Also, just to make sure I understand the WBL modifier for crafting feats, here's what I think happens. A single crafting feat adds 25% of what we'd be gain leveling up (with each additional feat adding an extra 5%.) The additional wealth must be spent on the appropriate crafting (presumably anything covered by the feats you have, distributed as you like,) and you must have the appropriate CL to craft the particular items.
Does that extra 25% cost go towards the crafting costs or the full costs of items? For example, for a physical stat belt +2, would the crafting bonus need to be 2000 gold or 4000 gold to create the belt? I think that it's probably the 4000, but want to confirm.
Can the crafting bonus be saved from level to level starting from when it would have been gained, or is it lost if not used on a particular level?
Just realized I never responded to this because it came in right as I was falling asleep last night.
You know, reading over the article again and how I worded the WBL integration with crafting in recruitment I think I might have screwed something up. Technically, the way I think they intend for it to work is not to give a crafter MORE gold, but just to limit the amount of their WBL they can use towards crafting as opposed to purchasing.
But that's not how I wrote it...and so now I have to nudge some of my assumptions to make it work.
SO, I have two options. Option 1 is pretty much what you said Shamanita. If you have an item crafting feat then you receive an additional allotment of gold at level up equal to 25%+5% for each feat beyond the first. This gold is meant to be used towards crafting items using your feats.
Here is the nudge: Any item you craft must be funded at least 50% by this additional allotment. So, to use your example of the +2 belt, you can craft it if you have the appropriate feat, level, and at least 2000 gold in your crafting allotment. You do end up paying "full price" for the item (4k gold) because you are not buying it, you are getting it added to your WBL which has been boosted due to your crafting feats.
Option 2: Since I know this is kind of obtuse, if it is easier for everyone what we can say instead is everyone has the same WBL, but if you have a crafting feat(s) then up to x% (25+blah blah blah) of your WBL can be spent on getting items of appropriate types (based on requisite feats) "half price." You do not get the additional allotment the way I first described it, but ultimately it comes out the same (I think?).
Mathematically they are both the same (I think)...so I am fine whichever is easier for everyone.
Sorry for the confusion. I haven't allowed item crafting feats in my games before outside of scribe scroll and brew potion because I have always been scared of runaway WBL issues. Because of that I do not have experience balancing them.
Are these options just about as clear as mud? Am I right that they are essentially 2 different ways of getting the same result? Which do you prefer?
They don't account to the same, if my math is correct. At level 2, with option 1 I can get 1000 gold pieces of miscellaneous objects and 250 of scrolls. With option 2, to get the same amount of scrolls, I would be limited to 875gp in miscellaneous.
If instead I wanted 500 gp's worth of scrolls, with both options I would have 750gp left over for misc items: either spending 500gp out of the 1000+250 or using all of mu 250gp reservoir to have them at half price.
So it looks like option 1 gives the most bang for our buck, so I'd of course prefer that.
And it sounds more similar to RAW to me:
Using the above 25% rule, Patrick’s 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items.
If it says "worth", I feel it's mentioning price, not crafting cost.
Which one to choose depends on how strong you want crafting feats to be: 25% WBL is a significant advantage.
The recommendation in the article I read was 25 - 50%, which is why I decided to start at 25 and then teir up as you get more feats.
Ultimately, the way we are doing it is somewhat of a minor Nerf in relation to RAW, just not as big of one as taking the feats out altogether (obviously). RAW there is NO limitation to how much of your wealth you spend on crafting. Pick up all the requisite feats and there is nothing that says you can't craft all of your own gear (and your party's to boot) and get a ludicrously unbalanced wealth for your level. This article just provides the GM some guidelines for trying to add some temperance to that without making the feats completely pointless.
You are right though on the math...they aren't equivalent...dang. To be equivalent the rule would have to be Must Fund only 50%, any of the allowance you use is lost (not "fund at least but can fund more than 50%")...hmm. I don't really like that.
I will leave the options as is and let you guys provide input before I decide. As you level option 1 will end up being more powerful than option 2. Which do you think is more balanced? Thoughts? Comments?
As a guy who currently doesn't have any crafting feats in the pipeline, I'm fine with either, but I prefer the first just to make the math way easier on everyone involved.
It is my understanding though, that any money of the Phantom WBL increase has to be spent at the level you got it at. For example: At level 2, you would have an extra 206.25 gold to spend on scrolls (if that was your only creating feat), but unlike your regular 825 gp, anything you didn't spend of the 206.25 would be lost.
I don't really have any experience with crafting so no imput here.
It is my understanding though, that any money of the Phantom WBL increase has to be spent at the level you got it at. For example: At level 2, you would have an extra 206.25 gold to spend on scrolls (if that was your only creating feat), but unlike your regular 825 gp, anything you didn't spend of the 206.25 would be lost.
That sounds a bit harsh. I feel that the rules were written thinking about generating higher-level characters, who then were to level and craft at a normal pace. Here we are removing downtime as a whole, as if re-generating our characters at any time.
I asked about it because I'm almost certainly taking the Fetish Hex this level (which gives Craft Wondrous Items,) and need to figure out how it works. I'm fine with option one as that was what I understood, but if there was a strong preference for option two I could live with it.
I asked about banking the bonus because I don't think that the rules were meant to be used in this sort of situation. It looked like they were intended for creating a character of a higher level and getting the entirety of WBL all at once. As that's not what's happening here, it needs tweaking for our situation.
If we're going to require that at least half of crafting costs come from the bonus, then I'd suggest that banking it almost certainly makes more sense. If I want to be able to get to half of a physical stat belt, for example I wouldn't be able to do so until Level 9 with just one crafting feat. That's the first time that 25% of the increase gets to 2000 gold. I'd expect characters to have access to the ability to craft that particular item sooner. If we're able to bank, it'd be useful at the earliest at level 5 (assuming that you get the feat by level 3, and where it would use most of, but not all of the total bonus WBL increments) which is much more in line with when I'd expect characters to start considering crafting it normally.
I mean, or we could eliminate crafting altogether and not have to worry about it. In some ways, the characters most likely to craft are the full casters; they've got the best chance of having free feats and they can do the most with the crafting feats when they get them. They're also working with the 9 levels of spells to start with so there's not actually a huge reason to give them more. It would change my build and it would be a penalty to Aristotle in particular as he got scribe scroll as a feat for free, but I'd be fine if we wanted to go that way. I guess maybe I'd suggest giving Aristotle a free feat to replace Scribe scroll to compensate and I'd just take a different Hex this level.
I know that manipulation of the WBL and efficient use is part of the theory-crafting, but I wouldn't care too much if we eliminated it. I'll use it if it's there as it's something I can afford to take advantage of and my class does it well, but I don't have to and wouldn't be put off by dropping it from this tournament.
Do the Wizard and the Shaman need an extra 25% WBL for free compared to the melee classes? I think one could make a case for no, they do not.
I wish I had free feats :( XD
If we want to go the PFS route and switch Scribe Scrolls for a free Spell Focus, I'm game.
Was anyone else planning on going crafting feats in their build? If we dropped it would anyone be bothered? I'm going for simplicity here, and not having it in the game if no one will miss it too much is the simplest solution it seems to me.
I don't want to simplify things to boring, but there's plenty that goes on in the arena to keep us interested, and lack of complication means that we're more likely to keep on moving at a decent clip. With this many players that's an issue all by itself.
Like I said above, I didn't have a plan for it, but if it and leadership were still in then at level 7 I would be picking up a crafting cohort, just to stay in WBL range of all you people with Casting. For the extra money, I'd make room in my build. I think it is more interesting without it though
Yeah, starting to wonder if whoever *doesn't* take Leadership or already had a companion starts losing out in battles after that level.
For these particular aspects (companions, cohorts, crafting), it has to be considered which could inadvertently become an arms race. RAW are largely designed to address options for a well-rounded party (vs. the game world) where each member having different priorities around these things is okay, but in the pure PvP situation it seems like there could be balance issues.
My two cents.
Compelling arguements. Since it doesn't look like the last fight will be done until the morning at the earliest I will consider overnight and let anyone else that has thoughts weigh in before I give final judgement.
Right now based on your guys' input I am leaning towards kabosching crafting and leadership...so if you have a build that you were working towards that leans heavily on one or both of those mechanics you better speak up in less than 12 hours.
Fine by me. Was there also a resolution of knocking hirelings down to 1? I've got some money burning a hole in my pocket, and some extra eyes would be a good investment for the next fight if I can grab them
god I hope I don't get you Carlos XD
There's plenty of Hugs for Everyone!
Hug penny then!
Oh, I will, and while I'm doing that my trained stirges will be coming for you, to drain you dry
lol
I could buy followers, but tobias aint to trusting of anything not from the plane of shadows.
(Sidenote: Not actually buying stirges. Our GM kiboshed that plan by saying we could only have 3 hirelings, otherwise at 20 gold apiece it would be a horrific flock next round)
tho gotta ask, how does one grapple a snake XD
Oh yeah, speaking of the additional wealth: should those of us who've completed our fights level up to 2 and take the 825? Or was level 1 going to be multi-fight?
I'll be posting in our arena here soon, but thought I'd weigh in on crafting. The only crafting I was planning on doing, was for my arcane bonded bow. If love to be able to use that feature, but I do see how balance could be at issue, so I won't hold it against anyone if I can't craft for that.
Wait no, Beansidhe, your meant to loose this!
Ha. Not if I can help it!
Oh yeah, speaking of the additional wealth: should those of us who've completed our fights level up to 2 and take the 825? Or was level 1 going to be multi-fight?
Level 1 is just a single fight...so go ahead and take your additional wealth and level up your character.
I had thought about doing a duos or battle royale this level...but ultimately I feel like L1 characters are just too squishy. I think it will be more interesting to save that map for another level later on.
I'll be posting in our arena here soon, but thought I'd weigh in on crafting. The only crafting I was planning on doing, was for my arcane bonded bow. If love to be able to use that feature, but I do see how balance could be at issue, so I won't hold it against anyone if I can't craft for that.
That is a good point...I am playing a mage in a different game that has an arcane bonded wand. Having the essentially free craft wand feat for the one item is kind of a huge perk to the character.
If we go the route of getting rid of crafting all together, how would you feel about getting a bonus feat at your next level up (since Arcane Bond hits at level 1 for you) in lieu of the crafting benefit of Arcane Bond?
You could weave it into the Arcane Bond class feature...like spell focus so long as you have your bow in hand or something. I don't know, just spitballing.
I mean I don't mind if the crafting feat is litterly only just to effect a single item like what they are proposing.
So, the main problem I have with the Arcane Bond crafting in this format is that normally when you die, you lose all the money you spent on upgrading the arcane bond. Bean is already 500 gold ahead of the rest of us because they got their bow for free, which yes, is not going to be a big deal in a few levels, but for right now it is significant.
Relevent to the discussion I think: Noone has a sunder build put together where their goal is the break people's stuff so they start falling behind on gear once we get to higher levels, right? I mean, that's why I didn't say that I was going to kill A's familiar and make him spend 400 gold to replace it.
Keep discussing. I will come back later to read up and rule.
For now, just posting rules on the temple/tower teleport.
To use the teleport you must end your turn on the digit in the temple or atop a tower. The first time you do this the journey is surprising and rough, you fall prone. On subsequent teleports you may attempt a dc 15 reflex to keep your footing.
By default the temple teleports you to the tower closest to where you started the battle. After your first teleport you may attempt a UMD check dc 10 that can be made untrained to exert your will upon the device. On success you can choose which tower you go to.
Yeah, I immediately dismissed a sunder build as just not fun for the others in the tournament. I'm fine trying to kill the characters at the power level they're at, I'm not interested in trying to make their build harder to manage for future rounds. We could play a tournament of that sort, but it's not what I'm looking for here.
As for replacing the bonded items/familiar with death, I've mostly decided that I'm just not going to have the familiar out and about and I won't be using it for the touch spells later on. In a normal party setting, assessing the odds of getting it killed and deciding whether the risk is worth it based on the money to replace makes good sense and is part of the game. Here, if I'm using it as a tool to kill other players they can and should try to take that away form me in the match that we're playing. That means that either I'm at a huge disadvantage needing to pay to get it back multiple times or getting the familiar (and my ability to cast spells,) back when I die is part a free part of the ressurection I'm a huge advantage not needing to pay for this resource that's normally part of the class.
Having said that, the bonded bow for the magus is one that's more reasonable to use in combat on a regular basis. I'd favor giving them the ability to upgrade it as per the class feature and not have to worry about the cost to replace even if it gives them some small monetary advantage over the baseline class (or even a "large" short term monetary advantage.) They'd be using a weapon anyhow (unlike the touch attack delivery for familiars,) so it's less of an extra risk assessment choice.
I'm honestly good with whatever decision is made. Honestly my build doesn't hinge on crafting weapon stuff, it was just a nice perk of the build.
I swear i bought a potion of mage armor and forgot to drink it, but it isnt on my character sheet. would it be allowed to lose 50gp and pretend i had it all along, or is that too much to ask?
I am afraid if it is buying it right now during combat I will have to say no. It sets a dangerous precedent for future battles.
"I swear I meant to buy a scroll of [spell that counters what my opponent is currently doing], but it slipped my mind. Can I just spend the gold and pick it up now?" I'm not saying that you are being dishonest like that, just that it is impossible to adjudicate what is fair and what isn't if I set a precedent like that here.
Now, if you can prove through an audit of your character's wealth (line by line what he spent on what) that you are short 50gp for equipment that you don't have, then I am willing to rule, in this one instance, that you must have bought the potion and forgotten to add it to your character sheet. But, if you didn't spend the gold before the battle started then you can't spend it now. Sorry.
OK, that is fine with me.
I just realized that my GP is not on my paizo sheet, its on a google spreadsheet. i guess i can't get that potion.
So that is specifically for the visible tree line and the trees beyond it.
If you leave the map off the east and west sides all you find is more dirt road for as far as the eye can see.
or in my case the blessed embrace of shadows!
these maps need more shadows!
I am joking btw....or am I?
Bottled sunlight is on the to buy list, specifically in the case we end up with something like that in later levels. I for sure am expecting an all in the dark fight, once we hit a few more levels
Btw anyone against making a discord group for ease of chatting in discussion?
That sounds like a good idea to me.
So having read everyone's thoughts I have come to decisions on crafting and leadership. I was most compelled by the concerns about these possible paths represent required arms races for participants. If you don't take leadership you are going to get clapped kind of things. I want to avoid creating an environment where a specific decision is essentially mandatory to be competitive.
Re:Crafting - Crafting Feats are only available to classes that get those feats as a class feature (EG Scribe Scroll for Wizard, Bonded Item Crafting for Wizard and Magus, etc). If Wizards prefer they may exchange Scribe Scroll with some other bonus feat.
Re:Leadership - Leadership, Vile Leadership, and similar feats are not available during the arena.
If you have concerns about either of these rulings please let me know.
kthnxbai
I seriously don't know how I got the idea that the entrance was West, but now it explains some of my earlier confusion as well. You see, I could not figure out for the life of me, how Palhut got to the entrance with a double move before. I just ended up shrugging and saying, GM's got it and understands, that's enough for me.
Yeah, I think for next time, if its not too much work for our GM, putting a number and letter axis on the maps would really help. That way we could keep track of like "first move action, c4, c5, d6, e7, e8"
He said the entrance was east, and that is how