skill to use to identify monsters. This is terrible. It makes every GM have to decide on the fly, and every player have to read their GM's mind to pick the right skills for their concept. It's particularly bad in PFS or other settings with varying GMs.

Creature types still exist so this is easy to fix, but it needs fixing rather desperately.

4. Skill Items and Benchmarks:

To some degree this is part of the math problem that they've said they're aware of and will fix, but only to some degree.

Right now, magical skill items utterly dominate the game at high levels and you need them for any skill you want to be good at. Decreasing DCs alone doesn't really change that, and so either the addition of generic mundane skill items ala PF1's 'masterwork tool' or the reduction of Skill Item bonuses are necessary.

Also, we need more Skill Benchmarks with the listed difficulty of various tasks so that GMs can properly judge how difficult doing X is. The current table is rather woefully inadequate. This should likely be accompanied by even more explicit directions regarding the fact that the DCs table is based on the level of the task, not the level of those attempting it. Because that needs to be stated even more clearly than it already is.

5. Ability Inequalities:

Some Ability scores are flatly better than others (Dex, Con, and Wis at the moment, with Cha maybe fourth depending on how Resonance/Focus turns out). This is an issue and steps should be taken to improve Int and Str.

I'm a little at a loss on improving Intelligence, I admit, with the mediocre best I can come up with being having it give a bonus language per +1 Mod. With languages rarer that would be better in PF2 than it was in PF1. That particular one has issues, but something should certainly be done.

Strength I have a much better idea for. The Armor Check Penalty of most armors should be increased. I'd suggest it go up by 1 on Medium Armor and 2 on Heavy, with Light staying as-is, and then everyone gets to subtract Str from all Armor Check Penalties. I didn't come up with this one, but it's a great solution.

6. Ranged Weapons:

Ranged Weapons seem...pretty bad this edition. Having to raise a separate stat for bonus damage and only getting d8 damage dice at most (unless you have to spend half your actions reloading, in which case you can get to d10) are both already big limitations, but probably reasonable given the advantages of ranged combat.

But that's not actually how PF2's ranged combat works. You only add 1/2 Str to damage (so...+1 or +2 to the +4 to +7 a melee person gets), and are stuck with d6 weapon dice unless you spend half your time reloading or go Fighter (or Fighter Multiclass), because Volley on Longbows is horribly restrictive to most actual game scenarios.

Making Propulsive add full Str and decreasing the Volley penalty to only within 20 feet are both pretty casually easy to do, and would fix this problem to a large degree...but they do sorta need doing. Or something does, anyway.

7. Cantrips:

Particularly the damaging ones. They're just...not great. I'd strongly argue they should get 1dX + Stat damage at 1st level (made up for by costing 2 Actions), and then increase a die when they get +Stat by the current rules. That brings them much closer to on par with weapons.

Range on damaging cantrips is also really low and weirdly restrictive. Telekinetic Projectile throws objects at full force out to 30 feet, but then stops abruptly (what happens to the momentum?). They should probably work like other ranged weapons in this regard, with range increment penalties.

8. Shapeshifting Spells:

Shapeshifting spells only last one minute, which is pretty terrible for anything but combat. Druids can make it an hour, but honestly, that's still not long enough for utility (as opposed to combat) uses. This can be fixed in several ways, such as making non-combat shapeshifting spells or allowing Heighten on lower level shapeshifting spells to vastly extend duration. Pest Form in the recent update is an excellent proof of concept for this idea, but it needs to go quite a bit further to be good enough.

The stats of several forms also have abiding issues (the AC of Dragon Form is abominable, making it verge on unusable, for example), and many levels you only have one or two, often deeply counter-thematic, choices. Not everyone who wants a 7th level shapeshifting spell for combat should have to be a dinosaur. I mean, I like dinosaurs as much as the next guy...but everyone? And then all abandoning dinosaur forms at higher levels?

It's also quite unclear whether the bonus dice from Handwraps of Mighty Fists apply to the damage of animal forms, which is pretty relevant, and would be nice to clear up.

9. Heritages:

Again, no problem conceptually, but the specific ones could use quite a bit of work. Dwarves in particular are getting the short end of the stick by having such low movement (lower than anyone else) and not getting Unburdened for free any more. Darkvision is also given out a bit too freely, IMO, resulting in repetitive and overly similar Heritages.

Having more than one Heritage would also be reasonable, but doesn't seem entirely necessary.

The names of many Heritages are also terrible and in desperate need of changing.

10. Class Issues:

I actually don't have many of these, but they're important.

Paladins are looking better, but Retributive Strike for the LG still almost requires a Reach weapon, which is unfortunate. Something probably needs to be done about that.

Most importantly, Ranger is still pretty weak as compared to things like Fighter or Barbarian. Losing Double Strike for Twin Takedown was a straight power down in terms of direct combat (at least pre-17th level), and nothing has really made up for it.

Sorcerer is also...uneven. Some Spell Lists are better than others taken in a vacuum, and the Sorcerer takes them in a vacuum (more or less), meaning all Sorcerers should go Arcane to be optimal, which is a tad unfortunate.

11. Quicksand:

This is my single most petty complaint, because it's about a very specific and minor thing. It is very specifically about the Quicksand Hazard, which is terrible because if the victim fails to beat it on initiative they suddenly need to succeed in four rolls out of 6 in two rounds to get out. That can take a while, especially if their odds are, say, 50% or less. And the game just grinds to a mind-numbing slog as you try and make the same roll again and again.

And that's entirely aside from other people not being able to pull them out in any mechanical way.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I like a lot of things about PF2. The math is much cleaner, character creation is a breeze, and I enjoy a lot of the rebalancing between casters and martials (though I think martials still need more skills and other non-combat options). I also have many minor issues (content limitations, Ancestries being unequal, the whole way Signature Skills work), that I suspect will go away and are easily fixable with House Rules even if they don't.

But the more I think about it and run my playtest game, the more I come to realize what my core issue is with this game:

The game assumes absolutely optimal PCs have something around a 50% chance of succeeding at equal level challenges. And that's terrible.

It's terrible because it makes absolutely optimized characters feel adequate and other characters feel inadequate. That's not fun for people who optimize (who do so to feel impressive, rather than adequate), and not fun for those who don't optimize (since nobody likes feeling incompetent and inadequate).

With monsters, even knowing the math is screwed up, this takes the form of most monsters having to-hit on par with an absolutely optimal Fighter, and having several different Skills at the highest level a PC can possibly get even with items and a maxed stat...but it's true in other areas of the game as well. And it's an issue.

The ideal solution would be to pick a level of optimization that is relatively reasonable but not 'as high as possible' and set DCs and other things to make that the level that gets 50% success. A simple example would be assuming a starting 16 stat (rather than 18), a Skill +1 behind the maximum, and a maxed Item (assuming items are made more available). That makes a fully optimized character have a +2 over the assumed numbers, which is very good in this system, but not brokenly so.

Liberty's Edge

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So, going through and getting all the individual stuff a character needs can be logistically difficult and bog down characteer creation. Kits neatly avoid this, but none exist for the playtest. So I made one. Here it is:

Adventurer's Kit (10 SP, 1 Bulk):

This kit contains a dagger, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, two sets ordinary clothing, flint and steel, mug, 6 days rations, 5 sacks, 3 sheaths for weapons, and a waterskin.

You may obviously add to or remove things from this kit at will, and should buy rope and/or a climbing kit separately is you want them, and should pick up a light source if you want one as well (neither are universal needs).

Liberty's Edge

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So, I'm trying to do a series of threads discussing some issues I've found with the game as a whole. This is the one for issues with magic items specifically. So here are some problems:

#1: Skill Items seem absolutely essential to have for a variety of skills, but are currently all Invested, making being a skill-based character prohibitively expensive in terms of Resonance (and quite possibly gold as well). In a related note, +5 skill items for some skills do not seem to exist, nor do items for Lore skills just in general (well, there's a +5 one, but not lower options).

#2: The Bracers of Armor and Handwraps of Mighty Fists are both Invested, while neither armor nor weapons are the same. This harshly penalizes Monks in general in a very non-fun way (they just get -2 Resonance compared to other people), and serves no useful mechanical purpose I can fathom.

Other issues will be added to this thread as I find them.

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So, I actually ran the game earlier this evening. Doomsday Dawn, Chapter 1, specifically.

The PCs were a Goblin Renegade Rogue, an Elf Pathfinder Hopeful Ranger (going TWF with a Trident and Light Hammer), a Gnome Budding Osirionologist Barbarian, a Halfling Family Friend Cleric of Abadar, and a Human Mind Quake Survivor Sorcerer (Demonic Bloodline), the last of whom will not be joining the group for further playtest sessions (he was visiting from out of town for this one). All had 18 in their primary stat except the Gnome (who had a 16) and all were decently optimized IMO (though they favored Int and skills over Con and HP...the HP average was a tad low, excepting the Barbarian).

The adventure went fine for the most part, with the PCs pretty readily waltzing through most of the encounters with minimal resource expenditures (though they were down to a single Channel Energy usage and no potions they had identified in the final battle).

The final battle was rough, with Drakus having both high to-hit, Sneak Attack, and AoO being pretty ridiculous agains the group, but they did finally manage to win out (though three of five were unconscious at the time, and another one had been at one point).

From an adventure writing perspective, a little more guidance on what a PC goblin knew would've been good. I fudged it on a few things, but they never even went into the centipede chamber, since I could see no reason he wouldn't know about that and they had no reason to enter.

The game plays smoothly for the most part, but desperately needs an organizational change in the form of the skills and the chart that determines Skill DCs not being in entirely different parts of the book.

There were also two issues that leaped out at me in terms of actually playing the game (or creating characters), which were not merely organizational:

#1: PCs felt almost forced to take a Heritage Feat at 1st level, since it was their only chance to do so. This sometimes overrode their actual preferences.

#2: What Skill is it to know what an Ooze is and what's up with it? Or an Undead creature? Or anything really. I winged this based on PF1, but a new player would have no idea and find different GMs with wildly varying definitions as well.

Additional reports to follow in this thread on a weekly basis as I run the Playtest Adventure (and possibly other things).

Liberty's Edge

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I went into this a little in my general reaction thread, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed to deserve its own thread. So here we go.

Monsters, almost universally, are way better at skills than PCs of equivalent level. This is actually a huge problem since they're presumably intended to be appropriate challenges for their level outside of combat as well, and because several skills have in-combat uses (most notably Athletics).

Just to give a series of random examples:

At 1st level, a PC can be expected to have an absolute maximum of +5 on a skill, and likely has a -1 on several things due to being Untrained in many Skills. The Level 1 Boggard Scout has +6 Athletics, and a minimum of +0 on all Skill Checks (+1 on all that aren't Int-based).

At 7th level, the maximum any PC can have in any skill is right about +15, and that only with an Item. Most of their good skills are probably more like +10 or +11, and their minimum skills are +5 or +6. The Greater Barghest, at the same level, has one skill at +15, another at +14, and two more at +13. I'm pretty sure that isn't even possible for a PC of that level, and the Barghest's untrained skills range from +9 to +12. It literally has a +9 on its lowest Skill Check.

At 13th level, a PC can easily have a +23 or so in their high skill using an item (13 level +5 Stat +2 Proficiency +3 Item), but Master Skills sans Item and maybe in a non-maxed stat will be between +18 and +20. Untrained Skills may be as low as +11, but are much more likely to be in the vicinity of +12 or +13. At this level, the Ice Devil has a +28 in one skill, +26s in three more, and +23 to +24 in most of the rest of the skills in the game. The lowest skill they possess is a +20, with everything else higher.

And so on and so forth. If one of these were a weird outlier, I'd think 'Okay, that's a particularly skilled individual creature' and move on, but that's not what's going on. I almost literally picked each of those monsters out of a hat for their level. Monsters almost universally have skill bonuses that PCs cannot reasonably compete with. And that's a huge problem.

You may ask 'What about Skill Feats?' and you have something of a point...if any Skill Feat allowed one to compete with a bonus that's just flatly higher, but they frankly don't do that very well.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I've been pretty involved in a lot of discussion leading up to this playtest, and will be actively participating throughout it. I sincerely believe the folks at Paizo are listening to feedback and that many of the problems with the game both can and will be fixed by the time the playtest is over.

That said, I'm actually pretty unhappy with quite a few things in the playtest rulebook. To be honest, I'm have a strong reaction of 'This is notably worse than PF1' about several of them. I'll endeavor to talk about the things I feel each area did right, but I suspect my issues will eat up a lot of at least the first several subjects.

Sadly, I don't think this is gonna be a very positive thread, at least for a while. I will follow with my in depth reactions/analysis on various things. Mostly the ones I have issues with (if I don't feel the need to complain about something, I probably liked it).

Liberty's Edge

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I'm legitimately curious if anyone's found any skills I haven't. These are the ones I've picked up in listening to various demo games and scanning the blogs, and where I got them from:

Acrobatics (Proficiency Blog)
Athletics (Rogue Blog)
Crafting (Rogue Blog)
Deception (Rogue Blog)
Diplomacy (A La Mode Blog)
Intimidation (A La Mode Blog)
Lore - Various (Mentioned various places)
Medicine (Glass Cannon Podcast)
Nature (A La Mode Blog)
Occultism (Mentioned in some demo game, I think)
Performance (A La Mode Blog)
Religion (Glass Cannon Podcast)
Society (Rogue Blog)
Stealth (Proficiency Blog)
Survival (Proficiency Blog)
Thievery (Proficiency Blog)

Anyone have anything else? I'm betting there's an Insight/Sense Motive skill but I have no proof and no actual idea what other skills there might be aside from these and that one. Well, and probably Profession (since they kept Crafting and Perform). I mean, I guess there could be Heal, too, though Nature may have subsumed that skill (which would make some sense).

EDIT: Edited in Medicine.

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I can already see a scene with my PC's trying to chase a squad of Nimble Elves through wooded terrain. With such a large gap in movement capability, it really will feel like the Elves are ghosts. Hitting, running, and fading back through terrain while the Humans and Dwarves flail through the brush. I look forward to seeing how they deal with the situation.

Liberty's Edge

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Just a general FYI, the FAQs in question can be found here.

It's now explicit that skill bonuses from Class apply, and the DCs cap at about 50 for the most difficult stuff, which is very doable.

Liberty's Edge

So, I use House rules quite a bit (somewhat obsolete set found here). A while back, while coming up with a Fighter fix (which might be getting some changes soon due to enhanced Weapon and Armor Training, for the record), I came up with an interesting mechanic for giving fighters added mobility:

Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Fighter gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. He may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.

I like this, and think it makes Fighters much more mobile in a way that other classes don't really duplicate. I later expanded it to Brawlers and Swashbucklers (the hybrid Classes that get things from Fighter and don't get spells).

I've been thinking, and I want to add a similarly useful, but mechanically distinct option to Rogues and Slayers. With that and use of the Unchained Monk, every non spellcasting class will have one, which seems like a good design to me. Barbarians, for the record, have several movement options already and seem fine to me.

Space-wise, I'm slotting it in at 7th level, since Rogue and Slayer can both manage that (I considered making it 8th for the Slayer...I still might).

My issue is that I'm a little stuck on what ability should be. It should enable full attacks in some way, I think, without increasing base movement necessarily...Fighters being quicker runners than Rogues on open ground actually makes sense to me.

So...I'm looking for a unique movement option for Rogues with those criteria. Anyone have any suggestions?

Liberty's Edge

So, I'm currently running a CotCT game, where the players have just rescued the hero Blackjack. So...this Class is probably getting some playtesting at least to the point of rebuilding that character as this class. But first, some initial observations:

Firstly, this is a really interesting idea. I like the base Class chassis for the most part, and definitely like the modular nature of the Specializations. So, let's look at those two things separately:

Base Class:

As someone else noted, it's seriously weird and off that Intimidate isn't a baseline Class Skill for a Vigilante.

Dual Identity is interesting and fun. I like it. That said...the jump between 5 minutes and one full round at 13th level is seriously weird. It seems tailor-made to have an intermediate '1 minute' level at 7th.

The last sentence of Dual Identity is also unclear, I'm pretty sure it's intended to mean you can't Scry for Blackjack and find his secret identity...but by a strict reading, if you know his secret identity socially and have met Blackjack and you Scry for either one, you can find the other if they're out and about. That's pretty clearly wrong.

Renown is a real problem in making Blackjack. He's explicitly a 9th-10th level character known throughout Korvosa (a city of 16k people or so). The Renown rules also make it impossible to be 'The Hero of Absalom!' even at 20th level...which seems off. Frankly, it seems like the maximum community size should be higher and there should maybe be more than three categories.

Loyal Aid is weird, and I think perhaps counter to the theme, which is clearly to be just about any costumed adventurer. Some very clearly don't have that particular advantage. Beyond the Gather Information use, their abilities are also ill-defined. Heck, there's not even a duration listed.


I'll begin by saying that I like how Avenger works for the most part, and like Zealot and Warlock a lot.

But Stalker has this problem where, the vast majority of the time, they're like a Rogue, only slightly worse. And not an Unchained Rogue, the corebook version. I mean, they have better skills (though less of them) and a better Will Save...but lack Evasion, and have much worse Sneak Attack. Frankly, they're on par with Slayers in most ways (even socially...a Slayer can use Studied Target to be real good at social stuff) except with (by 20th level) -10 to hit, -10 HP, and -5 damage. Their Talents aren't nearly good enough to make up for that disparity.

They need to poach some form of accuracy enhancer (possibly the Unchained Rogue's Disabling Strike, or the aforementioned Studied Target) or they're gonna be really underpowered compared to, well, most things.

Avenger suffers a little of the same problem, with Full BAB and Fighter Feats not really making up for Studied Target and Sneak Attack both when comparing them to the Slayer. Their Talents go further to making up for it, but they still need an accuracy enhancer. It's also a bit sad that Avenger lacks Acrobatics as a Class Skill given that a lot of characters who should be built as one of them have it.

Warlock and Zealot do a lot better, but their spells known are a bit more limited than any existing casters, meaning they could stand a bi of a power-up...so I'd actually advise a general accuracy booster for Vigilantes in general. Something on par with Studied Target. After all, that got given to Inquisitors in an Archetype...why not these guys?

So...short version is: Looking over the Specializations, I think the base class needs an accuracy booster of some sort.

Liberty's Edge

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So... my House Rules include a Fighter Fix, which I feel is fun and useful, while maintaining archetype compatability. In many ways it's more like errata than a new Class, so I'm not gonna do a whole document. Here it is:

The Fighter Class:

The Fighter receives 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level. They receive Knowledge (Local), Perception, and Sense Motive as additional class skills as well as a Good Will Save. They do not possess the Bravery Class Feature, receiving the following features in exchange:

Spell Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, a Fighter receives a +2 bonus on all saves vs. spells or spell-like abilities.
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter is now immune to magical fear, and receives a +4 morale bonus to saves against non-magical fear.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 14th level, a Fighter gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, and this feature is identical to the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name.
Combat Mastery (Ex): At 18th level, a Fighter is never considered an unaware combatant, can always act in the surprise round, and is never considered flat-footed (though he may still lose his Dex bonus to Armor Class). Additionally, he is considered to always roll a 20 on initiative checks.

Archetypes that replace Bravery, replace the Spell Defense Class Feature instead. If they replace it with a scaling bonus, instead of scaling they simply gain it at the full +5 bonus (or whatever other maximum the ability hits) at 2nd level. The Viking’s ‘Fearsome’ ability is an exception, only receiving its normal progression.

The Unbreakable Fighter simply doesn’t replace Spell Defenses, and gains Improved Resilience on Fortitude Saves at 13th, as Resilience stacks with Stalwart.

Lore Wardens replace all instances of Armor Training with their listed Maneuver Mastery progression. They replace Spell Defense with Expertise, Fearless with Know Thy Enemy (which they receive at 6th level), Resilience with Hair’s Breadth (which they receive at 10th), and Indomitable Will with Swift Lore.

The Two-Weapon Warrior does not receive Doublestrike, however his Twin Blades ability applies even when making a standard action attack with two weapons (and replaces both Weapon Training 1 and 2). Defensive Flurry still only applies on Full Attacks, though.

Other Relevant House Rules:

Two Weapon Fighting: Unlike other multiple attack effects, this Feat may be used even when attacking as a Standard Action, though Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting still require the full attack action.

Liberty's Edge

83 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 4 people marked this as a favorite.

We all know that Sneak Attack is negated by concealment, we all know that complete blindness negates all ability to inflict precision damage. Those are both made very clear in the core rulebook.

However, what's a good deal less clear, is whether the loss of precision damage from any concealment applies to other sources of precision damage, such as the Precise Strike Feat, or the Duelist's Precise Strike ability (Yay for confusing names?). They lack any reference to concealment beyond the one general rule from the darkness section (which explicitly only refers to complete blindness)...and yet, because the wording is a bit unclear regarding how they don't work on things immune to Sneak Attack an argument can be made that they shouldn't work on anything with concealment. I think that argument's wrong, but the rules are legitimately unclear enough that it's a problem.

Now, this was a relatively niche problem, until recently. But two of the Classes in the upcoming ACG rely somewhat on Precision Damage which lacks clarity in this area (the Swashbuckler heavily, and the Investigator a bit via Studied Combat...interestingly, Studied Strike does appear to have the concealment language from Sneak Attack, unlike Studied Combat or the other examples I've used. See here for the text I'm working from there)...and that makes that unclear wording a pretty big problem all of a sudden.

In short, an answer to this question is a big honkin' deal for anyone interested in Swashbucklers, and it's useful for anyone interested in Investigators to know as well. Please FAQ this post so we can hopefully get an answer.

A discussion of which way it is, while inevitable, isn't really the point of this thread. I'd like an official response.

Liberty's Edge

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Kadria is a province of the great Elven Empire (officially known as 'The Land of Andramiel'), a great Empire cast in the mold of Imperial Rome, though with a much greater racial component in who is in charge. The empire is Lawful Neutral, shading into Evil occasionally due primarily to racism. Kadria was conquered by the empire approximately 200 years ago, but has never really assimilated, especially in the rough terrain and forests in the North of the country.

Culturally, it is a mix of feuding little tribes and clans of various sorts, and ruled by a number of warlords as much as by the official Elven government, and the people of the country (which it remains culturally if not legally) despise their foreign Overlords and kill them when they can. It's been described to my players as a combination of Afghanistan and ancient Ireland, in terms of feuding groups and hatred of foreign conquerors. The Elves rule, especially in the South, but their soldiers travel en masse in the North, or they vanish from the face of the earth...but the same is true of Kadrians traveling through the wrong tribe's territory as well. Their culture as whole is Chaotic Neutral.

Racially, the common people of Kadria are a mix of Humans, Orcs, and Half Orcs, with humans slightly most common. Orcs originate from a large island (approximately as large as Kadria) off the coast and immigrated to Kadria millenia ago and fought with, intermarried, and eventually became partially homogenized with the humans who lived there already. There is little racism between the two races in Kadria, with conflicts breaking down along tribal lines, rather than racial ones. Orcs make up the majority of the population in the West, while Humans do in the East, but there's a lot of overlap in central Kadria.

This setting was created as the basis for a rebellion campaign against the Elven Empire, and details on surrounding areas, several pantheons of gods, and a variety of other setting details have been worked out. I will gradually be posting these details in logical chunks, probably starting with the Orcish Gods.

Requests for particular material will be taken into account and probably granted, and discussion and suggestions are welcome.

Liberty's Edge

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A lot of my personal complaints with Summoners come down to the idea that they aren't really a 6 level caster, they're a 9th level caster faking being a 6 level caster, the Eidolon is also a problem, but far less of one, IMO. So, how about we make Summoners a 9 level caster?

Hit Die: D6

BAB: Slow Progression

Skills and Proficiencies: Remain the same

Eidolon: An Eidolon’s maximum attack number does include attacks with weapons, though all attacks with a particular weapon count as only one.

The Pounce evolution is available to all Eidolons, regardless of base form.

Other non spell-casting Class Features: Remain the same


Spells Per Day:

Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st: 1 - - - - - - - -
2nd: 2 - - - - - - - -
3rd: 3 - - - - - - - -
4th: 3 1 - - - - - - -
5th: 3 2 - - - - - - -
6th: 4 2 1 - - - - - -
7th: 4 3 2 - - - - - -
8th: 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
9th: 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
10th: 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
11th: 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
12th: 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
13th: 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
14th: 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
15th: 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
16th: 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
17th: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 -
18th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
19th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
20th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2

Or use Wizard progression if you're lazy.

Spells Known:

Level 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st: 3 2 - - - - - - - -
2nd: 3 2 - - - - - - - -
3rd: 3 3 - - - - - - - -
4th: 4 3 1 - - - - - - -
5th: 4 3 2 - - - - - - -
6th: 4 4 2 1 - - - - - -
7th: 4 4 3 2 - - - - - -
8th: 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
9th: 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
10th: 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
11th: 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
12th: 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
13th: 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
14th: 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
15th: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
16th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
17th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 -
18th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
19th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
20th: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2

Yes that's basically the same table, with 1s replaced with 2s. I'm cool with that.

Spell List:

1st—alarm, ant haul, compel hostility, corrosive touch, daze monster, endure elements, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, icicle dagger, identify, jump, jury rig, life conduit, mage armor, magic fang, magic mouth, mount, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, ray of sickening, reduce person, rejuvenate eidolon (lesser), shield, summon minor monster, summon monster I, unfetter, unseen servant, ventriloquism,

2nd—ablative barrier, alter self, ant haul (communal), barkskin, bear's endurance, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, create pit, cushioning bands, detect thoughts, eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, glide, glitterdust, invisibility, levitate, misdirection, mount (communal), owl's wisdom, protection from arrows, protection from chaos/evil/good/law (communal), resist energy, restore eidolon (lesser), see invisibility, spider climb, summon monster II, summon swarm, twisted space, warding weapon, web shelter, wind wall,

3rd-aqueous orb, agonize, control summoned creature, devolution, dispel magic, displacement, evolution surge (lesser), fly, haste, heroism, mad monkeys, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, magic fang (greater), marionette possession, nondetection, pellet blast, phantom steed, protection from arrows (communal), protection from energy, rage, rain of frogs, rejuvenate eidolon, resist energy (communal), slow, summon eidolon, seek thoughts, spider climb (communal), spiked pit, summon monster III, tongues, water breathing

4th—acid pit*, black tentacles, charm monster, daze (mass), dimension door, dimensional anchor, dismissal, enlarge person (mass), evolution surge*, fire shield, invisibility (greater), locate creature, minor creation, obsidian flow, phantom chariot, phantom steed (communal), protection from energy (communal), reduce person (mass), restore eidolon, summon monster IV, tongues (communal), vitriolic mist, wall of fire, wall of ice,

5th—baleful polymorph, contact other plane, energy siege shot, evolution surge (greater), hold monster, hostile juxtaposition, hungry pit, insect plague, life conduit (improved), mage's faithful hound, magic jar, major creation, overland flight, planar adaptation, planar binding (lesser), purified calling, rejuvenate eidolon (greater), sending, stoneskin, summon monster V, summoner conduit, teleport, transmogrify, wall of stone, wreath of blades,

6th—banishment, bear's endurance (mass), bull's strength (mass), cat's grace (mass), conjure black pudding, dispel magic (greater), eagle aerie, eagle's splendor (mass), fox's cunning (mass), heroism (greater), ice crystal teleport, invisibility (mass), owl's wisdom (mass), planar binding, plane shift, stoneskin (communal), summon monster VI, tar pool, true seeing, wall of iron,

7th-create demiplane (lesser), creeping doom, energy siege shot (greater), ethereal jaunt, hostile juxtaposition (greater), life conduit (greater), planar adaptation (mass), repulsion, sequester, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster VII, teleport (greater), walk through space,

8th-antipathy, binding, create demiplane, dimensional lock, discern location, incendiary cloud, maze, planar binding (greater), sympathy, summon monster VIII,

9th—charm monster (mass), create demiplane (greater), dominate monster, gate, protection from spells, summon monster IX, teleportation circle,

So, I gave them Create Demiplane (Greater) and Gate at 9th (both are too appropriate not to give them), and reassigned a bunch of stuff. This is purely core rules stuff, for stuff outside that, use the level of any other caster that gets it. For Summoner only spells outside core...make something up. Shouldn't come up often.

Eidolons remain unchanged for the most part, though I have a few additional ideas for the Synthesist...

Does this make Summoners less powerful? No, it ups their Save DCs a bit and adds a couple of spells per day, but drops their combat prowess and durability significantly. I'd say those two even out. It does make lower level ones less powerful (Haste at 6th level, not 4th, Black Tentacles at 8th, not 7th)...and probably makes 18th level or higher ones a bit more powerful with the additional available spells I threw in. But I'd say it doesn't change the class's balance of power a whole lot (though it does make them squishier, a change of which I approve).

What it does is make Summoners actually function like other classes do and removes the problems with them getting spells at lower levels (Wand of Teleport, anyone?) So it fixes that issue.

So...what do people think, good idea, bad idea, completely useless idea, or what?

Liberty's Edge

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As was brought up in another threadthat shall remain nameless, but seems a potentially legitimate complaint, there seem to be significantly more female love interests available in the APs than male ones. If true, this is obviously a problem...so is it true?

I haven't read all the APs...I'm holding out hope for playing some of them, but of the ones I have read (CotCT, SD, LoF, Serpent's Skull, and Wrath of the Righteous) I do seem to recall less potential male romantic options than female ones...though as a straight guy, I am perhaps only remembering those relevant to my interests.

So, let's see if this is true. Over the next week or two, I'm gonna go through the above listed APs and try and spot at least somewhat fleshed-out characters who might be likely to serve as a PC love interest. I'l then post numbers, with a list of who those people are in spoiler tags. I'd appreciate others doing the same for other APs (or ones I haven't gotten to yet).

Let's see if this is really a problem that needs to be addressed.

Liberty's Edge

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I've seen a lot of posts from various people regarding how underpowered NPCs are for their CR. I, personally, think that's a load of crap. At least for PC class NPCs, and even for NPC class ones at low levels.

I've stated this a few times, but nobody's ever responded in any meaningful fashion. Their contempt seems unassailable, and I feel like proving a point. Also, I'm a little bored.

So, I'm putting a challenge out here:

Ask for an NPC of a particular class and level, and I'll build a CR appropriate version of it. You can even specify things (like 'finesse Fighter' or 'Pirate Captain') as long as they aren't completely unreasonable.

Well as long as it's not over 8th level as NPC classes, and doesn't have completely horrible multiclassing on it, anyway (and I'm talking really horrible here, not just less than ideal). I probably won't be working out full spellbooks or anything for these, but at least a fair selection of their current spells will be done.

Liberty's Edge

So, I generally like the idea that PCs in Pathfinder need to wear armor, but that said, some character concepts work a lot better unarmored...and there's not really any help for them. Or not any that works well enough anyway.

So, I have come up with a solution for purposes of my games. It costs a Feat, but that seems a reasonable price to me to not have to, y'know, buy armor...and it's not a dead Feat, either. Here it is:

Unarmored Dodge:
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Light Armor Proficiency,
Effect: You have found through experience, that you seem to do a lot better at dodging while not wearing armor. As long as you are neither wearing armor, nor using any item or spell that grants an Armor Bonus to AC, you receive a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC. For every five levels you possess, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
Special: This Feat may be used instead of Dodge as a prerequisite for any and all Feats, abilities, and Prestige Classes that require Dodge, but anyone who possesses it may never acquire the Dodge Feat.

The Light Armor Proficiency is basically a metagame requirement, making this Feat more expensive for those in whose hands it would otherwise be unbalancingly good (Monks, Wizards, Kensai Maguses, etc.) It's not really logical, and I acknowledge this.

So, what do people think? Is this enough to make, say, a Savage Barbarian a good idea without making it unbalancing? Or is it too much in the hands of some particular class? Are there any other, better, ideas?

Liberty's Edge

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So, basically, I really do like the idea of a gear light Pathfinder game, but don't like the idea of radically re-working the CR on the assorted monsters. I've thus designed a very basic level based system to compensate PCs for the loss of five of the Big 6. It's un-playtested, but it's so simple that it should pretty much work.

I didn't remove the Ability Enhancer somehow because it's the hardest to get rid of, and because Girdles of Giant Strength and such are actually nicely thematic, IMO. Also, having one required piece of gear isn't a huge deal, at least to me. Also, you can do without one as of 13th level by taking Bull's Strength or the equivalent as your Impossible Trick.

These rules are level based and dead simple, for the most part. They also (quite intentionally) allow for cool and powerful magical weapons and armor...PCs simply don't require those things to be effective.

Obviously, these rules change wealth by level assumptions, the changes to which are listed below.

I'm sure similar things have been mentioned/posted before, but,, well, here's mine:

Enhancements By Level:

All apply to all characters.

1: None.
2: Heroic Defense 1: +1 Deflection Bonus to Armor Class.
3: Equipment Mastery 1: +1 Enhancement Bonus to all weapons, armor and shields.
4: Survivor 1: +1 Enhancement Bonus to all Saves and Natural Armor.
5: Cool Trick: You receive one 0th-level spell from any list, which you can use as an at-will ability.
6: Heroic Defense 2: The Deflection Bonus to Armor Class rises to +2.
7: Equipment Mastery 2: The Enhancement Bonus to all weapons, armor and shields rises to +2.
8: Survivor 2: The Enhancement Bonus to all Saves and Natural Armor rise to +2.
9: Amazing Trick: You receive one 1st-level spell from any list, which you can use as an at-will ability.
10: Heroic Defense 3: The Deflection Bonus to Armor Class rises to +3.
11: Equipment Mastery 3: The Enhancement Bonus to all weapons, armor and shields rises to +3.
12: Survivor 3: The Enhancement Bonus to all Saves and Natural Armor rise to +3.
13:Impossible Trick: You receive one 2nd-level spell from any list, which you can use as an at-will ability.
14: Heroic Defense 4: The Deflection Bonus to Armor Class rises to +4.
15: Equipment Mastery 4: The Enhancement Bonus to all weapons, armor and shields rises to +4.
16: Survivor 4: The Enhancement Bonus to all Saves and Natural Armor rise to +4.
17: Miraculous Trick: You receive one 3rd-level spell from any list, which you can use as an at-will ability.
18: Heroic Defense 5: The Deflection Bonus to Armor Class rises to +5.
19: Equipment Mastery 5: The Enhancement Bonus to all weapons, armor and shields rises to +5.
20: Survivor 5: The Enhancement Bonus to all Saves and Natural Armor rise to +5.


A +1 Enhancement bonus from this ability does not count as magic for overcoming Damage Reduction, but any magic weapon or a +2 or higher bonus will. Higher levels of enhancement bonus replace other things for purposes of piercing DR normally.

Monks do receive the Enhancement Bonus from Equipment Mastery to their AC once, despite not wearing armor (other unarmored characters do not). This is considered part of the Monk’s AC Bonus class feature.

Animal Companions receive all these benefits (except for Spell Tricks) based on their Hit Dice.

All these bonuses apply only to PC classes. NPC classed characters should ignore these, have reduced WBL, and halve their level (rounded up) before determining their CR (though they only subtract 1 from that halved score, not two). So a 4th level Warrior is only CR 1, while an 8th level Aristocrat is CR 3, while a Fighter 4/Aristocrat 2 is CR 4. Every two levels of one of these classes only adds 1 to a monster’s CR. This maintains 1st level Warriors as CR 1/3. Playing high CR monsters with racial HD as PCs will require additional GM adjudication under these rules and should be handled on a case by case basis.

Wealth By Level:

2: 500 GP
3: 1,000 GP
4: 1,500 GP
5: 2,500 GP
6: 4,000 GP
7: 6,000 GP
8: 8,000 GP
9: 11,000 GP
10: 15,000 GP
11: 20,000 GP
12: 27,000 GP
13: 35,000 GP
14: 45,000 GP
15: 60,000 GP
16: 80,000 GP
17: 105,000 GP
18: 135,000 GP
19: 175,000 GP
20: 220,000 GP

Basic Gear Assumptions:

Rods, Staffs, Wands, Scrolls, and Potions are more or less unchanged.

Rings are unchanged with the exception of Rings of Protection, which do not exist.

Wondrous Items are unchanged except for the Amulet of Mighty Fists (which follows the Weapon rules detailed below) and the following, which do not exist: Amulet of Natural Armor, Bracers of Armor, Cloak of Resistance.

Weapons and Armor never have basic enhancement bonuses, only equivalent properties such as Shocking, Defending, or Fortified. The weapon must be Masterwork to have these, but obviously needs no Enhancement bonus.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I'm gearing up to run a Pathfinder game. It's my first time doing that, actually. I've run a lot of games through the years (I'm the normal GM for my group), sometimes even two or three at once, but never Pathfinder. I have played it several times, in three separate campaigns (two still ongoing) and a number of one-shots.

I also House Rule things. Like a lot. So, I have a House Rule list for that game, a few for appropraiateness and many for balance, and I would like to hear peoples' opinions on hem, so here they are:

Character Creation Changes:
Starting Stats: All characters begin with one of the following stat distributions:

16, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10
16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

Racial modifications are then applied as normal. All characters receive two traits and are otherwise created as normal. Points may be reallocated (using he asme 25 point buy that resulted in these) at GM discretion, but may never result in any score over 16 or more than one score below 10 before racial modifications.

Hit Points: Characters receive maximum HP at 1st level, thereafter they receive the following number of hit points per level, based on Hit Dice:

D6: 4
D8: 5
D10: 6
D12: 7

Constitution modifiers, Toughness, and other enhancements to this are applied normally.

Race Changes:

Dwarf: Dwarves may take their -2 ability penalty in Dexterity instead of Charisma if they desire.

Gnome: Gnomes may take their -2 ability penalty in Wisdom instead of Strength if they desire. This is really only recommended for melee focused characters such as Fighters, Barbarians, or Paladins.

Halfling: Like Gnomes, Halflings may take their -2 ability penalty in Wisdom instead of Strength if they desire. Halflings also have a base speed of 30 ft, not 20.

Tiefling: May use any of the alternate stat-mods in Bastards of Erebus and may pick one trait from the table therein to replace their Darkness ability if they wish, or roll twice instead and keep both random results if they prefer. The Fiendish Heritage Feat is both unnecessary and non-existent.

Save Changes:

Will Save: Any character may, at their own discretion, choose whether the Ability Bonus they gain to Will Saves is from Wisdom or Charisma. This may be changed, but only when the character gains a level, and may not be changed at other times.

Class Changes:
Alchemist: Add Glitterdust as a 2nd level Extract and Regenerate as a 6th level Extract. Alchemists are explicitly allowed to learn Craft Wondrous Item using their Alchemist level as their caster level, but not any other Crafting Feats.

Clerics: A cleric’s class skills vary somewhat by their deity, receiving one additional Class Skill and often changing several others. Clerics of a Philosophy (if allowed) or of a non-listed deity may select any one skill appropriate to the deity in question as a class skill. This selection may never include Perception or Use Magic Device.

Erastil: Trade Knowledge (Nobility and Arcana), for Survival and Knowledge (Local and Nature). Those with the Animal Domain gain Handle Animal as a class skill instead of Knowledge (Nature).
Iomedae: Trade Knowledge (Planes) and Appraise, for Knowledge (Engineering), Ride, and Intimidate.
Torag: Trade Knowledge (Arcana) for Knowledge (Dungeoneering and Engineering).
Sarenrae: Trade Appraise for Perform and Intimidate.
Shelyn: Gain Perform.
Desna: Trade Knowledge (Nobility) for Knowledge (Geography and Nature).
Cayden Cailean: Trade Knowledge (Nobility) for Knowledge (Local) and Bluff.
Abadar: Gain Knowledge (Local).
Irori: Gain Acrobatics.
Gozreh: Trade Knowledge (Nobility and Arcana) for Knowledge (Nature), Swim and Survival. Those with the Animal domain gain Handle Animal as a class skill instead of Knowledge (Nature).
Pharasma: Gain Intimidate.
Nethys: Gain Intimidate.
Gorum: Trade Knowledge (Arcana) for Ride and Intimidate.
Calistria: Replace Knowledge (Planes) with Knowledge (Local) and gain Bluff. Those with the Trickery domain gain Intimidate as a class skill instead of Bluff.
Asmodeus: Replace Heal with Bluff and Intimidate. Those with the Trickery Domain gain Knowledge (Local) as a class skill instead of Bluff.
Zon-Kuthon: Trade Appraise for Bluff and Intimidate.
Urgathoa: Trade Appraise for Bluff and Intimidate.
Norgorber: Trade Knowledge (Planes) for Knowledge (Local) and Intimidate.
Lamashtu: Trade Knowledge (Arcana) for Knowledge (Nature) and Survival.
Rovagug: Trade Knowledge (Arcana, Nobility) and Crafts for Climb, Swim, Ride, and Intimidate.

Monk: The Monk’s unarmed damage progression, AC bonus, and movement are changed as follows:
1: 1d4/+0/+0 ft
2-6: 1d6/+1/+10 ft
7-11: 1d8/+2/+20 ft
12-16: 1d10/+3/+30 ft
17-20: 1d12/+4/+40 ft

These numbers are for a Medium creature. Adjust damage normally if their size is either greater or lesser.

However a Monk does receive a damage bonus equal to his Wisdom modifier on unarmed attacks and with all Monk weapons. A Zen Archer monk may do this with bows only when using his ki arrows ability.

The Monk is a full Base Attack Bonus Class (though they keep their d8 hit dice). This makes the Flurry of Blows ability a bit less necessary. Maneuver Training is also thus completely redundant and does not exist.

If the Monk does not otherwise move in a round, the +20 ft movement use of Ki points allows the Monk to move 20 ft + Monk bonus Speed as a Swift Action that provokes Attacks of Opportunity normally. If the Monk does otherwise move, it remains only a +20 ft bonus.

Ranger: There is now a Sling Use combat style. This gives the following options: Ammo Drop, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot. It adds Improved Precise Shot, Sling Mastery, and Juggle Load at 6th and Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run at 10th.

Rogue: The Rogue is primarily unchanged with the exception of Trapfinding, which explicitly allows the Rogue to find and disable spells that are left in place, such as Magic Mouth or Sepia’s Snake Sigil. The DC to find a spell not listed as a trap is 20+Caster Level, and the DC to disable is 25+Caster Level. No XP is inherently received for disarming such spells. Additionally, the Save DC on Master Strike is based on Dexterity, not Intelligence.

General Changes:
Skill Changes:

All characters may trade in up to two class skills for other, different, class skills. This is in addition to the skills provided by Traits. Craft, Perform, and Profession may not be traded in this manner, and Knowledge Skills may only be traded for other Knowledge Skills.

Combat Maneuvers:

General: Size penalties on both CMB and CMD are waived if the individual in question possesses Weapon Finesse.

Steal: This maneuver is how one steals from an opponent in combat who is aware of them. CMB may be replaced with Sleight of Hand if the maneuverer wishes, though it still provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and still receives all usual bonuses from Feats such as Improved Steal.

Mundane Equipment:

Heavy Crossbow: This weapon requires a Standard Action to load if used as a Simple Weapon, but may be used as a Martial Weapon requiring only a Move Action to reload.
Falcata: This weapon is not designed to be used two handed and may not be used in that fashion.

Magic Items:

Amulet of Mighty Fists: In addition to providing a bonus on attacks, an AoMF also provides a bonus to Natural Armor equal to it’s rating, whether that rating is taken up by actual bonuses or effects such as Flaming. So a +1 Shocking, Flaming, Amulet of Mighty Fists also provides a +3 enhancement bonus to Natural Armor.

Feat Changes:
Ammo Drop: This Feat allows reloading a sling, double-sling or sling-staff as a Free Action, but this does provoke attacks of opportunity.
Agile Maneuvers: This Feat does not exist, see Weapon Finesse below. Characters who have it receive Weapon Finesse instead. Characters who have both receive any one additional Feat to replace it.
Crossbow Mastery: As being able to reload any Crossbow as a Free Action is now available with Rapid Reload alone, this Feat also allows the wielder of a crossbow to add a +3 bonus on all damage rolls with a crossbow.
Dervish Dance: This Feat may be purchased at 1st level as long as the character has 1 rank in Perform Dance, but they must buy the second rank at 2nd Level. It is available for any one handed melee weapon, as well as the Aldori Dueling Sword and Elven Curve blade (which obviously need not be wielded one handed). However, the Dex bonus to damage from this Feat is not multiplied by 1.5 on two handed weapons, and the Feat still prohibits shield use. This Feat may not be combined with Power Attack, though it may with Piranha Strike.
Juggle Load: This feat allows the reloading of slings without provoking attacks of opportunity. It’s Ammo Drop prerequisite can be replaced by the Halfling Warslinger Racial Trait.
Piranha Strike: This Feat works with any weapon that may be used with Weapon Finesse. This include weapons added to that list by a Feat such as Dervish Dance.
Rapid Reload: As Heavy Crossbows now only require a Move Action to reload if used as a Martial weapon, under those circumstances this Feat now makes them a Free Action, just as it does Light or Hand Crossbows.
Spring Attack: This Feat may explicitly be combined with Standard Action feats such as Vital Strike or Cleave.
Two Weapon Fighting: Unlike other multiple attack effects, this Feat may be used even when attacking as a Standard Action, though Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting still require the full attack action. This does also apply to a Monk’s Flurry of Blows and other abilities that imitate Two Weapon Fighting.
Weapon Finesse: This Feat additionally allows Dexterity to replace Strength for purposes of CMB. Use of this Feat also removes any CMB or CMD bonuses or penalties from Size.
Weapon Focus: This Feat may also be taken with a specific weapon combination (such as Rapier and Dagger) in which case the Feat may be used with both weapons, but only when they are wielded as a pair.
Whip Slinger: You may use your Dexterity instead of your Strength bonus when making normal melee attacks with the sling. This does not provide any of the other benefits of Weapon Finesse (such as the CMB effects, or using Dexterity with non-Sling weapons).

New Feats:
Sling Mastery:
Prerequisites: Dex 15, BAB +3, the ability to reload Slings as a Free Action.
Effect: The user of this Feat may use Dexterity instead of Strength to add to their damage when wielding a sling or sling-staff.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I was looking at a variety of books involving Golarion and population figures, trying to figure out how common, say, 7th+ level characters are, and I ran into this:


Now, judging by this roughly:

1 in 10 people is a spellcaster of some sort (that sounds right).

1 in 20 is a 3rd-4th level spellcaster (...okay, that works. Normal people cleary range up to 5th level or so in Golarion)

1 in 80 is a 5th-6th level spellcaster (again, okay, that works.)

1 in 500 or so is a 7th-8th level spellcaster (Wow, big jump. Still, that sounds right.)

1 in 2,500 or so is a 9th-10th level spellcaster (And the jumps continue, this is looking good actually.)

1 in 5,000 or so is an 11th-12th level spellcaster (Interesting. A much smaller jump this time. I'm not sure how I feel about that.)

1 in 15,000 or so is a 13th-14th level spellcaster (Okay, still a fairly small jump.)

1 in 30,000 or so is a 15th-16th level spellcaster (Another fairly small jump).

Now assuming a full half of 7th level+ characters are spellcasters (maybe not a bad assumption, spellcasters are more motivated to get them some levels, and a lot of high level characters are adventurers, about half of whom are spellcasters) you can double those numbers at 7th+ and get the number of those characters around.

I'm comfortable with that for 7th-10th levels, but think it results in too many 11th+ level characters.

Now, all those numbers are based on the spellcasting available in big cities...high level spellcasters tending to congregate in big cities makes intuitive sense to me. Assume maybe a third of people (but basically all high level spellcasters) live in cities. That, again seems right. That would drop the number of high level characters to 1/3, which would result in he following:

1 in 15,000 or so is an 11th-12th level spellcaster.

1 in 45,000 or so is a 13th-14th level spellcaster.

1 in 90,000 or so is a 15th-16th level spellcaster.

So, going by the doubling, one in 45,000 people is 15th-16th level. Considering Golarion's population, that seems right-ish. It means there are 4-6 such people in Katapesh. Maybe 8 if all high level characters favor cities. And then 8-16 13th-14th levels, and 24-48 11th-12th levels, 170 or so 9th-10th levels, and 850 or so 7th-8th levels. So a bit over 1,000 mid level characters in one of the world's biggest cities. Literally 1/2% of the population. And only 70 or so high level ones. That sounds about right to me.

Just thought I'd share that little thought exercise for others, like me, who are interested in that sort of thing.