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I think the reason Pathfinder is losing to D&D 5e is because of player entry to play the game. The first issue is name recognition, if you want to play an RPG D&D IS the name people know (we can’t change the name because Pathfinder does have brand recognition but not close to Dungeons and Dragons). The sheer amount of books that are out there for Pathfinder is an issue, if an interested person walks into a store and sees the amount of books the for Pathfinder is a hurtle to start the game (I think that starting a second edition will help with that.) It is interesting that in order to get into D&D 5e requires a person to buy at least two books but actually three books (Players Handbook, DMs guide and a Monster Manual) to run a game and Pathfinder only requires one (the Core Rulebook) and maybe 2 with a beastiary to have a large variety of monsters. That needs be made clear to any that looks at the book as quickly as possible (like on the spine and cover). It is something that differentiate the two games in a big way. The next barrier to entry for Pathfinder is how your competition advertise their game. I think having a free adventure that anyone can play for free without needing anything to play for the first time is likely the reason that WotC announced that D&D has never been more popular. Pathfinder even has an amazing system to build a player base through the Pathfinder Society. I think if Paizo would release a free adventure with characters for new players to be able to join with nothing but the ability to get to the store is smart. If the store advertise this with the Venture Captains and Lieutenants running them on a specified day of the week your player base would grow and it is a great way to test for new Venture crew for the Venture Captains.


Thank you, that helped. I thought you would need to purchase the untrained use to be able to use that ability more reliably and would make the untrained use a trained use. But I see now that if you are trained it allows you to gain the trained uses list. I kind of like that but it just makes a class with a lot of skills like the Rogue good but even better as time marches on when new skill uses are introduced. Again thank you Blave.


So as I understand it based what you are saying is that at level 1, no characters (at least the Rogue) can’t be trained in any skills from the character sheet (like Athletics to Thievery) other then from their background's lore skill. That why I’m confused because I get a feat (from pg 160) at lvl 1 but I can only pick a feat that has the skill trait which I can’t pick any of the feat with the skill trait (pg 160) because I have to be trained in a skill (like Acrobatics) to pick any of them.

(A great way to really confuse thing to have three sets of skills, one that is skills like Acrobatics, another that is a subset of those skills like balance or sneak which are also called skill (from pg 142) and yet a third that is skill feats (from pg 160, like Acrobatics Skill Feats), please Paizo correct that in some reasonable way.)

So unless the skill (pg 142) cause the skills (Acrobatics) become trained then I can’t pick a feat (pg 160) or if I could split the skills that I my character can train between the skills (Acrobatics) and the skills (pg 142) but the rules do not say this anywhere.

I hope you understand. I tried the best I can.


I’m trying to make a Rogue, I have gotten to the skills section. I don’t know if the 10+ The int modifier is just for the skills as listed on the character sheet (acrobatics, arcana, athletics, all the way down to thievery) or if they are to be used for the skills section of the book which starts on page 142 and ends on page 159 or both. I know they aren’t used for general feats or skill feats (or feat skills or whatever) which starts on pg 160. This needs to be made clear. If it is just for the character sheet skills then how does a character ever get a skill from the book pg 142 and if the points are only for the skills in the book how would you get trained in a signature skill unless the book skill cause you to get trained on the character sheet skills. Please tell me how skills work.


I think Secret Checks are great in the right situations but my point is that some Secret Checks should are fine and even good but some Secret Checks are unnecessary. If I am lvl 1 and have just been Trained in the ability to Identify Magic an item, sure do a secret check but when a character reaches lvl 20 with the skill raking of Legendary in Arcana with a high intelligence and that character identifying an item that isn’t that terribly hard to identify, at lvl 20, that character really should know exactly by how much he or she succeeded or failed to identify that item. Same for a Rogue that is at lvl 1and trying to sneak past someone then he is she shouldn’t know how they do but if that character is lvl 20 and sneaking past a room full of drunks after the wedding of the princess that character should know how much he is she succeeded or failed by and even be able to react to that success or failure. Ok maybe the character doesn’t know all of the circumstances that are happening around him or her, like one of the "drunks" was a person that was trying to hide from the Rogue, but that is what the opposed perception checks are for.

My point is that in some situations Secret Rolls are good but not all of them. I like the secret checks for certain things. If a player is going to alter what their character does in a given situation because they failed then do a secret check but at higher lvls I should know how well I do. This would be like saying that someone that has been a surgeon for many year that is good at and has done too many times to count and after performing the surgery that he not know how well he did. There are complications in surgeries that even the best of surgeons that he or she might not see coming but he or she but if he is she doe they know by the end of that surgery how well they did then he or she should not be a doctor. At every point during that surgery a Legendary Skilled doctor would know everything that is happening to the patient and be about to avoid complications. So should a Legendary skilled sneaky Rouge and a person who is a Legendary skilled Identifier of Magic. And as such they should be able to roll for themselves.


I think we are going to see more stuff or different stuff in the actual 2nd edition when it releases next year. I think they are testing certain aspects to see how they work (streamline, function or enhance the game) to then incorporate them in the things that they have already tested and like but I could be wrong.


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Cyouni wrote:
Please remember this was in 1E with Disguise and Linguistics, and possibly some others as well.

As I said I’m ok with limited uses of Secret Checks, like in a knowledge roll for linguistics or an arcana check, it bothers me sometimes when someone rolls a 4 on a roll and says, "I know nothing!" You night think you know something that isn’t important or that you do indeed know nothing, but to have the GM roll for the player every time a player uses one of their primary abilities could and likely would make them feel powerless over their character in these important moments in the game. In tough situations, ok sure, have the GM roll it in secret like in a boss battle, when trying to sneak out with a most important item of the game or at time when the character would be nervous but every single time? I think that make the player feel like they are not in full control over their character. Especially when they have always had that ability in the past even in 1E.

In 1E, which I never played but I read through the Core Rule book, Disguise has an opposed roll the player would roll for their skill and the GM would roll for anyone that has a chance to perceive the disguise. And I think this is how it should be for Stealth Checks in most situations. The Rogue that has training in sneak and stealth should know most of the time that he has succeeded or not but not always. If the Rogue is sneaking past a guard that he knows is past out drunk he would likely know if he succeeded or not but is he is sneaking past a red dragon that has a lot of treasures and he is nervous about it attacking him then he might not, so in the dragon situation do the Secret Check but not every time.


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I’m not talking about a GM rolling behind a screen, I’m talking about a GM rolling for the player. Skill check that have the Secret Trait are rolled by the GM not the player.


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Secret checks can be interesting when used sparingly and at the right times but not all the time. This effects the Rogue in particular as all stealth checks are secret, which means that the GM rolls it.

Secret Checks
In some circumstances, you will not know whether you succeed at a skill check. If a skill use has the secret trait, the GM rolls the check for you and informs you of the effect without revealing the result of the roll or the degree of success. The GM rolls secret checks when your knowledge about the outcome is imperfect, like when you’re searching for a hidden creature or object, attempting to deceive someone, translating a tricky bit of ancient text, or remembering some piece of lore. This way, you as the player don’t know things that your character wouldn’t. More information about secret checks can be found in Chapter 9 on page 293.

In some cases the might even roll for the character and the NPC if the rules require an opposed roll. This seems excessive to me. I’m ok with a secret roll for knowledge checked or saving throws that the GM doesn’t want a player to know about but this is a lot to put in the hands of the GM. Especially when the GM can fudge things in a lot of ways, the stealth skills are something that the Rogue should be trained in enough to have a very good idea if they have, can and should be able to hide, sneak and conceal an object. It might be ok to do secret checks at level 1 but by level 3-5 the Rogue should have used these abilities enough times to have a relatively good idea f they have failed or not. And by level 10 they should know to the exact degree that they have succeeded or failed.

My real concern is that some secret checks take too much power from the players in many situations, not just for Rogues. It leaves players with, at least feeling like they have less control over what their character can do and at worst actually having less control.

This would be like if the fighter's attacks were rolled by the GM. It seems a bit unfair to me,


If you can have a Half-Elf and a Half-Orc (the other half of both being human) the why can’t there be an Elven-Orc or an Orcian-Elf? The fact that Elves can mate with humans and produce children that are reproductively viably children (meaning they can have children with other Half-Elves making more Half-Elves [soon we will be sorounded by Half-Elves. Oh god no please help us all!!!!] and the same goes for Half-Orcs.) The Half-Elves and Half-Orcs can both mate with Elves, Humans and Orcs as well. Meaning that they are not a Species that they are a Race or a Breed kind of like with Dogs.

So why can’t an Elf mate an Orc or/and an Orc mate an Elf? Do you think that they would produce reproductively viable off-spring so that they could continue to create more of their kind? I think that they would be because the human factor and they'd have to be at least somewhat compatible on a DNA level but the children might be sterile. But as a race that is out there somewhere in hiding with resentments towards their Elvish, Orcish and possibly even their Human cousins, waiting for their chance to destroy them or maybe be embraced by these cousins of theirs, nah just kill all of them.

What would those stats look like they it they could exist? How would Human, Elves and even Orcs react to them? I think it could be an interesting race to add to the game as possibly as an enemy or even as a playable race or “ancestry".


Thank you.


I bought a copy the Standard edition of the Starfinder Core Rulebook and the book seems to have detached from the spine of the book. I sent an email about 12 hours ago and haven't heard back yet. I sent pictures with the email. I think it is a great product, actually the first Paizo product I have bought, other then this issue of course. The reason I bought the book was because of the videos that Talking20 posted on the classes and races in Starfinder, they got me excited to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koNhimfEyiY&list=PL4ihyL-PTq4Pw8fyhTQql k8ZjzlZ2-Zgy I bought it from the best gaming store on Long Island, Game Master Game in Hicksville NY and I would normally return it there but, sadly, they are closing permanently on Sunday. 954 S Broadway, Hicksville, NY 11801 (516) 597-5555 I would like to know what my options are with the book. What can I do? Thank you.