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I've always kind of liked the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds, though I understand that they are not great for optimization. I appreciate them for their RP value and their still nifty abilities. (I mean, come on, Vow of Peace IS a pain, but weapons shattering when they hit you? Awesome.) As I'm playing in a campaign where the DM has effectively done away with alignments, favoring the "shades of grey" mindset for morality, I wondered how that would affect something like the Vows. And I realized it would be pretty easy to make them more evil/selfish, or at least less "shiny, happy, rainbows out the ass" good. In fact, you could think of them as being more Lawful than Good. For example:

Vow of Obedience - Loyalty to an organization that is neutral or even evil

Vow of Poverty - Donate money to above organization or to some other "evil" organization (Who says orphans should get everything?)

Vow of Non-violence/Peace - Though it seems like it would have to be good, I could definitely picture a group of peaceful villains who "wage peace" and demand conformity, especially since they get bonuses to their non-lethal compulsion spells and the like. Think Clockwork Orange or Brave New World.

I'm passing on the Chastity, Purity, and Abstinence Vows, since they work off preconceived notions (sex is bad, drugs are bad, eating meat is bad, etc.) and I don't want to get into a moral argument.

Anyway, like I said, I feel like you could definitely create a non-good character using the Vows if you RP it well. The example I thought of was based off the Witch class. With her hexes and lack of blaster spells, she makes a good buff/de-buff/controller. Basically my idea is a witch who works for a shady organization as something of a bounty hunter; she goes out and "collects people" for the group. Due to trouble in her past that the group saved her from she has sworn a personal loyalty to the group (VoO) and wishes little more than room and board from them (VoP), though part of it has to do with how much she enjoys the job in her own way. And partially due to traumatic events in her early life, but also due to her job description, she avoids killing her targets or others who get in the way, unless it proves absolutely necessary (VoNV)

Again, I'm looking at this from a flavor/RP point of view, rather than building the "COOLEST WITCH EVARRR!!!1!", so I'm just curious what everyone thinks of my interpretations and the viability of the character. Please share any opinions, additions, criticisms, and the like.


I'm really intrigued by the Oracle class and want to get some insight into how to get the most of out it. For my game, we're starting at level 5 with 22-point buy. I've got some basic ideas for the build, but I would really like help on feats, spells, and even some flavor.

So here's what I have so far:

Half-Orc Oracle 5th
STR-16 (15+1 at lvl4)
DEX-14
CON-14
INT-10
WIS-10
CHA-16 (14+2 race bonus)

I really like the Heavens Mystery, so I want to go with the Spray of Shooting Stars and Awesome Display Revelations.

I'm trading out ferocity for the alternate trait of chain mastery. I think the spiked chain is a really awesome weapon, and it fits in with my backstory of being an escaped slave. (He used the chains that bound him to fight his way out) And I know for sure I want the Cornugan Shield feat to go with it (+1 AC when using spiked chain).

Other than that I'm kind of unsure how to go with it. Almost all my class-based skills are INT-based and we have a bard for Diplomacy matters. I want him to be a secondary melee combatant behind the fighter and barbarian, but I don't want to get relegated to healing duty and just be a slightly worse cleric. Please help me out!


VRMH wrote:
lastspartacus wrote:
Would it be broken if it DID allow involuntary possession on a will save?
Probably not. You need to know the name of your victim, and your own body becomes a liability while you're busy puppeteering. It would be a potent spell at its level, but not a game-breaking one.

Those are my thoughts, since it does function as a weaker magic jar. You just get one victim then the spell ends, unlike magic jar where you can potentially affect every enemy in the fight. I guess I can let my DM make the final call. Thanks for the insight!


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So I just hit level 5 as a witch in my game and I'm trying to pick my spells. I was really intrigued by Marionette Possession because it seems like it can be really useful until I get Magic Jar. However, the description says it can only be used on willing creatures. First of all this seems kind of pointless, especially for a 3rd level spell, but it also says that the spell requires a Will save to resist, which doesn't make sense if the target is willing. Likewise, the shortened description says "Like magic jar, but limited to line of sight" but magic jar doesn't have the willing target restriction. What's the deal?