Hellknight

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When I rolled really good stats once, I played an old human fighter with a ridiculously high charisma, crazy general feats like Cosmopolitan/Run/Additional Traits (for more class skills)/Big Game Hunter/Fleet, huge bonuses in Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Linguistics, and Perform (storyteller). He usually fought unarmed or with a dagger, or let his enemies choose the weapons. I took the trait that gave him Prestidigitation spell-like ability once a day so he was always clean and crisp. His armor made him resistant to fire, cold, and lightning, he was immune to poison, he had darkvision from a belt, Ring of Featherfall, and a Ring of Regeneration, Wayfinder with the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, just stuff to make him a real implacable man.

He didn't always drink beer...but when he did, he drank Dos Equis.


I hit a creative brick wall with my character in a new Pathfinder game. I think it needs a fresh pair of eyes. It will be an Evil 14th level game. So far the party make-up consists of:

1.)An Anti-Paladin with Improved Crit Falchion, that is channeling stunning touches of corruption through it. Plus a Charm Monster battery in the form of a Succubus.
2.)A weapon finessing, two-weapon fighting rogue with Agile (must have since 7 Str) shortswords, and the rest of his money and feats sunk into skill enhancement. So all the pertinent ones (Stealth, Perception, Disable, Diplomacy) are in the the 30-40's. Plus his Wizard cohort that regularly buffs him every combat (greater invisibility, summon monster flankers, haste, etc).
3.)A drow cleric that didn't really show off that much because he kept getting jumped the entire session and was forced to spend most rounds healing himself. Does have an impressive confusion aura ability though.

So their DPR is really good enough against most of the stuff we fight. So I've decided on a battlefield control Fighter/tank. Inspired as I was by some recent Fighter threads on the board, I would like to make this with a pure fighter build. I like playing the game on Ironman difficulty.

Archetypes (Armor Master, Dawnflower Dervish): I am really considering Lore Warden instead, but these two together give a versatile mix of offensive and defensive powers.

25-point buy: I plan on maxing out strength because I won't have Weapon Training, and I am focusing on combat manuevers to an extent. So 30 (18 +2 racial +3 level +1 inherent +6 item). The rest are up in the air, but I know I'll need a decent dex.

Feats:
1 Blind-Fight
H Iron Will
F Combat Reflexes
F Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Dodge
F Mobility
5 Combat Patrol
F Disruptive
7 Combat Expertise
F Improved Trip
9 Fury's Fall
F Spellbreaker
11 Pin Down
F Power Attack
13 Ki Throw
F Dazing Assault

The general tactic revolves around Combat Patrol and the movement that provides after I trip incoming enemies and then place them where ever I want within my 15 ft reach with Ki Throw setting them up for the Anti-Paladin and Rogue, and then hopefully moving to get my reach over a spellcaster, and then Disruption-Spellbreaker trip them into a square next to me. Dazing Assault fun on it afterwards. Also, stopping enemies in that range from 5 ft stepping, and hopefully preventing full-round attacks on any of the rest of the party.

Dawnflower Dervish just gives me a host of movement-offensive capabilities in case I can't use my signature style described above (like fighting one big monster).

Where I need advice is:

1.)What weapon should I start with? I'm specifically not focusing on any so I can just pick up the best one that drops first, and don't plan to sink that much character creation gold into it, using the cleric or cohort wizard to GMW whatever I start with, probably +1.

2.)What's the best stat array for this build? I'm toying with spending 10,000 gp on an implanted Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone so that I could be a venerable fighter desperately seeking immortality. That, and the +3 to all my mental stats.

3.)Am I missing better feats to compliment or round out this build?

4.)Are there any crucial pieces of gear I should be focusing on? Right now with my sketched out starting items, I am looking at a 35 AC without any shield bonus (+14 +4 Mithral Full Plate w/Armored Kilt +3 Dex +2 Ring of Protection +2 Amulet of NA +1 Trait +1 Dodge +1 Insight (dusty rose ioun stone) +1 Luck (jingasa of the fortunate warrior). Do I need this much AC? Should that money go elsewhere?

5.) My saves are going to be a point of concern, but I'm going to browbeat the cleric into having Hero's Feast to negate fear and poison, and the first item I bought was a Wayfinder w/ Clear Spindle Ioun Stone for immunity to charm and compulsion effects. If I give up on the inherent bonus manual for strength and the natural armor amulet, I should be able to afford a Scarab of Protection for death attacks and stuff, but my Fort will probably be in the high teens, so I'm not sure.

6.)Are my numbers going to be good enough to do what I want to do? I know against the foes that are too big, I am just going to have to suck it up and swing away at their AC like a normal fighter (why I am still considering Lore Warden for their huge bonus to all CMB checks to put the Large and some of the Huge monsters into the realm of possibility). I know my AC is higher than the rest of the party (minus whomever the rogue is currently sneak attacking), and my attack bonus is still better, as the fighter's should be (until the Anti-Paladin smites). I'm concerned about not having Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling, but I really don't want to pigeon hole myself on weapons like the rest of the party did.

So, if you managed to read all that (thanks), ideas?


Well, I like the dungeons very much. So I thought I'd try my hand. I'm not all up on the statistical averages and everything, but I can throw out my build and general tactics and you all can tell me if it works or not.

I was a little loose with the "fighter" interpretation of the challenge. Martial warrior? Sure. Mostly fighter? Sure. Mostly bonus feats with a smidgeon of class features? Sure. Straight fighter? No. I think Fighters in Pathfinder are very much their opposite from 3.5 in that they're the ones that benefit greatly from a level or two dip here and there for synergistic bonuses, where it used to be the opposite. I hope I still qualify.

Warrior McKiller, the Pragmatic

Spoiler:

He dipped his 2nd and 3rd levels in Monk, and then returned to his fighter roots. With the archetype chosen, this gives him the saves he should have, limited unarmed ability which he should have, the class skills he should have, and more feats. Monk AC bonus? Irrelevent, though its nice should he be caught without his armor, which should be never with spells like Bed of Iron and Keep Watch. With the Sash of the War Champion he is none the worse for the wear. That item is the Bee's Knees. If feel that between it and Gloves of Dueling, Paizo is given the go ahead to multiclass virtually every Fighter between 1-4 levels.

LE :p Human (Dual Talent) Fighter 6/Monk (Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2

AC 27 (+11 armor +2 Dex +1 Natural +1 Enhance Natural +1 Dodge +1 Deflection)/touch 14
HP 68 (5d10 Fighter + 2d8 Monk + 16 Con + 8 Toughness)

Str 22 base 16 +2 race +2 level +2 item
Dex 15 base 13 +2 race
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7

Weapon Training (Monk)

Atk +15/+10 (1d8+10) Temple Sword
Atk +14/+9 (1d6+7) Unarmed Strike
Atk +10/+5 (1d8+6) Bow...Eh

Fort +14
Ref +9
Will +11 (+3 vs fear)

6 Ranks Fighter + 4 Ranks Monk + 6 Favored Class
Acrobatics +8 (+9 vs jump)(3 ranks)
Climb +8 (1 rank)
Perception +18 (8 ranks)
Survival +6 (1 rank)
Swim +10 (3 ranks)

1 Iron Will
F Power Attack
M Improved Unarmed Strike
M Stunning Fist (4/day - DC 16)
M Dodge
3 Great Fortitude
M Combat Reflexes
M Toughness
F Crane Style
5 Mobility
F Blind-Fight
7 Deadly Aim
F Combat Patrol

Mwk Temple Sword 330
+2 Fullplate 5,650
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4,000
Sash of the War Champion 4,000
Ring of Protection +1 2,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 2,000
Belt of Strength +2 4,000
Boots of Springing and Striding 5,500
Eyes of the Eagle 2,500

Silk Rope 100 ft 20
Arrows (200) 10
Blunt Arrows (100) 10
Cold Iron Arrows (100) 20
Silver Arrows (100) 30

Heavy Wooden Shield 7 (back up AC buff)
Mwk Mighty (+6) Composite Longbow 1,000
Climbing Kit 50
Healer's Kit 50
Tanglefoot Bag (8) 400 (2 given to each of the other 3 party members)

Scroll of Remove Fear 25 (Given to someone that can use it should the unlikely happen)
Oil of Align Weapon 300
Oil of Magic Weapon (2) 100
Potion of Cure Light Wounds (8) 400
Potion of Expeditious Retreat (2) 100
Potion of Lesser Restoration x6 300 (Made by a Paladin. I knew they were good for something. ;))

223 gp left for incidentals

Crypt of the Mummy Lord

Spoiler:

Part 1: He sees the trap. He avoids the trap. He tells everyone else to avoid the trap. In the evident of falling in, Warrior climbs out and shoots the Cube to death.

Part 2: Yeah, the Command Undead or Hide from Undead thing. In any case, the fighter can outrun them to fight another day.

Part 3: Now what's the size of this room? I assume he gets charged by the mummies, and they get their licks in. He makes his saves against their fear effect. If not, someone has to waste an action using the Remove Fear scroll on him, quickly. Warrior tells the party to hold and throw their tanglefoot bags at the mummies after he moves away, then run down the hall and wait for him (not the most heroic, but this is about saving resources right?). The fighter sets up a Combat Patrol, lets the mummies waddle over to him (the ones that can move). He trips them as they approach. He steps up and full attack with Power Attack/Crane Style (1d8+16/AC 31). He AoOs them when they stand up. He withdraws to another section of the room or down the hall. They waddle after him (entangled or not, he's still faster than them). He sets up another Combat Patrol. Rinse/Repeat.He just stands and finishes them once there are fewer of them/they are suitably roughed up. Heals himself with potions/heal checks/light healing from the party healer.

Part 4: Again, unless the unforeseeable happens on the first round, the fighter closes his eyes and stands there swinging (rerolling the miss chance) at them until they die.

Part 5: This is the bastard one. There is a chance Warrior can spot it though when it peeks out right before it attacks (it does need to know where we are in the room, but it does have a huge stealth check). The fighter takes his licks here too. Crane Style to boost his touch AC to 18. Have to use an oil of magic weapon to hurt it. He encourages magical arrows from the party to be shot at it, and perhaps a Magic Missile or two (preferrably two). He will stop and drink potions of lesser restoration if it gets too hairy. I kind of think this is the toughest challenge for me in the dungeon as the rest of the party will be going all out on the Mummy Lord.

Part 7: The fighter will make sure that a tanglefoot bag is thrown at the mummy to lower his AC and reflex save for the spell blasters. His Remove Fear scroll will probably need to be used on someone in this fight. The cleric Invisibility Purge after the Mummy Lord uses Invisibility the first time. Warrior sets up Combat Patrols between the mummy lord and the party casters where he can at least attempt to trip it (I calculate a 28 CMD maybe -2 from the tanglefoot bag) so that it can't hit them with touch attack spells and slams. They blast away at it, I assume. That's that.


The Valley of God-Hates-Paladins
Spoiler:

Part 1: Seeing the dread gazebo from even further away, and being informed by the party knowledge font of its dire properties, Warrior McKiller orders the rest of the party away, and drinks his potion of Expeditious Retreat. He then begins the rain of arrows from a hefty distance letting the gazebo come to him while the party makes their escape. When finally in range, he hits it with a Tanglefoot bag (notice pattern). At half-speed the gazebo cannot keep up with the fighter, who after taking run actions, continues the rain of arrows, with intermitten run actions. It is a slow process, and he may need another potion of Expeditious Retreat until he finishes it off, and rejoins the party.

*Grappling it with the party's help was probably the better plan, but I would have never thought to have attempted it. So I came up with this instead.

Part 2: Again, seeing it from even further away. Warrior's handy sage informs him of what they are, and blunt arrows are produced to finish these slimy foes from afar. Much like the last fight, but no potions needed, and the party doesn't have to get that far away. They've made knowledge checks. They're participating.

Part 3: Party throws Tanglefoot bags at slugs, 'cause why not? The fighter pulls out his shield and walks up to them forcing them to provoke if they want to move around or make ranged attacks. Power Attack/Crane Style and he wails on them for rounds. Party wastes a Summon Monster II or the like to create flanking dogs and diversions for the pitiful number of attacks the slugs make a round. It takes a long time, but with arrow support, he finished them off as well.

*Slugs can't be tripped.


That's that. I think I got through both adventures expending a comparable amount of party resources to the example paladin. I know it may seem Warrior McKiller is a bossy fighter, but that's really his job. Fight Coreographer. And, I am assuming that he has a near perfect party backing him up (i.e. an obedient one). Now, I'm not sure about all the statistics and everything, but just comparing some numbers it looks plausible for this to come out O.K. If someone knows them, I would like to find out what they were. I'm curious to know how much I may be overvaluing Tanglefoot bags, Combat Patrol, trip, speed, attrition, etc.

Again, I'm not really sure why everyone here is comparing straight fighters to paladins. Paladins by the nature of their abilities should not multiclass, but the fighter, especially with the items I mentions can retain all his class features and readily dip into classes that give him a wide array of other powers. A charismatic fighter for instance could take two levels of ninja get some ki points/sneak attack/class skills that he wants. Or that same charasmatic fighter could *gasp!* dip into Paladin for two levels and get the saves to charisma, all without hurting his own abilities. I think the paladin would be making a mistake to interrupt his progression for anything. YMMV


All you need to make a stealth check is cover or concealment. So can you make a stealth check from the 50% concealment granted by Lightning Stance?

If yes, what about the 20% concealment vs ranged attacks from Wind Stance.

It came up as I was looking for a mundane way to make a Pathfinder version of Flash Step.


Can I defensively wield a two-handed weapon on my turn, then swap to just holding it in one hand when it is not my turn (thus not being able to use it for AoO) to gain the benefit of the Crane Wing feat?