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So, Mummies Mask it is! :)
I'll grab a copy when I'm at the next rpg convention in 20 days.

Seems like these pathfinder society guild APs add to the replayability. Thanks for recommending them.
When I'm finished with MM I hope that Curse of the Crimson throne will be available.

btw: is there a way to get the APs a little bit cheaper? Maybe by buying them in a big bundle to get a discount or something?

Thanks for all the detailed information!

Hi,

I haven't found anything on this topic in the forum, so what do you think is the best of the published APs so far?

Since I play the Rise of the Runelords AP (not the card game) with friends, I tend to chose an other AP for the Card game, but I really cant decide. I kinda like the S&S theme, but the other ones are also appealing.
I don't own a single card so far (only played a short session of RotR at a convention)

Oh, and please don't spoil :)

Which one is your favourite/should I buy?

Edit
Bonus question: Which are the quintessential Addons to get? I read something about class decks and ultimate wilderness etc?

It's 20 to notice+20 to pinpoint+20(if they are stationary)

I think, that the 20 to notice is just a quick to play comprehension of the rules. It consists of 0 [Notice a visible creature] and +20 [Creature or object is invisible] = 20 to gain a hunch that something is there.

On the pinpoint(+20): this is just a flat +20 which adds on whatever dc we finally calculate, that's why I skip this +20 in the examples.

So you are starting at 60 before stealth is rolled or any modifiers come into play.

I wrote in my consolidated table:

if we add the +20 from pinpoint to this, it results in a DC of 60 to pinpoint a still standing creature before stealth is rolled or any modifiers come into play.
So it seems we both are saying the same thing.

Hi fellow Pathfinders,

First: The formatting here is quite terrible. If you want to see the original post you could see it on reddit: reddit post on invisibility

TL;DR: Look at the bottom.

since the rules for the interaction between perception, invisibility and stealth are noted redundant and are not good formatted the topic comes up often and is often debated.

I wrote this over the time of a few weeks, so the text might be a little disjointed.
It is my intention to produce a clear and easy to use lookup table for the common case that someone is by any means invisible.

Lets get into the interactions of the different rules:

----------

We start from the [Perception Rules](https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/skills/perception):

First the *BASE DC* is set:

Detail | Perception DC
:--------:|:---------:
Hear the details of a conversation | 0
Notice a visible creature | 0
Hear the sound of a creature walking | 10
Notice a creature using Stealth | Opposed by Stealth

The following table gives us the modifiers (at least some of them)

Perception Modifiers | DC Modifier
:--------:|:---------:
Distance to the source, object, or creature | +1/10 feet
Through a closed door | +5
Through a wall | +10/foot of thickness
[...] | some more
Creature or object is invisible | +20

If we have an invisible creature around we start at 0 [Notice a visible creature] and add +20 [Creature or object is invisible] we add also +1/10 feet [Distance to the source, object, or creature] and other conditional modifiers.
If there is an invisible creature around which uses *Stealth* we set the DC to the opposed Stealth roll [Notice a creature using Stealth] and add +20 [Creature or object is invisible] also we add +1/10 feet [Distance to the source, object, or creature] and other conditional modifiers.

From this point on I ignore the +1/10 feet and similar modifiers since they apply to all the cases and bloat the example up.

This leaves us with the following data:

PERCEPTION TABLE

Notice Invisible creature when… | DC | DC using Stealth
---------|----------|----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | 20 | Stealth + 20
Standing Still | ? | ?
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | ? | ?
Moving normal | 10 (Hear the sound of a creature walking)? | ?
Running/Charging | ? | ?
Casting/Fighting | 0 (Casting is like hearing a Conversation?) or -10 (Hear the sound of battle?) | ?

--------------------------

Lets look at this from the [stealth rules](https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/skills/stealth)

Apparently it is important if the creature who is using stealth is moving.

>You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

And:

>Magic: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving

So lets incorporate that into a table:

STEALTH TABLE

Notice Invisible creature when… | DC | DC using Stealth
---------|----------|----------
Standing Still | ? | Stealth + 40
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | ? | Stealth + 20
Moving normal | ? | Stealth + 15
Running/Charging | ? | Not possible
Casting/Fighting | ? | Not possible

--------------------------

Next we look at the [invisibility rules](https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/gamemastering/special-abilitie s#TOC-Invisibility):

It starts with this sentence:

>A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature *within 30 feet* with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack.

It seems like this sets the *Base DC* to 20
Next:

>It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check

So to pinpoint a creature we just have to add a flat +20 to the DC. Simple. We will skip this, since it is just a flat +20 no matter what.

Now it begins to get complicated:

Invisible creature is... | Perception DC Modifier
---------|----------
In combat or speaking | –20
Moving at half speed | –5
Moving at full speed | –10
Running or charging | –20
Not moving | +20
Using Stealth | Stealth check +20
Some distance away | +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) | +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) | +15

Here we have some redundancy with the Perception Modifiers like the +5 for [Behind a Door] or the usual +1/10 ft distance modifier. So it looks like both tables extend each other.

The bad thing is, that in this table cumulative and exclusive modifiers are mixed.

The Moving section seems to be exclusive: You determine your movement for that round and pick the worst one.
How about moving and speaking(Casting e.g.)? Seems like it is cumulative. Also the bottom part about the distance and behind obstacles seems to be cumulative.

INVISIBILITY TABLE

Notice invisible creature within 30 ft when… | DC | DC using Stealth
---------|----------|----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | 20 | 20 + Stealth+20 ?
Standing Still | 40 | 40 + Stealth+20 ?
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | 15 | 15 + Stealth+20 ?
Moving normal | 10 | 10 + Stealth+20 ?
Running/Charging | 0 | ?
Casting/Fighting | 0 | ?

If we compare that to the results from the Perception Rules we find that the results match.
For example a walking invisible creature:
Per Invisibility Rules:
DC 20[Gain a Hunch] –10[Moving at full speed] = *DC10]*
vs
Per Perception Rules:
DC 10[Hear the sound of a creature walking] (Adding the +20 for invisibility would make no sense here. Would it?)= *DC10]*

So far so good. But what about that entry:
> Using Stealth : Stealth check +20

The Base DC is stated as 20 [Gain a Hunch].

If we take this RAW it's DC 20[Gain a Hunch] +Stealth Check +20 [Invisible Creature using Stealth] +20[Per Stealth Rules for being invisible] -5 [Per Stealth Rules for moving faster than half speed] –10[Moving at full speed] = DC 45 + Stealth Check

We see here some double dipping into modifiers. This can't be correct and leaves me confused. (
There is something wrong here...

--------------------

The [Invisibility Spell](https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/i/invisibilit y) mentions that:

>If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.

INVISIBILITY SPELL TABLE

Notice invisible creature when… | DC | DC using Stealth
---------|----------|----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | ? | ?
Standing Still | ? | Stealth + 40
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | ? | Stealth + 20
Moving normal | ? | Stealth + 20
Running/Charging | ? | ?
Casting/Fighting | ? | ?

This is exactly what is stated in the section "Modifiers" in the [stealth rules](https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/skills/stealth).

So if we would follow this RAW, this would double dip the bonus for being invisible, since the spell give +40/+20 to Stealth checks and in the Stealth check itself it gets another +40/+20 modifier for being invisible.

--------------------

Now I try to find commonalities and differences between the different tables and consolidate these into one single table:

First the NON STEALTH version. Just an invisible creature:

Notice Invisible creature when… | PERCEPTION TABLE | STEALTH TABLE | INVISIBILITY TABLE | INVISIBILITY SPELL TABLE | | CONSOLIDATED TABLE
--------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | 20 | | 20 | ? | | 20
Standing Still | ? | ? | 40 | ? | | 40
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | ? | ? | 15 | ? | | 15
Moving normal | 10 | ? | 10 | ? | | 10
Running/Charging | ? | ? | 0 | ? | | 0
Casting/Fighting | 0 or -10 | ? | 0 | ? | | 0

Seems pretty clear for most of the entries. Casting/Fighting was: 0 (Casting is like hearing a Conversation?) or -10 (Hear the sound of battle?)
So the sound of battle appears to be more perceptible than just a creature fighting.

Next the complicated one. A creature using stealth:

Notice Invisible creature *using stealth* when… | PERCEPTION TABLE | STEALTH TABLE | INVISIBILITY TABLE | INVISIBILITY SPELL TABLE | | CONSOLIDATED TABLE
--------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | ----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | Stealth + 20 | | 20 + Stealth+20 ? | ? | | Stealth + 20
Standing Still | ? | Stealth + 40 | 40 + Stealth+20 ? | Stealth + 40 | | Stealth + 40
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | ? | Stealth + 20 | 15 + Stealth+20 ? | Stealth+20 ? | | Stealth + 20
Moving normal | ? | Stealth + 15 | 10 + Stealth+20 ? | Stealth + 20 ? | | Stealth + 15
Running/Charging | ? | Not possible | ? | ? | | Not possible
Casting/Fighting | ? | Not possible | ? | ? | | Not possible

Standing Still: Two sources state it is Stealth + 40 the other one is dubious.
Moving slowly: The same.
Moving normal: The Invisibility Spell instructs to make a stealth check and Stealth says on a faster movement than half your speed you subtract 5 from the DC to notice you. So it's two sources which seem to be consistent vs. one dubious which is double dipping.

--------------------

TL;DR:
The rules for invisibility are terrible and provoke misunderstandings.
Is this consolidated table correct? (Not considering modifiers like distance and (un)favourable conditions...)

CONSOLIDATED TABLE

Notice invisible creature when… | DC | DC using Stealth
---------|----------|----------
General: Gain a hunch/notice | 20 | Stealth + 20
Standing Still | 40 | Stealth + 40
Moving slowly (less than half Speed) | 15 | Stealth + 20
Moving normal | 10 | Stealth + 15
Running/Charging | 0 | Not possible
Casting/Fighting | 0 | Not possible

Hey Joey!
Hope life is treating you better in the new year!
I really love your work! Any chance you will continue?
By the way: So far no kills, but a few close calls: Jaagrath critted the mage down to -12 ... and he has an constitution of 12 :D

Hi Wraithstrike:

As an example if I roll a 35 for my stealth check the DC is 55, assuming no other modifiers are in play.

Yes... But there ARE other modifiers at all times!

Not hiding(20)+20(pinpoint)=40 to locate square

Low roll trying to hide(18)+20(pinpoint)=38.

For the following examples I will cut out the +1 per 10 feet distance Modifier to keep it "easy"

No stealth, not walking, just standing still: 0(to see a visible creature) + 20 (invisible) +20 (standing still)
DC to notice: 40
Pinpoint + 20
This means that it is a DC60 Perception Check to Pinpoint a still standing invisible creature.

For the following I will use your assumed 18 for the Stealth Roll
Stealth, not walking, just standing still: 18 + 40 (invisible and not moving)
DC to notice: 58
Pinpoint + 20
This means that it is a DC78 Perception Check to Pinpoint a still standing stealth unsing invisible creature.

References:
Invisibility
Stealth
Perception

Some things in particular:

Magic: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.