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Ditto to all of the above. Its important to avoid thinking of everything in this game in terms of Combat effectiveness. D20 is not a combat simulator, it is an adventure simulator. Combat is a large portion of adventuring but it is by no means the only aspect. Imagine if any fantasy novel you read was nothing but the characters getting into a different fight every chapter, boring stuff.

And if your DM thinks that the only hurdles a party should have to face are monsters looking for a fight then you and he /she need to have a talk. Think about Lord of The Rings. Most of the time the heroes main problem wasn't orcs. More often it was an impassible mountain, a locked door or a gaping chasm. And who handled it? The Wizard did. You can craft climbing gear for the mountain, a key for the door or a bridge for the chasm in a minute flat. For all the massive damage your ranger might do with a bow it would take a lot of arrows to cut through a mountain.

First off... I'm not sure where the "Sound Striker" comes from.

But here goes:

1) You can "shoot" 1 sound per level. Effectively, you shoot 1/level d8s at the targets. Each single sound (each d8) affects only one target. You can split those d8s up however you want between as many targets as you want... kind of like how magic missile works. This means you CAN shoot them all at one target... but each one has to make its own touch attack, and each one allows for a Fort save for half damage.

2) Yes, the sounds do bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, and are thus...

Thanks for the advice! Sound Striker is a Bard archetype from Ultimate Magic. Sorry for not including that info.

The Weird Words (Su) ability of the Sound Striker could use some clarification.

"Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.

This performance replaces suggestion."

If you could shed some light...

1. The wording says that each sound effects a single creature, but is ambiguous over whether a single creature can be targeted with multiple sounds. Seems to me that with the current wording this ability is either way over-powered or way under-powered. If multiple words can target a single creature then the damage would be massive, and ridiculous for what you trade in. If an individual can only be targeted by one sound then your looking at a standard action and a used up round of Bardic Music in order to get a chance at what will likely be less than 10 damage. That's If you hit with the touch attack AND the target fails a fort save. I would appreciate your thoughts.

2. Also, since the ability specifies choosing a damage type can we assume that this particular ability is subject to normal damage reduction?

Thanks in advance!

If you want to play a charismatic controller that never deals damage, what about a fey bloodline sorcerer? High cha, bluff is a class skill for sorcerers, bonus to compulsion spells dc Put some points in int for more skills.

Sorc is pretty much out. For one we already have someone planning on making a sorcerer and also my character concept necessitates a high skill point class. I as actually considering playing a 3.5 Beguiler before the whole "Bards suck" thing happened. You really don't get any better at controlling then them.

If you want to play the best bard you can, it seems silly to ignore the fact that the bard is capable of dealing some pretty decent damage. Rather than cast grease, then net them, cast grease then pepper them with arrows or slice them up with your falcata. Or better yet, cast Haste then the whole party can go to town.

You make a really good argument. Proving my point may not require going completely control with a Bard. Just demonstrating how using control to enhance combat ability beyond what straight forward damage can do would also work.

I really appreciate all the feedback so far guys. Seriously.

But my biggest advice is: You can't do this. Not a pure controller Bard anyway, you simply lack the spells per day to do it effectively. You need other things to do in combat.

Now, you can absolutely build a Bard who's very effective with the spells he's got, but he needs other things to do.

So you should likely pick a fighting style, either melee or ranged, and make sure to be good with it.

I had thought about that. I was considering specializing in Whip and Net. There is a chain of feats for the net which would allow me to use it pretty effectively as a melee reach weapon. And I could keep a whip in my off hand for when I lose the Net. I've already started working with my DM on some mechanics for enchanting a special net and what weapon enchants would work with it.

With the right feats I could use a net to blind, trip and disarm along with the option of entangling. Being entangled is nothing to scoff at. Half movement with no run or charge, -2 to all attacks and -4 to effective Dex is pretty serious for a simple touch attack. Thoughts?

Here's the deal. We just started a new PF game and one of the guys playing is pretty new to PnP RPGs. We've played about 10 games and now we're going to all be rolling new characters in the same world. (DM wanted the new guys to get a feel and then make their "true" chars). Well this guy had been playing a Bard and now he has said that he pretty much despises them as useless and that any class which does either do massive damage or heal is useless. He has played a lot of WoW in the past and I believe he's thinking with is Warcraft brain of class roles.

Anyway, I think he's gotten my DM a little miffed by that comment. I was planning on rolling a Rogue or Bard anyway so I've decided that I want to make the most bad ass controller bard I can. I wanna make a Bard who can dominate in combat by shutting down anyone and everyone without dealing a single point of damage.

I would appreciate any input or advice into showing this guy the error of his ways. My DM is on board for this and has insinuated that even combos and feats that he may normally not allow will be allowed for this purpose. Nothing homebrew or 3rd party, but anything 3.5 and up is fair game.

We will be lvl 7. I do want to stay close to my original concept which is a spy/infiltration/bluffy Bard. I was originally planning to base him off of Garak from DS9 (for those of you who are nerdy enough).

So please. Help me build the most cracked out controller possible.

THE FOLLOWING IS A TALE OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH TRYING TO BE A THIEF. IT IS A COMPLETELY OPTIONAL READ. YOU MAY SKIP TO THE BOTTOM TO SEE MY THIEVERY AS CRAFTING IDEA.

The first time I played D&D it was 3.0 and I made a rogue. At this point I had played games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights and I loved them! The most exciting thing about playing the real game was the idea of being able to do whatever the hell I wanted. So during the second game, while the other party members got into a heated discussion involving things I was never a part of, I said to my DM "I'm bored. I'm gonna sneak away, break into a house and steal some stuff."

The DM was noticeably surprised. Apparently the notion of doing some burglary for no other reason than getting some loot had never occurred to any other rogues before. You were only supposed to burgle when some wizard had stashed an important quest item away in his house in the middle of town. I just wanted to burgle because I thought that's what rogues do, they burgle. The DM flipped through his notes and quickly threw out some names of prestigious land owners that I could choose from. I chose a name completely at random and proceeded to burgling.

To make a long story short, there was a drawn out sequence which forced the DM to give me over an hour and a half of his time while the rest of the players ate hotdogs. The end result was me running down the street with a cursed breastplate embedded in my chest (NOTE: If you ever manage to open a magically trapped chest in someones house and find a breastplate inside, the best way to get it out of the house is not TO PUT IT ON.) and an angry mob of guards chasing close behind.

While fleeing, I ran across the only party member who had befriended my character ,the barbarian, and I promptly took him hostage. This was done in the hope that he would play along and that none of the guards would want an innocent man harmed. My friend, god bless him, tried to help but barbarians aren't known for their bluff checks. I imagine it must have looked something like Tobey Maguire (the Cider House Rules version) threatening Gerard Butler (the 300 version) with a tiny knife and making Gerard cry. The guards ultimately chose to attack the barbarian as he was obviously complicit. That's what gave me the distraction I needed to make my escape, thanks buddy!

6 years and 8 characters later, I have never again attempted to burgle a house. A rogue simply can't be a rogue. It takes up too much of the DM's time and you can't bring the party along as odds are they simply aren't built for burgling. Where that leaves your character is with no backup and a DM who is upset with you for monopolizing his attention. Now I am making a Bard who I see as an absolute scoundrel, liar, and yes....a thief. I want to be able to play a character who acquires his items by nefarious means.

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6 years and 8 characters later, I have never again attempted to burgle a house. A rogue simply can't be a rogue. It takes up too much of the DM's time and you can't bring the party along as odds are they simply aren't built for burgling. Where that leaves your character is with no backup and a DM who is upset with you for monopolizing his attention. Now I am making a Bard who I see as an absolute scoundrel, liar, and yes....a thief. I want to be able to play a character who acquires his items by nefarious means.

So, here's what I'm thinking:

Why not allow rogues to take something similar to a crafting feat in order to represent their ill gotten gains? Crafting would still require ½ the money needed in gold for things like bribing guards and paying off informants. It still takes the same a amount of time to represent time needed to plan the heist or scam, and it still is broken up into tiers with certain level requirments. Just add a few flavor differences

* Instead of tiering it by item type (Craft Arms & Armor/ Wands/ Scrolls) you could tier it by target (Weapon Armor Shops/ Wand Shops/Mages Dwellings).
* Instead of Spellcraft, require checks with skills like bluff and disguise (for scam artistery), or perception and stealth (for burglary)

These are just some starter ideas and I realize that there are still some balance issues that would need to be dealt with. I really want to find a way to make this work though. I would greatly appreciate any input into this and I hope that this thread could end with a viable set of thievery feats.

I know that street performers Bardic Music options are kinda lame compared to normal, but the Bardic music isn't what interests me. Its their 5th level quick change ability. Being able to take a 10 on Bluff and Disguise or take a 20 once a day or more PLUS being able to feint in combat as a swift action. And all that is on top of giving them the ability to put on a disguise as a standard action! Thats an ability that the Lion Blade prestige class doesn't get untill like lvl 10, and it takes a full round action....That's pretty amazing for a 5th lvl class ability.

I am working on making a roguish bard who will be a master manipulator and infiltrator and who will be acting as an "inside man" for another character playing a ninja assassin type. I was imagining him as a non-combatant who, if forced into combat, uses trickery and misdirection instead of actually dealing damage. To that end I was looking at the Street Performer archetype which seems surprisingly perfect.

My question is this:

The Street Performer's "Streetwise" ability which replaces Bardic Knowledge is pretty cool and gives me a boost to almost all of the skills I'm looking for. However, I then realized the power of Versatile Performance and how by focusing on Acting and Oratory I could be a truly outstanding liar and cheat. The problem is that I can't tell from the wording if any of the Street Performer's coolest abilities share any synergy with Versatile Performance.

Does the Street Performer's bonus to bluff also apply to Perform(Acting) when using it to Bluff? The wording of Versatile Performance seems to indicate no but the flavor of the archetype seems to say yes.

While I like the archetype, if I have to choose between versatile performance or the archetype's bonus then it just doesn't seem very appealing. I'm having to give up a MAJOR Bard class ability and gaining an option which would force me to neglect another of the bards major abilities.

Also, a Street Performer's "Quick Change" ability replaces Lore Master and allows him to take a 10 on bluff and disguise checks. Can a 10 also be taken on the check when using Versatile Performer to replace bluff and disguise with Performance (Acting)? If not then it seems like the synergy of the archetype is way off since I would actually be penalized for making use of either ability. If I focus on Acting then I'll have wasted bonuses and options in bluff and disguise. If I focus on bluff and disguise then I get no actual benefit for building up acting, but acting is what I imagine the character being best at! The class offers a flavor but It seems to force me to pay a premium for the flavor it's supposed to bolster.

Thoughts please?