C4's page

Legally? Nobody can seem to agree, but I'm currently writing my second 4e clone, Points of Light. My first clone was more of a compilation of classic 4e character options, while PoL is a deeper system revamp to iron out all of 4e's wrinkles. It's still true to 4e's strengths and philosophies though.

I dont really see the point though. The reason Pathfinder and the OSRIC movement worked was because of demand, not legal nuance. I dont think there's a huge pool of disenfranchised 4E players ready to throw their money behind it.

Just wait until WotC drops 4e from DDI.

The votes are in, and Forerunner won by quite a bit!

I'm calling mine Dungeons 5 Dragons...

Nice. 4e based?

Expedition

Range Rover

...I see what you did there.

(I'd rather go with Audi Quattro; German cars are masterworks of engineering, much like my clone will be. ;) Also, quatro with two T's is even cooler than words with X!)

As you may know -- hey, I'm being optimistic here! -- I'm writing a 4e revamp. A sort of 4e Pathfinder, except not concerned with backwards compatibility. I'm not making changes for the sake of change, but I already have a set of 4e-compatible house rules; what I'm writing is more systemic. It will look, feel, and play like 4e (sans really long combat). I've been calling it Heartbreaker 4 (HB4), but that's just a working title.

Some not-so-coy ideas I've had:

4Ever
4Ever After
4Ever Quest (okay, just joking!)
4th Finder

And one more coy idea:
Misfits & Mayhem (stolen from Armchair Gamer's excellent categorizations of D&D styles)

Opinions and ideas are appreciated!

PS: If the above description of HB4 isn't enough, you can read a more detailed summary here.

GM Elton wrote:

But only after 5e is released. Wizards of the coast hasn't stopped printing 4e.

4E being in print doesn't stop someone from using the OGL to make a 4E clone.

*ahem*

It certainly doesn't!

Well it's been a while since the last update, so here are the new pdfs!

Arms
Feet
Hands
Head
Rings
Waist

Is there a relatively inexpensive way to play?

Why yes, there is. I wrote the first 4e compilation-clone, which I'm happy to share. (Complete 4th at gmail dot com)

What rules are current?

You can download the errata doc from here, or you can use my pre-errataed pdfs.

What are some good adventures?

I write my own adventures, so I'll let someone else field this one.

Want to give it a go before the sun sets.

So long as groups are playing it, the sun will never set. :)

Weapons, armors, implements and neck items are up.

** spoiler omitted **

Man, one bad egg makes us all look bad! I'm glad you still want to play 4e after that guy treated you.

Anyway, I have a compilation of everything dragonborn, everything fighter, and well...everything 4e that I'd be happy to share with you. Just email me at Complete4th@gmail.com.

Epic destinies and feats are up!

Dam, I need a vacation.

Due to popular demand, I've rebalanced the weapons lists!

Also, paragon feats are up!

Paragon paths are up!

I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me just how essential is Essentials? Does it dramatically change the rules of the game? Do most people use it? Will my existing core rules work fine with or without it if I join a group? What exactly is Essentials? Do I need to read it?

Essentials is not essential. At all. The title is a marketing ploy to make it sound more appealing. So, no, you absolutely don't need to read it.

It adds a rarity system to magical items, but other than that it doesn't change anything. It just adds options. (Last time I heard anything on the subject, the rarity system is still largely nonfunctional.) Essentials works just fine with core rules.

I'm also having trouble tracking down a complete errata for my core rulebooks (it is possible I'm not as computer proficient as I like to think I am) since I've heard a lot of powers have been changed (the example I was given was magic missile auto-hitting again, I think). If someone could point me to a link, it would help me a lot.

I'm writing a 4e clone, which has all official errata included; and a few unofficial erratas that WotC hasn't gotten around to. It's a handy resource, and I'll send you the links if you ask me nicely. :) (Email me at Complete4th@gmail.com.)

I'm pretty sure I've seen advertisements at the local gamestore for Encounters? I've never been involved in any sort of organized play for any edition of any game, so I don't have much experience in the matter. Would Encounters be a decent way to get back into the system or...

From what I hear from gamers who go to Encounters, its best use is to be a scouting area for good players.

Unfortunately I can't suggest a good adventure; 4e seems to lack quality in that department. I've played KotS and Scales of War, and neither of them were spectacular. Personally I suggest writing your own adventures or porting over adventures from other systems.

I agree with Tequila here. Swearing a spiritual oath to not wear metal, then turning around and dressing your best furry friend in metal is definitely double standard territory.

Martial Practices are done. One more berry in the pie!

C4 Rituals is now complete!

So, you're not interested in errata or C4 because you like to play by the first written RAW?

That's cool; the game mostly works fine that way, especially if you have an agreeable group.

I have to be honest though; I'm confused as to why you felt the need to tell us this?

Thanks for the kind words, TS!

Heroic feats are compiled, and man I'm tired of 'em.

C4 wrote:

I'm curious, how would you overhaul the system?

If I were overhauling rather than cloning, I'd have everything end on the target's turn -- whether it be a set duration effect or a save ends effect. No tracking, no confusion; the only downside is I wouldn't include set-up powers.

I know you probably weren't asking me, but in general view of its construction, the system as it stands works fine. I think there are a few effects that need to be re-evaluated (lookin' at you, 'slowed') and ongoing damage as well, especially since the raw numerical application makes it the easiest thing in the world to balance.

Speaking of the slowed condition, does anyone have any thoughts about the "move X squares" oddity? That is, if a power says "move 6 squares" or "shift 6 squares", it doesn't matter if you're slowed because slowed only affects your speed.

Basically, who thinks it's a loophole, and who thinks it's intentional design?

C4 wrote:

I'm curious, how would you overhaul the system?

If I were overhauling rather than cloning, I'd have everything end on the target's turn -- whether it be a set duration effect or a save ends effect. No tracking, no confusion; the only downside is I wouldn't include set-up powers.

I'd remove almost all the EoNT type powers from the game and make practically everything a SE.

I'd play that. :)

So, all that said? I don't actually agree with the C4 solution - or, rather, I wouldn't use it myself, as the added tracking complications don't quite outweigh the adjusting of power levels in my mind. If working on my own homebrew, I'd probably either leave it as it is, or more likely, be overhauling the whole system on a much deeper level.

I'm curious, how would you overhaul the system?

If I were overhauling rather than cloning, I'd have everything end on the target's turn -- whether it be a set duration effect or a save ends effect. No tracking, no confusion; the only downside is I wouldn't include set-up powers.

Hmm. Well, it's a nice idea. Also the feat taxes thing, but I feel that the advantage of being able to use the CB without changes is larger than the benefits of C4 (at least those you mentioned).

TS didn't mention it, but I actually have two motivations for writing C4: 1) I don't use the CB, so I want a convenient source of up-to-date rules, and 2) I may as well make a few tweaks while I'm writing it.

So I'm not expecting many CB fans to use my work, but that's okay. :)

There're also new multiclassing feats that aren't sketchy like hybriding is, and that doesn't charge feats to swap out powers like the RAW feats do. I think the other benefits of C4's MC feats might be a bit OP though; I'm looking forward to seeing what my group's power gamer does with them.

Yeah, my MC feats may be tweaked based on feedback.

Also the ability to do something about such effects is actually good for the game. It adds more dynamics to it and involves more team work. EoNT effects are generally just there and can't usually be mitigated. In the end my feeling is that, while the SE effects do require a little more book keeping they bring so much more excitement to the game that they really are more then worth it all things considered while the EoNT effects don't normally have that going for them on the same kind of scale - you still have almost as much book keeping but you don't have either the dynamism in terms of tactics or just the fun of rolls being made to make them go away. At the root of it the EoNT just are not as much 'fun' at the table and, when push comes to shove, its all about 'fun' in my view.

I've never thought about it quite this way, but I agree.

One of the reasons elites and solos can be so disappointing is the number of UENT powers which savvy players use to lock them down. Such monsters have save bonuses, and some get extra saves at the beginning of their turns; which makes SE conditions very dicey. Meanwhile, UENT conditions are guaranteed to work for a whole round.

One of my motivations for deciding that UENT conditions can be ended by extra saves was to pave the way for a new elite/solo design. An elite/solo encounter hasn't come up yet in my game, but when it does I'm going to take a page from the warden class, and give my boss monster a few bonus start-of-turn saves. I can't wait to see how it turns out!

The net effect is that the taxpertise feats where a bad idea by WotC because they exacerbate the problem and fixing the numbers themselves is a bad idea because the monsters need every drop of help they can get and a few inherent bonuses are a good idea, if the system does not start by giving the DM such bonuses he'll just have to go off the reservation and add them himself anyway.

Although I heartily disagree* with your assessment, C4 does make it easier to cut the math fix out if you don't think it's necessary. Instead of a dozen feat taxes scattered about the game, C4 has an 'expert bonus' that's applied to attacks and defenses. So if you think the math was fine to begin with, you can just say "No expert bonuses" rather than "Feats e, q, c, t, p, w, g, d, etc. are banned." Because those feats are already cut out of C4. As an added bonus, you'll be cutting AC down a notch or two. (By RAW, AC is the one PC stat that very nearly keeps pace with monster stats.)

*In my experience, it's not math fixes that can make epic a cakewalk. (Math fixes mostly just ensure that casual players can survive and contribute.) It's the UENT stun powers, the PP and ED goodies and other tricks that optimizers use to make epic play a cakewalk.

/sales pitch

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

In other news, I've become a big fan of C4's house rules. C4 fixes most of 4e's big problems -- the only thing the writer hasn't done is switch to hexes. :)

Well go tell him that on his thread...the guy deserves a 'pick me up' by any fan of his changes considering all his work.

Tequila's voiced his thanks on my ENworld thread, and through email.

Though I can't hear too often.

;)

just wondering why people would actually use them...

The same reason most people follow any rule: somebody somewhere thought it was a good idea, and then wrote it down.

No, but if you email me at Complete4th@gmail.com, I'll send you a link!

Holy apostrophe typos, batman!

Anywho, I've added the assassin which completes the classic classes. Now I'm just adding all those Dragon powers. Good gaming, y'all!

Woot, the C4 classes are complete!

Mostly. I still need to search through Dragon mag for whatever powers never made it into print, but I just finished the Warden pdf today, the last of the classic 4e classes. It?s hard to believe I?ve been writing C4 for seven months now, and it?s satisfying to reach this landmark.

Druid is up, along with an updated Character Advancement pdf with a cheat sheet for all of a 4e PC's basic bonuses!

Barbarian is up.

The ardent is up, which completes the psionic classes. Woot!

Battlemind is up. Whew, psionic powers have a lot of text!

Shaman is up!

The Seeker is up!

No.

In ethical angst,

C4

C4 is short for the Complete 4th Edition. So, what’s C4 about? Well, a few things.

First, I’m not gung-ho about the CB (character builder), and I know I’m not alone. A set of all-sources-and-errata-included docs that require only Adobe Acrobat come in handy for some of us. This is C4's primary purpose.

Second, the game is still problematic. It has overpowered options like the infamous taxpertise feats and crippled trap builds like the star pact warlock. The designers, for whatever inane reason, haven’t seen fit to errata these problems and probably never will. C4 is errata for these problems.

C4 is a work in progress; I've written a lot, but there's still a lot more to write. If you're interested, email me at Complete4th@gmail.com and I'll send you what you want.

What I've done so far:

C4 Forward
Character Advancement
Races
Skills
[Mundane] Equipment

Arcane Classes
Sorcerer
Artificer
Swordmage
Warlock
Wizard
Bard

Divine Classes
Cleric
Paladin
Invoker
Avenger
Runepriest

Martial Classes
Fighter
Ranger
Rogue
Warlord

Psionic Classes
Monk
Psion