DarkPantsu's page

You cannot do a hide action if there's no DC to compare to

This is incorrect. Take this situation for example:

Combat Situation

Red are blue are in combat. They both know of each other's position because of hearing. Note that this means they're NOT observed to each other:

Observing requires a precise sense, which for most creatures means sight.

In particular, they're hidden to each other:

While you're hidden from a creature, that creature knows the space you're in but can't tell precisely where you are.

Now, if blue were to use the hide action, note that there's no roll:

The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you're observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from.

(emphasis mine)

Blue's not observed, therefore blue does not roll against anyone. "But", you might say, "the entire point of hiding is to stop become unobserved by someone that's observing you, why would blue hide here". Well, as PC notes:

Success: If the creature could see you, you're now hidden from it instead of observed. If you were hidden from or undetected by the creature, you retain that condition.

That second part "If you were hidden from or undetected by the creature, you retain that condition." is particularly important, because you didn't roll against those creatures (because you're not observed by them), yet, you still got a success. What does this mean?

If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again.

In other words. If blue, as its last action in its turn hides (no roll, remember), and then red does the following movement:

Movement

Blue retains its hidden condition, because he still has cover, meaning if red attacks blue, there's a dc 11 flat check to miss. Red still knows Blue's position in any case, because blue didn't sneak. He's only hidden, NOT undetected.

DarkPantsu wrote:

Let's say creature A uses the hide action while they're completely alone. They then stay still, making no further actions, until a couple of minutes later, creature B passes by. They have line of sight to the square creature A is occupying but at every point of creature B's movement, creature A has cover. Creature B is NOT doing the seek action. Creature A simply stays still, until B has passed by.

Is there any roll involved? Does B has any chance at discovering A? My current RAW reading of the rules is that no, if B isn't using the seek action, and A has cover or concealment the whole time, A succeeds "automatically". Is that correct?

I believe that's correct. If A is just happy to stay there and not do anything, and B isn't looking for A, then B is just going to pass by.

This fits with the idea of when you should be rolling for initiative: when someone does something that the opposition would want to react to. A is NOT doing anything B would want to react to, so there's no need to actually fire up encounter mode.

If B wanted a chance to spot A, B should have been searching.

Whether it's an encounter or not seems to be the crux of the situation. Player Core does admit that sometimes you enter into encounter mode outside of actual combat:

In Pathfinder, this is called an encounter. Encounters usually involve combat, but they can also be used in situations where timing is critical, such as during a chase or when dodging hazards.

It seems clear to me that timing isn't critical here, specially when you take into consideration that you only have to roll for hiding when you sneak or do otherwise obtrusive actions, which B isn't interested in doing. It makes no difference if B takes 30 seconds to pass by, a full minute, or sticks around reading a book for a quarter hour and then moves on, either way the result is the same. That hardly seems to be the action-packed sequence that Player Core seems to allude to when talking about combat.

DarkPantsu wrote:

Let's say creature A uses the hide action while they're completely alone. They then stay still, making no further actions, until a couple of minutes later, creature B passes by.

This feels like you are trying to contrive a scenario where a check isn't appropriate due to narrative reasons. That isn't how RPG game mechanics work. They don't necessarily match up with IRL reality, and sometimes not even completely match up with the game's narrative.

If creature A is wanting to hide, there needs to be a check involved somewhere when creature B comes by.

There are a few ways that the check could be handled. Some involve creature A rolling stealth against the passive perception DC of creatures that pass by. Others involve creature A using their passive stealth against an active perception check of passing creatures such as creature B.

But if the GM set up this encounter with either creature A being the enemy and creature B being the party members that are trying to hunt it, or set it up with creature A being the party members and creature B being an enemy that they are trying to avoid, at some point there needs to be a check made for stealth vs perception.

If it is two players playing hide-and-seek with their respective characters and the GM is just watching the fun, then the players can make their own rules.

I'm not actually running a game right now, at all, just trying to figure out the hiding rules in detail. As far as I'm concerned, neither of these parties are the PCs, or for that matter, enemies at all.

To me, the idea that "If creature A is wanting to hide, there needs to be a check involved somewhere when creature B comes by." seems to stem more from an idea of "fairness" or "balance", which is ok. I can totally see running the situation that way if it ever comes up in a table. In this thread, though, I'm only interested in a RAW interpretation of the rules, and how such a situation would be handled by the rules.

Let's say creature A uses the hide action while they're completely alone. They then stay still, making no further actions, until a couple of minutes later, creature B passes by. They have line of sight to the square creature A is occupying but at every point of creature B's movement, creature A has cover. Creature B is NOT doing the seek action. Creature A simply stays still, until B has passed by.

Is there any roll involved? Does B has any chance at discovering A? My current RAW reading of the rules is that no, if B isn't using the seek action, and A has cover or concealment the whole time, A succeeds "automatically". Is that correct?