Agrippa01's page

I've already posted this before, but I feel it still bares repeating.

Since I have my own ideas on alignment I'll use those as a launching point. Law and Chaos are collectivism versus individualism while Good and Evil are compassion versus brutality. Using only fictional examples these are who I'd tie the Evil alignments to.

Lawful Evil: Hydra and its membership, the League of Shadows and its membership (including Ra's al Ghul), Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, MCU Wilson Fisk and possibly MCU Loki.
Neutral Evil: Lex Luthor, Ramsay Snow/Bolton, Craster, Walder Frey, Thanos and the Four (Planetary).
Chaotic Evil: The Joker, the Purple Man, Eric Cartman, Nicodemus Archleone, Cersei Lannister, Joffrey, Petyr Baelish and V from V for Vendetta.

Lawful Evil, in my mind isn't "honorable", "cautious" or "logical" evil. It's ruthless and brutal authoritarianism or totalitarianism. Basically its civic/group minded evil. You don't commit atrocities for person gain, sating nihilistic urges, for the cause of freedom or anarchy or lust for power and the freedom to act without fear of any consequences. Instead you commit your atrocities on behalf of and for the sake of the group you serve and or lead. You aren't a greedy robber baron, a petty tyrant whose every stupid whim is law, a brutal warrior with a sense of honor and definitely not some bomb throwing anarchist. If you're a follower you're likely either a loyal Mafia foot soldier or a jack booted thug, often times fascist, thug.

Neutral Evil comes in two main flavors, opportunistic and nihilistic. The former type of Neutral Evil value both the group focus of Law and the individualism of Chaos, to some extant. Neutral Evils of this sort combine genuine service to the group with self indulgence/enrichment. Then you get flat out nihilists, who reject all other philosophies as false and without meaning, along with all existence itself. That's Thanos territory right there.

Chaotic Evil is the desire for freedom either unshackled by personal responsibility, or gained without regard to the methods used to obtain that freedom. Its basically "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" taken out of context and to the nth degree. Chaotic Evil covers abusively self indulgent and decadent nobles, power tripping bullies who think they can just do whatever they want, homicidal maniacs bent on discord who just want to watch the the world burn, Gordon Gekkoesque Objectivist dicks, scheming a$#%$%~s who spread chaos to increase their own power and would gladly watch the world burn if they get to rule the ashes and of course, bomb throwing anarchists. The Abyss is chock full of creeps like these. That and Lolth is just the elven pantheon's version of Cersei Lannister, just without the twin brother to screw on the side and a(n) (ex)husband who once cared for her.

Elijah Snow as a Sleuth Investigator/Brawler//(Cryo)kineticist gestalt. That's one right off the bat. I'll think about the rest of Planetary later.

Agrippa01 wrote:

Since I have my own ideas on alignment I'll use those as a launching point. Law and Chaos are collectivism versus individualism while Good and Evil are compassion versus brutality. Using only fictional examples these are who I'd tie the Evil alignments to.

Lawful Evil: Hydra and its membership, the League of Shadows and its membership (including Ra's al Ghul), Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, MCU Wilson Fisk and possibly MCU Loki.
Neutral Evil: Lex Luthor, Ramsay Snow/Bolton, Craster, Walser Frey, Thanos and the Four (Planetary).
Chaotic Evil: The Joker, the Purple Man, Eric Cartman, Nicodemus Archleone, Cersei Lannister, Joffrey, Petyr Baelish and V from V for Vendetta.

Now using these alignment definitions how well can you imagine a Lawful Good and a Lawful Evil character getting along?

HOOLD IT...

Nicodemus Archleone, chaotic?!

Seriously, can I snort some of what you're on?

Meticulous and methodical, with plans spanning centuries, and you're plopping him into chaos?

YMMV, I guess?

Nick's goal is a Hobbesian state of nature, a perpetual war of all against all. In essence, anarchy at its worst. This would be a condition under which the collapse of all governance and society allows for the powerful to thrive by exploiting the weak and defenseless. Basically Nicodemus wants the freedom to deny others their freedom. That's one of the classic tenants of Chaotic Evil, the idea that freedom is a zero sum game. Has nothing to do with meticulous planning.

Since I have my own ideas on alignment I'll use those as a launching point. Law and Chaos are collectivism versus individualism while Good and Evil are compassion versus brutality. Using only fictional examples these are who I'd tie the Evil alignments to.
Lawful Evil: Hydra and its membership, the League of Shadows and its membership (including Ra's al Ghul), Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, MCU Wilson Fisk and possibly MCU Loki.
Neutral Evil: Lex Luthor, Ramsay Snow/Bolton, Craster, Walser Frey, Thanos and the Four (Planetary).
Chaotic Evil: The Joker, the Purple Man, Eric Cartman, Nicodemus Archleone, Cersei Lannister, Joffrey, Petyr Baelish and V from V for Vendetta.

Now using these alignment definitions how well can you imagine a Lawful Good and a Lawful Evil character getting along?

If you don't like calling your witch's Evil Eye hex the Evil Eye find the name of a suitable light or sun god call it [insert sun/light god]'s Eye or [insert sun/light god]'s Wrath. Helios, the Greek titan of the sun, was the divine source of the evil eye, so it only makes that a witch's Evil Eye hex comes from a sun god. You could also make one of her parents a sun god/goddess or have your witch's dear old dad be Solar and have her parentage be the source of her Evil Eye. Don't think of it as your witch using malevolent magic to curse her foes, think of it as your witch's way of smiting the wicked with misfortune using holy light streaming from her eyes like laser beams.

How about a team to convert? Welcome to Planetary, Wildstorm's own team of super archeologists. Feel free to use 3PP for them if you feel the need for it. The world is a strange place, let's keep it that way.

Elijah Snow
Jakita Wagner
Ambrose Chase
The Drummer

Louis Lyons wrote:

The only thing that will stop this is if peace and stability is returned to the land. But in order to do that, one of the two royal family's entire bloodline must be wiped out, down to the last crying infant in their crib, so that no one can claim a legitimate right to the throne.

Solution: Kill all of the adults who have been pushing the war and are not innocents, and have all of the women who were not involved directly married off to the winner's allies and all of the children adopted by other families, therefore no longer being a member of the potential royal line. (This solution was actually used historically. Often the winning family would even adopt the kids themselves, making sure that they weren't killed, but pushed into lesser roles of responsibility within the house.)

I think he's referencing both Tywin Lannister's sack of King's Landing and the Red Wedding.

Your law/chaos rather fails to match lawful and chaotic deities because non-evil deities written by Americans (and probably to some extent people of other nations with English legal traditions) tend to value some degree of individualism. Abadar, for instance, is well to the individualistic side of economics, but values order and is thus lawful.

Law/chaos terminology really needs to be discarded. Law and Order aren't the same thing and pretending they are is one of the major sources of alignment confusion.

I will admit that the standard D&D/Pathfinder Law vs. Chaos terminology isn't helpful and is generally poorly thought out. But don't blame me, I wasn't the one who picked those two names, that happened long ago in TSR under Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. As for most non-Evil deities tending towards Chaos under this definition, that's understandable. That and much of our concept of human rights is focused on the rights of individuals. I say it would be hard, but not inherently impossible to come out with a Good aligned focused more on the needs of the group than on the rights of the individuals within it, just take care to remember that Lawful Goods place less emphasis personal right then Chaotic Goods, they don't disregard the concept entirely. So let's make a list and see which ones make the most sense as Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic, and see which Lawful Good/Neutral gods can remain Lawful without having to become oppressive.

I know I haven't posted very much on these forums, I'm almost a lurker here, but I'm trying to change that. So I'm posting a new thread, yet another alignment thread. This is a notably modified version of the 1st Edition AD&D DMG alignment entry.

Major Divisions:
There are two major divisions of four opposite points of view. Not all four are mutually exclusive, although each pair is mutually opposed.

Law And Chaos: The opposition here is between favoring the needs and powers of the group over the rights and freedoms of individuals. That is, Law dictates that collective action and organization is necessary and desirable, while Chaos holds to the opposite view. Law generally supports the group as more important than the individual, while Chaos promotes the individual over the group.

Good And Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of Good are human rights, or in the case of D&D/Pathfinder, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable and considered abominable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or the happiness others; the ends utterly justify the means.

A creature cannot be Lawful and Chaotic or an Evil and Good at the same time. These, and their reverses, are dichotomous. This is not to say that they cannot exist in the same character or creature if it has dual personalities or is controlled by another entity, but as general divisions they are mutually exclusive pairs. Consider also the alignment graph. If Law is opposed to Chaos, and Good to Evil, then the radically opposed alignments are Lawful Neutral — Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good — Neutral Evil, Lawful Good — Chaotic Evil, and Lawful Evil — Chaotic Good. Some Lawful groups might, for example, combine to put down some Chaotic threat, for example, just as readily as Good groups would combine to suppress some powerful Evil. Basic understanding and agreement, however, is within the general specific alignment, i.e. one of the nine categories. These are defined as follows:

LAWFUL GOOD: While as strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of Lawful Good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common good as best they can without cruelty or abuse. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring security and providence; but truth is of highest value, and life and its beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. As with other Good alignments lies and deceit are to be used only to protect life, prevent needless pain or to defeat dangerous adversaries, never for self aggrandizement or petty spite.

NEUTRAL GOOD: Unlike those directly opposite them (Neutral Evil) in alignment, creatures of Neutral Good believe that there must be some roughly equal mix of regulation in combination with freedom if the best is to be brought to the world — the most beneficial conditions for living things in general and intelligent creatures in particular.

CHAOTIC GOOD: To the Chaotic Good individual, freedom and independence are as important as life and happiness. The ethos views this freedom as the only means by which each creature can achieve true satisfaction and happiness. Strict laws and social norms beyond strictures and injunctions against unprovoked violence and theft, are seen as destructive to individual freedom, therefore anathema. Under this philosophy each individual is capable of achieving self-realization and prosperity through himself, herself, or itself and one of the greatest and noblest acts is to help others improve themselves if needed. Good works and charity are how free men, free women and all other free creatures seek to bring comfort and support to others.

LAWFUL NEUTRAL: Order and organization are of paramount importance to characters of this alignment. They believe in a strong, well-ordered government/society, whether that government is a dictatorship or benevolent democracy is of little consequence. The benefits of organization and regimentation outweigh most moral questions raised by their actions. An inquisitor determined to ferret out traitors at any cost, so long as he doesn't go to far, or a soldier who almost never questions his orders are good examples of Lawful Neutral behavior. Those of Lawful Neutral alignment impose or support such order with neither kindness nor cruelty, neither compassion nor brutality.

TRUE NEUTRAL: True Neutral characters believe in the ultimate and self fulfilling balance of forces, and they refuse to see actions as either good or evil. Since the majority of people in the world make judgments, True Neutral characters are extremely rare. True Neutrals do their best to avoid siding with the forces and philosophies of either Good or Evil, Law or Chaos. They have no concern whether these forces or mindsets remain in balanced contention, for they believe that this is the way things have and will always be.

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL: This view of the cosmos holds that absolute freedom is necessary. Whether the individual exercising such freedom chooses to do good or evil is of little to no concern. They neither go out the way to help or harm others, they simply choose to live life freely and on their own terms in defiance of all external autority.

LAWFUL EVIL: Obviously, not all order is good, nor is all civic mindedness good. Lawful Evil creatures believe that the group is best served by brutally crushing all enemies, cutting the weak and useless out of society, including those who disagree with your methods, and beating your public into submission. Since free will allows for choice of, or at least what those of Lawful Evil alignment would deem evil, the logical conclusion of the Lawful Evil alignment is that free will is an evil of itself.

NEUTRAL EVIL: Similar to the Neutral Good alignment, that of Neutral Evil holds that neither groups nor individuals have any great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything else.

CHAOTIC EVIL: The Chaotic Evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit, or that freedom itself is so important that life, especially the lives of others, is meaningless compared to it.

thejeff wrote:

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

It may be worth noting what Gary Gygax had to say about paladins

It's really hard for me to accept anything that uses "nits become lice" approvingly.

That was never about surrendered enemies reverting to their old ways, but about killing the children of racial or ethnic enemies. I also find his claim about harsh punishments deterring rape and making women safe highly suspect.

All in all, whatever Gary thinks, not a paladin I'd want to play.

I also wonder which meaning of 'eye for an eye' he was using.

The historical one I assume. Proportional punishment as opposed to blind and disproportionate vengeance.

I assume that a lot of people here know of the White Wolf (now Onyx Path) game Exalted, and about its Abyssals, demigod champions whose purpose to bring about the destruction of the world of Creation. Their are five main iconic or as they them, signature Abyssals in the setting. They are The Seven-Degreed Physician of Black Maladies, The Maiden of the Mirthless Smile, The Lady of Darkness in Bloodstained Robes, The Disciple of Seven Forbidden Wisdoms and Falling Tears Poet.

Physician: [Craft] Eternal Embalming Preparation, Fault Finding Scrutiny, Frenzied Forge Within
[Medicine] Charnel Chirurgeon Deftness, Life-Mocking Assembly
[Occult] Shadowlands Circle Necromancy
[Thrown] Crypt Bolt Attack, Improvised Assassin’s Trick
Spells [Iron Circle] Walking War Machine
Suggested Maximum level: 9

Maiden: [Athletics] Falling Scythe Attack
[Melee] Artful Maiming Onslaught, Death-Deflecting Technique, Elegant Flowing Deflection, Five Shadow Feint, Savage Shade Style, Unfurling Iron Lotus, Vengeful Riposte
Suggested Maximum level: 6

Lady: [Investigation] Deception-Piercing Stare, Soul-Invading
Glance
[Performance] Haunting Apparition Trick, Irresistible Succubus Style, Soul-Desiccating Style, Withering Phantasmagoria (all three attacks)
[Resistance] Spirit-Hardened Frame, Wound-Eating Invulnerability
Suggested Maximum level: 9

Disciple: [Archery] Banished Bow Arsenal, Doom Drawn and Imminent, Splinter of the Void (Bloodthirsty Arrow), Withering Feathered Maelstrom
[Athletics] Raiton’s Nimble Perch, Spider Pounce Technique
[Dodge] Flickering Wisp Technique (Valor Flaw of Abyssal Invulnerability), Flitting Shadow Form
[Larceny] Chains Cannot Hold
[Stealth] Shadow Cloak Technique
Suggested Maximum level: 6

Poet: [Linguistics] Blood Calligraphy Technique, Scathing Cynic Attitude
[Melee] Elegant Flowing Deflection
[Occult] Terrestrial Circle Sorcery
[Socialize] Exquisite Etiquette Style, Imprecation of Ill Manners
Spells [Emerald Circle] Demon of the First Circle, Stormwind Rider
Suggested Maximum level: 9

Archery
Athletics
Craft
Investigation
Melee
Larceny
Linguistics
Medicine
Occult
Performance
Resistance
Socialize
Stealth
Thrown

Furthermore I recommend both Path of War and Psionics Unleashed from Dreamscarred Press and using gestalt rules for each character. Is anyone up to the challenge?

This is a repost from my thread on Giant in the Playground forums.

In the Borderlands games the world of Pandora is home to a panoply of fantastic, if deadly man-killing beasts. All the way from spiderants and crab worms to skags and bullymongs. That's not counting the human adversaries or living Eridian superweapons like the Warrior and the Destroyer. So has anyone thought about how to stat these creatures out?