AshVandal's page

Pathfinder 2E seems to be doing a lot of things right in rectifying some of the old notions about medieval weapons and armor, but it still gets a lot wrong. Was there an attempt to incorporate some of the newly rediscovered knowledge out there put forward by HEMA and prominent YouTubers on the subject? Did you guys want to do more and were limited by necessity of game mechanics?

For instance I really appreciate how bastard swords and hand crossbows don't seem to require a special proficiency anymore, but longswords are still one handed weapons and padded armor is still bad and studded leather armor is still a thing even though it never was.

One of my favorites, nevermind he's still primarily referncing D&D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrVc1v90b7o

AshVandal wrote:

Would you be willing to, and if so please do, rank the following NPC characters at the height of their power (regardless of their current living/dead/absent status, and regardless of whether they would be bbeg) in order of personal power in terms of “end of AP bbeg” from greatest to least:

Xanderghul
Baba Yaga
Nex
Geb
Tar Baphon
Alaznist
Jatembe
Sorshen
Karzoug
Zutha

My preference, which isn't the same as canon, since I don't make that decision on my own, would be:

Alaznist
Baba Yaga
Xanderghul
Sorshen
Jatembe
Tar Baphon
Nex
Geb
Karzoug
Zutha

The above conversation took place in the Ask James thread and I thought you should know in case you didn't see it. It really doesn't change anything you wrote in your estimation but I thought you should know that according to the Anniversary Edition of RioR, Karzoug is a CR 21 creature. I don't have access to the original print so I'm not sure if that's what you were basing your estimation off of but you listed Karzoug as CR 22. But that means that you would also have to downgrade your estimation of Zutha, to probably a CR 19 or 20. Ignore the part about Alaznist, unless you want to account for the follow-up points James made about that particular ranking.

AshVandal wrote:

I'm also surprised that you ranked Jatembe above Tar-Baphon. TB is listed as a CR 26 creature where as Jatembe is listed as CR 24. That leads me to believe you obviously value Archmage tiers above mythic ranks even with unique powers, and that concept actually helps me understand the design of mythic tiers vs rank way better than I think I previously did.

Q: You've stated you have a statblock for Xanderghul at full-power in your possession that you've never published. Did you also stat up Alaznist at full power such as you've described?

No, it means that I didn't remember off the top of my head what CR they pegged Jatembe at. I wasn't involved that much in Mythic Realms' design or development, which is another reason I qualified my list as being not-canonical and my own list.

I didn't stat up Alaznist at full power, because that's a lot of work for something that doesn't have any "on screen" time and would require a lot of extraneous design to spell out in game rules exactly how all that time travel stuff happens. I chose instead to leave that off-screen and drive the plot rather than be stuff that the PCs deal with.

Oh, well in that case, would you be willing to revise that list? :P

AlgaeNymph wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

My preference [for ranking spellcasters], which isn't the same as canon, since I don't make that decision on my own, would be:

Alaznist
Baba Yaga
(etc.)

Wait, more powerful than CR 30, in-the-same-weight-class-as-Cthulhu, can't-kill-her-without-permission, somehow-more-powerful-than-most-demigods Baba Yaga? How so?

Once again... the original question asked "At the height of their power, not the average."

For Alaznist... (Return of the Runelords spoiler)...

** spoiler omitted **

And these sorts of confused responses are a great example and object lesson as to why I generally dislike answering "who is most powerful" type questions. I should have listened to my instincts and said "Dunno, who do YOU think is more powerful? Start a separate thread to talk about it with others, perhaps?"

At least I said it was a non-canonical answer.

And that means that my new answer is different, and I'm not gonna say what it is. :-P

Well you craftily evaded giving the information that I most wanted, though you still narrowed down things substantially. The intent of the question was to try and bracket Nex and Geb's approximate power-level, since I read a past post where you stated you believed Nex would win in a straight up mage-duel against Geb. I was hoping that by providing a known spectrum of powerful individuals, one known character might separate the two. I was actually assuming Alaznist would be in between, or at least be directly below or directly above. I assumed you would use her published statblock for comparison, not an off-screen version we've never seen. Also, ranking Tar-Baphon (CR26) above and Karzoug(CR21) below actually leaves substantial room for future development.

I'm also surprised that you ranked Jatembe above Tar-Baphon. TB is listed as a CR 26 creature where as Jatembe is listed as CR 24. That leads me to believe you obviously value Archmage tiers above mythic ranks even with unique powers, and that concept actually helps me understand the design of mythic tiers vs rank way better than I think I previously did.

Q: You've stated you have a statblock for Xanderghul at full-power in your possession that you've never published. Did you also stat up Alaznist at full power such as you've described?

AshVandal wrote:

Is there a most powerful Sorcerer on Golarion(obviously someone is)(I don't know of any, or I'm overlooking them)? Who is it, and is it currently or planned to be a named character that will be a significant lore point of Golarion?

To be honest, I try to avoid hyperbolic pronouncements like this. Saying who is the best at anything sets a ceiling that then we can't exceed without looking like we messed up. If I say Picklenose the Pauper is the most powerful sorcerer today, and then tomorrow I come up with a great idea for a story about an even more powerful sorcerer named Beetlebreath the Boastful, then I either have to abandon Beetlebreath's story or I have to invalidate what I've said already about Picklenose.

What someone COULD do is to scrub every single sorcerer stat block we've published and mentioned in print over the past 12 years or so and that'd reveal who the most powerful sorcerer is that we've yet mentioned, but I have no idea who that might be off the top of my head, because as mentioned above... that's not how my brain works when coming up with content for Golarion.

I'd rather not set limits to the potential stories I've not yet thought up by creating arbitrary boundaries, in other words. Sorry.

I will try to rephrase, as this is not how I intended the question, although I suspect the answer remains the same. Rather is there a canonical sorcerer that you know of that currently shares a similar level of worldwide respect, infamy, or renown as the likes of Baba Yaga, Xanderghul, Tar-Baphon or Jatembe?

Would you be willing to give me you anticipated CR's, template options, and mythic status if any, of Nex and Geb if you had to stat them up right now?

Is there a most powerful Sorcerer on Golarion(obviously someone is)(I don't know of any, or I'm overlooking them)? Who is it, and is it currently or planned to be a named character that will be a significant lore point of Golarion?

My preference, which isn't the same as canon, since I don't make that decision on my own, would be:

Alaznist
Baba Yaga
Xanderghul
Sorshen
Jatembe
Tar Baphon
Nex
Geb
Karzoug
Zutha

Would you be willing to answer that canonically? What I mean is, would you be willing to rank them in the order you understand them to be canonically positioned currently, allowing for the possibility that future official publication could alter that list?

My preference, which isn't the same as canon, since I don't make that decision on my own, would be:

Alaznist
Baba Yaga
Xanderghul
Sorshen
Jatembe
Tar Baphon
Nex
Geb
Karzoug
Zutha

WOW...I did not expect that ordering at all. Now I have to change and add on to the original follow on questions I was planning on asking. Thank you so much for answering that however, I was really expecting you not to.

So...that really begs the question, what about Alaznist is so interesting to you that you think she should be the quintessential big bad evil wizard of Golarion?

Are the Shory analogous to FR's Netheril? Are there any immediate/semi-immediate plans to tell their story in more detail?

You are suddenly transported into Golarion and are gifted with a divine or arcane magic using class of your choice at 20th level. What everyday spells (with any metamagic feat attached) fill your 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots? You have only 19 in INT/WIS/CHR.

AshVandal wrote:

Lawful good = Paladin

Lawful evil = Hellknight
Chaotic good = ???
Chaotic evil = Antipaladin

Hellknights aren't lawful evil paladins. Most Hellknights are lawful neutral.

My mistake, regardless is there an approximate CG analog?

Would you be willing to, and if so please do, rank the following NPC characters at the height of their power (regardless of their current living/dead/absent status, and regardless of whether they would be bbeg) in order of personal power in terms of “end of AP bbeg” from greatest to least:

Xanderghul
Baba Yaga
Nex
Geb
Tar Baphon
Alaznist
Jatembe
Sorshen
Karzoug
Zutha

What is the significant difference between a diety’s Herald and their Empyrean Paragon angel?

Idon't have much to say about solars. I'm not off the top of my head familiar with what we said about them in Chronicle of the Righteous. I don't think there's a limit to the number that can exist; that was a 1st edition D&D thing, as far as I know. We don't say how many exist in the Great Beyond.

Heralds are what they are, at a CR 15 tier, SPECIFICALLY to make them things that you can conjure via greater planar ally. You can't do that with solars; you need gate to

Is there a particular reason why greater planar ally was set as the benchmark and not Gate? It’s the difference between an 8th and 9th level spell. It still requires the approval of their patron diety regardless to have a herald show up. Maybe Arazni and Hand of the Inheritor wouldn’t have been killed if they were stronger and the clerics calling them a little more powerful/wise/experienced.

AshVandal wrote:

If you were to stat up Arazni prior to her defeat and subsequent lich transformation, would she about the same as she currently is stated? Was she always a Wizard?

Arazni's "before she was a lich" status is REALLY complicated. Keep an eye out on Tyrant's Grasp for some more hints and info there. I'm not quite ready to talk more about that stuff though, to avoid spoiling some of that Adventure Path before the books are out.

!!!!!!!!! >:-))

Do you regret adding mythic to the game? Will we see more mythic stuff in the future? Will we ever see official class levels above 20? Do you like extremely high level play?

Lawful good = Paladin
Lawful evil = Hellknight
Chaotic good = ???
Chaotic evil = Antipaladin

If you were to stat up Arazni prior to her defeat and subsequent lich transformation, would she about the same as she currently is stated? Was she always a Wizard?

I think I'm cheating the forum rules here but I have a lot of questions about angels and specifically Solars and their relationship to the gods. If you could ramble for a bit about solars in general, that'd be great. I'll repost all this in separate questions if you want but I'd rather just give you some talking points.

Do gods directly empower/sponsor a Solar angel, and is there a limit to how many solars a god can maintain? How many solars exists in the Golarian pantheon; why are solars NOT the "herald" of gods that have them (why are Herald's CR 15 unique creatures when gods could build on a solar/empyrean templates)?

In Wrath of the Righteous; Baphomet snatches the Herald of a true god and makes that creature far more powerful than it was previously. Was that just a story thing, or is there an story explanation of how a demon lord empowered a creature beyond what a god did, and is there a limit to how powerful a demon lord can create/empower a creature?

Will we ever get a more detailed explanation of who/what the 10 Magic Warriors of Jatembe were, a roster, a more detailed list of their accomplishments, and maybe even statblocks?

Is there any remarkable relationship between Qlippoth and the Elder Mythos? Did one spawn the other, do they share a common ancestry? Both seem to predate material plane life and probably the pantheon of gods. Both seem to have similar goals of returning the multiverse to a state of nothing or chaos.

Ok, that's long, so I'm not going to use the quote function, but either way:

According to the other things we know about Zutha, such as Shattered Star's Continuing the Campaign article, Zutha's body...

Second, the next thing that becomes interesting is whether or not the [url=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=849?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#42407]Cenotaph had its ...

Third, just because you learn from someone how to do something doesn't mean that they need to have attained that state themselves. History, and mythology, are rife with examples of people being able to teach something that they understand without having it themselves.

Fourth, if you actually check their statblocks, none of the Runelords use any material outside of the core line other than the Inner Sea World Guide and the 3 Adventure Paths (Rise, Shattered Star, Return) having to do with their story (Edit: Ok, Krune uses stuff from Pathfinder Society Season 4, but that is where he was featured). I don't think Paizo would have used Dread Lich for Zutha, in fact he was called a unique lich, not a greater lich or dread lich or the like. ... Wait, just realized you said dread LORD, not dread LICH. Please ignore that misreading. Anyway, the Mythic Lich template doesn't actually allow for partial...

Edit: "Powerhouse" FYI, Zutha is one. See, anyone who can cast 9th level spells is absurdly powerful. Wish alone is bonkers and that can make someone a powerhouse. Zutha does not need to be a mythic being to be a powerhouse as he qualifies by virtue of being a full caster who achieved level 17+.

I cut some of the quotes for brevity of reference, I did not alter your words which are reproduced above.

Your first and second points are salient, I have no useful response at this time. Thank you for the input.

Your third point I would disagree with. Could you give me an example? I am neither a doctor, nor a plumber, nor an expert mixed martial artist, would you want to learn either of these three things from me? In my personal real-life experience, you can only teach what you know, and a surprising number of people are masters at a craft and are unable to teach it to other people. I would think that Tar-Baphon would not trust some feeble non-mythic lich to teach him how to become a mythic lich, or at least when the requirement of "Get yourself smote by a god, trust me, it was on my 'to-do' list" pops up, most creatures of an intelligence of Tar-Baphon's calibre might respond with "you first". But hey, I guess "He who dares, wins" is an apt motto in this case.

Four) is a multipart point, so I will try to address: Why this instance UM is not a thing? Runelord Sorshen has Overwhelming Presence on her spell-list; Ultimate Magic. Runelord Angothane has spells from UM on his statblock, and he was previous to most Runelords. Zinlun has UM spells on his statblock. So you can't just write off UM as not a thing. There is no reason to assume Zutha wouldn't have memorized some UM spells if he had his full allotment of 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. You can't just assume that spells from UM are newfangled post Earthfall discoveries.

No, I don't think Paizo would have used Dread Lich or Dread Lord if they were to stat Zutha up. I spent a little free time and my lunch break at work trying to catch up on 6 fricken years of FAQ on the forums and from what I gather Zutha was just a vanilla necromancer. Nothing really special about him. Half of the undead in Gallowspire's dungeons past level 5 are individually more powerful than Zutha in terms of raw magical power. I'd like to think that Zutha was special in some way, unique from all the other 17+ plus level liches running around like cockroaches in Gallowspire.

Per RAW, from page 176 of Mythic Adventures: subheading Mythic Rank, paragraph 3: "It is possible for a low CR creature to have a high mythic rank, or for a high CR creature to have a low mythic rank" While Paizo typically builds vanilla mythic monsters according to the rule of MR=0.5(CR), it does not have to be universal, it's just a rule of thumb they build vanilla creatures with. While I see where you might interpret from the Creating a Mythic Lich template why Zutha must be MR 9, this doesn't have to be the case, even though it SHOULD hold true. Seriously, how many MR 10 liches are there running around Golarian? Geb's NOT a mythic lich, he's potentially a mythic ghost and really he just should be an Archmage, so I don't see a problem with Zutha being MR9 or MR 1, whatever your campaign wants. Maybe what made Zutha special is he was the first mythic lich, as he didn't achieve the height TB did because he didn't entirely know what he was doing on the road to power? Also, why does James care that mythic lich doesn't stack with Archmage, when Zutha is neither? That's a dumb point. I don't know, but it's a moot point anyways since he's just a vanilla wizard vanilla lich 17 MR 0.

Also, Tar-Baphon's power set is completely unique from MR 10 liches. What was the point of them spelling out exactly what a MR10 lich is and then completely doing something else with the character. How many MR10 liches are there anyways?

Your Edit) Ya, I kinda see your point, but it doesn't feel satisfying to me. Like I said and has also been pointed out by others, half the liches locked down in Gallowspire are level 17+.

AshVandal wrote:

[

Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level.

1. Characters in universe are not necessarily aware of their game mechanics. Game mechanics are not the physics of the universe. They are an abstraction designed to allow players to tell a story. Nothing more. This is asking why a 20th level army general would ever serve a 5th level human aristocrat president. "Who is in charge" is very rarely if ever determined by "who would win in a fight to the death."

2. NPCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how much certain segments of the player base may want them to. It just isn't feasible nor even desirable for the purposes of crafting and playing through entertaining stories. NPCs function on the power of plot. They exist for the sole purpose of facilitating the telling of an entertaining story featuring the PCs.

3. When game designers are creating products they do not have perfect knowledge of everything that has been published for the line, nor everything that will be published. For the most part only the broad strokes exist ahead of time. When something gets put into a book there is a very high chance that 1 year previous the author of that book didn't know the stuff they were putting in. They made it up as they wrote the book. It wasn't all part of some grand plan from the beginning. As a result of these facts game products are CHOCK FULL of inconsistencies. That is both perfectly ok, and absolutely normal. Expecting everything to make perfect sense or to follow a grand plan is highly unrealistic and will only lead to disappointment. Authors are human. Humans are inconsistent. Instead of trying to find secret patterns and hidden meanings where there are none, just accept it for what it is and enjoy the ride.

Edit:

4. These books are designed for YOU the player to use. If you in your game that you run think he should be mythic, just make him...

1: This is almost never true for Chaotic Evil characters, which both Zutha and Ungarato are. Power dynamics, while not the be all end all, are a primary driver of highly powerful chaotic evil characters. Obviously there can be exceptions, but those exceptions are not likely the rule, and shouldn't be assumed to be so.

2: Answered by your #4. I like my games to have consistent worlds. There is no reason for the rules to be different, and saying "Npc's can do this and you can't because PLOT!" is boring and contrived. Telling me unstated gods can make artifacts is cool. If you're telling me a 17th level mage can make artifacts because PLOT! Then in my Golarian PC's can make artifacts. I generally allow them to anyways, and my past DM's generally allow me to because I'm amiable to THE GRAND EPIC QUEST FOR LOOT that is necessary. "Sure you can make that artifact magic sword you've always dreamed of that can slice through a mountain, I have about 20 or so adventures planned out for you to assemble the materials and you might need to convince your buddy wizard and cleric to help enchant it, as well as 5 great wyrm metallic dragons, etc"

3: In fact, many companies that hold IPs can choose to approve works by authors to ensure consistency, and despite that they're rarely canon. It is not unreasonable for me to assume Paizo has done so. Also it's not like I'm citing random 3rd party stuff for my case, I'm citing official product pieces released by Paizo.

4: Thanks for your permission.

1), How do you link like that? How do I turn a free text sentence into a hyperlink on this forum? How do you link to the middle of a thread? I'm on mac if that matters I don't see any options to link either as a right-click command or as part of the forum options?

2) Thank you for that link, I feel way behind if that question was answered in 2014. Wish more of this info was collected somewhere easily accessible, like a wiki or printed materials. Did that particular Runelord thread ever get made like James suggested? I would love to go through and read all the back-thought that I seem to be behind on so I can stop upsetting people with my ignorance.

3*** I have to go to work so I will address further points when I get home. Save my space. I won't be home until 8pm EST. Thanks for the replies!

So, this train of thought linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph requires following through on a number of things and takes maybe one or more leaps of logic:

1. Crafting magic items per the rules requires the creator to have the requisite item creation feat, a number of spells and abilities, and to make a Spellcraft check DC = 5 + caster level + 5 per requirement not filled. The only things that can't be skipped by increasing the Spellcraft DC are the item creation feat and the Spellcraft check.
2. Ungarato was himself mythic and helped to serve as a template for Zutha working towards making himself mythic... He just didn't manage to do so before Earthfall.
3. Ungarato didn't care that Zutha was stronger than him and did canonically work as Zutha's right-hand man and supposedly was also best buds with Zutha.

But based on these we can guess that the Cenotaph was meant for Zutha to become mythic... he just didn't have the time for it to come to fruition. Also, the estimated DC for Zutha making the Cenotaph is likely DC 40, he most likely had all the necessary spells in his spellbook (Gluttonous Tome/Sihedron Tome, either works), but wasn't himself mythic.

Possible requirements for making...

So, Ok I get what you're saying but I would shed some light on this theory from printed materials, though I see where you're trying to go with this.

On page 6 of Mythic Realms we get the majority of Cenotaph's story, I don't believe that it itself is some kind of magical item or even artifact. The Cenotaph is a spire that stretches from the ground to an unstated point in the sky, where the story states there is a naturally occurring gate/portal to the negative energy plane. This is what powers the Cenotaph as far as we can tell. The naturally occurring gateway infuses the tower providing fast healing 5 to undead and negative energy creatures within. Supposedly, this effect also has transformed the waiting armies of both Tar-Baphon and Zutha within into mythical creatures. So if nothing else I would have contended that Zutha may not have been mythic while he was an active Runelord, but should have at least picked up some mythic power in the 10,000 years he's been in there.

Tar-Baphon is also stated to have ascended to mythic power by some encounter within the Cenotaph. It is not stated whether this is due to the negative energy gateway, some encounter with Zutha, or something else. Only that he obtained power within the Cenotaph. In Tar-Baphon's entry on 63 of Mythic Realms, paragraph 2 states "that after unlocking the power of Zutha, Tar-Baphon gained power beyond that of mortals". On page 7 Claiming Mythic Power section states: "How Tar-Baphon first ascended to mythic power remains unknown, but he did so within the Cenotaph..." There is more to that section that is relevant but I don't want to type it all out. While it's possible that the power referred to was not Mythic power (there is some uncertainty whether or not Tar-Baphon was mythic before he arose as a mythic lich), I'd reason there is little else Tar-Baphon could have gained or learned from Zutha if he was only a non-mythic level 18 necromancer. Tar-Baphon does not practice Thessilonian sin magic or rune magic that we know about, and Zutha was not a conquering warlord like Tar-Baphon was. If Zutha himself was not a mythic lich, then he would unlikely be able to guide Tar-Baphon to mythic lichdom. Nor did Tar-Baphon become a lich prior to his battle with Aroden.

Finally, page 6 of mythic realms, Overview and History, paragraph 4 states "Beneath the Cenotaph Zutha's body lies, and his greatest source of power can be found there, amid a sprawling . . . " The Claiming Mythic Power section on page 7 states: "The process to obtaining mythic power at the Cenotaph can be undertaken in many ways, but the two most common are to venture into the Negative Energy Plane....and to reach the site of Zutha's resting corpse in the depths of dungeons below".

All this evidence says to me Zutha should be mythic, even if he was not originally intended to be so, and was intended to be one of the weaker Runelords, too much has been printed that instead shows him to be a massive powerhouse. I would think only Geb and Tar-Baphon are his rivals. It's also fine to assume that he didn't achieve mythic power while he was an active Runelord, but achieved mythic rank as a lich after he sealed himself away in Cenotaph for a few millennia. If I had to stat him on the spot based on my assumptions, I'd call him a Dread Lord Mythic Lich 6 Necromancer 18 or 19. I think the Dread Lord template from Horror Adventures suits what we know of Zutha well, as he wasn't a sterotypical necromancer warlord bent on destroying the world like Tar Baphon, but a glutton who just sat in his realm eating non-stop. His realm may have been superficially beautiful, but it probably had a hopelessly bleak oppression about it, which sits in nice contrast to Geb. While his realm wasn't necessarily a Castle Ravenloft style nightmare realm (nor is he a Cursed Lord), part of his power may stem from his unusual power over Gastash. Also the Runelords tend to be "outside of the box" type characters so this is also something a little different. I also think that if Zutha himself were a mythic lich, than it makes more sense that he might have been able to tutor Tar-Baphon into becoming one as well. I've seen mentioned, but I don't know about the Pure-Blood Azlanti thing, so my math goes like +2 (25PB and PC wealth), +2(lich template), +2(dread lord template), and mythic 6 (+2-3 depending upon how you score it), Final CR of 24-26 depending upon mythic rank and base necromancer level. I don't think this build hurts anything else done except upset the previously mentioned brain-list of Runelord power structure that's not been officially published. Having a CR 24-26 Zutha doesn't invalidate anything from Return of the Runelords.

Ah, the Cenotaph... I think the best explanation for that is Zutha's right-hand man, Ungarato. Ungarato was Barbarian 12/Fighter 7/Marshal 4, so Zutha may have had some help from Ungarato being nearby and fairly loyal towards him too.

Sorry, I don't follow this thought. How are you linking Ungarato and the Cenotaph. Neither is mentioned in the other's official story, nor is either mentioned in the story of the sword of gluttony's entry in A&L.

Also begs the question of why a mythic character would act as a cohort to a non-mythic character of the same character level. But I'd put this aside for now to explore a deeper explanation of how you think Ungarato had something to do with the Cenotaph's creation and mythic empowerment of everything but Zutha.

Honestly, I'd like to know if anyone has anything I missed that can help narrow down any of the level ranges for any of the Runelords that I don't have anything on. Chances are though that most of them are just names mentioned solely in Secrets of Roderic's Cove, sadly.

Other than my disbelief, not really. I think you did an excellent job of estimating stuff that only exists somewhere in the mind or lost chapbook of James. You wrote that Zutha was a CR 15 in the partial stat section when the official statblock lists him as CR 14, but that is an easy typo and doesn't effect your full-powered estimation.

Well, technically speaking, we have no idea exactly how strong any of the previous Runelords of Gluttony were, though while we can estimate Goparlis' and maybe Aethusa's levels, Atharend and Kaliphesta are more difficult since Atharend was killed by Xanderghul which allows for any level from 17-20 and just isn't helpful, but can allow for a level above Zutha's.

Precisely why I was miffed to find out that Zutha is only level 18-19 with no mythic tiers. And thank you for linking out your thread again, I'd respond to it but I'm not quite sure what to say. It seems that all of the RLsofGlut were about the same level of power give or take. The timeline in book 1 lists only Xanderghul and Sorshen as achieving mythic status, so the rest of the RLsofGlut are best 20th level Necromancers. Personally, if Zutha wasn't "the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion's surface until Tar-Baphon himself", than I'd like to think he was at least the most powerful of all of the Runelords of Gluttony.

Jacob's point that raw level/mythic tiers isn't the only manifestation of power is salient. A 1st level aristocrat king/queen in charge of a huge empire could be powerful if armed with magic items of a 20th level PC, surrounded by multiple high-level loyal retainers, and had a creative vision to do something or many things on an epic scale. Still isn't quite so satisfying though, I think, as being personally powerful.

Having dug around little I came upon a 2011 thread where baron arem heshvaun quotes a post from James having listed the Runelords in descending order of power: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n9i7?Power-levels-of-the-various-Runelords . I did not find the original post but it's as good as anything else.

Also to be fair towards my own points, a Zutha who is a Necromancer 13 CR 14 is not 1/3 as powerful as anything the Pathfinder system can create by hard rules unless you'd want to argue that wizards grow exponentially more powerful (which I'm sure most people would) and thus a shadow-aspect of Zutha as a Necromancer 13 with shadow gear is about 1/3 as powerful as say Lich Necromancer 19 and PC level gear and multiple artifacts and an entire realm of riches and servants at his disposal. In this respect, the Zutha scenario may have been better suited to book 2 where a CR 7 Zutha could have been 1/3 the power level of a CR 21 Runelord as Dryad envisioned. (There are a lot of ways to make the story clean, but I like the whole 1/3 power in fitting with manifesting 1/3 of Zutha's essence from 1/3 of his phylactery). Of course the scenario works just fine as written in book 3 as well.

So if this is the case (and it seems all but set in stone) that Zutha is non-mythic and not even max-level, how in the world did he create the Cenotaph? And why does he not benefit from his/its/Negative Energy Plane's ability to grant mythic power to other creatures but not himself. I can understand the mechanical reason of " because PLOT!" but my lore-hunger is not sated if that's the best we got. Maybe we'll find out in Tyrant's Grasp!!!!

None of that really means anything though, none of the previous Runelord's of Gluttony are officially noted anywhere save for a name and years of rule. They aren't mentioned in any timeline at all, and to the best of my knowledge don't have any magic items, spells, or places attested to them. This could mean that other Runelords were successful in erasing their legacies from the world, but it could also mean that they were merely "typical" archwizards of no special note or extraordinary accomplishment.

So this thread is now officially WAAAAAAAY off topic. Sorry all.

Shouldn't that be Sorcerer 20+? I thought the whole argument between Geb and Nex was Sorcerer vs Wizard ...

Everywhere that I can find a statline for Geb (Pathfinder Wiki, Inner Sea Magic p6) lists Geb as a Necromancer 20+.

Would you say it's possible the spell "Create Greater Demiplane" simply did not exist before Earthfall?

As a quick response to this question, page 18 of Arcane Anthology, Runes of Wealth, the spellbook "Runes of Wealth (Level 18 Transmuter)" counts among it's 9th level spells Create Greater Demiplane. The spellbook is supposedly attributed to Runelord Haphrama, who proceeded Karzoug as the Runelord of Greed. Granted, the entry leaves open for debate whether or not the tome is faithful copy of the original, let alone the actual spellbook possessed by the Runelord, but does not expressly eliminate the potential for the Create Demiplane series of spells to have at least been created during or before that era, if not in general circulation. This is irregardless of Xenocrat's point that multiverse wide spell circulation is a thing, as evidenced by all the original D&D greyhawk spells that are present in Pathfinder like Mord's Disjunction, Mansion, Sword, etc.

So I will just do what Jacob said and make up the answer for myself at my own table and argue my evidence to any GMs I play with. Again, to restate: Rise and Return are immensely satisfying stories in a vacuum and are what made me fall in love with Thassilonian lore to begin with, but there are some incongruities left open that I wish I knew more about. I'm sorry James for having offended you.

Also, as a side note: I would pay good money for the published statblock of all major characters in Golarion, regardless of whether or not I agreed with them or if they ended up officially retconing previously published materials. I am adaptable and a reasonable person, I just like statblocks and I like my lore congruent and officially published somewhere I have easy and organized access to.

Side-side note. Looking through other major necromancers of the world, the only other one that seems like he would hold a candle to Zutha would have been Geb, who does not have official statblocks but is officially listed as a Ghost Necromancer Wizard 20+. Like Zutha, he has a whole city listed in Mythic Realms, which provide mythic trials and is host to Arazni, a CR 26/MR8 creature that was created by and subservient to Geb himself. That speaks volumes about his candidacy as Zutha's chief rival to the claim of "most powerful necromancer before Tar-Baphon". If anyone cares, does anyone else know of any other necromancers in contention?

So, to back up a little, I will try to modify my writing a bit to make you less upset as I understand that my speech/writing is often forward and blunt even though it's not intentionally provocative. I DO, actually appreciate the quick responses you've provided even if they're not satisfying to me personally. I appreciate the effort and fact that you're willing to engage.

I also don't really know who you are or your history with Paizo, so I don't really know what you do and don't know, what you did or did not approve of, or what license your job has to change past material or not. Likewise you may not have encyclopedic knowledge of your product line, nor do I have an encyclopedic knowledge of what has been erratad (or is desired to be erratad by current developers) or what is intended but not written in stone somewhere I have access to. I only know what I read, and even then Pathfinder is not my job, it's only a hobby that I like a lot, so I only really know material that interest me, where as you probably have to have a broader knowledge of everything. Ask me something about Numeria and I won't have the faintest clue. And while I wouldn't dare call myself some self-appointed expert on Thessilonian lore, I try to devour it when I can find it because I love it. So if I get a little frustrated with answers that don't match my current resources on the subject, it's only because I like the subject enough to care about it and its consistency.

I came by tonight because I had a few burning questions and dared to ask rather than try to read through endless posts to try and find an answer. Glad for the input. But I think I'll sign off now.

Umm...don't take this as being rude James, but page 6 of Mythic Realms "The Cenotaph" Overview and History Paragraph 2: " The Cenotaph's creator was none other than Zutha, the terrible Runelord of Gluttony, master of the Thessilonian realm of Gastash, and the greatest necromancer to grace Golarion's surface until Tar-Baphon himself".

I understand you make the rules but your answer "2) He's not even close to the "most powerful Necromancer" before Tar-baphon." doesn't satisfy my lore craving. Appreciate your response all the same but I don't accept that answer.

I actually just read another thread from this AP while I was online and noted that James states he had a full power version of Xanderghul but not Zutha. Quick off OP question related to that since James is kindly responding to this post. 1) how in the world is Zutha only level 18/19 no mythic tiers and creating artifacts like the Gluttonous Tome and Cenotaph? 2) How could he possibly be the most powerful Necromancer pre Tar-Baphon and had given him the secret to Mythic lichdom, and have a mythic tower full of mythic undead but himself not be mythic? 3) BOOK3 STATS OUT ZUTHA AS NECROMANCER 13 but the runewalking ritual states its summons Zutha at 1/3 his power...13 is not 1/3 of 18.

From my understanding of Azlant/Thessilon history, The Runelords were generally considered the most powerful wizards anywhere in the world during that era. Despite this only 4 of their number ascended to mythic rank. Sorshen (oh how my blood boils to think of it) decided to go the Trickster and thus loses out. Alaznist was only mythic tier 4. I don't think there is any canonical evidence of Zutha being an Archmage though we could assume he was (unless Paizo decided to make him a Marshal or something just to through us all off again, or a mythic lich like Tar-Baphon more likely).

Now I stated in my first post that it makes sense that Xanderghul could not create demiplane because he does not have access to the conjuration school, but as an Archmage 10 he certainly could have the Sanctum path ability and used that. It's possibly that Xanderghul alone possessed that path ability, and I would think as the Runelord of Pride it would warm his green little heart to flaunt such a powerful and easy escape method over the others who had to toil away on multiple bogus artifacts to try and escape in the absurdly identical method they all chose to try.

Now I'm not a regular on these forums so I don't know if every word that pours forth from James on these forums is canon or not, but the answer of "Lore reason: Because they wanted a stronger solution achieved via artifact level magic or the like rather than just a plain old spell." doesn't sit well with me because of Sloth. Create Lesser Demiplane is only 7th level and I think it would fit nicely with the general theme if Krune (Runelord of Sloth) had invented such a spell as the minimal amount of effort necessary to escape out by roughly the same means. Instead he goes through some elaborate process of separating his soul into a gem and then sending his gem into a dungeon somewhere while his body sleeps in a tomb and some token things are distributed to his minions to help him wake up. Likewise, when Belimarius's own attempt at a Runewell initially failed, she could have researched such a spell rather than trusting another Runelord to just giver her the secrets of creating an artifact, even for a mountain of gold.

I can only assume at this point that 5 Runelords attempted the same demiplane/runewell combo because they were more in competition with each other over who could do it better than because it was the optimal solution to the problem.
EDIT: Originally said 7, but I don't think Krune or Zutha actually made Runewell/Eyes.

That only leaves out Alaznist as not having a reasonably expedient method of escaping Earthfall if the Create Demiplane series of spells weren't in play. If they were on the otherhand, and she knew of them, she could have just Wished to recreate the spells. So having to design the Runewell of Wrath and the Eye of Fury make sense in her plot to an extent.

Certainly Create Demiplane was not available when Rise of the Runelords was first published, but it was by the Anniversary Edition and by the new release of Return of the Runelords. In my opinion the story Paizo wrote for both Rise and Return was immensely satisfying in a vacuum, but not in the greater history of the world.

WOW, thanks for the fast reply James. Appreciate the input.

Was hoping for a bit of a discussion and theorizing by the community, but I guess I'll just slink back off to my corner of the interwebs now.

So just a quick lore question, why did the Runelords all pursue such round-about and faulty methods to escape Earthfall, creating their various demiplanes tied to runewells with elaborate pre-requisite contingency to revive them? What was the purpose for wizards of the generally absurd level of power they possessed? Alaznist and Xanderghul were the only two who don't have access to the conjuration school, and thus "Create Greater Demiplane", so it makes a little bit more sense that they had to create some alternative means of escape. They rest of the Runelords should all have just permancy'd a Create Greater Demiplane and they would have accomplished the same result.

But why did they bother trying to hibernate in the first place? Why didn't they just go world/dimension hoping for a couple hundred years or so while they waited out the effects of Earthfall like most high-powered mages. Or like, teleport to the opposite side of the world and just survived as necessary after they saw the effects of Earthfall.

magnuskn wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Fallyna wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

While I'm all for "cleaning my pantaloons with magic" effects

The reverse was far more entertaining, as I can recall at least one occasion when I stealthily used Prestidigitation to soil the drawers of an enemy noble at a Grand Ball, then had another PC loudly point it out to everyone around them, letting them draw their own conclusions. Instant social suicide for that noble and a high CR enemy removed from future social encounters. Cheesy, but fun. :)

Like lots of other spells, Prestidigition has been heavily nerfed from the PF1 version, but feels worse because it was always used to enhance roleplay, rather than combat. It'll be missed.

Do you think that a 0-level at-will cantrip should have that big narrative powers?

Why the hell not? It was a fun, innovative thing to do. Again, killing fun should not be objective of the game.

Also, mechanically the guy should have gotten a save, because someone used magic against stuff he was wearing. Furthermore, and I know this is subject to interpretation for many GM's, if he gets a save, he knows magic has been used against him.

Also also, even if we take the situation as is, while the guy was removed from future social encounters, you can be pretty sure that he would try to take his revenge on the PC who embarassed him in some other way, maybe by hiring assassins to take him out. Roleplay! Consequences!

Casters should be able to use 0-level cantrips which require saves only if the GM feels like it while martials should jump the hoops of multiple skill checks and be just plain unable to match a 0-level cantrip at all?

This isn't fun. This is driving the "casters do cool things, you get to stand and watch" further. I can see how, by being a caster player, you didn't notice that.

So having seen a lot of your posts elsewhere, I think you should just be a DM and ban magic from your tables. Like just play a low magic setting and make people play barbarians, fighters and rogues. Or else find a table where other people want to play just pure martials in a low/no magic setting. Then you can have your fun without nerfing the system for those of us who like magic, and think magic should be special. You can always REMOVE something from the game, but its a lot harder for individual tables to build a system into their game.

Or why don't you just play a caster? Stop hating a join the dark side?

Love the story, disappointed none of your people wanted to play an arcane caster, but at least everyone had fun! Actually everyone in your party played all the classes I care the least about :( Oh well

Most distressing. Although I've heard rumors that this seems to run contrary to what people who have actually played have experienced. I wonder if its because you ran your own encounters rather than Paizo scripted encounters.

Anyone else playtesting want to try and duplicate these encounters?

I'd be interested to hear more about your Wizards experience, as that is the primary class I play and if 2e screws that up than nothing will make me switch. Also the paladin because that is the other major archtype I enjoy.

Couple of questions:

1: What spell selection did the wizard loadout? 6th level wizard has about 12 spells?, you probably don't remember but please provide a general feel if they were going for more of a magus build with the fighter dedication, or a blaster or control wizard or summoner or buffer or what were they using their magic to do? Did they specialize in a school or were universalist?

2: Was control magic effective in any of your encounters? It sounds like you guys just brawled with limited to no tactical considerations.

3: What do you mean by spells were not powerful enough? Not powerful in comparision to what the enemy was doing, not powerful enough compared to melee options, or just ineffective due to spell DCs? What combat spells specifically were you looking at, because you state that cantrips were "appreciated" but were they effective at replacing basic strikes or crossbow shots? You seem to indicate no, and that a wizard swing a shortsword was more effective.

EDIT: Cut question #4, sorry, read AoO and was thinking AoE in my mind.

Sticky thread please?

EJDean wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

4) It makes every spell with a save more complicated. While the new 4 degrees of success enables the designer more knobs to fine tune spells, it does mean spells are not easy to remember and will have to be looked up all the time. Fireball, reflex save or half damage. Now it 4 possibilities and these won't all me simple damage modifiers. Some spells place...

From the one session we played, the four degrees of success instead of two did slow us down. It remains to be seen how much that will improve over time.

I imagine a high level caster will be a handful to organize.

It already is, but high-level caster players tend to develop or bring resources to help them remember things. I like using spell-cards I can flick through that show me relevant info of the spells I commonly prepare. I also like card games so flicking through cards at the table gives my hands something to do so my add brain can stay focused on the game. I wish Paizo had their own tool for this, rather than having to do it yourself, but Perram's Spellbook was a good resource in 1e.

There's no amount of time that would be guaranteed to be sufficient. You could release the game to playtest, find a lot of issues, make a lot of changes to fix them, release the game to a second playtest, find a lot of new issues, make a lot of changes to fix them, release the game to a third playtest, find a lot of new issues...

This. Honestly though, no. 6 months for a beta wasn't enough for WoW BfA and they have the ability to iterate on feedback relatively rapidly, unlike Paizo and their mostly paper product. It *could* be too difficult to get all the playtesters on the same page if they start releasing multiple copies of the rulebook.

Although I think they should re-release the rulebook at least once, and soon. Preferably in a much more streamlined format following the innumerable critiques people have put out regarding the pdf's formating. I feel like 95% of people's complaints right now either boil-down-to or are severely-magnified-by their inability to navigate the rulebook very well. Myself included. Or at least maybe a couple of "guide to the rulebook" type supplements that teach people the stuff they seem to commonly be misinterpreting? Not sure.

Lets talk about the elephant in the room, +1/Level to Proficiency. No, I don't want to discuss the merits of it, we've already got a dozen threads on that very subject. What I want to do is talk about solutions, and I think I have one. We've got two schools of thought that want to play different games, so lets do just that. Let's make P2 two separate games, Bound and Unbound. It would require one rulebook with some additions explaining the two ways to calculate proficiency, a static DC table, and some other minor tweaks. As for a Bestiary, print an unbound and bound version. Bare with me, it isn't as crazy as it sounds.

...

Proficiency's built in level scaling simply adds your levels to each of those things, friend and foe making Unbound and Bound functionally identical against equal level threats. When compared to lower leveled threats you rapidly outpace them, against stronger foes they are vastly more powerful. This is intentional from the designers, it makes heroes extremely heroic, and...

I like this idea a lot. +1 to you good sir.

Excellent it's actually in multiple places, thanks Milo and Alyran for also responding, Sorry to be foolish everyone.

/thread

Nevermind, crisis averted found it on page 291. I think they should have put that in the chart directly above the text box but I finally read it. Thanks Bardarok and ENHenry for responding.

AshVandal wrote:

Bardarok wrote:

It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.

Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26

Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20

OMG Thank you for at least responding.

Ok you're using different numbers than I did but I can work through this,

Wizard level is added to opposed DC due to my understanding of the proficiency check. Creating a DC of 15, 16 in your example with Int 20.

Fighter 11 has an automatic + 13 to roll (level +1[expert] + 1 Dex) resulting in Die Roll +13 = Roll 3 or greater to succeed or 13 for crit success.

I think you are missing that base 10. The fighter gets to roll a d20. The Wizard doesn't roll but the DC is 10 + Proficiency + Int.

DC =/= Proficiency + Int
DC = 10 + Proficiency + Int

Ok, I believe you, I just need to see it. Please what page of the doc is the DC base 10 on? I knew I was overlooking something.

It's a little bit unclear but are you adding wizards lvl to spell DC? the proficiency should be symmetric.

Lvl 11 Wizard (20 Int, Trained)
DC = 10 + 11 Trained + 5 Int = 26

Lvl 11 Fighter (12 Dex, Expert)
Die Roll + 12 Expert +1 Dex = Success on a 13 critical success on a 20

OMG Thank you for at least responding.

Ok you're using different numbers than I did but I can work through this,

Wizard level is added to opposed DC due to my understanding of the proficiency check. Creating a DC of 15, 16 in your example with Int 20.

Fighter 11 has an automatic + 13 to roll (level +1[expert] + 1 Dex) resulting in Die Roll +13 = Roll 3 or greater to succeed or 13 for crit success.

Every time I post this it messes up because I'm going to fast and am not checking my work, because I'm upset. Sorry everyone if there's double posts everywhere, but I need this resolved right now or soon or I will not be able to sleep. I'm sure that I'm wrong, I just can't see it. Please someone just tell me I'm stupid, to calm down and how I messed up this calculation. There is no way the basic math of PF2e is this fundamentally wrong. I won't be offended, someone just please tell me I can't math or I don't know how to play or something as long as you show the math about how the saving throws are more even than what I calculated.

For reference, I don't know the rules that well. I did all the research and reading as I was formulating this post, which is in response to the posters you see quoted. I'm sorry I'm stupid, I get like this sometimes, where my brain locks up and I can't see my errors. So please someone just calmly explain my mistake to me.

Megistone wrote:

wakedown wrote:

How deep have folks looked at fireball?

We haven't had a ton of enthusiasm here on wizards or sorcerers, mostly because of a perception (which may be true or false) that mid-level doesn't look "as fun anymore".

I don't think the PF1e core Fireball was overpowered. It was later on when folks picked up metamagic rods of maximize, empower and/or selective and were cross-blooded and what-not that fireball was problematic on the power scale.

Where does theorycrafting on PF2e fireball stand? (I imagine concrete playtesting is pretty limited at this stage)

A Fireball starts at 6d6 and doesn't move if you don't heighten the spell; in exchange its DC does scale with level, and it didn't in PF1.

This isn't exactly true as far as I can tell, but I'm only armchair theorycrafting at this point so I may be wrong. Anyways:

Spell DC technically scales with level, but Saving Throws also scale with level, so the result is a functional wash within standard difficulty encounters. Spell DC does scale up at certain break-points, specifically at levels 12, 16, and 19, when the caster (looking specifically at wizard because that's all I care about) gets their proficiency increases, assuming targets never gain a related saving throw increase. Otherwise the proficiency bonus is static throughout those level ranges. Which means a mage will have DC = (Die Roll) + (Int Mod) + (Level) from level 1-11. The comparison is hard because the systems are different and the specific target you chose to attack may make a huge difference, but I chose something easy for me to reference.

Compare Wizard casting fireball, Caster Level 11, 18 Int (+4 mod), against 3 fighters, levels 8, 11, 14, with Dex 12 (+1 Mod), no encumbrance or dex penalities; no relevant modifiers (feats, magic items, etc) on either side

PF1e: 
Fireball: 10 (base DC) + 4 (int mod) + 3 (spell level) = DC 17

PF2e: 
Fireball: 11 (trained proficiency [level +0], lvl 11) + 4 (int mod) = DC 15

PF1e: 

Fighter 8: Die roll +2 (base reflex mod) + 1 (dex mod) = 14 (min die roll to succeed) 
Fighter 11: Die roll + 3 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 13 (min die roll) 

Fighter 14: Die roll + 4 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 12 (min die roll)

PF2e: (fighters are expert in reflex) 

Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 9 (level +1) = 5 (min die roll to succeed) 

Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +12 (level +1) = 2 (min die roll) 

Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 15 (level +1) = auto

Even if fighters are only trained in reflex: 

Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 8 (level) = 6 (min die roll to succeed) 

Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +11 (level) = 3 (min die roll) 

Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 14 (level) = auto

* note that Full Plate still allows a +1 Dex mod; and given the above data, I'm not going to bother looking up bulk encumbrance rules to see it a fighter carrying a battleship on their back suddenly allows the wizard to hit them.
**note that these super low saves means that these fighters will critically succeed at a much higher rate, taking ZERO damage. At least in PF1e, they would take half damage.

Someone please double check me, but I'm pretty sure this works out. If it doesn't than I'm sorry I don't have a great grasp of the rules just yet. If it does, I might need to post this on a seperate thread to see if it attracts an official response. Thanks Wakedown for forcing me to do the math.
...

wakedown wrote:

How deep have folks looked at fireball?

We haven't had a ton of enthusiasm here on wizards or sorcerers, mostly because of a perception (which may be true or false) that mid-level doesn't look "as fun anymore".

I don't think the PF1e core Fireball was overpowered. It was later on when folks picked up metamagic rods of maximize, empower and/or selective and were cross-blooded and what-not that fireball was problematic on the power scale.

Where does theorycrafting on PF2e fireball stand? (I imagine concrete playtesting is pretty limited at this stage)

A Fireball starts at 6d6 and doesn't move if you don't heighten the spell; in exchange its DC does scale with level, and it didn't in PF1.

This isn't exactly true as far as I can tell, but I'm only armchair theorycrafting at this point so I may be wrong. Anyways:

Spell DC technically scales with level, but Saving Throws also scale with level, so the result is a functional wash within standard difficulty encounters. Spell DC does scale up at certain break-points, specifically at levels 12, 16, and 19, when the caster (looking specifically at wizard because that's all I care about) gets their proficiency increases, assuming targets never gain a related saving throw increase. Otherwise the proficiency bonus is static throughout those level ranges. Which means a mage will have DC = (Die Roll) + (Int Mod) + (Level) from level 1-11. The comparison is hard because the systems are different and the specific target you chose to attack may make a huge difference, but I chose something easy for me to reference.

Compare Wizard casting fireball, Caster Level 11, 18 Int (+4 mod), against 3 fighters, levels 8, 11, 14, with Dex 12 (+1 Mod), no encumbrance or dex penalities; no relevant modifiers (feats, magic items, etc) on either side

PF1e:
Fireball: 10 (base DC) + 4 (int mod) + 3 (spell level) = DC 17
PF2e:
Fireball: 11 (trained proficiency [level +0], lvl 11) + 4 (int mod) = DC 15

PF1e:
Fighter 8: Die roll +2 (base reflex mod) + 1 (dex mod) = 14 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll + 3 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 13 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll + 4 (base reflex mod) +1 (dex mod) = 12 (min die roll)

PF2e: (fighters are expert in reflex)
Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 9 (level +1) = 5 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +12 (level +1) = 2 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 15 (level +1) = auto

Even if fighters are only trained in reflex:
Fighter 8: Die roll + 1 (dex mod) + 8 (level) = 6 (min die roll to succeed)
Fighter 11: Die roll +1 (dex mod) +11 (level) = 3 (min die roll)
Fighter 14: Die roll +1 (dex mod) + 14 (level) = auto

* note that Full Plate still allows a +1 Dex mod; and given the above data, I'm not going to bother looking up bulk encumbrance rules to see it a fighter carrying a battleship on their back suddenly allows the wizard to hit them.

**note that these super low saves means that these fighters will critically succeed at a much higher rate, taking ZERO damage. At least in PF1e, they would take half damage.

Someone please double check me, but I'm pretty sure this works out. If it doesn't than I'm sorry I don't have a great grasp of the rules just yet. If it does, I might need to post this on a seperate thread to see if it attracts an official response. Thanks Wakedown for forcing me to do the math.

EDIT: I think I will at least wait through the night before I throw a fit on the forums and quit the playtest. SOMEONE, PLEASE, PROVE MY MATH WRONG!!!

Bugleyman, get a handful of writers in a room and they could knock out a new ruleset in a few months.

You mentioned the simulationism of needing a magic sword to up your damage. I rather dislike that. It's weird to me that a high-level mage can, y'know, cast any spell he has without needing a 'high-level magic staff,' but a high-level fighter isn't that threatening with a mundane dagger.

In this case, I want the game to simulate fantasy fiction. And in fantasy fiction, the heroes never need magic items to be heroic.

(You'd still need to figure out something interesting for magic weapons to do, but adding extra damage dice ain't it.)

As someone who plays arcane casters 90% or more of my playtime, I'm actually OK with having to have more powerful magic items to keep my magic strong, as long as it actually does it, and the DM stops doing dickish crap like having imps steal my spellbook while I sleep and lets everyone else keep their gear (luckily most DMs don't do that stuff anymore unless all the PCs lost all their gear). In games where the DM lets me, I inevitably craft magic staffs that do things like Heighten spells by 1 and/or apply metamagic rod effects X times a day as I cast and such.

As it stands right now however, you're kinda getting your wish. Caster spells don't seem to scale unless the caster prepares/upcasts those spells with higher level spell slots.