Castilliano's page

Any bonuses to damage would have to be offset by penalties so the net result remains the same, such is the tight balance of PF2's numbers.

A proportion of damage is random/dice and the rest is static/bonuses. PF2 is a bit more consistent there than PF1 where weapon dice via size & energy damage (often Holy) were about the only ways to increase the random portion. I remember being stunned that weapon dice increase in PF2, "That's so much!", but this was alongside "DR from a shield!" so there was a legit tension in one's weapon choices (later noticing the importance of free hands & how some feats/equipment that made that valuable).

So while having the net result end up the same seems feeble to me, it's better than trying to increase the dice via size without an offsetting bonus to other choices. And I'm saying this as someone who loved piling up my weapon dice in PF1. And introducing bonuses to alternate options is too much of an overhaul! (Never mind its rippling effects on everything else.)

So while size matters psychologically, even narratively, it shouldn't matter mechanically; too late for that. PF2's parts are too tuned for one cog to swell in importance. Yes, there can be a disconnect looking at a giant's 1d4 dagger next to a Halfling's 1d12 greatsword, but in play much of that washes away, i.e. giant's seldom use daggers and a Halfling with a greatsword will typically be an astounding anomaly much like those thin anime heroes stronger than beefy brawlers. Then there's how hit points are only partially physical anyway, much of it being plot armor and/or preternatural ability, which implies increases in damage might have similar elements beyond the weight of one's weapon.

"Edit: let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item."
-gesalt

I'd buy that item, and (if it weren't so high a level item) would use it more than 50 times because I'd spam it pre-combat at most doors. :-)

Saying it's better than most real printed items highlights the problem rather than supports allowing the bulk purchase. IMO this goes back more to the Potion Patch though, one of those Treasure Vault items that should've been caught in editing and made Uncommon if unchanged (if only for the same reasons as Gloves of Storing/Retrieval Belts).

Look at Propulsive Boots, 3,000 g.p. for 1/day! Level 13, no Strikes, & Invested too (even though yes, it does have a mediocre speed boost). That's the baseline to measure against.

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As for availability, the potions being 9th level is akin to saying that several US states don't carry the item, many more just in their largest city, but in New York or L.A. you can find it...in whatever quantity you want? These are elite items made by a limited tier of craftspeople. High demand would worsen supply issues because suppliers can't just hire a guy, not even train someone in-house to that level. And most APs/home campaigns operate in limited time frames, many taking PCs to cities they haven't visited/set up business relations in.

Sure, maybe that's too granular when Paizo made a point of simplifying buying, but GMs do have to consider verisimilitude otherwise PCs could build insta-armies with their gold. (Lord knows a bunch of low-level individuals armed with splash weapons can obliterate many Troops).

To clarify, I'm not against the ideas to overcome the issues, most of which would work in a higher-level world (i.e. Forgotten Realms w/ its hordes of archmagi), but I think it's unfeasible in most situations. And given the undue impact mechanically, not worth allowing anyway.
(Heck, I'm now of a mind to automatically make Treasure Vault items Uncommon with how many similar instances there have been.)

Yeah, "3rd action should be Strike" (for a melee build) presupposes the Commander's in position, has built & equipped for it, and lacks enough allies to make a 1-action Tactic worthwhile. I'd say it also relies on using a two-handed weapon since they lack a damage boost. All of that, then sure, one should Strike/round. But the odds of payoff + opportunity cost don't feel worth the investment, and that's not counting the competing 3rd actions available (IF one doesn't already have to move for one's Banner to work), i.e. Bon Mot as Claxon mentioned or commanding one's animal or others from the class feats. If I did end up in the thick of things I'd rather Raise a Shield or Aid or maybe Battle Medicine.

A ranged build is more feasible, though the damage remains mediocre. But hey, it's at range so it's consistent and fills an important niche in some terrains & battles. It trades out cashing in on Bulwark, but pure Dex is ultimately better anyway.

As for running out of Reactions to pass out, I think most martials would prefer a Stride + guaranteed Strike attempt over no Stride + possible Strike attempt. And one can give that bonus Reaction to any such exceptional PC.

While there are few reasons to have two hands free, there are many actions worth having a hand free. If one hand's already accounted for, then having one's Banner on a Free-Hand weapon in the other adds utility.

OrochiFuror, "natural weapon" is a PF1 designation that might lead to thinking an unarmed attack counts as a weapon in PF2. It doesn't, so you can't put your Banner on it (w/o GM permission of course).

Given how many people who dislike 4th do like PF2 or happily have switched over from PF1, you're in the minority, Cory. Maybe you make that comparison out of a similar sense of betrayal? I see you've GMed tons of PF1, so likely have such deep attachment that it's hard to shift over. Sorry about that, but I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by venting here other than spreading sorrow. I'd think there'd be Reddit threads about this where you might find similarly minded folk to gripe with. Maybe 3rd parties (with Paizo people even) still create 3.X/PF1 material (though PF2 should be easy to adapt, much easier than 4th would be).

I found 4th a major hiccup which discarded much of my accumulated DnD savvy, something I do not experience with PF2. Having DMed/GMed 100+ games of 3.X/PF1 I find PF2 superior to PF1 and a natural extrapolation of the game's origins when factoring in modern understanding of game theory. Some of that overlaps with choices made by 4th ed developers, but as Paizo's noted (maybe in this thread even), the changes in PF2 that resemble ones in 4th were developed before 4th existed. And oh my gosh PF2's higher levels are so, so much easier to balance, adapt, and run than PF1's (and 4th's balance was lopsided throughout). So yeah, have to disagree with you; I'm still loving Paizo's choices.

Good luck to you in finding a gaming home.

"There are lots of ways to justify nearly anything happening in a story."
-Claxon

This is the heart of any answer re: Golarion infrastructure, more so given how Paizo regards narrative as more the driver of the setting than vice-versa.

In the older policy re: submissions (which I'm unsure Paizo even accepts anymore, rather contracts out), Paizo gave PFS authors the freedom to introduce new concepts into Golarion lore...as long as the geographical impact was limited. So you could have a rural village with a unique deity with its own holiday, a lost valley with bizarre physiology/evolution, or on this topic, as backward or forward a sense of infrastructure as one needs for one's scenario in its distinct space.

Broad-scale infrastructure like postal systems and road networks would still be left to setting devs (who in turn might upgrade/downgrade infrastructure as suits a major project like an AP). But if a scenario required a unique dam built by a genius in the remote wilderness, that might be a marvel of Golarion tech surpassing Absalom's best (though perhaps not Numberia's unless set nearby). I imagine if said scenario involved the collapse or destruction of said infrastructure, all the better to explain why such ideas don't impact Golarion in the future (until desired). And then there all the Vaults underground where you could introduce continent-level infrastructure and have some authorities like in Numeria who contain their knowledge to themselves.

So Kineticist construction companies, dragon delivery, and...well, there's already steampunk and Wild West tech broadly available. Couple those with magical creatures and one can stretch pretty far, with little off the table (your group's table) if it suits y'all. It's a bit reminiscent of how superhero tech usually works, where earthshaking advancements shake only a manageable portion of the earth.

Writing this brought to mind dogfighting dragons with Gatling guns on their backs. Dunno why, they'd probably be better wielding them. :-)

Because of the elven immunity to dnd ghoul's paralysis, I always thought it was a nod to LotR where even the dwarf Gimli has terror paralysing him from entering the subterranean way guarded by undead, whereas the elf Legolas feels no such fright.

Maybe post-hoc, but originally that trait appeared in Chainmail, D&D's fantasy-war simulation predecessor. Elves were expensive, but were just as susceptible to ghoul paralysis which proved too big an Achilles heel for game balance so they made elves immune to ghoul paralysis. Since proto-D&D used Chainmail creatures on a smaller scale (I believe in a sewer even), the abilities carried over as part of the lore. (No citation available, but I believe it was from a printed interview.)

The ability says it's nourishing, so it does nourish no matter its duration, as long as you eat it before it's gone. And for water, you could just squeeze juices into your mouth. That should qualify even if one has to dedicate a certain percent of the produce to the water stat rather than the food stat. Obstacle overcome (for better or worse narratively).

And as noted before, this is what the Kineticist does. At worst they might get fatigued from ceaseless effort, but if augmenting some of the other resource successes of the party this obstacle simply isn't one. (I've seen it happen with other scenarios when the party simply had emphasized that type of threat, but it does come at the cost of not addressing other obstacles as thoroughly.)

Arguably Kineticists should've been Uncommon given how they can break so many scenarios (except they were already established in PF1). Even post-Kineticist scenarios have a hard time accounting for their endless resources so a GM should be alert to this possibility at session zero. Heck, in the infrastructure thread Kineticists pose a major X factor as to what's possible, being more impactful than labor & spell slots at least per Kineticist, so infrastructure questions depend on how many there are as much as most factors.

Lol, Rust Monsters.Who know what society might have achieved without them.

I think of them as underground dwellers, but yeah, if there was a long line of food/railway, it'd only take one (or gasp, a breeding couple) to derail the next car. Heck, sentient scavengers of many types might not even recognize a railway's purpose (much like happened in rural Japan w/ telegraphs and Eastern Europe w/ internet wiring!).
Pretty sure they're out of the spotlight, but still exist. I think only the Drow disappeared, but out of the spotlight does kinda mean they won't factor much in determining what's what & what's possible.

With Walls of Stone I wonder how viable stone railways might be, not so much on a regional scale, but local in a city, mine system, or port. Again the Kineticists would do even better here. They're so game-changing.

Overall it feels like most of these data are first impressions from a veteran player more than a guide. Thank you for adding quotes. :-)

Caveats should be the norm for most Tactics. This is the most party-dependent class there is (as you've noted). For Strike Hard, if you think it loses its oomph, then it could have different ratings by PC level because yeah, Demoralizing Charge dominates when it arrives. So I could see several ratings for each Tactic, one for PFS w/ zero party knowledge, one for when there's party synergy (both which you have, so yay!), and others if level/newly competing Tactics arise later. I'd likely add more, like noting which ones work well w/ Plant Banner's risks plus which have synergy with a melee vs. ranged vs. non-combatant Commander (which I prefer).

Also I'd reckon a Commander's Strikes about as valuable as the second/MAP attack of a dedicated martial given the class's opportunity costs (and the movement needed for melee is hardly worth the Tactics lost). If you agree, point that out to prospective players. A Commander focused on Strikes works better as an MCD Commander IMO.

The stats section feels shallow, maybe separate for different builds? Cover Int as primary vs. secondary cost/benefit. Weigh the stats vs. each other more, i.e. Wis has "definitely invest in this", but is ranked Green, decent. What's a reader to make of that, much less a new player?

Plant Banner is a game-changer, even if risky. I go into detail in a post many moons ago (and I seldom start a thread so it's easy to find if interested), but the primary tidbit is it's worth it even if you just Plant & pick up. The temp h.p. remain, even if they don't refresh.

I love the Commander's AC, but 5 stars? Must one really have a very good reason not to choose this? It's a major build commitment, takes a valuable action, and IMO requires some party support to cover a Commander's gaps, i.e. healing it.

With so many blues at 2nd level, there should be some guidance on how to pick from among them. You're just reiterating what they do & clapping.
Note that Tactical Expansion can be taken later to get extra high-level Tactics, like the few 1/day ones you can swap out.

Reactive Strike should only be blue for melee Commanders (which is obvious to us, but you're even saying Wizards should take it which is silly and might mislead a new player reading this).

Fortunate Blow IS game-changing, I agree, which should be mentioned in its prereqs (which alone are mediocre IMO) and in choosing one's overall build-type. I might put Confusing Commands in the same category, bad prereq, but game-changing feat; if playing into high levels it'd be a major reason I wouldn't ignore Int...if the prereq didn't interfere.

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Thanks for the effort, typing out so much is substantial labor.
I'd consider looking at how different Commander types change the rating of most Tactics & feats. The lack of guidance for players when they first approach this class surprises me; I think managing expectations matters a lot here as it's hard to balance all the things a Commander can do well w/ stats & action costs. Ex. if one carries a shield to become more durable in melee (yay) then they have less reason to be in melee (w/ no damage boosts they kinda need a bigger weapon).

I'd think a new player needs to review this with a purpose in mind. If they just went with the "best-rated" feats it'd be a mess. So an opening about the different builds would help.

Pure speculation...
It could also be that instead of writing two sets of stats authors can focus on one more precise set, and then use more PC adjustments. For example, for a 7-8 level scenario, 7th & 8th level PCs can play it straight as written whereas before the change it might be 6th-9th with two sets of enemy & obstacle stats. One set is easier to write, edit, GM prep, etc.
Then (with a big IF) 6th level PCs & 9th level PCs could play with an adjustment, so ultimately the adventure covers the same level ranges, but with emphasis on the middle levels. Unlike a 6th-9th level scenario, these would be awkward for an all 6th or all 9th, which might already be a problem Paizo thinks they're fixing.

So instead of the scenario's trying to fit in a range of PCs (and perhaps losing some precision for some of that range/one of those tracks), it's the PCs that are adjusted to fit in the scenarios. Which yes, is done already with mismatched parties so it's not a foreign concept.

I'm reminded of the earliest PFS1 scenarios with extreme level ranges, and it made all the difference in the world whether Lord so&so was at fireball levels or not, making for quite different table experiences and NPC tactics. "Don't play adventure X at high level" was an occasional warning. With level differences mattering more in PF2, maybe this further tightening is necessary for finer tuning and more effective writing & balance.

As mentioned, just spitballing.

A Master in Survival w/ Forager can feed 16 people per Subsist. In a forest or jungle with an easy DC, one could take the -5 to do it in 8 hours (and maybe hire extra help too, noting that these people would likely be needed as handlers & bodyguards anyway). And as Mathmuse mentioned, even paying for its food would pay for itself if crossing mountains as well as other treacherous terrain. It'll bypass earthbound monsters and deter most airborne ones who'd likely prefer to attack that team of oxen over there stuck in the swamp. :-)

The harder part IMO is getting a Roc, though in other campaign worlds they have been for sale, at least as eggs or fledglings. Don't know their lifespan. Probably quite long based on size (and longer w/ magical healing and curing).

Looked up Create Food and boy does that change the math! It implies a Gargantuan creature eats 1000x as much food, so one might settle for a Huge creature at 100x as much. But standard feed x1000 is only 10 g.p./week which is affordable (and that's the cost of 20 pigs or 5 horses/week so it's not a loophole IMO).

A Druid might offer these services, keeping that many more people from disturbing nature.

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I'm reminded of one troublesome AP re: trade routes, Jade Regent, where I've heard the amount of gold earned was in no way commensurate with the costs. That raises questions, as do many economic issues if examined with too much rigor. We don't want trade to be lucrative enough to impact PC wealth curves, but then again we often want PC-level people/threats/allies involved in trade scenarios. Hmm.

Did I miss the point that flying would be expensive and involve smaller items when I explicitly wrote that flying would be expensive and involve only key items plus mentioned their major difference would be in rougher terrain? Hmm.

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Maybe Golarion has such large stretches of wilderness even after thousands of years of civilization because it's so difficult to establish trade routes. Magical cataclysms don't help.

Reminds me of a PFS1 scenario with beetles that could destroy any local merchant and challenge the strongest village factions. But the beetles were incidental, just normal fauna (though an excuse for PCs to rescue an info source, with a good chance of failure). Saving villages is a common enough PF/RPG theme, which would suggest a reason trade routes struggle; they're even harder to defend than a village (plus intrude in areas other creatures might call their own).

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What's the infrastructure like for undersea empires? Mainly, what interactions with surface dwellers would naturally occur? Absalom interacts somewhat, but I'd think with seas being so important to trade that there'd be much more commerce, i.e. fish & underwater crops for forged items. And given that swim speeds are typically high (fittingly), I wonder how large the niche might be for aquatic couriers who'd be faster than horses and harder for land enemies to track and ambush, even if stuck to water routes.

That seems a setup for a scenario, PCs meeting/intercepting aquatic couriers.

I don’t think dragons would willingly perform mundane shipping tasks. Too proud.

Appeal to greed for stereotypical ones. But there are lots of dragon options other than the hoard-sitting proud ones. Just a few dragons would make an impact so look for exceptions.

Maybe appeal to their unique talents, how non-mundane their labor (truthfully) is. Maybe they're the ones who own the business, or it's for allies/higher goals, or maybe they're dumb/animalistic/controlled. Community-minded ones might see it as a way to contribute that's rather easy for them, yet bestows great benefit. Golarion has shied away from domesticated dragons, but it's feasible; and because you can reason with many it's maybe more so than the Rocs, mammoths, and dinosaurs which are available.

And dragons are just a handy example among the many large flying creatures out there. Not saying they'd be a given in any city, rather where they did show up they'd function much like helicopters.

In terms of cost-effectiveness to transport pretty much anything, the following methods haven't changed much in millennia (most cost-effective to least): ships (ocean or sea), boats (river or canal), roads (actual roads, not beaten down paths that are essentially wider trails), trails. Rail (if developed) is in between boats and roads, as it can carry heavier loads of cargo than roads can handle. Air transport is less cost effective than roads and some trails (although it's faster). Magical transport would be even faster than air, but likely more expensive (IMO, reserved for small, low bulk goods where speed and security are the most important considerations).

Of course, canals and roads are very expensive to build and maintain (as are rail systems).

On Earth.

-Golarion seas have aggressive megafauna and sapient inhabitants, so I'd move them a notch down. They're terrifying enough on Earth where we only imagined nearly all such creatures.
-Rivers and canals can be lined with Walls of Stone (at least at key junctures) and managed (along with locks) with water spells/Kineticists so maybe a notch above Earth depending on local fey & Druid opinions.
-Earth Kineticists make roadwork & repair simple, but even without them low-level casters can clear out obstructions and install drainage in quick bursts for tougher spots. And Disintegrate works better than dynamite on granite. These advantages over Earthlings would be amplified dealing with slopes and cliffs.
-Tunnels would be much more prevalent given how Burrow speeds work plus Dwarf and Kobold know-how. And there's Adamantine, though expensive it doesn't wear down (that I know of).
-I think Golarion lacks rail, but it has mechanical air transport on the wealthier end. Even a Strix or civilized Gargoyle makes a huge difference in rougher terrain for key items like medicine, components, messages, etc., but there are also dragons, tamed Rocs, and other critters that can carry heaps of goods for who knows what cost to feed and appease. Think Dinotopia.
-Bridges would be much more common IMO, if there aren't antagonists.

Kineticists skip so much engineering development, their population is a significant statistic re: infrastructure (see Korra, though I hadn't been thinking of that). And then there are genies, elementals, fey, and a list of other sapient creatures that can work magic all day, including Cantrip casters. Telekinetic Projectile light debris away. :-) Maybe magic schools lend out their students who can practice.

We don't want Golarion mapmakers to have mastered precision yet, mid-level adventurers need adventuresome tasks...some might even say paths to find.

I suspect the friction will go beyond the bad laws because it sounds like your party will be operating in enemy territory (and if inspired by an older version of Irrisen, definitely so). Champions of Justice don't do subterfuge & espionage well as that will often require breaking the good laws, standard ones for civilized societies like breaking and entering or theft. Unless it's just that the dungeons & enemies happen to be there rather than an adventure dealing with the government.

Tying it back to infrastructure, highest-level heroes (a squad of which pop up every year or so) would also bend infrastructure. Somebody's paying their wages when they Earn Income doing a Legendary task. But somebody has to protect against all those mid-teen level monsters preying on rural victims, neither of which have the treasure to be AP material. I find it odd how many monsters are described in a folksy way as if a village could stand up to them. Nope. So maybe it's the former AP PCs, perhaps downplaying their abiities?

I'm reminded of Marvel Comics where the god Ares (stronger than any construction equipment ever) was working construction or Damage Control swept in repair super-fight damage. Golarion would also have adapted to uber-beings. A high-level caster devoted to developing infrastructure could put in their hour and a half of work (counting morning prep) and have accomplished more than dozens of workers could do all week. And Kineticists, even lower-level ones could do the work of a corporation or major utilities building. I imagine governments (et al) would dedicate a lot to harnessing them somehow. Bidding wars would ensue, and assassination or abduction of rivals too. A lot of gold would be at stake, more if you get extradimensional interests involved.

Oh, my, now I'm imagining an extradimensional Wal-Mart which drives out local competition by undercutting them and dominating market share only to show their true unholy faces after there's no one else who can provide their goods and services. Or maybe drug suppliers or simply unique fads from other worlds. How well would Golarion markets & cultures compete with angelic creations? Hmm.

I imagine there'd be aqueducts and dikes made of Walls of Stone. D&D used to have more terrain-altering magic, and one would think there'd be a lot of high-level spells developed for non-adventurers, an unusual amount geared toward libraries and education. :-)
"This spell sends books."

Unless, like Planescape somewhat addressed, there were guilds and unions that opposed such methods (& centralization/consolidation too). They'd need their own high-level forces to exert any influence though.

The default is that creatures can perform Athletics maneuvers so the burden of proof is on you, Easl, to show where Eidelons can't.

You say "my reading", but what exactly are you reading? Advanced Weaponry implies no such thing as no hands or no maneuvers (no matter how bad Disarm is as an option). And the example shapes of most if not all Eidelons include options with hands or comparable limbs.

Yes, of course a Mist Stalker can perform the Trip action.

Yes, an Anger Phantom (an Eidelon) should be able to do all the maneuvers that any non-Eidelon Phantom can (barring being Incorporeal because that trait does state a rule barring that). And yes, an Anger Phantom can play piano w/ a Perform check, however badly.

Your examples make no sense. It's even worse in light of the fact players choose how many hands their Eidelons have and whether or not their unarmed attacks involve those hands or not.

All of those creatures you listed do have hands mechanically with which they can do maneuvers. Any generic creature form, even one that lacked any attack actions or limbs, could perform all of the maneuvers. But not Eidelons? For Familiars, Paizo had to explicitly state their limitations, but not for Eidelons? Animal & Construct Companions, even snakes or exotic ones w/ no hands, can perform maneuvers. But not Eidelons which are superior?
None of that makes sense.

Yes, there's a mediocre feat that uses perhaps overly inclusive language because there's no corresponding high-level feat yet for Disarm. This doesn't imply an unseen rule which would indicate Paizo devs lack of basic communication skills. It just makes Disarm a poor choice since you only get minimal benefit (but not zero benefit).

I think the whole of PF2 on this topic, other than that single feat, points at the conclusion that Eidelons can perform maneuvers just fine.

Well, an "army" might be five high level killers who can teleport together, such is the imbalance of power.

Sheer numbers and meat-waves matter less on Golarion (even with Troop rules) where a single warrior can routinely face a thousand veterans at once and come out healthy, perhaps unharmed after being topped up w/ a Heal spell or Medicine. As well as Earth's usual determiners of military might, Golarion adds magic, extraordinary creatures (often w/ AoEs), and level-advancement which IMO shift large-scale battles beyond recognition though for narrative purposes authors tend to stick to extra spicy Earth-like combats.

Sending out a nation's champion for single combat makes more sense there. They might represent a good portion of one's power, and you could skip the devastation of war itself. If one nation assassinated another's elite individuals, the end would seem inevitable (excluding outside or extraordinary factors).

Yes, you are being too restrictive. You're deciphering intent to fill a hole that doesn't need filling, and which would need explicit language in order to be a rule exclusive to Eidelons.

Using their unarmed weapons requires weapons traits to perform those maneuvers, yes, but Eidelons have limbs too (usually). They have two free hands* as normal and we would need notation if it were an exception. These limbs are not tertiary attacks that need to be listed much like no other creature in the game has their "limbs for maneuvers" listed. And no, even if one were to count it as listed, "fist" is not tied to performing maneuvers at all (hence fist not listing the maneuvers even though one's free hand can perform all of them). Heck, fist doesn't even require limbs.

So yes, Advanced Weaponry is mediocre, giving only a different magic item for one's bonus and a prereq for higher level feats (in a game which tries to avoid gating feats). I imagine a Remastered version will rectify this imbalance...somehow.

*As a mechanic not tied (much) to their form or actual number.

Even if the unarmed attack isn't a fist they still have two free hands, so yeah, other than using the "weapon" bonus/Handwraps instead of the bonus to Athletics, I don't think there is a reason in isolation. But some later feats do require a specific trait, i.e. Pushing Attack requires the Eidelon's attack has the Shove trait.

Finoan wrote:

Reminds me of the "'I' before 'e' except after 'c'" rule.

Unless the creature has the Mindless trait or is a Construct. Or is a homebrew creature or the GM has otherwise tweaked the stats of the creature.

Any GM who tweaks existing stats without informing his players that, that is something he might do from time to time during the course of play is not only cheating, but subverting the expectations of both the game and its players.

Citation needed.

Perpdepog wrote:

AceofMoxen wrote:

What happens when someone time-travels from lost omens to before Aroden's death? Do they create a zone of non-prophecy while they're in the past or do they become ruled by prophecy while in the past?

You'd have to ask Shyka or Yog-Sothoth about that.

Do you have their email?

Your keyboard would melt trying to type the symbols, if your mind hadn't already. Maybe tag them in a TikTok instead.

I love redacted. It's my favorite plot element. I see it everywhere!

If it were phrased "the target's Taunted" then range wouldn't matter, but instead it's saying you Taunt the target, which is you getting a free Taunt action which would be subject to normal limitations (and perks too). So you'd benefit from the Long-distance Taunt feat if using a ranged weapon.

And it's 2nd level, which makes it hard to argue it gives you both action compression and a potentially longer version of a 1st level feat.

Unconcious: "You can't act"

He's going from Wounded to Dead, not Wounded to Unconscious to Dead so it's a bit trickier than that. And it's "would die" so there's the vibe of interrupting, at which point the victim/spell target/(in this case caster too) wouldn't have died yet.

I'd assume one's already chosen the best damage & movement type and can only maintain that level unless the battlefield changes. So yeah, it's a horrible cost unless one gets h.p./round, and yes, there doesn't seem to be a consensus (not that I've noticed comments on it in months). For balance I'd allow it, and like with all adjudication it'd be provisional depending on how it plays out in practice.

I now desire to make a Tick-like Champion pointing his finger at an undead enemy, "You are the clogged artery slowly choking out the pulse of creation and I'm the exercise of justice!" (or whichever cause they have)

Zoken44 wrote:

Wow, that's an interesting point... you know what else there used to be a huge taboo about?

Wolves. Wolves were a shoot on sight animal for much of human history. But we know a lot more about them now and understand how important they are for their ecosystem.

Very good point that, with more knowledge, things can change. Maybe that is why Starfinder's view of undead significantly differs from the Pathfinder's one.

Poor wolf. At one time they were seen as defenders against undead, likely due to how they'd dig up corpses and be seen "fighting" with them. As often happens over time, that association eventually led to them being linked with undead as allies or incarnations* (which served the agendas of ranchers and others that wanted to be rid of them). Glad that now we recognize they're both normal and valuable.

Just shows how insidious fear can be, which ties back to necroethics; that even if known as a defender, one might become seen as a threat if linked to threatening beings so long.

*Werewolves, at least in Europe, were considered undead long, long ago. Just pitch everything into one pile of "bad juju creatures" I guess.

Golarion features humans and reflects the real world, even specific cultures, so Earth is relevant. Golarion is extrapolated from Earth, so barring a book on Golarion philosophy, we kinda need to extrapolate too.

Appeal to authority's only a fallacy when one's authority is merely a social position or one's scholarly work/authority lies outside the topic, i.e. quoting Einstein outside of physics. Until Nethys and similar deities develop an evidence-based consensus that disagrees with her (or you develop a way us players can investigate Golarion metaphysics), Pharasma IS the authority based on her actually knowing.
Yes, we as players might consider she's mistaken, but in world there's no reason to suspect that. She's as objective as one can get barring James Jacobs giving a definitive answer (unlikely until it serves a narrative purpose in some adventure).

I disagree that there "are a lot of (dangerous) things in Golarion that aren't treated with near this level of stigmatism". Undead (and the medical issues around corpses) are ubiquitous threats with emotional gravitas.

It doesn't matter that taboos are tribal or not always good when asking about ethics...which are tribal and not always good. Taboos & ethics are intertwined. There's no platonic form of ethics to unearth.

Most of the final questions should be obvious being as we're beings that operate emotionally and subjectively (even if we try otherwise). I have also pondered the question of sustenance, but I'm not sure that's where the heart of the stigma lies. Heck, on Golarion it might be that Void energy disturbs our natural Vitality energies with such pure ick that humans (et al) can't shake how immoral they feel undeath is. Again, we're talking ethics, where icky (according to scholars) is one of the key components in how we developed our morals (w/ flawed results!).

The Raven Black wrote:

Illusory Disguise

I didn't ask if it was possible, more if dragons would "sink so low as to disguise their true self" so to speak?

Yes. I designed such a dragon years ago. I believe it was a Blue Dragon (known for their cunning) though I've also considered Red/White for the obvious "Aha!" moment, but that ruse felt implausible at the scale of developing a reputation where PCs prep for them.

But yeah, pride could dissuade this tactic, so it'd probably only be the types that enjoy trickery that'd pursue this. I could imagine a desperate dragon attempting it or one trying to piggyback off the reputation of a missing dragon of a different type.

Now that fewer dragons have vast spell arsenals where you kinda need to pick some oddball spells so why not a ruse, I imagine it'd have to suit both their nature and circumstances to pull it off with any oomph (beyond some 1st round reveal).

I wonder if they could feign taking greater damage somehow? Then the "damage" disappears to the party's chagrin.

Just because taboos are usually irrational (and often harmful) doesn't mean they don't drive our ethics. You've been given the objective, taboo-free view (wrong due to cycle of souls). Now others are giving you the subjective one your necromancer is most likely to face: it's wrong due to tampering with ancestors, death, and corpses. Necromancy disturbs the sacred & profane, and dead bodies come with significant health risks (even if seldom reflected in the game's mechanics).

As I mentioned early on, different Golarion cultures will have different attitudes toward necromancy. It's pretty universal among humanity (even cannibals) to have taboos & rituals re: corpses (and ultimately for a good reason even if via poor reasoning). Except there are plenty of nonhuman Ancestries that might think differently. And as for calling upon souls and spirits, most Earth cultures embraced that (and some still do) even as they feared it too. So I'd imagine Golarion has similar ones your necromancer can be from where one calls upon the dead to protect from the other dead. As for Void energy, I doubt it's treated much different than other deadly energies like electricity except by scholars.

So there's a plethora of ethics re: necromancy, with no singular answer unless its Pharasma's that it's ultimately harmful to existence. But even then, if your PC's heroic, the balance might weigh toward pro-existence judging by the enemies you thwart, especially undead ones (& daemons).

Well, I had said veteran, not "average grunts". They wouldn't need encyclopedic knowledge, just the basic gist I covered in a sentence.

And guards killing stray animals (or shooing away if kinder) is already a thing in our world. As was superstition re: familiars and shapechangers in our reality I hope you agree has neither. On Golarion, the uneducated don't need to be exact w/ their knowledge, just wary that such things exist...which they do. If like us Earth humans, they likely are wrong quite often, but paranoid enough to keep alert, even put up wards (of dubious effectiveness). Spellcasters will steal your soul, don'cha know?!

And I don't know if you homebrew or not, but on Golarion most villagers would have met a 1st level Druid, all of whom can cast Pest Form, likely every so often to amuse folk. Given that Earth has tales of shapeshifting tricksters, imagine how many such stories exist on a world where most bands of heroes have several someones who can. This isn't Merlin & a few select others among armies of knights covering a country; you can find casters in nearly every church or decent-sized organization. And one would think illusions play a part in festivals, likely plays & parodies too. I'd think most every citizen would've been exposed to such trickery. Put a clever person in charge of security and they're going to have to consider that too.

While I adore the notion of a Civil Society of Golarion there's a significant hurdle; there's no baseline society. So it'd be societies, which would in turn become an enormous tome on par with a world guide.

Maybe coming at it from the other direction might suffice, exploring the various technologies available. There could be a grid chart showing each country's advancement levels (or ranges thereof what with wealth disparity). The emphasis would be on what's available and some (wondrous) specialty cases.

Or more likely Paizo could interweave more depth re: infrastructure for areas PCs visit in APs, giving us a collection of snapshots one could use, though perhaps they've done this already?

(And I think this thread took off more than the music one because it's more grounded. How does one juggle auditory concepts for music one's never heard? Heck, try describing real world music in just words, now add alien cultures & magical essences. Meanwhile engineering principles have a universal base, even in a world with fantastical extrapolation.)

In a magical setting full of illusions, polymorph abilities, and charm/control effects, one would expect veterans (or those led by veterans) to use passwords & signals. Those would simply be normal precautions about common magical subterfuge tactics. In much the same way guards would likely kill unknown animals poking around simply because Familiars & Pest Form are available at low levels.

So sure, you might get them to say exactly what you want, but not necessarily what they'd need to say to get what you want.

Though published material doesn't do this much, I'd think there'd be more doubles, people disguised as leadership. Or leaders that blend in. Magical sniping would be too prevalent to ignore. Does Battlecry! address cutting off the head of armies? Or mimicking them? And countermeasures?

Castilliano wrote:

But it is a combat RPG, right? So we get angels more inclined to battle than peace, to crusades rather than charity.

Or those are just the ones PCs are more likely to meet.

Yeah, I occasionally wonder about the breadth of Golarion society & its fantastical elements outside of PC lanes. But until in print, they don't exist; not that they need stats, a simple nod in their direction would do. Heck, I like reading about odd, non-Earth fruits, trees, sports, songs, and holidays, but how much utility does that provide other gamers? Staff has its schedule full already perhaps, but yeah, I'd enjoy it if they tossed in an extra comment here and there about "hearth angels" or "spoiled bread demons". Magic's already pervasive so I don't think it'd water down the wonder, rather increase it. And there could be monsters designed like many humanoid NPCs are, where they have a different combat level than specialty/profession level.

(Spellcheck doesn't recognize 'gamers', but does recognize 'gamer'??)

Free hand-weapons work better than a fist w/ Doubling Rings and their ilk and make a fine second weapon for Double Slice or Twin Takedown while retaining the utility of consumables, Battle Medicine, and otherwise interacting w/ one's environment. There are other good feats (perhaps mostly Fighter ones?) that require weapons rather than unarmed attacks. I can think of several normal builds (as in supported by feats & Archetypes) that could make good use of them, just not the popular sword & shield or two-hander builds.

Yeah, Ace, I dislike the extra layer of morality and ethics too, as if Good/Holy creatures w/ Wisdom, Intelligence, and knowledge beyond even magically augmented mortal capacity act in shortsighted, even negligent ways. I can understand how a zealousness to destroy the Unholy or enforce Good might undermine one's own goals & morality, but so should they. They are exponentially wiser than the Buddha & Marcus Aurelius, and with a greater understanding of how reality operates on top of that. Yet it's the pro-status quo TN's keeping the universe operating? Heck, Asmodeus is selfish and has enough foresight he should be helping too (or maybe sees no need yet).

Of course it's kind of troublesome how many supra-minds are Unholy, like they have no concept of game theory or a civil morality based on rational self-interest. I guess that's the problem, despite having a stat that represents rationality, most planar beings have irrational natures. But it is a combat RPG, right? So we get angels more inclined to battle than peace, to crusades rather than charity. That might tie into existential threats, and how maybe they'd love to help Pharasma with the eternity problem, but feel they need to focus on the possible armageddons first. What benefit is keeping a universe overrun by evil churning along?

I think I've talked myself in a circle there, and Holy types do fight the undead and TN types do resist fiendish incursions. Hmm.

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Either that, or there are low-threat monsters that eat waste?

In all seriousness, Otyughs. They like to live in sewers, and eat waste. And are neutral (generally).

I would imagine smart cities would work out deals with Otyughs to help with sanitation.

D&D outright states and the premaster version in PF2 alludes to the problem with that:

- as long as they have food, they multiply
- eventually they will outgrow even the "food supply" of a city
- they starve
- they wander to the surface looking for more food
So you need to tightly control the population and regularly, or you risk a "sewer stampede".

I can imagine that working out a deal with Otyughs would include some sort of provision for overpopulation. Otyughs aren't very intelligent, but they are sapient. They should understand if they're populous and start going to the surface that it's going to require action.

Yes, there have been many examples of humanoids taming them, going back decades. Oozes too, though often with the humanoids regretting that.

Question is if they can control their breeding. I believe there's an old example of mates, maybe even a PF1 example w/ the first Sewer Dragons scenario. So they have to choose a chaste life of gluttony or...probably being killed. Where does one even find these guys? How do they migrate to most every sewer everywhere??

The poop monsters (as one of my tables dubbed them) remind me of how we on Earth have realized the value of beavers building dams; let nature do the labor for us. In a fantasy world with hundreds of sapient creatures with various predilections plus frequent magical breeding, there could be a lot of off-screen infrastructure filled in by such creatures. There should be more to this than just lair & vault security.

There are already fey that enjoy housecleaning (as well as Gremlins ruining things, so maybe it balances). I can imagine others that enjoy tinkering on toys, delivering mail for cookies*, quizzing kids, eating soot, spinning fabrics, nurturing animals, etc. Flying creatures would help immensely w/ towers, bridges, hoists, and repairs. Heck, fire-breathing ones would be quite useful too, as well as those with acid, cold or electricity...on demand. While I doubt they'd have pervaded to household level, corporations and tycoons should have such (as well as automatons & the like).

Which is to say, we should avoid using Earth development as a proxy, and there might be startling exceptions even in rural areas.

*Unintentional mirroring of email w/ computer cookies. :-)

The earliest dungeon of proto-D&D was in sewer tunnels. They're a staple in fantasy cities if only to insert convenient creatures. So on that score they're ahead of Earth.

With decent technology and advanced magic, major cities should have superior infrastructure to Earth in other ways too, barring recent wars or visits from a marauding beast. Hospitals, universities, factories, and religious institutions flourish. Golarion scholars know much more about nature and their universe than Earthlings, learned from fey, deities, etc. I'd think sanitation, schooling, publishing, and other services a civil society would want would be present at the hubs at least.

I'd extend this to merchant routes too, so good roads, ferries, tunnels, hostels/way stations, etc. Some wealthy countries have established gates with elemental planes and old gates connect(ed) to other planets. Heck, the Azlanti in Starfinder had developed some way to travel through space before Pathfinder times. So one might find superior examples too.

There's a lot of undeveloped wilderness if one wishes a lack of infrastructure for their campaign. Some adventure sites have featured villages who speak only one language (and not Common/Taldan) or who fear outsiders or creatures of other Ancestries.

But generally I'd say infrastructure's a background issue, pliable to suit one's needs for a story, and seldom in the spotlight to give specifics other than for some oft-featured cities.

It's not like the caster has their bearings; it's only the player's meta-knowledge that provides the data the PC needs. So how are they getting that data? Can't detect the spot, then can't discern it's the spot you want. So 50% miss chance at minimum, say if an ally points out the direction to shoot or you're using a line AoE vs. a noisy enemy (or cone with near certainty). Unless the caster's dropping it on themselves of course.

But yeah, I'd certainly let them cast it. Hard to say they can't. Just beware, it's a literal shot in the dark.

ETA: There's a maxim for battle to seldom trust your eyes and never trust your ears. Such a cacophony A pitched battle would be very loud, with all kinds of actions packed into seconds, made worse if inside like many are.

Evil is unnecessary because Good/Holy could become strong enough to guard a greater portion of the proverbial parapet. But, Pharasma has to work with what she's got; the Maelstrom's relentless, as is the internal corruption of undead forces/Void energy.

There's an RPG precedent for True Neutral working for the greater benefit of reality. In Greyhawk, Mordenkainen and some peers recognized that the mortal, even immortal, conflicts paled in comparison to the ultimate threat of Tharizdun, that all resources would be necessary to fight him (or in practice continue to contain him by manipulating his own power so he traps himself; even combined he's still stronger). This higher awareness led to "heroes"/PCs doing some questionable deeds, arguably self-righteous evil ones! "From a certain point of view" indeed.

Difference seems to be that Holy/Unholy conflicts in Golarion don't seem to weaken the system, only keep it churning, except for those that consume souls like Daemons & undead.

And abilities might later lower or dispel your Resistance, give you a Weakness, or otherwise enhance the effect. So while it may seem meaningless at first there are (contrived) situations where it matters.

But IMO it looks cool. Your enemy's hoping they've inflicted something significant, but you're there burning blissfully. That should increase respect and/or fear (even if there's no mechanic behind it).

Arguably it's a light source too, albeit a poor one.

And if you finish the battle soon enough: marshmallows.

Remember the sacredness of one's body/bodily autonomy. Most cultures, presumably even more on Golarion given the metaphysical ramifications, place high value on the ethical treatment of corpses of one's kin, often including those of one's enemy. The ethics differ drastically in practice, yet few consider a human body a mere resource (even among cannibals).

Plus killing someone in self-defense does not give one rights to their body (well, except in the finders-keepers, possession is 9/10 of the law kind of way). RPGs have kinda made this feel like the norm; looting the body has often included its parts, especially if a magical component. But the bodies of formerly sapient creatures in actual practice? That feels like a fairly universal anathema among pro-social (or just un-antisocial) groups. Whether this is reasonable or not is secondary to the powerful emotional revulsion most will then use reason to justify.

"Occasionally among us we'll find a fledgling incapable of flight."
*class laughs*
"No! Do not mock these folk. This is often the mark of true potential. And we want such kindred to feel as much a part of the community as any, even as their calling leads them afar. They'll define the sagas."
*child raises a wing* "But why?"
"Nobody knows. Nobody..."

You are correct in that you only get the abilities listed; Paizo doesn't require investigation to unearth further traits. Also, few creature traits provide blanket immunities any more, i.e. "Construct" comes with none though in practice nearly all share a large set of immunities. This makes it easier to make exceptions.

As for the Elemental Form, it is only a form, not becoming an actual Fire Elemental. So you're going to fall short of some abilities which is something true for most every Form spell to keep their bonuses balanced while giving the player the desired imagery. You get as close as mechanically feasible for the spell level and again, only assume the form, not become any of the actual creatures.

Similar for the Familiar; You get as close as mechanically feasible for the feat/familiar-abilities spent on it. So yes, there could be a balanced version where you pay a higher level feat. PF2 stripped a lot of immunities from the game, so it'd be costly and I doubt people would pay for it, not on a Familiar.

The other two work it into their power balance too (which is why many complain about Summon spells being too weak, the caster's paying for those fringe abilities).

What factors went into Paizo's budgeting? I don't know.

There are some high level spells that achieve this, like Ferrous Form, but Fiery Body doesn't if you're focused on a fire form.

Castilliano wrote:

Note that Summon spells in PF2 create facsimiles, so you aren't desecrating anything or anybody's remains/spirit/etc. w/ Summon Undead (vs. Animate Undead where you were, however contrived it was for such bodies to appear at your location even with low-Rank magic).

Wait, summoned undead aren't real?!

Correct. If summoned via a Summon spell that is, not necessarily via other spells, rituals, etc. It might be better phrased that Summon-spell creatures of all types (and I suppose instruments too) have no existence external to the duration of the spell. They're created whole cloth from some sort of cosmic template not fully explained, but not from creatures on other planes, corpses, souls, nor any other preexisting stuff (except maybe metaphysical proto-matter).

This differs from previous editions, mainly to quell moral issues. There are threads in the forum that address this and supply citations, including one within the last month or so.

There's is room for philosophical inquiry on what such brief (un-)lifespans represent, especially since for that minute or so they're effectively indistinguishable. Ex. How do they speak languages and know facts that the summoner does not know? Soul magic effects them, right, but aren't they soulless? And so on.