Darklordjim's page

Darklordjim wrote:

Normally I would agree with you, except normal wizards can call that spell they need out of the blue without prep, and universalists can do that once per spell level. They have psuedo-spontaneous casting. Add to that the feat that lets wizards swap prepared spells, and suddenly you get a bit more leeway on that "call the ball exactly right."

Thats my biggest problem- wizards pretty much already do what Sorcerers do. So why doesn't Sorcerer stand out more, for their restrictions? Is it that game breaking to give them 1 more spell slot per spell level?

Drain Arcane Focus only works on a spell you've prepared and already cast. (E.G.: my first level spell slots are mage armor and burning hands x2. If I cast mage armor at the beginning of the day, and haven't cast burning hands at all today, I can only use Drain Arcane Focus to cast Mage Armor.)

Interesting. I did, in fact, misread that more towards the arcane bond of 1e. Still, if you fill up on Fireball, thats still an extra Fireball, which is still the crux of my issue. Sorcerers aren't a better battle-mage or artillery piece, because an Evoker can simply cast more spells. at that point the only advantage the Sorc has is "well, I can cast lightning bolt instead" where the wizard is more "give me 10 min and I'll put anything I want into this slot"

Also, being able to use more magic items is cool and all, but if I wanted to be a stage magician I'd play a bard...

I love it when people compare wizards to sorcerers and decide that wizards are just better. Yes, they have access to all the arcane spells, theoretically, and sorcerers just don't.

Everybody ignores the fact that preparation spellcasting means you as a player have to call the ball exactly right at the beginning of each adventuring day or you ended up wasting resources on a certain number of useless spells.

Narrow as they have to be built, sorcerers aren't goaded into speculative resource waste. If I know lightning bolt, when a lightning bolt is needed, I cast it.

Designing the imperial sorcerer to have the same spell progression as a universalist wizard is very strong.

I'd be hard pressed to determine which caster is stronger. Certainly an arcane sorcerer is a better artillery piece or battle-mage. And certainly a wizard is a better toolbox. Pick your poison, they did a good job here.

Normally I would agree with you, except normal wizards can call that spell they need out of the blue without prep, and universalists can do that once per spell level. They have psuedo-spontaneous casting. Add to that the feat that lets wizards swap prepared spells, and suddenly you get a bit more leeway on that "call the ball exactly right."

Thats my biggest problem- wizards pretty much already do what Sorcerers do. So why doesn't Sorcerer stand out more, for their restrictions? Is it that game breaking to give them 1 more spell slot per spell level?

Witch of Miracles wrote:

EDIT:

Xenocrat wrote:

That's not a Sorcerer DC increase, it's a single bloodline increase. All Wizards can choose Spell Penetration at 8th level which has the same effect on most tough monsters. They can also do a once per day +2 DC to any spell with the Empowering Focus feat.

The damage increase options are garbage on both sides. Your feat and your action are not worth that small of a damage increase or resistance decrease.

I mean, you may as well talk that way because it's how we compared s%&* before anyways. Sorc has lots of access to good things in 1e so long as you don't take stupid bloodlines that are wonderfully flavorful but inevitably worse than Arcane. I don't see why we should evaluate it much differently now

The different spell lists are a pretty good reason.

...no it isn't. The only advantage it has on the spell list comparisons is against *bard*. Otherwise you're competing against druid and cleric as well

Darklordjim wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Sorcerers do have the same number of spells per day as the Wizard. Wizards get extra spells (over 3) from school or the Universalist getting bonus uses of Arcane Focus, Sorcerers get an extra spell use from their Bloodline. Both can cast (eventually) 4 spells per spell level as their baseline.

The baseline is true, but all wizards get the arcane focus, which puts their baseline at 5/day. Universalists are 4/day but with flexibility, which is supposed to be sorceroers' trick.

Not Universalits are at 4/day plus one extra spell, which can be of any level. That's 5 day at 2nd level, but not as you go on.

Specialists getting 4/day+ focus is exactly what I'm referring to. Thing is, it doesn't matter that it's only 1 extra spell a day, it's an extra spell of whatever level is relevant, and that's still one more spell than a Sorc can cast.

So what I'm hearing is that sorcs
-can do a slight increase of damage comparitavely,if you build to it
-are designed to use magic items?
-have a lot of trap feats
- the alternate spell lists are traps, because you should only take imperial bloodline?
- still lag behind the wizard by approx 1 spell/day.

So again, why not just play a wizard....? This saddens me because I like Sorcerors...

I didn't see any DC increase options, and the only two damage increase options I saw were "deal extra damage based on spell level" and "add a somatic to ignore first 10 pts of resistance", at the cost of counterspell and quicken spell, respectively...

Sorcerers do have the same number of spells per day as the Wizard. Wizards get extra spells (over 3) from school or the Universalist getting bonus uses of Arcane Focus, Sorcerers get an extra spell use from their Bloodline. Both can cast (eventually) 4 spells per spell level as their baseline.

The baseline is true, but all wizards get the arcane focus, which puts their baseline at 5/day. Universalists are 4/day but with flexibility, which is supposed to be sorceroers' trick.

It's not just at first level.

To cast a heightened spell, you have to learn it again. Which, for wizards, is a very easy task.

Sorcerers get 2 that they can choose from per day, but anything else they have to spend one of their very limited repertoire choices on relearning a spell. And even then, choosing which spells to heighten kinda feels like prepared spellcasting.

It was also pointed out that the wizard psudo-spell slots work for 10th lvl spells, whereas Sorcerers don't, as there is not a bloodline that gives you 10th lvl spells, hence no bonus slot.

Mid level will feel, spellcasting wise, just like first- that wizard can still slightly out cast you, and by then, will be pulling ahead of you in skill repertoire, given how many they get.

Hello all, I came out of lurking mode just to voice my concern here.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong; I always thought the design idea for the Sorc vs Wizard classes since 3.0 was that wizards got access to nearly everything, but had to prepare ahead of time and was fairly limited in how many times they could cast (comparitavely), where as Sorcerers could cast until the cows came home, but got severely limited spell selection.

Now, in Pathfinder 1e, Wiz got some tools to help not feel cramped, especially early on, and sorc expanded into bloodlines to feel unique. That's all well and good.

I noticed, in both actually playtesting 2e and reading the rulebook, however, that in 2e Wizards actually get more spells per day than sorcerers, and if they're Universalists, and/or take a certain class feat, they can swap spells more or less on the fly. Maybe not *as* good as true spontaneous casting, but it definitely narrowed the gap.

This leads to the question, if Wizards get access to more spells, and can cast more per day at nearly the same flexibility, why is Sorcerer even a class?

As far as I can tell, the only advantages Sorc gets is
A)access to spell lists wizards don't, for some reason,
B)more signature skills, without the Int to use them,
C)it's the only way currently to technically play Aasimar, Teifling, or someone with dragon ancestry.

And one of those is likely to get fixed with more content.

I feel Sorc got a little overlooked. I think it should have at least 1 more spell/day to keep up...