Better buffing then.
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@GM, we were doing round-based buffs but you have had Suliji speaking in big blocks of text that would take more than 6 seconds.
I will not have waited more than 6 seconds.
If you want her to be using Talking is a Free Action for dramatic effect, fine, as long as rounds are not marked off the durations.
I was very clear about this back in the dragon fight and again here - I will not let somebody monologue to kill our buffs.
That is why I keep asking for an initiative roll, so I can start taking actions.
You keep delaying that so she can talk more.
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I think she is stalling.
But you and Nox wanted to talk to her, so I did not attack. That is strictly an OOC decision. IC, Sir Hendric should have attacked, but on a player-to-player level that would be a rude thing to do.
I think talking to her is a mistake. She is too clever and will manipulate us like she did everybody else. I am not smart enough to see through all of her tricks, so I want to just ignore what she says and finish the mission.
EVERYTHING we have heard about her in these scenarios is clever manipulation and schemes. Listening to somebody like that is just giving them the chance to manipulate you. And she is really, really good at that.
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“Suliji’s the one who started it all—she and her withered patron. And from your recounting of events you played right into her hand. Suliji knows how to manipulate. She pulled together a group of six of us. Some she lured with a chance for revenge—like Aspenthi—others with the promise of profit—like Myrosype—and me with the looming specter of blackmail. We did her bidding, coordinated her attack on the Grand Lodge, and ultimately suffered when the Society began attacking to avenge itself. No doubt you’ve felt very proud every time you executed another Korholm leader? We’ve learned the hard way that Suliji uses those happy feelings as a smokescreen to operate with impunity, letting you think you’ve won every time you kill a decoy. No doubt she sold me out because I looked too deeply into her real plans. She made a pact with the dragon for my—what did you call it again? ‘A favor’? In truth it was her ripping my own research out of my hands and into the lizard’s claws!”
Kramolag turns to Geatan. "Yes, because Suliji took my research and gave them to the dragon much to my chagrin. Try to keep up!"
She turns once more to Hendric. “Suliji’s an ambitious woman, but she covers her tracks well. I found that she returned to Ostenso regularly over the past two years—and not to check in at the Aspis headquarters. Instead, she was sneaking into the mausoleum of Jhandorage Vaulnder Alexayn--Suliji's withered 'patron.' He is—or was—one of the Consortium’s founders who died more than a century ago. He was practically an informal saint of the Druman Kalistocracy by the time he died, so she might be smuggling his wealth out. More likely she’s found some other advantage within, possibly one tied to the Consortium’s early days that she could hold over the Patrons’ heads or use to tear the Consortium apart.”
Kramolag nods in agreement, followed by her grabbing the back of her neck in pain—obviously the action strained a sore.
”If Suliji’s poised to do anything further with or against the Consortium, you can bet your sweet patootie that you and your colleagues will be harmed in the process. If she’s willing to ruin the Thuvian country to make a little gold, what would she destroy to win her end game? My suggestion? Go to Ostenso, break into Alexayn’s crypt, and learn what Suliji plans next. Assuming she’s not just aiming to give every child a puppy and a free education, you’ll probably want to stop her.”
"I want you to get to the bottom of it and confront Suliji Peshar. If, as we suspect, she plans to frame the Pathfinder Society, you need to stop her, and otherwise, you’ll be well-placed to take decisive action to gain us leverage over the Consortium toward a peaceful resolution of hostilities."
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You know...you could ask her in-game about that stuff, which no one has yet!
I am more than willing to admit that Hendric’s sheer stubbornness has me more than a little frustrated—but I can pretty well see now that it’s Aldizog roleplaying his character to a T and not just doing this for rebellion’s sake, so that makes me feel a bit better.
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I mean, my reasoning is exactly what I have laid out.
Suliji is very good at manipulation. Sir Hendric doesn't want to be manipulated. There's no point in talking to her. She could well have a +60 Bluff. Or even just use selective truths. Right now she's using speculative "what-ifs" and that's a pointless argument to have.
As I said before, she convinced a High Priest of Abadar to turn to banditry, specifically stealing from his Emir. Now that is persuasive.
Edit: was that the dragon or Suliji who turned him? Either way, Sir Hendric takes it as an object lesson. That even the wisest can be fooled and tricked into doing evil.
Sir Hendric doesn't think he's impossible to fool. I as a player don't think I'm impossible to fool. So I'm just not considering anything she has to say.
It's like... imagine a low-level SHIELD agent is sent to guard Loki. He knows Loki is a master manipulator. He knows he can be fooled. So he puts in earplugs. Doesn't listen to a single word Loki has to say.
So I'm judging her by her actions. If we try to free the hostage without attacking her, what does she do?
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Okay guys, I'm gonna be up front here, cause I'm not sure how to handle this in society.
Part of Nox's schtick is he's the society's assassin. He cleans up people that the Society has deemed to dangerous to just let live, despite the society's general "Don't murder people" attitude.
Right now? This guy want's to set the charau-ka of Usaro to slaughter THOUSANDS of people. I'm a huge lore buff, so I know how bad the Charau-ka are... they are just as bad, if not worse, than Zon-Kuthon's insane cultists. Nox has done a Mwangi mission or two and has dealt with those things, so he knows in game just how evil and horrible they are... Honestly? Ever since the bastard showed up in our notes I had hoped we got him or Stachalto so it'd be an easy choice to kill them.
I know that Hendric wants to finish the mission and just take Suliji in... but Nox is 100% gonna side with Suliji if only for the chance to kill this particular Patron. Especially Now that he's met her and reminded him of his previous interactions (I hadn't actually made the connection before).
The problem is, this strays really, really close into PVP territory, and well, guild rules become a problem. Nox is 100% going to kill this Patron, but I also don't want to put you guys in a position where the only way to stop that from happening is to fight Nox, which you technically can't because of the no PVP rules, and that's just kinda not fair.
So... stepping away from our characters for a moment, how do we resolve this within the rules and without breaking our characters?
Uh...Nox. Look in Gameplay...
I was observing how close it got to PvP area and I was making sure that it wasn't getting too out of hand.
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Sir Hendric wants to save the Patron and then use that leverage over him to get him to change the Consortium's plans.
"We saved you, you owe us."
That was one of the main points behind going to help them in the first place!
Killing a Patron is pointless. There will just be another who could be worse. Plus we help Suliji do whatever she is trying to do, and remember that she was behind the attack on the Society.
But having a Patron be indebted to us? That is a far better option.
I don't have a solution to the PvP thing. In no case will I ally with Suliji. She is too cunning.
Edit: ninja'd by Gameplay.
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I will post my attacks in a few hours.
I am happy that we had some would be confortable with those type of conflicts.
But... She doesn't give me the impression of a master manipulator. She's actually have lost control of her power now. (my impression)
I would have side with Nox with this one. Those patreon have insanely stupid greed. Happy, we have now a fight.
I don't have the impression that there any traitor for the moment as said by the mummy lord. We don't have her side of thing. Suji seems in fact fed up of all of this. Until there a clear line between good and evil. I will not attact her or the patreon lethally.
What buff do we have now?
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Group buffs are Particulate Form, Blessing of Fervor, and Prayer.
Kaldane may have cast a second Greater Heroism if anybody wanted it. Or else he didn't.
I really wish we had brought the unconscious Mr. Khayn with us and revived him when we saw the Patron. I wonder if any other groups have thought to do that.
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I think I have a solution.
PvP is okay if everyone is okay with it?
Then have Géatan knock out Sir Hendric.
There is literally no other way to get him to go along with a plan to side with Suliji and kill the Patron as Nox wants to do.
Once Sir Hendric is down, you guys can surrender to Suliji and play her little games.
And I know Nox and Géatan would be equally obstinate about handing her head on a pike to Alexayn so if we won this fight we'd still have a problem.
Just don't let him regain consciousness around you.
Obviously he'll be furious. He'll report your betrayal and siding with Suliji to the Decemvirate. He'll never adventure with any of you again. I as a player will be okay with it. I just don't see a better solution. Unless Nox and Géatan are willing to hand her over to Alexayn.
All things considered, I’m sure most of you guys auto-succeed at the Perception check, so I’ll say that you all can hear what Nox (and Suliji) are whispering, and that Suliji is somewhere within adjacent to Nox (anything more accurate will require a move action to make an active Perception check)
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We probably have failed. Certainly if Xon kills the Patron, I don't see how we can have succeeded at the mission.
Nox, I thought we should have just killed Suliji but I stayed my hand so you could talk to her. I didn't impose my will on the rest of the group. And how do you repay me? You exploit the "No PVP" rule to do something that ruins the mission for us all, and makes Sir Hendric break a holy vow to Iomedae, while knowing that he can do nothing about it. And now I have to find a way to react in character to someone who has directly betrayed the Society and our mission. With, I guess, harsh language, since I can't do a damn thing to you. But Sir Hendric will definitely tell both the Society and the Consortium what you have done.
(I know our mission had a little asterisk of "you may have to improvise" but that is just giving us enough rope to hang ourselves.)
"I swear on my honor as a servant of Iomedae that I speak the truth and that we are not here to harm the Aspis Consortium."
I mean, that was the truth as he understood it - "Kill the Patrons" wasn't the mission. Was that Nox's plan all along? I wish I had known that when we started. You've made a liar out of him.
And to what benefit? We aren't seers or prophets. We can't know exactly what the ramifications will be of murdering this defenseless man - of siding with the powerful (Suliji) to slaughter the weak (Ratarion). Yes, in this scene that is exactly what is going on: the strong slaughtering the weak and helpless (though not innocent). Doing evil things "for the greater good" -- that's the road to Hell.
We aren't judges (Sir Hendric would want Geas spells or a 3rd-level Inheritor's Crusader before conducting a trial; something foolproof that cannot be foiled with Bluff or magic). But even if we were, why does Suliji get a chance to try to talk her way out of her crimes but Ratarion just gets executed without a chance to even see the evidence against him? She could have forged those orders we found, for all we know. To get us to be on her side with this vendetta.
It's hideously unfair IC and OOC. I don't know what I can do now in this game.
Yes, if it was the only way to move the story ahead, I was okay with being knocked out and absent for the rest of it so you could go your own way. But then the GM moved things along in a different way... Suliji hadn't used lethal force on us (yet) so things might have taken an unexpected turn... I even had a thought about how we could handle the contract with Alexayn without killing either Suliji or a Patron... and you had to go do that.
But Géatan, you may as well just kill one of the sword-monsters, I don't think anybody minds about them.
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Ratarion might be alive now, but a couple more touches from Xon and he won't be. We can't take action against Xon, can we? Because of the "No PVP" rule that Nox is exploiting?
Ratarion better not be in fact as helpless as he seems - he better have some damn good trick up his sleeve if he wants to survive. I guess we could have Kaldane cast Death Ward on him if he can get to him before Xon kills him.
Amended answer to your earlier question Géatan: No, I am not having fun right now. I thought Suli's plan was a great way of keeping thing de-escalated. I was hoping we'd find a third option and I even had some ideas; if we defeated the sword and sword-monsters we might have been able to talk about them (Suliji's restraint in this fight being a factor).
Okay, I’ve had enough.
First off, Hendric, just because something doesn’t go according to your plan doesn’t mean that you are justified in verbally—or textually—abusing your peers, whether that’s myself or your fellow players. I get that you’re understandably upset, but this is the third time that you’ve done exactly this (first with Nuck Tuk, second with the “negotiations turn to combat” issue with respect to flat-footed-ness), but I'm not taking further actions because we are at the final combat and hard mode is understandably stressful. Additionally, as far as I can find, Hendric never gave any holy vow of the sort in-character.
With that said, he does have a point, Nox. You yourself were expressing earlier to a method of trying to resolve in-character motivations while also not breaking the “no PvP” rule of PFS, and you went against exactly that by doing something that directly opposes the intended actions of another PC. That goes directly against precisely what you were trying to advocate for earlier, which is an insane conflict of interest. You have additionally put others in a situation where the only way to stop you from preventing what they were intending is to break said PvP rule by attacking Xon, which is an extension of your character. Whether or not you did this on purpose is up in the air, but it has left everyone in a situation where no one wins.
Additionally, all of you have gravely misunderstood the mission. The mission was to go to Alexayn’s crypt, find clues, then ”take whatever actions you deem appropriate.” Yes, Marcos said that killing Aspis would be playing into Suliji’s hand, but that was when he was assuming that Suliji was trying to frame the Society for it, which Suliji specifically said that she isn’t! And as far as you all understand it, that is the truth. Never once did he say “Your mission is to keep the Patrons alive,” or “Your mission is to kill the Patrons”; the mission, overall, is to make sure that the Society doesn’t take the brunt of the blame and get their reputation screwed over—Ratarion’s life is not a relevant factor in that. In fact, Ratarion’s life is reduced to a fraction of the secondary success condition.
This entire encounter, not just the combat one but the social aspect as well, is supposed to make you all question everything that you are doing and understand that not everything in this world is black and white. Hendric, you’re advocating for saving Ratarion’s life, when he is one of a group of mercantile overlords with the blood of thousands on his hands. Saving a life is indeed a good act, but is saving the life of an unrepentant murderer? And Nox, you are actively choosing to attack a helpless man, but the man you are attacking is an unrepentant man with the blood of thousands on his hands. Killing a man is an evil act, but is killing a murderer? That’s the point: You. Don’t. Know. Neither of you are playing the scenario incorrectly, you are simply playing it correctly in different ways.
The scenario is supposed to present two options: Side with Suliji, a woman that has been hinted at as being a master manipulator and the mastermind behind this all, to finally rid the world of the Aspis Consortium; or to defy Suliji’s request and ultimately save the organization that has fought against the Society time and time again. There is no third option.
Nox’s actions haven’t doomed you all in the slightest. In fact, later on, you may find that Nox’s actions right here had little impact on the success or failure of the mission overall.
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Yes, I admit emotions are running high. I do not think anything I said here was abusive (maybe I could have just said "unfair" and not "hideously unfair").
Yes, I had a way I would have liked things to go. I did not insist on it or force it on anybody else. I offered a way out that I could stay true to my character. That offer wasn't accepted.
Sir Hendric swore here that we were not here to harm the Aspis, since that was his best understanding of the mission.
And our orders: "If, as we suspect, she plans to frame the Pathfinder Society, you need to stop her, and otherwise, you’ll be well-placed to take decisive action to gain us leverage over the Consortium toward a peaceful resolution of hostilities."
To me, that "otherwise" means that even if Suliji isn't trying to frame us, we can still benefit by gaining leverage over the Consortium.
Thank you for clarifying about the success conditions and the lack of possibility for compromise.
If Xon kills Ratarion, I do not see how the Society escapes blame. Even if Sir Hendric did not confess, a well-worded Commune would implicate the Society. The Consortium has ample Wishes at their disposal.
The moral dilemmas and intricate manipulations would make this a good novel. It's not fun being the one manipulated however.
My "third option" was Suliji abandoning her vengeance but remaining alive (she flees or surrenders, whatever), and we report back to Alexayn that there was no traitor. Suliji was doing what he wanted, as were the Patrons (following his example as a greedy bastard). And if he won't accept that, then Sir Hendric declares himself a traitor for breaking a contract and offers his life.
I do not intend to attack you by responding to the points you raise.
Um...That's actually a dead link, Hendric XD but I was able to extrapolate where it was that you said that (I didn't realize it was to the Aspis concierges).
That said, many things are lost over text, including facial expressions and intonations, so things can easily be misconstrued.
I hope that that resolved the situation. I'm going to advance the combat now, and I hope that everyone will be on the same page once I do so.
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Sorry guys. I am, apparently, wrong genre savvy and will probably pay for it with my life. :(
As for the Xon thing, my intention was to hopefully resolve the issue in a way that would leave Hendric's conscious clean, if angry with Nox, without having to knock him out. Since Xon is useless in the fight anyways, I figured that blaming it on the shadow and even "dismissing him" might allow us a loophole to prevent actual PVP.
In short, I was being to clever for my own good, and it backfired massively.
In character though, the "Path to hell" is just fine by Nox. He's not a holy knight of a god, he's a assassin without the prestige class. He is FAR more likely to kill someone, anyone, than risk letting that person kill others. Nox is absolutely the kind of person to answer the question of "Should we kill baby hitler" with a "Absolutely". That gets into ugly alignment debates, but that is his character and until now playing that way has worked out, and even helped in a few situations where somebody had to be the "Bad guy" of the group.
Either way, I guess I'm trying to say is I'm sorry for causing trouble. I don't know if I got played, and I don't really care. "Cause My character would do that" is a terrible excuse for making the game unfun for others, and I'm sorry that I did that even if it was on accident.
Honest question: where does it say that the shadow poofs if the dancer goes away, because I honestly couldn’t find it anywhere?
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If I may.
Though I have only joined you all for this final scenario, I do find it unfortunate that some individuals have placed a higher value on 'winning' over 'just playing the game'. Is getting both prestige so vital to your 'fun' that enjoying how the game is going is lesser? If it is, then you are entitled to play however you desire. I will not say that that style of play is wrong, for it is not my place to say such a thing. I will say though that such priorities are not enjoyable for me to play with, and I'd venture to assume that many others who play this game would agree.
The story is interesting, please let it be interesting. Complainting only when it's 'interesting' doesn't suit you is tiring, and I would even venture to say childish.
I am not calling out any particular individual with this post. However, if you feel that I am targeting you, maybe consider my words.
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Wow. That was... unexpected.
I will definitely get a dustpan and also chip in for the Rez (if I can't extort one out of the Patrons in-game).
Nox, I appreciate that you were trying to find a solution. I don't see how it could have worked (Sir Hendric heard you give the order and heard all of your whispering) but I appreciate that it was not your intention to be disruptive.
I also misread the situation. I thought Suliji doing something non-obvious on her turn meant she was not engaging in this fight and there was hope for a "nobody dies" solution.
@Suli - you make a good point. I do see myself in your comments, and take them to heart. I did not know about Ratarion's life and the second Prestige Point until the GM mentioned it, so I do not think that was a motivating factor for anyone. Playing my character was behind my decisions and I don't perceive any others as different. My emphasizing "the mission" rather than morality was an attempt to avoid alignment arguments first and foremost. Of all the reasons Sir Hendric had, "follow the mission as it was originally laid out" seemed the least controversial. It was not the most important or the most sound.
If the way to "win" this one is to side with Suliji, I'd rather "lose".
Because of the high intensity of all of this. I would like a break for a few days.
You know, I think that that’s a fair request. Let’s all just take a few days to recuperate and process and we can reconvene on, say, Friday. Anyone have any objections to that?
Perhaps Nox can play Kaldane for the rest of this fight?
That’s actually a really good idea!