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I was wondering what exactly happens to a flying creature, when knocked prone.
For example a flying dragon hit by a clashing rock spell
Go to clashing-rocks.

- according to the Gunslingers targeting ability flying creatures are falling by getting knocked prone.
and according to the falling rules
Go to Falling.
the Dragon gets knocked prone when he crashes in the ground.
- what implies that the dragon also would get damage from his fall.
and evtually is suffering damage from the clashing rocks hitting its head.

my question now is, is there any way to avoid getting knocked prone for the dragon.
I see two possibilities - he has feather fall spell prepared or is falling long enough to get to his turn - meaning he is flying high enough that he is still falling to his next turn.
But the height the dragon would have to get to his turn while still falling is´nt stated in the falling section. - the next close thing would be the 500ft to cast a spell - what is normally a standard action.

And i was also wondering what happens to a creature which can´t be tripped when hit by the spell - does this imply the creature can´t be knocked prone - or it can get the prone condition but source therefore can´t be tripping ?

Well and i´m somewhat intrested if it is just me, who finds the no posibility to not get knocked prone by this spell a little bit harsh.

Will there be a mechanic built around iaijutsu somewhere, or does that fall more into the realm of 'anime fantasy' and less 'historical?' (Not trying to sound like a jerk. I rewrote this sentence three times to fix that.)

I'm not a student of this sort of thing, and I guess all iaijutsu is drawing the sword in a swift and efficient manner, but in fiction (most notably Rurouni Kenshin, which is probably far more extreme than I'd be interested in seeing...) it is used in combat to one effect or another.

"...with the emphasis upon defense during daily life, it was also generally assumed that combatants would be armed with a katana worn "edge-up" and thrust through a sash around the waist, and that combatants would be fighting unarmored. These assumptions result in a drastically different approach to combat than when combatants are armored and fighting on the battlefield."

I imagine it would be useful to be able to do some fast and furious deterrent-damage if you're attacked in public or at night while unarmored. I'm just curious, because its one of those things I've always thought was cool about the samurai stereotype, and I would like to see it done. I wasn't satisfied by the mechanics in the 3.0 Oriental Adventures.

Does Paizo have any sort of plan for this in the future?

I´m totally with you on this. There is nothing that i would like to see more than some sort of really cool and usefull iaijutsu - after all Katanas were forged with the intention in mind to allow a fast drawing with a simultaneous deadly slash in one sweeping motion -

Then to be honest i was really disappointed by the WotC samurai - that was nothing more than a lame Ranger/Fighter Variant.
And since Paizo didn´t add this in the APG as such i expect to see something cool utilizing the one most cool thing Samurai´s were able to pull the iaijutsu.

Actually i hope the Samurai will be built around iaijutsu and some new two-weapon-fighting variants. or that there is at least one variant of the samurai who specializes in this.

Well - this is very intresting

in my group we handled this so:

B gets hit by A (Ini 10) with two poison arrows
(Large scorpion venom injury 17 — 1/rd. for 6 rds. 1d2 Str 1 save)
B gets then hit by C (ini 9) again with the same poison
B (ini 5) makes his save at 21 with the duration for 6 rounds - he has to save two times to be cured meaning regardless of the increase of the DC it only requires him two save during the poisons duration -

if B gets hit again by C or A with the same poison in the next round the DC of the poison gets +2 and adds one round to the duration (to 6).

- to handle it this way was in my opinion the logical conclusion.
it makes the extreme expensive posions useful, even against "strong" opponents, and doesn´t result in some overly expensive good for nothing flavor. (especially in regards to poison which require only one save to be cured)

but after i read this thread - with regards to how the afflictions rules are written (when exposed you have to save) -
and the things Jason Bulmahn wrote - I´m honestly not so sure if this is a good way too handle posions even it is currently in the rules that way.

i mean the situation is the same as before

B gets hit by A (Ini 10) with two poison arrows
(Large scorpion venom injury 17 — 1/rd. for 6 rds. 1d2 Str 1 save)
B has to save two times DC 17
B gets then hit by C (ini 9) again with the same poison
B makes another save DC 17

so and what exactly happens then ?

1) the posion requires two saves to be cured - so if B was able to save all 3 initial saves (i mean he saved 3 times) is he no longer effected by the posion which only requires 2 saves ?
2) B was able to save all 3 initial saves - meaning when its B´s turn he has to make a save against DC 21 to be cured because he saved against all 3 initial doses ?
3)B was able to save against the two doses applied by A but not against the doses from C.
Does he now require to make one save at his turn DC 21 to save to be cured - he saved two times already - or does he have to save two times against DC 21 to be cured ? what happens in following rounds if new doses are inflicted ?
- or does he have to save one time at DC 21 to cure the formerly inflicted poison doses from A which he saved once against already so that he has to make in the following round one save agaisnt DC 17 against the posion from C - because by saving against DC 21 he saved once against this dose already ?????
4) or do you have to track the poison in dependance of the Ini when it was afflicted - you look independent at the poison inflicted from A and C.
meaning that B in his turn (or alternatively at the turn of A and C) has to save against the poison from A DC 19 and against the poison from C DC 17 - the two sources of the same poison not stacking.
what if he saved against one initial posion inflicted by A but not against the other - does B require now one or two saves to be cured ?
What happens if A or C change their ini by reading an action etc ???
5) or all instances of infliction viewed seperatly, but then what about the stacking of the save DC ? - makes absolutely no sense

you see - in my opinion that makes things somewhat complicated, especially if the GM has to keep track of this in addition to all the other stuff he has to handle.
but perhaps i´m the one looking at this in way too complex manner -

I´m aware that Mystra is dead -
but the fact that someone is trying to use the feat, by mentioning Magic of Faerun let me assume that in his campaign Mystra or a smiliar entity, able to bestow this gift would be present.

I´m also aware that there are classes which favour the use of the spellfire, i actually played one.

and in fact you are right it is only "rare" i think the wording in the faerun campaign setting - was something like "legend hold that only one person in all Faerun is giftes with true Spellfire at a time "
of course it is up to The GM what to make with these sentences as in general all regarding the campaign is up to the GM.

My sole intention was to warn about the consequences of spellfire using the setting in which this ability was introduced as example.

The spell does not function until they leave the anti-magic field. The first function of the spell is initial infliction, if they had to save against it while in the field it would be functioning in some fashion by forcing this save. The fighter makes no save until he leaves the field, at which point the buffs are working again.

Flesh to stone would simply not function until they left, meaning that this is a good case for staying in the field. Or using one as a temporary cure.

Basically, as soon as the field and spell meet, the spell is put on "pause." If this happens during the initial cast... nothing, not even a save happens until it is unpaused.

At least, that's how I interpret this. In my home games I just have any spell initially cast in the field be dispelled (if it allows SR) for simplicity. Spells that don't allow SR can be cast from outside in, but not any other combination in said home games.

Yeah on first sight i probably would rule the same way - but i got a problem with the fact that the spells have a duration.

Spellfire is supposed to be powerful.
its a rare gift granted by the Faerun goddes of magic herself to a single choosen ONE.
And at all times there is only one person in existance who is able to wield spellfire.
Not even her Daugthers "the seven sisters" and neither Elminster have acces to this power, despite being the probably most powerful group of persons on Faerun. - the so called choosen of Mystra only wield in nearly every aspect inferrior version of spellfire named silverfire, which itself is quite powerful but only granted to her choosen and most loyal followers -

So in this context if you consider to allow a player to pick this feat in whatever setting. you should make the fact that this character is wielding spellfire, one of the main points of your campaign or even the story part most essential for your campaign.
Because this is a power which is able in the hands of the right person to tip the balance of power in several ways, and nearly every spellcaster who lust´s for power is after the spellfire. Meaning that a wielder is hunted down by nearly every "evil" organisation there is on Faerun if it´s known he posses the gift.

So when playing on Faerun this means every Necromancer MAnshoon, Fouzl The Red Wizards ..... are all after this single one Character in your group with the sole aim the get their hands on the Spellfire.

So if you want to make your campaign into something like this, and you make the player CLEAR what exactly this means for him - then go ahead -
but if not - you should refrain from allowing to pick this one.

Then even if the other players are ok that the campaign revolves to a great part around the manhunt of one of their members. the Spellfire gives this char a very powerful edge in combat (especially on low levels), which is exspecially hard on every other arcane caster in the group.
So if you have an other arcane caster in the group i personally would really think this over again.
If not and the others are okay with it go ahead.

P.S. In my opinion by using the spellfire on char you already labeled this char as more than special. this char got the attention of a Goddes who gave him this gift with a purpose.
So the char is either destined to become epic lvl21+ or die by fullfilling what he was supposed to do.

I would like to know how to rule the following situation.

There´s a Fighter under the effect of an antimagicfield - this Fighter posses various means of buffs & items which boost his saves, which are of course supressed by the antimagicfield.

Outside the Antimagifield is a Wizard casting a spell like sleep on the Fighter. - so what happens under the following presumption that the fighter would fail its save against the spell without it´s buffs ?

A. Does the Fighter have to save against the spell with his current supressed saves and then suffers the spell´s full effect after leaving the antimagic field ?

or

B. Does the Fighter have to save against the spell which was cast during inside the antimagicfield on him when he leaves the antimagicfield and his buffs as the spell cast on him start function again ? and what about Flesh to stone which effect is instantaneous and its duration permanent ?

How many of you in this thread have played a high level barbarian and can speak from experience?

Actually i DO. Im gming a group of lvl 17 chars -

Long story short, the barbarian OWNED everyone and everything!

That´s exactly the same conclusion i arrived at.

Especially with the Invulnerable Rager from the APG (DR 10 at lvl 20) combined with the extra DR rage powers (three of those), so DR 13/- at highest level.

Add to that superstition (way too good in my book, every barbarian takes it, so that says something), reckless abandon, come&get me, ...

The barbarian has virtually no weaknesses left... No sneaking him, no flanking him, trapsense, very good saves all round now (high dex as usual, and superstition for those pesky will saves). 'Per Rage' powers which are there every round (free action to go in and out of rage, rinse and repeat)

His AC at lvl 20 was like 8 or 10 or something... His damage output and to hit however were through the roof. I posted a while back (I play more than I post) on how the barbarian fared against a CR 23 half red dragon barbarian 20... he smashed the pulp out of it in 1,5 rounds. Nuff said.

you are absolutely right about this, but i have to make a little addition than in my opinion you forgot to mention, what happens when the barb takes Stunning assault. that´s the OVERKILL pointed out here.

Intresting question - in short yes.
it ist true that the rage powers so far mentioned are strong - but the one thing that puts the Barb now in the leadposition among all Melee classes is CaGM (Come and Get Me) - combined with combat Refelexes and later on Stunning Assault you have the most powerful class in Melee there is. - actually too powerful in my opinion

Go to Come and Get Me & Stunning Assault.

Funny -
Not too long ago, i had a similiar situation in my group - one of the groups PC body was possesed by a demon Lord, a NPC who often helped the group tried to extract the demon. In this process the Demon took possesion of the NPC (at least tried to)- which resulted that the NPC was in a comatose state - in which the two "souls" harbored by the body of the NPC fought over said body.

The Group knew that in the case the Demon would win it could result in the death of hundreds of thousands innocennts.
So 2 of the chars tricked the others in lowering their guard - so that they had free access to the NPC and then killed the NPC.

i probably should mention - the NPC saved the lives of the PC´s on several occasions and was always loyal to them - and around half of the (players) chars of the group (those tricked) would have died trying to protect the NPC -

So you can imagine those different opinions on how to handle situation combined with action they took nearly resulted in the group killing each other -
what at that point would have been prabably a good thing to happen than this kind of action wasn´t actually foressen by me - they had some better course of options presented to them (a little riskier
tough)
So i had a hard time deciding if i should change their alignment. After some talk with the players about their intentions etc i decided to let them keep theirs. I found it was penalty enough that the trust in the group after this act was no longer existant.

In your case tough - i would really consider an alignment shift exspecially if the players don´t try to at least find a way to fullfill the given mission without killing the innocent girl (for example save the girl cast mind blank on her and find a lately died girl around the same age to substitute her dead body - then you tke the girl into custody of the local authorities ....)- which is by the way in my opinion far TOO old in a medievil setting this girl could have been married a long time ago - and the impact on your conscience of killing a adult woman for the greater good is by far not as great as by killing a newborn - (what really requires assasins to do - because those are the only one aside from psychopaths which could commit this act - and thats clearly an evil act)

what eventually would result in alignment change, if the player who commited this sin isn´t at least atoning for this in some way.
i would require thta the char has to show some changes in his personality, because of what they forced him to do - for example showing no longer mercy against members of this organization - changing his modi of operandum from a clean fighter to someone using every available method to fight this organization at least after he has fullfilled why he infiltrated them.

Well i was wondering what kind of concentration check you have to make, when you (the caster) are grappled an there are some Enemy´s standing close enough that any attenpt to cast would Provoke AoO from them.

Do you have to make 2 concentration checks - one for being grappled and one for defensivly casting - or are these two rolls mixed somehow?

Grappled or pinned while casting 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
Cast defensively 15 + double spell level

As i see it, when you are making a touch attack, your hand (the spell) counts in all regards as a melee weapon, and as such you are subject to a fire shield spell. I mean you can take Weaponfocus(touch attack/spell).

I had a player with this build.

If it becomes too much, just do what I did: disarm him.

The captain of the city guard did this to my player's barbarian when he became unruly within the city limits (having already taken the ego out of a dozen or so city guards). My player learned very quickly that a barbarian without his weapon can't really do much in the way of offense.

Wow i´ve never thought this could happen - someone is actually the "same" opinion as i´am -

Holding two weapons doesn´t necessarily mean that you parry or even try to parry an incoming attack, i mean you get no such a thing as a parry attempt.

As is see the fact you are holding two weapons alone grants you the shield bonus, like holding a shield it makes it harder for an opponent to find an opening in your defense because the ways he is able to attack are limited - he can´t strike you the same way he could if you weren´t holding abything in your off hand.
So he should retain his shield-AC bonus from wielding two-weapons even flat-footed.

So yeah, to sum it up, i still think this combination is too strong.
And no one, so far had the arguments to convince me of the contarary.

So as a matter of fact im currently thinking of some ways, to modify these abilities that, as far as i´m concerned they are playabel.

Well that´s some nice build actually too nice in my opinion the combination of stunning assault (which you definetly should take at 17), combat reflexes and CaGM is too strong.

I tried to point this out here -
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/comeAndGetMeStunningAssault&page=1&source=search#0

As to your point regarding ambushes... any self respecting spellcaster at high levels does not go around without day long buffs in place, as well as constantly using detection spells, alarm spells, and all sorts of other protective means/buffs. Magic items, and lots of things come into play at very high levels as well.

Even for some high level caster with magic items and buffs he would have a hard time getting a AC higher than 40.

What you really run into is a situation the same as most classes, whoever goes first will most likely win, if they are built appropriately. Let me just see how easy it is to dominate person a non-raging barbarian here....

Right - but you can use this sentence always if there is a discussion about something that is allegdly strong you only replace "dominate person" and "barbarian" with the word appropriate to the situation.

As to your crawling away argument, ever heard of step up and following strike? Crawl away from me now.

okay - obiously didn´t see that one coming.

Powerful ? - !powerful was Robilar's Gambit from PHP 2! - but it was not EXACTLY the same - there was this little word AFTER underlined in the descripion, meaning the AoO resulted after the attack of the enemy, CaGM resolves BEFORE, and with stunning assault it Counters the attack which provoked the AoO - that´s beyond powerful.
And the Wizards of the Coast didn´t have !Stunning Assault! in that book or any other (if i remember correct), but they saw it as necessity to underline after - i wonder why ?!?!
Fact is - and thats what i´m trying to say the abilities stunning assault and CaGM are powerful by themselves but in Combination they are far too strong.
by the way Robilar's Gambit could be taken by any class with BAB 12+ and Combat Reflexes.
So at least between the Melee classes every one had the possibility to learn this - it wasn´t exclusive for one class
What is actually adding to the powerfulness of this.
back in 3.5 the Robilar's Gambit balanced itself out ; more or less because everyone could take it -
and now ? -

Come and Get me is not imbalanced, especially since a barbarian can only use it while raging. It is a specific power, with limited use, and situational benefits. It's no different than things like... harm, or wail of the banshee, or a Wish or Miracle. I mean really, "For some negative effects, you may call upon deific intervention for almost limitless effects if you can convince your DM to do it as a 9th level spell" is more overpowered in my opinion than this rage power. It also requires you to have a more Dex based Barbarian, and they are not usually finesse fighters, to say the least. It is powerful, yes, as it should be. But without a powerful niche, the barbarian gets left in the dust. A properly built defensive dex based fighter could dominate a barbarian with this rage power because even a +39 atk bonus (totally possible) still has only a 25% chance of hitting a 54 AC (totally possible for the fighter). It's about character build and inventiveness. Also, remember, it is a party based game, very rarely do you ever have a 1v1, and a well crafted party will be able to overcome any single specialist if played properly. If you ask me, this is far less potent than the Paladin's Smite ability, which is just sickeningly powerful

You honestly think that rage is a limited resource - you can hold it 4+const-mod +2*(barblvl-1) rounds - that sums up really fast - so a barb lvl 17 would get close to 40 rounds in which he can use that., thats hardly a limitations.

you have a point, that there are things to come around this ability, but that i never denied - there are possibilities to get around every abilitie - even the mentioned spells above - and i consent that the final ability of the barb should be strong but it is to strong -

i mean how often can you use wail of the banshee or the like, how often does it succed against someone of the same lvl as you.

The real problem starts not like pointed out agaisnt some fighter like i stated in my last post - then they are the ones who can barely hold their ground against this - the real problem is what happens to the casters their fort base save is 6 at lvl20 - they have a hard time getteing to a bonus higher than 10 - so one single stray Barb which has the "luck" to charge through your partys Melee classes and is able to land this single strike takes the caster out for good - after his full attack the next round as sure as hell forever -

so you can argument what are the odds of this happening the caster can cast fly and whatnot else, but in most battles exspecially if you get ambushed, suprised or the battle results of some Talking to the enemys you aren´t buffed flying etc - and the Melee chars in the group don´t always stand before the casters to protect them - so they are out with absolutely no chance -
and even if you don´t get suprised etc - most of the time you as a caster have better things to do as to cast some fly spell on yourself.

So this ultra imba spells the caster posses don´t make s~*$. the caster dies having them still prepared.

So you can argument the same problem, do you have when the caster gets grappled, triped -
in case of grappled an tripped - you can learn combat manoveur defense greatly reducing the odds of something like this happening, if you still get grappled you can still cast, and your enemy doesn´t get you down in the next round - if you are tripped you can crawl away thus preventing a full attack - so you should still live.

but when you are stunning assaulted you die -

- probably one will again point out, that an CaGM Barb has some drawbacks when +4 on attacks and damage who his opponest get, but what good do these bonuses if you never can put them to use because you are stunned ?

1. Requires three feats to use (Combat Reflexes, PA, Stunning Assault).
2. Only applies when you're raging.
3. Lets your enemies get a +4 penalty to their attack and damage rolls against you.
4. Applies a -10 penalty to your attack rolls (if you're doing PA+SA), or -5 if you just SA.
5. Is useless against ranged attacks.
6. Is useless against opponents with greater reach than you (which is most things you fight at 17th level)
7. Requires you to go somewhat MAD into DEX as a barbarian, which cuts into your resource investment for STR/CON and other items. This might be a good...

I get your point - this is suppoesed to be the capstone of the barbarian´s fighting capabilities.

It is true that this equals the 9th level spells of casters, but you can´t use spells without limitations you get only to cast them a few times a day, the barb doesn´t.
If someone saves against your spell nearly all of them do nothing but fizzle, stunning assault on the other hand deals damage and
you have a chance to even crit despite he saved.
And you also have to consider the save DC of the spells 10+ability-mod+spelllvl+misc
even a 9th lvl spell from a caster who gets +6 on his attribut rarely comes above 29 - you could point out that you only use spells against the opponents weak saves - so you never use a fortitude save spell agaisnt a fighter etc -
whereas stunning assault has a fortitude save which is the strong save of all Melee classes -
but as caster you usually don´t have the luxury of considering this - in most cases you have to use what´s left -

(we discussed the downsides an weaknesses of this combination, so like any other ability you can get around it) but my point is, that you can´t beat it on equal terms, meaning in a one and one match except you have this barb mirror fight himself.

Lets discuss the Scenario of the "optimized" Melee chars one is the Barb and the other a fighter.Both lvl 20.

Barb:
Str:17+2race(human)+5lvlup+6belt+8rage=38
Dex:16+6belt=22
Wielding a two handed weapon - lets say +5magic
meaning attack: 20bab+14str+1waeponfocus+5weapon=40/35/30/25
this means stunning assault at 35/30/25/20 - AoO at 35 stunning
CMD=10+20+14+6+5(ring of deflection)=55
Save DC fpr stunning assault 30Fort:

Fighter:
Str:17+2race(human)+5lvlup+6belt=30
Dex:14+6belt=30
Konst:16+6belt=22
Wielding whatever weapons you like, (but in this case no shield)
That means:
AC:10+14armor(magic+5)+5dex(armor trainig)+5(ring of defelction)+5(amulett of natural armor)=39
plus evtl shield or +1 through dodge or two weapon defense.
His fortitude save would be 12+6(ko-mod)+5(cloak of resistance)=23
CMB:20+10+4(evtuell feats)=34

None of them is using reachwepons or Lunge.
and i didn´t consider crit hits - would only add to the advantage of the barb.

- So let the fight begin
If the the Fighter refraisn from using some underhanded taktik like hit and run or Spring attack (i was wondering if a spring attack, provokes no AoO from CaGM) or something like that.

Normally the barb would start (higher dex), so he declares he is using stunning assault an CaGM
Sceanrio1: The barb walks to the fighter an attacks him considering he is using no shield the barb hits at approx 75% - so the fighter has to save or be stunned he saves at around 65%
a) he gets stunned -> he drops everything loses his turn and its the barbs turn -> he is dead meat (even if he got lucky and the barb was´nt able the stun him in the following round again - highly unlikely - because he provokes at least one attack of opportunity by getting back his weapon(s) and also because of the stunning (takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC) the probabilty for the barb to hit goes up to 100 percent with the first attack (the fighters AC decreases by 7)) so the fighter has to save at least 2 times - because the barb will of course full attack him.
even if is able to avoid getting stunned again - the barb has inflicted a whole lot of damage.

b)1.the fighter doesn´t get stunned so he tries a comabt manoveur, trip disarm whatever - it will probably fail he has a 20% chance to succed. - if you succed you could have a chance of winning.
2. he full attacks -> the barb gets to attack him an equall amount of times he is capable of with the probability of him stunning the fighter. the funny part - the fighter tries (you actually don´t have to hit) to attack, but prior to that the barb AoO you (75% hit) with the probability to get stunned - meaning losing all other attacks and loosing your weapons.
3.the fighter standard attacks at his highest attackbonus - wheter or not this hits the barb he gets an AoO against you - if he doesn´t hit (we remeber 75% chance to hit) or you save the stunning you withdraw, and wait for the barb to follow you and standard attack you again - and so on - the moment you get stunned you lose.
instead of 3 and 4 - you can use the appropriate actions in combination with combat expertise lowering the barbs prob to hit you to approx 45%, if you have a shield you can lower this even further (for example a heavy steel shiel +5 magic with the shield specialization and imprv. shield specialization) to around 5%.

so you really can beat the barb as fighter, if you have a shield - though i never had a player who actually was using a shield -

the intressting part is - try 2 Fighters of the build without shield against the same Barb - or even 3 he will make an exceptionally good fight against them - proabably will even win because of CaGM.
and this is exactly the point where it begins to bother me beyond reason that one lvl 20 melee takes 2 or even more other lvl 20 out.
oh yeah before i forget the also some intressting point, is that the weapon mastery of the fighter which prevents you from being disarmed what i considerd really strong, is completly outdone through stunning.

okay - there are also defending weapons ....
there are also some Team feats which are able to give the fighters some advantage -
and the Fighter could also use stunning assault but unfortunately his chances to stun are lower because of the rage bonus to Konstitution.

So there are ways to get the barb in a pinch - but to be honest, i don´t want to let the barb loot the items which are necessary for a fighter to keep up with him every time a want to challenge him in Melee, without using some monster, magic or ranged attacks.
Then with CaGM are lots of "weak" melee attackers out of question - he will mince them in an instant.

and that is exactly the problem that i see -

I not sure if you all get what i´m implying -

So in this case the barb "dispelled" your attack, which was the reason in the first place that he got the AoO at you. - you get damage are stunned and the barb is unscratched ?!?!?!?!

Stunned

Oh yeah and above all you get disarmed at no risk for the barb to be dissarmed himself. - by the way I was asking myself can you SEE that the barb is using come and get me ?

- back to one of my main points it was posted that szunning assault is an other matter, but stunning assault combined ist exactly what i wanted to have discussed, then the Barb is exactly using this in combination with "come and get me" -

and with all respect that is either way you look at it way too powerful or am i wrong ????

I not sure if you all get what i´m implying -

So in this case the barb "dispelled" your attack, which was the reason in the first place that he got the AoO at you. - you get damage are stunned and the barb is unscratched ?!?!?!?!

There are a couple of reasons:

3. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with reach, as he can't AoO something outside of his reach

3a. #3 above can be obviated with the Strike Back feat - the only downside is that, coupled with Combat Reflexes, that's 2 of the barbarian's 6 feats at 12th level (7 if he's human) that aren't going to "pure offense" feats. Plus, for that matter, pumping resources hard into DEX vs. STR and/or CON. Is the payoff worth it? Only your doctor knows for sure... :)

4. The barbarian will get pummeled by anything with Power Attack/Deadly Aim (or Stunning Assault/Disarming Assault/etc. for that matter) - basically anything that incurs an attack roll penalty will be used with impunity against the barbarian.

5. The barbarian will get pummeled by opponents that use one hardcore attack vs. lots of smaller ones (e.g., the Vital Strike feat chain or Awesome Blow).

6. The barbarian will get pummeled by grappling opponents (which will get a +4 bonus to CMB against him), and being grappled will prevent him from using his greatsword after the first attack.

To these things - it is true that in an ideal world this would all be valid options but have you considered how hard lots of these things are against a barb even at the +4 - i mean the CMD of the barb is somewhat unreal (if you want to use come and get me effective you have to have a high dex, and strength you get full bab and rage combined with some magic items (Ring of deflection belt of physical superiority) you would have rather easily a CMD of around 50 at lvl 16, while your opponents would have a hard time to get their CMB even close to 40) - i mean to put come and get me to optimal use your barb is using two handed weapon meaning +1,5 strenght multip. to damage and "high" base damage combined with rage with rage, you will probably do not "that" much more damage, ok if you use vital strike in addition to this and you yourself use a two handed weapon you will most likely outdamege the barb - but what is preventing him from using the same things against you ? (considering you only let him standard attack you) if he full attacks he is clearly at an advantage.

- One of the Problems I have (luckily the barb is the at the moment the one and only melee typ char within my group) is the Potenz comparison between the classes - you state out that in regard to the fighter this "power up" of the Barbar is valid, but if i remember correctly the Fighter was labeled as far too strong.
So what about the other classes -
"do i have to tell the players, hmm the apg closed the power gap between the fighter and the barb, and the others with full bab, are left behind so if you don´ want to make an archer or something with high reach, and you don´t want to watch in the fights play barb or fighter."
- sarkasm, i couldn´t resist - sorry -

- back to one of my main points it was posted that szunning assault is an other matter, but stunning assault combined ist exactly what i wanted to have discussed, then the Barb is exactly using this in combination with "come and get me" -
and with all respect that is either way you look at it way too powerful or am i wrong ????

I´m quite aware that "come and get me" can be evaded by certain builds of enemy´s lets say reach ranged attackers casters etc - but my point is that it is nearly impossible to beat such a barbarian in melee and that´s the main reason i find this ability way overboard - as stated out you have to get to level 12 before you are able to pick this ability, but once you reached lvl 12 and you get this ability you don´t have to fullfill any requirements or the like you just pick the ability - a two-weapon fighting char has to give up 3 feats just to get 3 extra attacks, and you get an amount technically only limited by your dex and the number of attacks your enemy is capable of using and that as AoO at full bonus.

In a sense i get your point, i mean you actually don´t have to make a full attack against the barb after he hit you before your first attack resolved. So against some "intelligent" enemys this ability will only prevent them from using a full attack against the barb so he gets per "standard attack" a "free attack" against you considering you also prevent him from using a full attack against you. - pretty reasonable -exspecially with the +4 bonus

Well the more I think about it .....

So at the moment im thinking of ruling, these "abilities" in a fashion that the other Melee chars aren´t banned to the sidelines -

stunning assault in my opinion is quite strong even without dealing damage to the opponent - it is still a disarm with no risk for the user -

come and get me - i´m planning to allow only aoe in response to attacks which would actually hit and I´m thinking of increasing the attack and damage boni for the attackers

I was wondering if someone except me and some of my players share our opinion about those 2 new "abilities" - Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)

I´m running a campaign, and after the release of the APG I allowed my players to "recreate" their chars.
Because of this I have a Barbarian with those
"abilities" Come and Get Me (Ex)and Stunning Assault (Combat)

- So if i understand the rules correct, the Barb using Stunning assault
gets -5 on all attacks, deals damage has a chance of crit like normal and gets to stun the enemy for one round if he fails his save.

isn´t that somewhat much stronger than stunning crit or stunning fist because those abilities had some limitations to them, how often you can use them only by crit etc

But what bothers me the most is the new Come and Get Me (Ex), I mean WTF your enemy gets +4 on attacks and damage therefore you smack (aoe) him for every attempt he tries to hit you in melee, without cap.
So my greatsword barbarian (Dex 22) with combat reflexes gets to hit my two weapon fighting fighter who is attacking the barb 7 times at his highest attackbonus, and it is not even his turn -

Come on - who wants to play any other meleetyp after witnessing the barb doing that ?

does this imply that if your charisma is reduced for example from 19 to 13 that you are no longer able to cast spells from 4th - 9th grade ?

and i´m wondering why, in certain games like neverwinternights this is handled different -> you only receive bonus spells .

In which way do permant attributbonuses influence the chars ability to cast spells: it is stated:

"Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.

Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

and for example for sorceress:

"To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.
like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells)."

what i wann know is, does this mean a Sorcerer lvl 20 with cha 13 and a headband of cha +6 ,which he is wearing for over 24h , does grant him the ability to cast 9th lvl spells?

and is it possible to learn feats for example Dodge when you have dex 9 and you are wearing bracers of dex +6 for over 24h ?