Castilliano's page

+1 to an attack adds about +1/6 damage vs. typical enemies. (A dev demonstrated the math in the first playtest when 3.X/PF1 players grumbled.) At low levels that's about 2 damage for an action & Reaction, which means your PC should have something better to do during combat (eventually for both). +1 to actions w/o a critical/2x success fare even worse. As mentioned, it's still helpful when you're doing nothing, but hopefully you've built a PC who seldom has to do nothing. Moving into flanking, using Demoralize, or casting/Raising a shield have more impact. As RD said, the return & certainty on Aid rises a lot at higher levels, yet your actions & Reactions should've become more valuable too. This makes choosing interesting rather than must-do/don't.

And asking for a bonus even when your PC doesn't actually help does tie into the OP's premise; shouldn't PCs progress even when they fail? In broader plot strokes that involve the players'/table's momentum, I'd say mostly. Keep the narrative flowing, even if diverted. But in specific combat action? No, no more than a missed Strike should automatically have impact. Like said by Mathmuse, Aid is a weak action, at least in combat. Plus faulty actions in combat don't derail the narrative or pause the game itself; the ebb and flow of combat's necessary IMO so there's tension, which an action-fantasy narrative requires.

There's an opening, you take it. The Fighter doesn't know why there was an opening, but it was there when the guy fiddled around. This is assuming the Fighter considers the caster an enemy.

I'd think in a city that random people would be performing manipulate actions quite often, adjusting clothes, picking up boxes, etc. So even though Subtle spellcasting triggers a Reaction, there's no reason for the Fighter to suspect the caster's taking an offensive action (especially not casting) simply because their guard's down.

Hu? The feat is called Scout's warning, implying that you are scouting (even if not mandatory).

It's already very weak.

Yes, it's piggybacking off of Scouting (Exploration activity), as if you were perpetually Scouting (at least when using Perception or Survival). It's equivalent to gaining a second Exploration activity, plus it can stack when you dedicate yourself to fully Scouting.

I have no builds that would take it, but then again I don't Scout either, nor would I with a high-Perception class like Ranger. This might be the point of the feat: Ranger-vibe includes scouting ahead for the party, but who wants to waste a good finder-of-things? Thus a way to fulfill both roles.

On the other hand, local PFS groups do look to assign a Scout (often a PC w/ low Perception) and I could see one of those advocates taking it; it's like granting Improved Initiative to everyone else. (A feat I will never take, but players recommend it often on those lists.)

But yeah, it doesn't work for yourself, nor was it meant to.

Hello, I saw some talk about Scout's Warning.

It's logical to add the bonus to oneself because you can't warn your allies about something you don't know, but the feat tells "your allies".
Could it be clarified?

You are operating with all the information you have, much like those Searching do (and they have no +1). Your allies are also working with all the information they have, except you're sharing some more. That's the +1, not a special piece of info, but an extra POV you're focusing on sharing promptly. You aren't getting anything extra to your POV (unless someone else happens to be Scouting too, only helping you of course since the bonuses don't stack.)

Restrained doesn't need exploitation to nullify most threats. Getting it on a mere success is ridiculous. I don't need to return to 3.X/PF1 days where grappling destroyed most...well everything that could be grappled. And since yes, it does stack with Slow and most other debuffs, it's particularly powerful...in an extremely dull way.

This is one of those abilities where you ask how the party will feel when the enemies use this on them. WTH, Paizo?

The Thievery abilities that feel daring or Jackie-Chan-ish, i.e. Dirty Trick, would become viable via Athletics/Acrobatics. I'm sure Jackie would've made an excellent thief, but his Dirty Tricks obviously do not rely on that skill set.

Many martial classes perform maneuvers well, generally relying on Athletics with some (IMO the better ones) piggybacking off of Strikes. By shifting to Acrobatics and having Strikes which piggyback off of maneuvers, Daredevils could establish their distinction. This might include picking up Thievery-based combat options in the same vein.

I wouldn't want to see wasted print by repeating this swap feat after feat when one basic ability to swap would suffice (and maybe another for Thievery, perhaps Performance too). And then the feats could focus on finding the right crit/crit failure/Press balance that's difficult to finesse. (Honestly, the emphasis on Press Attacks, "being good at an attack that's inherently flawed", feels itself flawed, like going the wrong direction and having to U-turn hard to catch back up...with every single feat.)

In the vein of using maneuvers to set up damage or Strikes, I'd like to recommend (if it's not too late! Devs are you reading this??) using more Fortune effects. This would keep Assurance (also a Fortune effect) and Sure Strike from making offensive maneuvers too guaranteed and IMO resonates with the risk/reward vibe DD shoots for.

Thank you, Mathmuse, for crunching so much data and researching to gather even more.

Mechanically, your GM is correct. The situation doesn't match the necessary conditions so you cannot create that bridge. And stairs would require an adjacent vertical surface.

Thematically, Stepping Stones creates just that, stones you step across. It doesn't form one object, like a bridge or ramp, etc; but a series of small ones, like well, stepping stones. They're so close their separation doesn't alter movement, but they aren't attached to each other.

Metaphysically, you should probably be able to make the stones and they just collapse, but that'd be a headache to adjudicate as players try to drop stones on enemies. Or maybe whatever genie's on the other side doesn't like sending stones through your Gate that are going to be wasted; they're such pretty, smooth-topped stones.

Player Core, p444, Grabbed condition:

"If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied."

The word "lost" should be "disrupted" so that this outcome is well defined. By not using rules terminology, it's ambiguous whether "losing the action" is the same as having an action "disrupted".

Lost is as much rules terminology as disrupted (doubly so since Paizo emphasizes they prefer everyday language over code or legalese). The words even share a rules entry "Disrupted and Lost Spells" and under Disrupting Actions one recurring verb is "lose" as part of the explanation. Lost also can help clarify there's no partial effect, as might happen with disrupted (not that I imagine that's common).

Cultures.

And yes, we were just talking about mold people, not that kind. But that did get me thinking of what kind of people they'd be which reminded me of my major beef with adding playable Ancestries (mostly back before races were called that): they often lack culture. A new Ancestry should have enough meat* that one could write a scenario where the vibes couldn't be replicated with a simple Ancestry swap. And where on might find several distinct facets about them or voices among them (even if hive mind was among its themes). Let's avoid the shallow 60s-80s TV aliens that are just costumed people with one weird quirk. Lets get Babylon 5 level. :-) Same for underground cities, etc., at least the noteworthy ones.

Anyway, PF2's mostly done well with this. Let's (by which I mean you devs) keep it that worthwhile, even when the hurdle's a bit higher within the strange Darklands.

(I guess talking about vegetable-people has got me itchin' to get carnivorous.)

At 2nd Rank Deep Breath lasts an hour, so you can renew it after every conversation and before every door or nexus. You'd usually end up with enough air to share some Recall Knowledge info, cast a couple spells, and still have extra to cast a few spells in a stomach or underwater. That's so much better than the PC who hadn't taken the spell having to wait for allies to rescue them or gamble. For much of a PC's career that'd be sufficient, but the spell also bumps up to 8 hours at 4th Rank, where you'd hardly have to track usage.

I'd still recommend Air Bubble too, after one isn't using 1st Rank spells in combat any more, though more likely for an ally.

Just to clarify the last quotes, mine was about Guidance & Forbidding Ward above my handle, not the Explorer's Clothing shenanigans! :-P

Deep Breath allows you to cast while swallowed etc, i try my very best to grab it for higher level play.

Heck, I like Deep Breath at low-level; even if it doesn't help you cast yet, it helps alleviate suffocation. Felt pretty good at the docks the last session.

And yeah, Weaknesses are significant. In my head I run my PCs against at-level or level-1 opponents to see if they're keeping up with the power curve and to highlight where my PCs need assistance. A Cantrip vs. a Weakness proves decisive in many battles (as does a Sustained Holy Spiritual Armament at a mere 2nd level).

Let's not forget Glamorize either, if only for aesthetics. :-)
I've also used Spout to help put out fires, something that can be difficult, even insurmountable, if you lack water spells/Impulses. And I took Draw Moisture purely for thematic reasons and have ended up using it a surprising amount (also mostly for aesthetics).

Do people still take Guidance and Forbidding Ward at the highest levels? I'd hope they'd developed better ways to spend their actions or found other sources of Status bonuses.

That's funny because this week I was considering a Vegepygmy build, spear and all. Even looked up some pictures for inspiration, but ultimately it was uninspiring. Being non-vocal would be rough in actual play, especially PFS where I'd want to contribute in all those skill challenges, many of which are social or use Recall Knowledge. And yes I'd have played a Fungus Leshy as the chassis, probably wear non-metal armor (if wearing armor at all). For this I'd consider them "not like those plant Leshy", if only because you aren't a plant, but also because I'd be reskinning anyway.

Paizo has created at least one fungal race, though an evil one if I recall, and a bit strong for a PC.

You're right, it is a bit different, where a bit means only a little.

Every 10 minutes it takes 6 seconds to bring up your gate, put on the armor, and shut down your gate. 1-action each step. The armor does not disappear when the gate's down. And yes, there might be social pressures not to open gates or wear elemental armor, just like there might be against casting spells in public or wearing plate mail. But there's no metaphysical or mechanical pressure at all. How much social pressure there is and its effects are not the territory of errata, but keep in mind that there are PCs that look like demons, genies, and robots; often bristling with weapons, encased in spiked full plate, and glowing with energy. I fought alongside a Large minotaur a.k.a. monster the other week, an automaton a week or so before that, and an enemy-eating dino-lizardman most every session. Heck, one of our bosses was an undead and we recruited a ghoulish gal to join Pathfinder Society. I think to actually broach social norms on Golarion takes harming another or visiting isolated/repressed communities.

When the rules are so clear, I feel RAI is also clear: of course you can wear your armor. And the GMs free to have that effect NPC responses. Paizo will not be clarifying this, at least not officially, as they actively avoid such specificity so that GMs have breathing room for their own interpretations...and the rules are clear enough.

They last 10 minutes and take only 1 action to restore so should constantly be active when the party is in danger. Whether or not PCs are armored up in society depends on that society, the table's paranoia, and such, but it's completely allowed. Where it's socially acceptable to have one's gate open, it's acceptable to renew one's armor.

Which is to say, there's absolutely no strain to keeping one's gate active or renewing one's armor. In the same way that heavily armed and armored PCs traipse around w/ little comment, bows strung and crossbows loaded, often with active magic glowing, so too can Kineticists.

A set of Cantrips can target Weaknesses more often than a set of weapons (which in turn require multiple Runes or Doubling Rings, etc if swapping). Targeting a Weakness can be a significant damage boost. Plus Cantrips work at range, so we should be comparing them to ranged weapons (albeit vs. two actions so two Strikes and w/ shorter range increments). And for most Cantrips, one can have full hands, so Seed Pods. Cantrips are best compared to Leshy Seed Pods. :-)

Which is to say that comparison gets quite complex.

Still not seeing a need for more. A want, yes, and I do think there's space for expansion. Thing is, I do expect more Cantrips as much as I do other spells. I don't expect them to become more powerful, or even more useful w/ combat numbers, only offer broader utility & flavor.

The thousands of L items becoming N items isn't handwaved away when the rules say the GM might step in to keep it from going overboard. Which suggests yep, another gap in the system. How many is too many? Who knows. Why 100 little bags of coins rather than a chestful? Golarion physics. Same reason short swords are the choice weapon for guerrilla forces, they're nearly 10x easier to distribute than long swords or rapiers. This extra ease includes stuff like hiding them too despite being quite similar in actual weight.

Bulk just isn't helpful beyond personal equipment (where it sounds like many ignore it anyway!). I do appreciate how the Str & Dex bonuses balance out re: wearing armor and how it interacts with Bulk (essentially the extra Bulk you can carry translates to better AC). But it extrapolates so poorly, and so immediately. Good thing it comes up so little that one can wing it when it does.

Eberron's continents & cities have enough diversity that most every PFS scenario can land in one if not several of them. And one can swap out nations and organizations pretty easily IMO. You could even invent a pseudo-Pathfinder Society, a concept which should integrate well into Eberron's vibe(s). I suppose it'd more be of which scenarios to avoid, but even then you could port in the Starstone or Eye of Abendego into some remote area and call it good.

What you might need to do is add Eberron species/Ancestries/factions/etc. into the backdrop, maybe convert one disenfranchised group for another or bird-man, ancient builder civilization, etc., w/o actually needing to swap stats.

Warpriest of nethys, multiclass wizard. When your poor damage output inevitably gets you beat up, you can survive it, and when you run out of spells at least you can bonk with your staff.

This. Minus the staff bonking, instead casting Heal from your font. The hit points, AC, & Shield Block make you durable for those many times you're doing little...because you're built around a spell that's made for killing hard-shell bosses, not meat-sack peons. It's also a spell that begs for 3 actions, tying you up when pressed. You'll want to contribute then too.

Which is to say if you go "Pure Force Barrage!", you'll be unhelpful and a lot of your low-level spell slots will waste actions. Thus I'd recommend Bard MCD. Pour out the Force Barrages vs. the hard-shell opposition while using a Composition, move to flank, Raise Shield, maybe Demoralize, and definitely Heal during other combats. Low-level Soothe is also good for the Will save bonus. Uplifting Overture will help your PC contribute vs. all skill-based obstacles. You'll also qualify for Sorcerer to get the damage bonus (maybe via 9th level & 10th level feats), maybe even Champion simply for the Reaction. Use your even-level Rank Cleric slots for support, Reactions, spare Heals, and buffs, etc. (Assuming you have modest Wisdom or a hard self-ban on using non-Force Barrage attacks.)

A PC w/ buffing Compositions, aid for all skills, and a Healing Font? Every party will appreciate that. Then when you face a high-AC BBEG, a vicious Swarm, or Incorporeal creatures and your PC does about half the damage because their Force Barrages bypass those high defenses & Resistances, they'll love you. That's where I see you getting the most mileage out of a Force Barrage focus. And as tempting as it is to get Wizard for the mini-Force Barrage Focus spell, it kinda doesn't pay off. Do get some Focus spell(s), but that one's kinda for spare actions at best.

That'd be funny if somebody took Craft & Quick Repair so they didn't have to be so proficient in Thievery.

Do we?
I'm unsure you've made your case. I have gotten a lot of mileage out of Cantrips, even several non-combat ones, and when I have fewer (like via MCD or Ancestry abilities) or am locked into a set, I'm hard pressed to choose since so many have advantages dependent on the circumstances. A few, like Daze or Puff of Poison, sadden me, but I doubt Paizo's going to make "Daze, but better". I also doubt buffs will get better than Guidance (not that I take it, but it's popular with my peers).

And, what do you desire that leads to you to imply spell lists need "really amazing cantrips" that sell them? While most (maybe all?) Cantrips feature on multiple lists, there are definite differences in lists already.

Sorites Paradox...the one that asks when does a heap of grain cease being a heap as you remove one grain at a time...is not a paradox on Golarion. They likely have quite rigorous vocabulary re: heaps & weights, etc. because residents know exactly when removing one coin alters a pile of coins. They likely would've made 10 coins weight one L because of the simplicity given that's how physics operates. That's a knock against Bulk, not against Golarions that make use of that difference or PCs' player puppeteers. Any encumbrance system will have demarcations like this, as nobody wants a system so granular that there's a spectrum of encumbrance states. But I think Bulk swung too far the other direction. Unlike with weight, I can hardly use my intuition to adjudicate using Bulk. It's simpler to ignore Bulk entirely re: moving a statue, etc., especially with fantasy creatures & superhuman PCs.

In PF1 I had a pig familiar, if only because it could carry the staff that'd push my feeble old PC in plate armor over the encumbrance limit. And he'd often need to drop other gear. Piggy had its own backpack too (and became the mascot of the team in the eyes of the city). So yeah, weight encouraged workarounds too, but Bulk exacerbates that if anything.

Another option for pivotal plot points is PCs spend a Hero Point, not simply to reroll, but to bypass the obstacle. Yes, it's meta, but the GM (and maybe the players) likely recognize the meta of that chokepoint anyway. There'd be table variation on Hero Point distribution, etc., and it might have to remain homebrew, but not that I think about it, I'd likely pause a session if approaching a chokepoint w/o enough Hero Points around to help alleviate poor rolling. I see that as a flaw in chokepoints of course, but some seem inevitable. Hmm.

Problem is the game doesn't provide Bulk stats for everything, not even setpieces or debris one might expect to interact with. Nor does it provide a system to extrapolate what Bulk might be. It's certainly not a straightforward, arithmetical scale, almost like reverse exponential (i.e. 4x the size & weight might be 2x the Bulk). And this on top of how 9L vs. 10L leads to some absurdities. So sure, Bulk smooths out kitting out a PC, yay, but beyond that, like when interacting with one's environment or picking up one's allies, its flaws exacerbate issues when trying to determine results.

Of course many GMs/tables sideline weight issues, and ignoring weight & encumbrance as too much labor seems the purpose of Bulk so it's simple enough that people use it. And there's Athletics for feats of strength which contorts matters further. It's all so abstract it's practically not a system, which might be for the better, depending on one's style of play.

Rise of the Runelords climaxes at the Pinnacle of Avarice (mostly), and yes, it's a "nice place to adventure in" if you enjoy all out war and the GM utilizes all the resources and reinforcements with the adversaries responding with tactical retreats, ambushes, etc. Quite dynamic, and built for veteran players. Double points if you challenge it without accumulating all the macguffins earlier in the AP that help conquer it.

I don't know which AP or whatnot leads to the Spire of Nex. I don't know what to make of a mile-high building. Even if it only has a floor every 100', that's...a bit much. Seems impossible to defend from highest-level penetration w/o a contrived amount of gold/etc. And then there's toppling.

As an aside I wouldn't mind if some hard tasks were auto-success if the PC has the proficiency, i.e. Expert in Thievery can automatically open this lock (in a 3rd-4th level scenario where being Expert is quite significant). Then Master from 7th-8th, maybe even 10th or 12th since generic PCs still only have two Master skills. Same for decoding religious or arcane text, gaining entry into a ball, etc. I don't mean as a default rule, but when poor rolling means too little or perhaps too much. I get the feeling a lot of the multiple-success challenges intend to weed out dabblers, but it'll also favor the lucky and punish the unlucky in rather dull ways...unless of course the dev has created something special or the GM can adapt. Again, a side thought, a possible tool in the kit.

ETA: I have seen this with Trained Proficiency in PFS, where anybody Trained can simply do X without problem. Unsure/forget how plot relevant those instances had been.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

I want the same thing I want out of every Lost Omens book: a definitive map.

Yes, detailed maps are ALWAYS appreciated!

There's hardly a definitive (or detailed) map for much of Golarion's surface, and that's decades in. Even established regions w/ multiple APs retain mysterious zones, not to mention all the border-shifting occurring in this dynamic world. I also wouldn't want Paizo to exhaust possibilities by delineating this even larger territory nor to set aside the project thinking they have to. The Darklands could fill up its own sub-RPG line of products (and if the market/PFS participation allowed for it, that'd be cool).

I think The Darklands could titillate us with more than a few "Here be dragons" (abominations, terrors, Cthulhu) vaults, though that said, it'd be nice to have clarity on where the uppermost layer does connect (even if future connections might be discovered or dug).

Fall forward might mislead folks. Maybe "fall with momentum" as in keep the plot moving, but due to failure maybe not in the direction PCs had intended/desired. I've seen both, where PC agency hardly matters (looking at you classic Deadlands modules!) or others where PCs get rerouted or difficulties ensue. Effectively the challenge worsened, but if the party didn't invest in the abilities to bypass the obstacle, then one would think they'd have invested elsewhere, like combat.

There's a tension here. I recall one PC who'd invested a ridiculous amount into thief skills, so when he finally found a trapped/locked door in the Runelord's lair, the player was ecstatic. Yay! Except what if no PC had invested so? If there's a generic alternative, would his investment have been warranted? How many alternatives can there be before the obstacle loses its distinctiveness (or in this case purpose, since a Runelord should've accounted for capable intruders!). Hard to write for that. And how low does the hurdle go, how many failure tangents before seeing it's just a poorly made party who can't tackle obstacles competently? I want APs to require competence, less so for modules, and hold my hand for Beginner Box material. Except we learned in the PF2 playtest that many players get insulted by "easy mode" even when that's exactly what they're asking for.

Which is to say, specialists love basking in their limelight, yet table time and party randomness make that difficult to write for. Plus of course poor rolling, or even lucky rolling which has twisted at least two of my plots. But since they were mine I could adjust in ways that published material would have difficulty doing. GMs who rely on APs to do most of the labor, often due to real life time constraints, kinda need flexibility built into the APs. This might include variant obstacles to use or discard to fit the context, even on the main plot path.

Fleeing only dicates what you do on your turn. It doesn't prevent you from using Reactions against the source of the Fleeing. It probably should block at least Hostile Reactions, like using Stand Still to keep it in place.

No.

Tridus: Fundamentally: If a player is rolling a check to do something to advance the plot, the result should not be "nothing happens, try again."

Completely agree, and so does Jacobs who's said that if there aren't stakes and the PCs can simply try until they succeed then just let them succeed and move on, i.e. climbing over a wall when nothing's pressuring them. So at least a major voice at Paizo agrees, though yeah, Paizo's an ensemble. Maybe they need tighter editing? Perhaps they could draw out the adventure like a flow chart so they could detect bottlenecks, dead ends, and so forth (and whether the party has earned its loss/setback/etc.)?

ETA: Heck, maybe Paizo could include flow charts so the GM can more easily visualize the story's flow, see where their particular party might have issues so they can prep & adjust beforehand.

Sounds more like a bottleneck or choke point, where there should be multiple paths to success or ways to contribute. Though yeah, SoT rituals came up in another thread where despite being magical students the rituals are at-level thus difficult for the party. Yet necessary, thus boring as one waits to bypass them. I've seen the same thing when the hacker needs to play their sub-game in a cyber RPG, or a thief needs to go thievin', or even when a face gets schmoozing and the ornery PCs need to hush up. (Whether they should or do or whatnot is it's own issue.)

It's really tough to keep the spotlight broad and inclusive when players operate as part of a party. The designer makes a series of interesting, thematic obstacles that (would) tell an intriguing story and maybe the party can't tackle some of those. Oh, my, how does one compensate for that? Paizo long ago advocated for including multiple paths so they've been including them fairly consistently (a principle those SoT rituals explicitly defy!) So now the developer has to develop alternate solutions for even straightforward obstacles? A lot of PFS2 scenarios do this, what with the many skill challenges, yet still there will be idle players with their perhaps too plain or too exotic PCs missing those secondary skills & abilities too. So PFS2 stresses alternate solutions & creativity, yet still some players falter. Oy, how much more can one do on the dev side even with GM support?

So there are multiple factors: how many paths? how long will the spotlight focus on fewer PCs? Is the party/specific PC well-rounded or did they hamstring themselves from the start, lacking key "fantasy hero/A-Team" skills? Moreover did session zero prepare the players, put them in the right mindset when building?

Heck, I had a session zero (different RPG) where players were told to make PCs who could do X and had at least one way to contribute to social encounters. One guy (the former GM at that!), made his ideal PC for that game...except he couldn't help with X at all. And most of the players invested in the ability to insult others as their social aspect...so one player did most of that labor until the others could invest into more civility. I had a faux "interview for the job" session 0.5, where I nearly said (and maybe should've said) "not hired" for the former GM's PC.

Which is to ask, how many PCs end up just being bodyguards? How does one write complex stories suitable for commando units and Leverage con artists, as well as the A-Team? I do like that PFS2 has lots of repeatable scenarios that stress a breadth of skills so players can see that maybe they'll need to rebuild their 1st level PCs.

At first I was hesitant when PFS changed its chase scenes from individual to party-level, but OMG I was delighted after seeing how much more smoothly chases went when nobody lagged and we could use the breadth of the party's abilities to bypass specific hurdles our own PC might struggle with.

But still there will be snags. Maybe nobody thought to focus on Thievery in the forest AP. Maybe there's too much Survival and not enough Arcana. I'm unsure how much can be shouldered by devs (again stressing that those rituals count as a mistake IMO). Even with GM help, the party might just suck, as terrible as it can be to judge. How far can one go with neutering obstacles before they're no longer obstacles, just plot points one observes? How many paths & options before it's too difficult to tell a linear story without railroading? And so forth.

Which is all to say, the burden's on all three; devs, GMs, & players, who hopefully can find synergy during session zero. And it takes some finesse to navigate toward fail forward, yet away from neutering the threat of actual failure.

I suggested Staff Acrobat (esp. for PFS which disallows it) should be integrated into Daredevil. Staves & polearms feel quite appropriate for someone balancing. I would likely go with a Trip polearm build (but only if forced to play a Daredevil in the first place). The trouble IMO is that a Fighter (if they bounce around a lot, maybe w/ Mobility from Rogue MCD & some Leap feats), can replicate much of Daredevil's vibe, yet damage enemies in a much more straightforward fashion (w/ better AC & hit points to boot). Swashbuckler too.

I'd vote Devastating Weaponry or Engine of Destruction (both Inventor 18th), at least once high enough level. But yeah, I agree Freewheeling Strike beats Whirlwind though it's on a Daredevil, and they're not getting much of boost to Strike and have little two-handed-weapon support. If you apply the same level of party support to a Barbarian or Fighter, they too will blossom into (even more of) a powerhouse. That's without taking the correct feats to contend, which seems a failure of the class if one needs to take them or fall behind what's inherent in other classes.

Weren't ecological systems built into the vaults? So who knows what kinds of oddities the designers had concocted before evolution and residents and magical emanations twisted and blended those foundations. I imagine more than a few portals to outside resources, namely the planes of air and water alongside volcanic ones to the planes of fire and earth. This leading to wondering what's lost in response and how?

Yes, a lot of Daredevil actions look really cool, cinematic even. Unfortunately they're hollow. Last night played alongside a fine Daredevil under a generous GM with a dockside setting full of ropes leading to lots of awesome attempts adding to...nothing. I'm unsure he had any mechanical effect at all other than as a target (w/ fine AC thankfully). Of course for that severity it took some bad rolling, but building up to Press actions took its toll too. To clarify, that was in combat. During a long chase challenge the DD contributed as much as anyone. Given the look on his face when reviewing his DD's results, pretty sure the player's going to rebuild (PFS). His past successes had relied on great rolling, which might have been Risk/Reward appropriate, but it'd only made him functional.

Do we want it written from the POV of the citizens, much like more current books such as for Mwangi & Tian Xia? I'd like some of that, maybe at the top levels w/ sociable races, but not for the more hellish, aberrant levels where shining a light too bright spoils the mystery. How then to illuminate those while retaining the sense of dread & dark depths? Hmm.

Castilliano wrote:

Just remember to refresh before initiative, as once you're in it's too late.

In water you mean, not in combat? Otherwise it's just one action.

Yes, but also before a creature has a chance to swallow you (et al) since the spell doesn't provide the air. Being a Cantrip (w/ a fairly long duration at that), I'd think most GMs would allow it to be constantly running (at least while in hazardous territory). And generally my PCs need all their actions. :-)

Arcane and Primal casters can solve the air problem using Deep Breath

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1315
"you lose only 10 minutes of breath if you speak" (including to Cast a Spell)

After being in a bog mummys aura as a Magus i try to get it on all my casters.

My PC used that Cantrip extensively at the docks last night. She never ended up falling off the pier, but it felt good knowing that drowning was a minor risk. Plus she could have helped rescue her friend who had a tough fight underwater, though thankfully that'd been unnecessary. Just remember to refresh before initiative, as once you're in it's too late.

One thing to factor in is that the Darklands are more like another planet than a single region so the first question is focus; how granular would one like it? Would it be sweeping like a world guide or do deep dives on specific hotspots that interact more with the surface? Maybe have several seeds for story arcs within? I'd like something in-between, providing "country" stats for many Vaults while zeroing in on several cities too. Not sure how much space I'd want for monsters, since I LOVE Darklands monsters, but the book's likely the only place for all the other material. And then there's the question of how much player-material to include. It kinda needs some Archetypes and Darklands-feats, but how relevant would it be to normal campaigns? As opposed to Tian Xia & Mwangi material which integrates well being a ship away, do we want a plethora of PCs-from-the-Darklands? Seems it'd kill the wonder & dread that differentiate the Darklands. (Consider Drizzt's impact on the Drow, mostly negative IMO despite Salvatore's excellent depiction of Drow atrocities. Neutered the Drow with their resultant frequency.)

One quaint desire, although I'm being serious, would be a map akin to the ones after Module G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King. It had the party's expected routes with strange symbols hinting at what dwelt within, as well as a maze of trade routes and side caverns plus that huge sea. Quite simple, yet it sparked so much wonder as to the possible creatures and cultures that might fill those gaps. And the Darklands holds such vaster Vaults and space for alien cultures.

I'd also like material akin to Dungeonscape (3.X), how it provided a vibe beyond routine exploration, made dungeons spooky again.

Though you will kill it faster.

You don't need to sell us on it James :P We already said we wanted it!

I hadn't wanted it, having heard of some of the deep problems JJ's listed. Of course, knowing he knows and will correct them...now I want it. :-)

It still has to vie with competing AP ideas, so I'm unsure where I'd rank it. Paizo keeps surprising me, and I want that too, which Second Darkness would have difficulty doing.

OMG, Nuremberg Trials in an AP?? (if only a portion or epilogue)
That'd be wild, though I'd imagine most parties would work as assistants, investigators, and bodyguards more than lawyers (if only because one can't count on a legal scholar PC in every party). It could work, with stakes rising as Hell itself wants a say (and its toll in souls).

Castilliano wrote:

So Earth laws? Earth norms? And a bit modern at that.

Yeah, it's not like there's a sizable body of men from Earth who fought in World War I and the Russian Civil War (the latter especially a notorious font of war crimes and propaganda about same) on Golarion.

I'm not seeing much of a vector from Irrisen to much of anywhere, even if those refugees were so savvy, forthright, and well-regarded. It'd be an interesting thread to weave. Perhaps our concept of war crimes spreading via an influential Earthling diplomat or courtier having the ear of the queen who in turn encourages these diplomatic concepts Golarion-wide. Not that I'd think Russia would be a reliable source, nor random soldiers on the front, but it'd only take one voice if Paizo desired to explore that path. More likely some Taldane philosopher might have spread such concepts (much like the Napoleonic Code was spread), with the remnants of the empire retaining the vestiges of these crimes so horrendous even war doesn't validate them. Written in Taldane/Common, those books might have become a standard learning tool for higher ed & language skills.

Mind you, whether Earth-like or not I think atrocities would remain atrocious, sparking outrage & reprisal (internally & externally). But some of the details, i.e. spy garb, the roles of mercenaries, and when/where one has to present flags/identification, those feel quite particular to Earth, and only a portion of it at that. Which is to ask, how does Golarion view the PCs & other motley bands of experts? In other RPG worlds they're kinda codified, their own subculture, though I haven't gotten that vibe from Golarion. "Rival adventuring parties" seem rare unless tied to particular interests like the Aspis Consortium, cults, and the like, or a band of kinda vanilla martials backed with some spellcasters.

So Earth laws? Earth norms? And a bit modern at that. It's better than nothing, but do we have anything from Golarion/Paizo? What standards are devs using? Is there even univocality among them? Is the lack why we're seeing what some think are discrepancies?

With Golarion individuals able to unleash the power of armies, how might that alter norms? A high-level officer isn't simply social capital, perhaps useful for barter; they're a significant hazard to contain...or invaluable to corrupt what with all of Golarion's options. For top-tier, killing won't be the best option, as that allows resurrection. And then there are teleportation raids & rescues, etc. Heck, I would worry less about the saboteur that needs a disguise than the brazen one that flies in and teleports out. And are clone backups still around?

And then does Cheliax care about anybody else's views? Andoran might to various degrees, but how do they hold individuals accountable? Under what grounds if not Andoran citizens? Is it back to "might is right" and "possession (of you) is 9/10 of the law"?

So yeah, here we are noting how fuzzy the boundaries on slavery can be while our interpretation of war crimes (if we even can delineate that with rigor) may not be crimes on Golarion. Or they might fight fiercer against such inhumanity.

People are tossing around the word "unlawful" a bunch, leading me to wonder whose law they're talking about? UN & Geneva Conventions? For example, on Golarion does a soldier caught fighting/spying out of uniform receive worse repercussions than a soldier caught in uniform? Does the treatment of POWs have a civil norm? Who could possibly hold others accountable? Or maybe deities have a say? With the primary god of war dead, maybe whatever semblance of civility has evaporated (though being chaotic himself, maybe the opposite!).

A bit of a side tangent, but how aren't the inventor or daredevil skill classes when both revolve entirely around skills (Crafting in the case of inventor, Athletics or Acrobatics in the case of daredevil)? Gunslinger is in a weird spot, because all ways revolve around skills, though I wouldn't consider it a skill class personally. However, I do agree with most of points you make here. Daredevil is weak yet really interesting, while the slayer feels like class bloat.

I translated it more as skill->broad utility, though I wouldn't place a non-Tome Thaumaturge in that group, but it does have lots of utility. Despite awkward premises, I think the point stands; 8 hit point classes come with a lot of utility, either through skills or spells, with the possible exceptions of Gunslinger and Inventor. While I'm skeptical, players often praise the Gunslinger as a dominant force in their parties, for non-combat too. And I think an Inventor, with its Int & feats choices, can provide more utility than many martials.

In other words, Daredevil has to up its game, and broaden it too. Many classes contend with it re: maneuvers & skirmishing, and DD doesn't provide the skills/spells/utility/durability to warrant inclusion in a party like those classes do.

Yeah, the Vigorous Adrenaline 10 > Fortify Self 12 puzzles me since it's kinda glaring. (Also compare to Martial Artist's Adamantine Body 8 for 2 + 1/2 your level Resistance All, albeit vs. one attack, yet as a Reaction.)

And I'd imagined/hoped feats like Hit or Miss would be DD's normal routine for Strikes. Level 10 is too deep in. (And I can't help mentioning again that it's a horrible name when there's no "miss" option, it's more "Hit or Get Hit".)

Likely there will be high-level caster support providing either True Target (for Risky Overextension) or Heightened Haste (to position for Storm of Debris), strengthening both of those feats a lot.

Hopefully by 16th the player understands what their GM (or pool of GMs) thinks about debris for Breakaway Attack, though yeah, what exactly is that answer going to be? Debris is common, yet so is cleanliness or even void. How much debris can one bring along? Quite a lot by late game, but wouldn't that be odd to do? (Not that I wouldn't, building some Oscar the Grouch pack rat all along simply for this late game blossoming.) I hope Paizo encourages narrative leniency for this and Props.

Aura of Faith - Champion feat (Player Core 2, pg 97-98)

I'm back with some busted champion flavour text! This one is a victim of the great remastering.

Aura of Faith wrote:

You radiate an aura of belief that imbues your attacks and those of nearby allies with divine power. Each willing ally in your champion’s aura adds the holy trait to their Strikes if you’re holy or adds the unholy trait to their Strikes if you’re unholy.

With the remaster, this feat no longer adds anything to your attacks, only your allies, and you are not your own ally.

The currently-granted benefit is unnecessary as the champion would already have it, but the flavour text is still funky because of the change.

It'd be more funky if it were redundant, perhaps confusing even, as people wondered why a Holy Champion would need to be mentioned getting Holy Strikes.

Castilliano wrote:

Paizo also encourages tables to go as gray and gritty as the players enjoy or go full rainbow Ponyfinder if desired.

Last I checked (TBF, it's been a hot minute), Ponyfinder was still using the OGL. Have they done anything using Remastered 2E under the ORC yet?

I have no clue about a Remaster or whether OGL even impacts it much. I only know of its existence on the lighter end of PF2's breadth.

ETA: I should say PF's breadth, as I couldn't have told you which edition they first or last came out during. Pretty art though. :-)