Sebecloki Presents 'Secrets of the Ring of Storms', an Eberron Campaign with FFd20 Rules

Game Master Sebecloki

A seven-foot tall kolbold lol.

Came up with two more questions:

For those of us who are spellcasters, how do you wanna handle adding new spells? Should we buy them with our starting money? A lot of games I've been in that start up above level 1 give out bonus 'free' spells to add to a spellbook.

Also, since we're now doing full gestalt, how should we handle favored class bonuses? Pick one like normal, or take both? I've been in games that's had either option.

take both for favored class.

how many free spells is normal?

does everyone want to gestalt archetypes as well, or just classes?

I would like to select an archetype for my Gestalt.

I believe standard is 3+your casting modifier for first level, and then 2 flat additional known spells each level after.

For those who haven't played with Seb before, he often offers one of two options for archetypes:

Either a free archetype(sometimes from a limited selection), or gestalt archetypes. Ie 2 archetypes for each 'side' of your gestalt.

The important aspect of this is that with either option, you do not give up the class features of the base class.

Ie, the Fell Knight archetype does not replace Dark Knight casting with Black Mage. You get both. Unholy Steed likewise does not make you give up Darkside.

Either option obviously increases PC power significantly, but usually Seb likes to run higher power games in general. As seen by the generous ability score generation.

I would greatly like gestalt archetypes, but I will admit that will make my specific character quite powerful. However, this is one of the chances(if not the only chance) I'll get to try out this specific combo. Which is one of the main reasons I enjoy Seb's games so much: The chance to play things that I may otherwise never get the opportunity to try out.

I think if we even went with the subjobs option, our characters are going to be quite powerful. :P

I am not familiar with how gestalt normally works, as I've never been in a campaign that uses that option but I assumed that when it said to choose a class, it didn't mean that you can only choose a core class. An archetype, to me, falls under the choose a class section, whether it's for the main class or the gestalt class, or in this case, both. That's my opinion on that. What it sounds like may be different in Seb's games is us not getting rid of the replaced abilities in that archetype. If we go that route, then I'm going to have soooo many class features lol.

Do we just use common sense to resolve a way to get two abilities that don't work together to do so? I'm asking in general, not toward any particular evils (I'm not sure if my classes will have any problems if we head this route yet).

Additionally, would we also have the option of not selecting to have remaining class abilities? I am considering playing a Mime, which is a Blue Mage Archetype. If we use this method, she will be a Blue Mage/Mime, but in flavor and ability, my character is not a Blue Mage. Could I then forgo to take these additional Blue Mage class features and stick to what is normally replaced at the risk of remaining a bit underwhelming compared to other characters?

Gestalt is a special character creation/advancement system, dating back to at least 3.0' Unearthed Arcana:

You pick two classes, and gain the best of both per level.

For example, my PC is going to be a 5th level gestalt Dark Knight/Necromancer:

I would get d10 HD, the combined skills of both classes, +5 BAB, +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, and +4 Will.

I also get all of the class features of both, including each class's spell casting.

Gestalt archetypes is kinda the same, wherein you take the class features of 2 archetypes and *add* them to your normal class, without giving anything up.

So, as I said in my above example, if I took the Fell Knight as one of my gestalt archetypes, I would get both Dark Knight and Black Mage spell casting(plus the Necromancer's casting as my other gestalt class). I would also get the Unholy Steed and Darkside class features, even though normally, you replace Darkside with Unholy Steed.

Again, this does lead to a seriously significant increase in power, and thus isn't for every player or even every game.

And honestly, I don't need to have gestalt archetypes, they would just be an awesome bonus to really make my PC the absolute badass that I envision for him. At the very least, I would like the free archetype option(only one that doesn't give up the base class features.)

My only issue with gestalt archetypes is that it's useless for me on the Freelancer side of things because I don't get more points to spend. In fact, it makes Freelancer actually bad by giving others even more class features.
As for the available archetypes for Freelancer, two of them give more options to spend points, adding to the existing problem, and the third does in fact half all point costs (except bonus feats) but effectively halves the max level of the class features you have access to (and that stays with the gestalt archetypes as explained above). I guess one solution would be a slight houseruling, something like the discount archetype giving discounts on the class abilities it would normally limit you to but without the hard limit (so beyond the limit you pay full price).

On the other end, which will be Time Mage, it looks like great fun though. Grab the class features of a diminished casting archetype without the diminished casting.

So for my character itself I'm looking at a Changeling Freelancer/Time Mage.

Thanks for the explanation, Monkeygod. I did find that resource and was pretty sure that was how to build it, but it's good for confirmation. I guess I did something right! I'm frankly okay with whatever we settle on for character creation. Whatever makes your character creation the way it should be in your head and in Seb's mind is fine with me.

@Cuan, I love Time Mages. Hopefully, there is a way we can balance all this out!

With as much as I will already have to keep track of I highly doubt I will even use a gestalt archetype at all.

I personally don't really want to add gestalt archetypes on top of regular gestalt. that said I don't particularly mind it if someone else really wants it, or if its needed to bring it more in line with the power level the GM is looking for.

If its up to me then no, but this is a weak preference.

I'm down for anything as far as gestalt archetypes go. I'll pump Tyrant into the stratosphere if given the chance, but it's not something I necessarily need.

Thinking on it, actually. Would we have gestalt archetypes for both classes or just one? If just one, then Blue Mage and Monsterous Shifter would be my go to, but if it's both then stacking Dragon Form with Rage is going to be... woo boy. That's going to be big.

Sounds like more people want to do gestalt archetypes so we'll do that.

Sounds like more people want to do gestalt archetypes so we'll do that.

Ok. Do we get a gestalt archetype for each side of the gestalt, or just one per character period? or something else entirely?

Guess I'll go for Red Warrior either way, the various chains look nice, and the ability to make all my attacks hit two adjecent squares is going to be hella powerful.

Also, 2nd question, what happens if we have more than one source of MP? The only thing I've been able to find on multiclassing and MP is that 'Bonus MP is given fully from a multiclass.', but that doesn't really tell me if we're supposed to just track one pool, like with psionics, or if we're supposed to track two pools separately.

Just to make the questions really clear:

*If I had a level in red mage and a level in black mage, would the black mage MP be considered 'different' or could i use them to cast red mage spells?

*Do I get a separate magic exhaustion track for each class, or do I share the same exhaustion track for both classes?

Oh man, somebody on the boards introduced me to FFd20 in a (seemingly doomed) PbP Recruitment, and I've kind of fallen in love with it. Started running a live campaign with it three weeks ago but I'd love the chance to sink my teeth into it as a player.

Just so I understand, you're currently going with a system where people get one class, but 2 free archetypes? Unless I'm misunderstanding how the Gestalt Archetypes thing works.

Sebecloki wrote:

Sounds like more people want to do gestalt archetypes so we'll do that.

Ok. Do we get a gestalt archetype for each side of the gestalt, or just one per character period? or something else entirely?

I'm wondering the same thing. I'll have to allocate resources differently depending on the answer.

I assumed two classes, and then a free archetype for both sides of things. Seems in line with the power level we're getting up to.

I assumed two classes, and then a free archetype for both sides of things. Seems in line with the power level we're getting up to.

I'd also assume two classes, I just like knowing it for a fact.

I wrote up Suna's mechanics and stuck her in an old alias, so the name is wrong - I'll fix that and fluff some time soon. Man this stuff is complicated with all the extra shit we have from all over the place. She's kind of a combat beast, but very slow moving.

Oh, changing the alias name broke the link, so here we go.

Okay, that can get a bit wacky with how FFd20 works. Many archetypes are basically a full class of their own.

So assuming true Gestalt, with a free archetype per side, how does that interact with, for example, a Summoner (Iconic Summoner). You get both your Avatar AND Iconic Hero in that case?

That's one of the weirder edge cases, but worth having a clarification on.

Either way, one side of my character is likely going to be Blue Mage, with a mix of Savant and Mystic Savant most likely. Love Blue Mages, and maximum spell access is pretty great, even if the Blue Mage list is a bit underwhelming in FFd20.

Edit: I'll roll the dice real quick before I forget, put them in order later.

Applied Characters
Atlas2112 - Dargor the Shadowlord - Male Moogle - Bonedancer/Caller
Cuàn - No Name - No Gender/Changeling?Moogle? - Freelancer/Time Mage
Drogeney - Vinexa the Temptress - Female Mithra - Illusionist/Dancer
Knight of Rust - Tyrant - Male Gria (Kolbold) race - Blue Mage/Dragoner Berserker
Locomore - Suna, the Red Knight - Female Au Ra - Red Warrior/Onion Knight
Monkeygod - No Name - No Gender/Race - Dark Knight/Necromancer
Neurophage - Sieghart Aetheredge - Male Hume - Gunbreaker/Transporter
Smooshiebanana - Scarlet Grey - Female Viera - Mime/Phantom Blade
Storm Dragon - No Name - No Gender/Race - Blue Mage/Mystic Savant?

Expressed Interest
Psionicmaster

If I missed anyone or made an error, I'm sorry. I did my best. :)

Gestalt archetypes with gestalt classes would like this:

Dark Knight(Reaver/Fell Knight)/Necromancer(Skullshield/Vampire).

Two classes. Two archetypes per class.

I'm playing a male Umbragen Drow, named Mithuth(last name pending, possibly, lol).

I gotta admit, I was unaware some archetypes were basically full classes. I don't think the ones I looked at were. I'm gonna try and talk to Seb, and see how he feels about that, as it might be too much power for even his games, LOL.

I would be okay with a free archetype for each class, if gestalting them ends up being too OP.

Gestalt archetypes with gestalt classes would like this:

Dark Knight(Reaver/Fell Knight)/Necromancer(Skullshield/Vampire).

Two classes. Two archetypes per class.

I'm playing a male Umbragen Drow, named Mithuth(last name pending, possibly, lol).

I gotta admit, I was unaware some archetypes were basically full classes. I don't think the ones I looked at were. I'm gonna try and talk to Seb, and see how he feels about that, as it might be too much power for even his games, LOL.

I would be okay with a free archetype for each class, if gestalting them ends up being too OP.

Yeah, not all of them are, but there's some notable options. Let me pull off a few.

Blue Mage: Highlander. Replaces literally every single class feature.

Chocobo Knight: Magitek Pilot; not as egregious, since it's similar in scope to something like a Drake Rider Cavalier, but it'd be odd to have both a Mount and a mech.

Monk: Ki Warrior; replaces two key features (Ki Powers and Combo Finishers) for the ability to be a DBZ character.

Necromancer; Warlock; replaces almost every single class feature so you can be basically a 3.5 Warlock.

There are others which don't replace many class features, but do involve big alterations to the base chassis; eg. the Prosthetist Engineer increases to 3/4 BaB and a d10 HD while losing the Automaton for a robo-arm (one of my players is playing one of these, they're pretty sick), while a Savant Blue Mage decreases to a 1/2 BaB, d6 HD character in exchange for more potent casting (since baseline Blue Mages have kind of disappointing casting and are made to Gish with natural attacks). These may or may not be problematic with gestalt.

The BAB changing thing is fairly common it seems. For Time Mage 5 out of 7 archetypes do that.

As for my character, he's a Changeling by the name of Anan. He was raised to pretend to be a Half Elf to cover up his Elven mother's shame and his full name, which he just uses for his Half Elf persona, is Cele'anan Phiarlan (his mother is an unmarked member of the house).

With the gestalt archetypes I'm building him as Time Mage (Clone Master/Dimensional Hopper) and Freelancer(Jack of all Trades/Monsterkin).
I'm assuming we're building with all the positive of the archetypes but not the negatives(most of the time) so I'm building him as if there is no hard limit on the class features he can buy as Freelancer other than character level but that the reduced availability just applies to the discount Jack of all Trades gives.

Oh man, two free archetypes? Right now I've got Tyrant set up with one each. I thought he was ready to post but I guess it'll wait until we get clarification.

Knight of Rust - Tyrant - Male Gria (Kolbold) race - Blue Mage/Dragoner Berserker

He's actually a Dragonborn equivalent, but claims he's a Kobold due to backstory reasons. Just wanted to clarify! Thanks for coming up with the list.

I think my basic concept is going to be a complete magic nut; they live, sleep, eat, and breathe magic. So something along the lines of a Blue Mage (Savant/Mystic Savant)//Black Mage (Thaumaturge) or Scholar (Archmage). Probably a Nu Mou.

Haven't played a full caster in a while, so may as well make the fullest caster there is.

Need to refresh my memory on Eberron stuff to figure out a more detailed backstory. Any prominent colleges or whatnot I should know about?

Morgrave University in Sharn. Two great centers of learning reside in Aundair, The University of Wynarn and the floating city of arcane study Arcanix.

I'd say Morgrave is very popular with lots of students, and both locations in Aundair have very seldom students. It kind of depends on what you want. Aundairians are kind of arrogant. So if you are the social type, you may want Morgrave.

Aundarians are big on their horsemanship and living in nature, but working in cities.

Sharn is a city of towers that reach immensely high up into the clouds and the University there is at the center of a very high society place if I recall.

There are probably a few more numbers to hammer out in terms of trait bonuses, but here's Sieghart as he is for the time being. I used all the optional systems that applied to him: Hero Points, Moogle in the Room, Revengeance Limits, and Static HP.

Morgrave University in Sharn. Two great centers of learning reside in Aundair, The University of Wynarn and the floating city of arcane study Arcanix.

I'd say Morgrave is very popular with lots of students, and both locations in Aundair have very seldom students. It kind of depends on what you want. Aundairians are kind of arrogant. So if you are the social type, you may want Morgrave.

Aundarians are big on their horsemanship and living in nature, but working in cities.

Sharn is a city of towers that reach immensely high up into the clouds and the University there is at the center of a very high society place if I recall.

I read a big book on the 6(?) major nations at one point but all I really remember is that Aundair is basically every fantasy European benevolent monarchy there is smashed together, and they had a friendly rivalry with a weird French/Italian hybrid country known for its tasty cheeses. I need to find that book again lol.

Their enemy was Karnnath. Know for its cheeses, dairy, fine horses, and lumber. :P

About Q'Barra, from what little I know, it is typically a place of adventure. There is conflict, villainy, and just as many enemies as there are people just trying to hack it in the wilds. A place of unrefined beauty where everything wants to kill you (elves, pirates, lizardfolk, and nature itself). They export a lot of dragonshards if I recall. Who knows what we will face there, if that indeed is where the group will end up.

It has jungles and ancient ruins

For the archetype issue -- I don't have time to read every one and make a list of which are too much and which are ok. I leave that to everyone's judgment. If you pick one that's most of a class, apply it as normal instead of gestalting it (otherwise, some archetypes become inaccessible). I do think having 6 classes of abilities (especially when they're FF classes) seems like too much, but I'm going to have to leave that to individual judgment to tell where the line is.

And yes, it is 2 archetypes per class the way we've played it before

I found a great map for Newthrone and an awesome map of Khorvaire I've already linked on the page. Q'barra has a lot of jungles, including some interesting ruins. I'm planning lost world/pulp jungle adventure kinds of stuff. I'll probably borrow ideas from some Dungeon and Frog God modules in that kind of environment.

I've personally found the Mime a powerful class, enhancing the power of other classes, so I'll just stick with the one archetype for each class with no adding the replaced abilities.

Dang...now that's a city map

I've got the same line of thinking as Smoothie. Going to stick with the one archetypes instead of more. I don't think Tyrant is going to miss out on anything not taking more.

Frog God Games is one of my favorites, so I'm happy to hear they're going to be an inspiration. I managed to run half of The Slumbering Tsar before the group broke up. It was delightfully terrible for everyone involved. My group agreed to a meat grinder and definitely got it.

Tyrant will be up finished tonight. I have a tiny bit more work to do and he's good.

For the archetype issue -- I don't have time to read every one and make a list of which are too much and which are ok. I leave that to everyone's judgment. If you pick one that's most of a class, apply it as normal instead of gestalting it (otherwise, some archetypes become inaccessible). I do think having 6 classes of abilities (especially when they're FF classes) seems like too much, but I'm going to have to leave that to individual judgment to tell where the line is.

And yes, it is 2 archetypes per class the way we've played it before

Well f+%&. That puts to bed Onion Knight, which isnt a big deal except I don't happen to like the rest of the knight archetypes, but what's worse is it puts paid to my Red Warrior pick on the red mage side, which I really liked. But it's the poster child for 'replacing most of the class', so yeah...

I don't suppose you'd be willing to let us trade the two gestalt archetypes that don't replace most of the class for one gestalt archetype that replaces most of the class?

Don't feel bad saying no, it's kind of on me for getting attached to particular choices in a chargen proccess as fluid as this, but I am attached now :/

Seb said you can take an archetype that replaces most of the class features as normal. Ie, you'll have to give up whatever the archetype normally has you trade out.

Beyond that, I think it's a little much to be asking for personal rulings that are only applicable to you.

Monstrous Shifter also runs over most of Blue Mage, so it wouldn't be just for Locmore.

Okay, why don't we do this -- it won't be exact, but should give some reasonable guidelines. 1 class-level (95%) archetype either has to be taken as a normal archetype, or is the only gestalt archetype you can take on either side of the gestalt.

Is a 95% archetype equivalent to four or two normal archetypes (or 3 or some other number)? are most of them 10%, 20%, 25%, 33%?

Seb said you can take an archetype that replaces most of the class features as normal. Ie, you'll have to give up whatever the archetype normally has you trade out.

Beyond that, I think it's a little much to be asking for personal rulings that are only applicable to you.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about that, but I can see how you could construe that as rude - I'm creating more work for Seb for my own sake when he just got done saying he doesn't have time or inclination to run over a bunch of individual cases.

I'll try to take that on board.

Okay, why don't we do this -- it won't be exact, but should give some reasonable guidelines. 1 class-level (95%) archetype either has to be taken as a normal archetype, or is the only gestalt archetype you can take on either side of the gestalt.

Is a 95% archetype equivalent to four or two normal archetypes (or 3 or some other number)? are most of them 10%, 20%, 25%, 33%?

This seems pretty fair to me. AFAICT they're mostly somewhere between 25-45%, with most of this being replacing 1 or 2 core mechanics (e.g. a lot of engineer archetypes replace the construct companion) and with some 10% stuff also being scattered around that mostly consists of replacing a handful of secondary abilities for a different handful of secondary abilities.

And as monkeygod pointed out for me, sorry for creating extra work for you! I'll try to bite down on that.

Ok, right now we have two players that want one gestalt archetype per side, one that wants two, and another discussion about equivalencies (it sounds like one of the 95% archetypes is equivalent to 2-4 other archetypes).

For the archetypes that are being considered by those who only want to take 1 -- how do your choices add up? Monkeygod, try to guestimate yours, I want to see if we can make an allotment like you get roughly 150-200% of archetypes that can be composed of different combinations of different powers for different sides (so you could take 2 95% for one side, or 3 45% ones for two sides, etc.)

Monkeygod wrote:

Seb said you can take an archetype that replaces most of the class features as normal. Ie, you'll have to give up whatever the archetype normally has you trade out.

Beyond that, I think it's a little much to be asking for personal rulings that are only applicable to you.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about that, but I can see how you could construe that as rude - I'm creating more work for Seb for my own sake when he just got done saying he doesn't have time or inclination to run over a bunch of individual cases.

I'll try to take that on board.

Quote:

Okay, why don't we do this -- it won't be exact, but should give some reasonable guidelines. 1 class-level (95%) archetype either has to be taken as a normal archetype, or is the only gestalt archetype you can take on either side of the gestalt.

Is a 95% archetype equivalent to four or two normal archetypes (or 3 or some other number)? are most of them 10%, 20%, 25%, 33%?

This seems pretty fair to me. AFAICT they're mostly somewhere between 25-45%, with most of this being replacing 1 or 2 core mechanics (e.g. a lot of engineer archetypes replace the construct companion) and with some 10% stuff also being scattered around that mostly consists of replacing a handful of secondary abilities for a different handful of secondary abilities.

And as monkeygod pointed out for me, sorry for creating extra work for you! I'll try to bite down on that.

Thank you for your understanding -- I'm not upset at all but I've got to be clear about what my limitations and approach are. I own a ton of PF stuff (1,000s of pdfs), but I'm not the greatest rules maven -- I frequently have trouble even understanding what players are asking in recruitments about corner case rules interactions. I resolve this issue by setting 'benchmarks' for Bab+, AC, damage outputs, saves, etc. and let everyone make their own rules judgments as long as you're approximately in line with whatever we decide. I'm using Eberron as a setting to save time, and I'm going to be able to be responsible for telling a story and posting maps -- I basically DM by asking players who know the rules better to tell me how to resolve a question or I google it and read discussion forum posts.

Also -- I'm starting to get a better sense of what I'm going to do in terms of story: there's an Age of Demons Ruin in the Q'barra jungles, and I'm going to basically run that as a sandbox. I'm going to post a dozen or more maps I think work for this location from OSR mapping site Dyson Logos, and an overview map of how it all relates, and that will be 1,000+ rooms of sandbox dungeon crawl w/ different factions exploring the ruins at the same time you are. I'll probably grab stuff from my Frog Gods collection to populate some of the areas.

So to clarify, it seems to me like you are saying, if I took full advantage of your rules, that I should be playing:
A Blue Mage + Mime + other archetype, do not replace class features

and

A gestalt Illusionist + Phantom Blade + another archetype, do not replace class features.

With Mime replacing 80%, and Phantom Blade replacing 20% of class features of the Blue Mage and Illusionist classes respectively, I would qualify to add the additional archetypes.

--------------

What I'm currently looking at playing:
A Blue Mage + Mime Archetype, DO replace all class features.

and

A gestalt Illusionist + Phantom Blade Archetype, DO replace all class features.

So to clarify, it seems to me like you are saying, if I took full advantage of your rules, that I should be playing:

A Blue Mage + Mime + other archetype, do not replace class features

and

A gestalt Illusionist + Phantom Blade + another archetype, do not replace class features.

With Mime replacing 80%, and Phantom Blade replacing 20% of class features of the Blue Mage and Illusionist classes respectively, I would qualify to add the additional archetypes.

--------------

What I'm currently looking at playing:
A Blue Mage + Mime Archetype, DO replace all class features.

and

A gestalt Illusionist + Phantom Blade Archetype, DO replace all class features.

That sounds about right -- I think we should aim for like 100-120% with that the average archetype is like 35% (somewhere between 20 and 45%); as I said, it's not going to be exact -- we're basically looking for parity in overall class features I think.

If I were keeping all replaced class features with my Mime and Phantom Blade, my total powers of these collective classes/gestalt/archetypes would be 100%. However, I'm essentially at 0% because I'm essentially playing a single class with a gestalt and not keeping any replaced class features.

Without adding class features/archetypes/gestalt archetypes, I'm at risk of not being an overly powerful character in a power game. At the same time, I also want to play a mime in Ebberon run by you, so I hope that isn't going to destroy my chances of getting in. I just don't like building characters with so much going on I can't keep track of it. I don't mind if other people are skyrocket godly powerful, I just have a preference not to be.

Good lord I'm going to be very weak in comparison. Oh well, I am sure I can survive it.

Gotta do just a bit of reworking, then, so no Tyrant tonight.

Going with Blue Mage + Monsterous Shifter (Gestalt Archetype)
+
Dragoner Berserker (Full archetype replacement)

So I'll just need to remove the Berserker stuff and I'm good.

If I were keeping all replaced class features with my Mime and Phantom Blade, my total powers of these collective classes/gestalt/archetypes would be 100%. However, I'm essentially at 0% because I'm essentially playing a single class with a gestalt and not keeping any replaced class features.

Without adding class features/archetypes/gestalt archetypes, I'm at risk of not being an overly powerful character in a power game. At the same time, I also want to play a mime in Ebberon run by you, so I hope that isn't going to destroy my chances of getting in. I just don't like building characters with so much going on I can't keep track of it. I don't mind if other people are skyrocket godly powerful, I just have a preference not to be.

Ok, but we all do need to use the same rules -- we can't have some players doing different levels of gestalt, I'm just trying to hash out some parameters that will fit everyone's build ideas.