Asherr's page

Big ol post, i spent th epast half hour reading the reast, and it reminded me of my own experience, and i thought given some peoples entusiasm they may enjoy it ^^.

Back when I was a newbie to dnd, when I was about 12, playing with an older brother and his friends, ages ranging from 16-25, a particular party member was playing a very light fingered rogue named Roderick. I was playing a Sorceror, I wasn’t great, but I pulled my weight, buffing, and dealing what dmg I could. After a short while, the dm started handing me pieces of paper telling me that I had less gold than I thought I had, at first I figured, ok im new to this, so, its gotta be a regular thing that happens go with it. And they kept happening, and I would shrug and keep doing what I was doing.
It is at this point id like to point out I have a visual impairment, much worse now, but even back then my eye sight wasn’t great, the player running Roderick had been serupticously writing/handing notes to the dm, who in turn had discreetly read them (I really hold nothing against the dm, he liked being impartial, and I respect him for it, meant he could mediate a lot better between us and the world), eventually one of the other players, the paladin, got sick of what was going on and got into an argument with rodericks player, as it wasn’t right, especially since I was so new to the game and didn’t really know what was going on, let alone being confident to stand up to him being significantly older than myself. Eventualy the argument ended and I surprised everyone by telling them, I was fine with it, its all happening in the game, and I don’t know about it, perhaps someone is stealing my gold, perhaps I didn’t count it properly. And so the game continues, Roderick stops using paper notes and just flagrantly states when hes raiding my belongings, the dm takes me aside after a particularly long session and asks whether everything’s ok, he knew id been bullied a lot as a kid, and that I had a hard time sticking up for myself and he was concerned that I wasn’t so much playing my character as myself. We got to chatting and I asked if it would be alright if I could do some things, “out of play” I had heard some of the other players talking about doing things one on one with the dm outside the regular sessions and was wondering if I could take it a step further, listing the actions I was taking in my gaming journal “I kept logs of the things we did, and often got asked to recap what wed done the last session” he was surprised and said it would be ok, but listed off the things I “couldn’t” do, taking direct action that involved other players without their direct input being the main one, so no combat or pilfering of there belongings etc.

And so time wore in, the DM forgot about our chat, and Roderick kept helping himself to my gear. I specifically asked the DM to roll spot checks for me for the next 16 hours in game, as I devoted as much time as possible to catching the thief, eventually, after a degree of fatigue, I cought him in the act, but pretended I hadn’t, not even reading the dms note until after the game. And it was then I begun setting the wheels in motion.

As I leveled I had begun taking ranks in alchemy, a scattering in diplomacy, knowledge skills, gather information, disguise, professions, etc, everything I would need to make informed decisions in game, or to reflect my characters burgeoning knowledge in such skills.
I began making payments to a band of mercenaries, significantly higher level than our party, a good 7 levels higher, to perform a service in the near future, and received a signed copy of the contract. I discouraged suspicion of these payments with the smokescreen of sending money to my ailing mother, which I had already been doing each time our party made a windfall, so it didn’t raise suspicion when I would take a little longer arranging a courier.

Next I bought a significant number of “fools gold” pyrite, and fake lead gold coins, intermingling them with my own store of gold coins, after having sepperated a number for future expenses in a sepperate pouch “silenced bag of holding” that I stored my spell casting reagents/components inside. I paid a small fortune for these fakes, so as to leave no margin for error of Roderick accidently discovering there true nature. Around this time I also sent word for the Mercenaries “posing as bounty hunters” to begin trailing our party, with orders to question vendors, innkeepers and merchants about a Forger fitting Roderick’s description, this would in turn lead to a number of them having their coins checked, and considering the frequency with which Roderick took my gold, and summarily spent it, a high number of fakes would be found, incriminating Roderick.

Around this same time I also commissioned a Bard to compose a ballad of Rodericks deeds, duplicity, theft, flagrent disregard for the law. In short greatly exaggerating the behaviours he currently exhibited, and adding a few damning qualities to the list for good measure. I also Hired a band of up scale thieves, paying them every gold piece I had just earned from our last dungeon crawl, to steal the Dukes ring of office, for one of their troupe to wear a disguise resembling Rodderick as they performed the crime, and to be intentionally spotted by guards fleeing the castle grounds, and to have drugged and left the duke in a compromising and embaressing position “shaving his head completely bald, this duke was a vain man”, the member of the troupe disguised as Roderick would also go to a number of establishments, and spend yet more “fake” gold, making sure to introduce himself, or for the proprietors to hear hhis name in passing, to another member of the troupe.

As we prepared to set out on our next dungeon crawl/quest, I sent instructions for the bounty hunters to specifically seek out the duke, and inform him of their persuit of Roderick, the Duke would in turn doubtless offer them a reward for bringing Roderick to him to face “justice”. The mercenaries could then wait in the town we would soon be departing until we returned.
I also sent word for the bard to begin spreading the tale of Roderick the Red, including “his” most recent activities, which would, doubtless erve as a constant reminder to the poor duke of his embarrassment, and of Rodericks crime, no doubt infuriating him still further with each passing day.
I also sent word for the thieves to wait in the same town as the mercenaries, ready to plant the ring, and a lock of the dukes hair, on Roderick when we returned.

Once we were finished with the dungeon I send a “sending/message spell to each of the hired parties, who were waiting for us.
So in our intermission I handed over my journal to the DM and he read the highlighted parts, my plans and actions taken, his eye brows just rose higher and higher as he read on, by the end he looked pretty damn surprised and taken aback. I asked whether it was all on the level, and he said it was, and that I had paid far more gold for services rendered than I needed to, and I replied that I had done so as I was doing so as a anonymous client in every case, having no direct or indirect contact with them, using go betweens for initial contact, and sending/message spells there after.

when the intermission ended, the dm played it all out, Roderick made a beeline for the tavern, and when he was refused service by a rather irate barkeep, he didn’t think twice about accepting free drinks from “admirers” (local girls hired by the thieves), after he was suitably drunk, the thieves planted the evidence in his belongings. Soon after, the Mercenaries posing as bounty hunters stormed into the tavern, demanding to know where Roderick was hiding, a short fight ensued, the party trying to defend Roderick, but failing miserably, as we were all fatigued from our forced march and our cleric was out of healing juice. So Roderick was trussed up and was led off toward the city, he was confused as hell, equal parts scared and angry, as clearly there had to be a mistake.

The Paladin in our group managed to convince the Duke to give Roderick a fair trial, it didn’t help Roderick much. After the ring and lock of hair were found on his person, combined with eye witness reports of him fleeing the castle, the cornerstone of his defence became his ignorance of the forgeries, something he would soon regret. A expert on forgeries explained that when a certain chemical is combined with Pyrite it changes color, and anyone working with pyrite in sufficient quantities to forge false currency would have trace elements of the pyrite on their hands and so when combined, and he demonstrated on rodericks hands, much to his disbelief, that their hands would change color, in this case a deep red.
Roderick was convicted and sentenced, publicly hung, and his head mounted on a spike outside the Dukes castle.

hiss next character, Rodericks cousin Arthur, a Ranger with a bone to pick, was specialized in rooting out information and tracking people down. And so the next few months our adventures were tracking down and questioning people, slowly picking apart the web of intrigue I had spun, but each party could only give the one name of the man that hired them, Dresper, our party nemesis a powerful Wizard, so after the final lead ran cold, we went on a man hunt, and actually put Dresper to the sword, and that was that, to this day, no one else knows what I did except the DM. He actually congratulated me on the degree of thought and work I put into it, I had after all given him three months of adventuring plotline.

He gave me three levels worth of experience for the collective, roleplaying, planning, prep, expenditure of resources, changes made to my own character, my alignment shifted as my character became increasingly bitter and resentful.. He explained this bonus exp to the others as good role playing rewards, as I had been Rodericks most fervent defender in the ensuing court battles and evidence hearings, even resorting to sorcery to try and get him off, before being talked out of it by the paladin player, and seemingly putting together clues after the trail had gone cold.

On the whole a rather fun experience honestly. And a lesson to be learned, don’t steal another players gold, you never know, maybe there playing a sociopath? And good roleplaying will probably see you hang ^^

"The three attacks of the cat animal companion plus the rake ability are really, really nice at low level. Having the three attacks makes the cat much more consistent at dealing damage than many other melee based characters at that level. I'm just saying this seems really, really strong for a class feature."

umm you realise that the cats companions claw attacks, or its bite/rake are in fact secondary attacks and recieve only half the strength bonus to damage? rounded down, and attacking with more than one natural attack without multi attak incurs a -5 penalty to hit, i find it laughable that barring a string of 20s it could possibly do more damage than say a fighter sword and boarding, sheer penalties alone for the full attack action actualy lowers its chances of dealing damage to most opponents within CR of the party, let alone dealing more given its penalties to strength based damage on secondary attacks. IF and its a big IF, al the cats attacks hit, it deals 1d6+1 bite, 2 claws at 1d4+0 each, and a 1d4+0 rake attack. Thats dismal, be honest...

Again i have to say, its importat to actualy consider everything properly, at later levels, level 9 when the companion gets multiattack for free from druid level progression, that is when its attacks ona full attack action "charge combined with pounce"deal more damage, but as someone else has already stated, these multiple attacks in turn have to contend with damage reduction, and more attacks is comparatively BAD, exspecialy when compared to strong singular attacks vs damge redution.

in order for a "cat" at the lower levels to imitate this degree of success it has to take the Multiattack feat ASAP level one at the earliest. the resulting charge/pounce would then be resolved at a +0 penalty/bonus (multi attack lowering the penalty to -2, and charging adding +2) this feat choice means the animal companion does not have a different feat of course, and could, given the aggressive metering of the build, result in its unnessisary exposure to risks, and quite likely death. charging lowers its AC and ORC's love to crit low ac targets, and at these lower levels it wouldnt nessisarily take a crit to kill it.

Personaly i steer clear of "dice heavy" combat models, it tends to slow the game down (dont get me started on digitaly rolled dice...), irritating other players/gm, even yourself if it goes poorly. Its why when i run a "companion/familiar/pet/npc" i keep them simple and straightforward, it makes combat less of a chore and still just as enjoyable, as the companoins with less attacks tend to have interesting/usefull perks to make up for it (a wolf can trip after biting and dealing damage, spiders have poison etc)

Okay so i was just reading through this string of posts, as im starting aa fresh first level druid character for a new campaign, the one i had just run to level 31 having taken its course.

I have been playing since i was twelve, so literaly half my life, so beleive me when i say, if the fighter and rogue are being out damaged by n ANIMAL they have either built thier characters/or are playing WRONG, yes you can actualy play "wrong".

The guys i play with spend perhaps "2 hours" on thier characters, thats a decent amount rite? sadly no its not, they spend little actual time discussing party cohesion or synergy, who will do what and how, they dont think long term, or hell even mid term, in some cases building a character soley for "fluff" and complain when they dont perform well in thier intended or designed role. so in reallity they have spent 2 hours making there character, but very little time at all actualy seriously thinking about it.

I on the other hand spend only an hour making any given character, in part because i have dedicated the time and effort to learning rules, feats, classes adn there archetypes. Unlike these other players i actualy spend this entire character creation period scrutinizing my in "proto" production character, and as a result actualy excel in the desired areas, whether its combat, negotiations, skill buff, or reconessance, buffing/heals.

You would by your definitionn dub me a min maxxer correct? because i actualy take time to consider pitfalls my character may face and take steps in advance, because i deal more damage consistantly im automaticaly over powered? or is it because i played to my class choices/strengths? again im still a min maxxer, but ill be damned if ill take it from someone who cant even make a fighter that cant out dps a druids animal companion...like srsly, no feats, fighter swinging a greatsword has out dpsed the animal companion, unless for some reason strength was his dump stat...at which point he realy has no idea what hes doing "barring a crazy awsome halfling/goblin using weapon finesse and duelist'ing it up ^^.

if this were 3/3.5, i would agree with you, because animal companions could be altered and buffed by about 20 feats and class option/etc, but in pathfinder they are literaly using a standard array, and follow a strict progression, at a 3/4 BaB i would like to point out.

Is it not also possible, nay, PROBABLE that this animal companion has out damaged your group because of lucky rolls? because the alternative is thier characters are fataly flawed and only the highest immersion of roleplaying could justify it.

And i would also like to point out, just because i make my characters well "properly" (taking the time to actively consider it, not just, oh that would work, or that sounds cool) it doesnt mean i dont roll play. In my grops, i actualy spend the most time actualy roleplaying, and avoiding meta game influenced decisions, i commit to my characters, and by extension thier familiars and animal companions, i dont "throw them away" and i dont know a single person who would, i only place my companions in as mmuch danger as i would place myself, and so i often do it myself, this same rule applying to how i treat other players in game, it allways irks me when the wannabe paladin commands the rogue to scout out ahead in a dungeon we all suspect is full of incorpreal undead or other nasties that can quite easily destroy a character running solo.

as to the matter of everyones time to shine, i have to agree with an earlier post, holding back solely to make a "little guy" feel big doesnt actualy help anyone, should the wizard use lower level spells to help the multi classed sorceror/fighter feel like hes significantly contributing, all the while increasing the parties chances of a fatality or death just to satiate someones ego? the answer is of course no, unless that players suicidaly depressed, or there is a valid roleplaying reason to do so.
the only situations where i can understand, and in fat endorse the use of restraint is WHEN and ONLY WHEN you have an over powered character, in class/feats/skills/abilities/scores/items, hold back, dial back to be slightly better or on par as the other primary damage dealer, and when the *stuff* hits the fan, progressively unleash your power, only reigning it in after youv insured the parties risks are back within acceptable levels. I like to call it the "Goku" super saiyen approach, and it quite surprised one vindictive gm, when he designed a encounter to actualy kill my character, with a significant amount of overkill besides, only to realise too late, i had been playing at about 2/5 of that characters potential "a cleric/healbot" the look on his face as what was his killing blow actually signalled the turning point, priceless, contingencies are just hilarious when used properly and turning to your mates and stating "Opperation W.T.F.is a go", and handing them thier "altered" charactersheets, with all the buffs they just got. Just the look of puzzlement on the gms face, and then as the realization of whats going on hits him XD.

So my point after that rant is this, do not expect another player to "riegn in" his animal companion or indeed his actual character, if its doing more damage its doing so as a standard example of its kind, animal advancmeent, so you would be by that logic, sub par to a animal of same level, mybe look at your own character and see what you could ahve done better to fufill your party role, bards arent designed to do more damage than barbarians and fighters.
second, as so many people have stated snimal companion strength tapers off rather quickly, because its an animal...if it maintains a certain degree of combat significance, its because th eplayer using it ha taken steps to do so, so again, refer to the first step, think about your own character.
thirdly, and lastly. declaiming and denouncing a well built character just because its "stronger" than your own, does not make the creator a bad player, it is there attitude that they bring to the table and the way in which they play the game that decides whether they are a "roll player" or roleplayer.

My latest character will be another testament to "intelligent design", im fufilling a front line tanking role, along with my animal companion (wolf), i dont expect to be dealing much damage at all, especialy later on, as i am also the parties healbot, or half of one, a mates making a cleric, as my levels increase i will take more and more feats and items to synergize with mmy animal companion and increase my wild shape capabilities, by late levels i will probably be on par with the damage ddealers of the party again, and not just relegated to tanking and healbotting, its all in the ebb and flow of each classes makeup and party composition.

And before anyone comments on ym horrendous spelling, im legaly blind...glaring laptop screens or pc monitors arent exatly easy to read.