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Having said that, if you actually do die from NOT succumbing to the dark side and NOT committing murder - and you aren't reborn in some sort of angelic form - I would seriously consider leaving that gaming group. Playing a paladin being challenged by corruption and the forces of evil is fun. Playing a paladin that is forced by the DM to succumb to evil or die is NOT fun.
This is exactly what is happening, read the previous thread.
If this was any other Player/GM i'd give the benefit of the doubt and think this would be an awesome if challenging story opportunity.
Read the previous thread. The GM is a dick, the GM is still being a dick.
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Throw a sufficient number of crows at random passerbys, then make a pun about them being "murdered."
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I'm inclined to agree with the "GM is being a dick" school of thought, particularly considering the previous thread.
However, there's a fair chance that the GM thinks this just a really cool plotline to play out, and has added the hit point loss to put pressure on the paladin. Which sucks, because permanent damage to a martial character's hit points is roughly on a par with permanently removing a sorcerer's spell per day slots, or permanently reducing a rogue's sneak attack damage. I'd probably have come up with some sort of progressive saving throw mechanic instead. But anyway, if we assume the GM thinks this is just cool, the answer is to simply run with it.
You should be given the opportunity to learn how to remove the corruption, and be able to do so before your character dies. Don't give in to the corruption. Be a paladin. If, however, your paladin dies before having the chance to remove the corruption, and would have survived if the corruption hadn't reduced his hit points, then you need to:
1) Demand to know how your paladin could have survived without giving in to the corruption. The GM should know this, because if he doesn't he really sucks at mechanics, which I can say because the GM should not be trying to kill/destroy/wreck your character, and should have left you a way out.
2) Explain that actively trying to remove your character is a dick move for a GM.
3) Walk out the door and never look back.
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I'm inclined to agree with the "GM is being a dick" school of thought, particularly considering the previous thread.
However, there's a fair chance that the GM thinks this just a really cool plotline to play out,
That's the main problem, the GM does think it's a really cool plotline, in fact he had the Paladin fall for "screwing up" the previous plotline the GM thought was really cool.
Your focus should be breaking the curse, not giving in to it. If the Magus got better by "resetting" his bonded item, maybe the same will happen with your paladin? Bound your weapon and smash it to bits. Maybe something evil had usurped your angelic assistance and making you call on more sinister forces. Just a theory. ;)
Take that feat I suggested in the previous thread. Retrain if needed (only takes a week). If you are not under something else's control. That feat will prevent you from ever killing anything intelligent that isn't destroyed at 0 hit points.
Already retrained for Golden Legion's Staying Blade. Made a sap for myself. And I'm going to try and get Divine Communion for my lvl. 11 feat to boot.
After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.
It sounds like the corruptions are tied in some fashion to the class abilities. What distinguishes your paladin from others (background/roleplaying or mechanically)?
Did your Paladin actually fall from the situation last time, or were you able to retain being a Paladin/make atonement?
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Reading through this, sounds like an idea I may steal from.This being said, there would be a premeditated way out, because that's only fair.
On another note, I see alot of people demanding a reward for sticking to the rightious path, like free rezs and powers ect, and I'd like to remind people that sometimes, fighting the good fight is its own reward. At the end of your days, as you kneel in dust and feel your life ebb away, and you can look back and see that the world is better for you having been in it, then you've been a good paladin. Not only in fighting evil, but in being a mentor and example to others, in making a difference when others faltered to act, in being a shoulder to cry upon and a hand to help others rise. And if you go to the Great Beyond with no greater reward than having made others lives better for your passing, and you can die content with that...
That, is what makes you a great Paladin.
But yeah, it can also mean your DM is a dick.
Your focus should be breaking the curse, not giving in to it. If the Magus got better by "resetting" his bonded item, maybe the same will happen with your paladin? Bound your weapon and smash it to bits. Maybe something evil had usurped your angelic assistance and making you call on more sinister forces. Just a theory. ;)It's a nice theory. But I somehow doubt it's my bonded weapon. I keep bonding it to weapons with the Holy property. if the spirit were evil, it wouldn't be able to bond to a Holy weapon, could it?
Maybe? If he's homebrewing the way the curses are afflicting you, all bets are off. Bonding with your weapon might summon both good and evil at the same time. The good party blessing your weapon, the evil part parasiting you with a corruption.
In my opinion, it's probably just a bad plot device if his intent is to make you fall with no means to prevent it. If there's a means to discover more about it and counter it, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
Given your description of the corruptions, it sounds like the GM is going with a storyline like "lose something important, restore it (potentially at great cost), and come out ahead.
Given that Evil Outsiders and other enemies in combat don't activate the "Premeditated Murder Healing", I'm not sure how you would actually murder someone, or is there some other requirement I'm missing.
Has the magus revealed any of the information he gleaned from his ritual?
Given your corruption, you basically have a few options:
1) Die via the corruption (and maybe get resurrected) without succumbing to the murder hobo urge -- this might be your best option.
2) Succumb to the corruption, go on a murder hobo killing spree, atone and get your paladinhood back (somehow).
3) Fall, embrace your falling and become some sort of anti-paladin.
or
4) You could run with the Premeditated Murder part of the scenario and use Detect Evil and Smite as "judge and jury" and essentially go on a purge of all evil "innocent" creatures in the land.
Maybe wer're looking at this all wrong! A paladin is supposed to save others, serve others, and sacrifice for others. What if instead of saving yourself, you focus on saving the shamin, even to the detriment to yourself. His corruption seems to be advancing a bit more quickly than yours, so rescue who you can first!
Then, if that dosen't work, plead the 8th.
Personally, I feel my best bet would be to fall on my blade. Like how Iomedae convinced the Black Prince to do in the Eighth Act of Iomedae.
Having just read this, this sounds like exactly what needs to be done. Just be sure to play it up.
And arrange for a resurrection beforehand.
Right, but yours is more obvious. Meanwhile the shaman is becoming undead. If you can hold out until the end then you die yourself and pass onto the other side. If the shaman's ends first, he may not be allowed to move on. Not to mention the forces of undeath eventually erodez and overwhealms a creatures reasoning. Your choice may mean fall or death, but your shaman may not get that choice...
Goodness... are you adventuring in Ravenloft?!
This GM would try even my legendary patience.
Well death 'should' solve this one way or the other.
Tell me he at least let you atone and get your class back before springing this mess on you?
Madokar,
I really can't tell if the GM honestly thinks this form of drama is good GMing (sure, it can be, when the players are warned about it as players before hand, like, in session 0, and all folks agree that this will be a crazy roller-coaster, moral/ethical dilemma, no good option sometimes, fiat with a purpose filled game)
Or if this is just an excuse for indeed being a jerk GM.
For all of the patience, and hard work you have put into making this paladin work despite it all, I hope for your sake there is a "way out." Cause then we get a cool tale, but if there is not...
Uggg...players that play paladins well should be rewarded, not tormented by constant issues.
If you are anywhere near Rochester, NY, I and a few of my gaming group would gladly find you a seat, where GOOD RP is encouraged and rewarded, and we do that thing...what was it called...oh yeah, communicate as reasonable people.
Best of luck either way man! And never forget that it is sad but true, no gaming is better than bad gaming. It the taste gets too sour, don't just stick it out and let it ruin your love of what is supposed to be a fun social game.
If you have already fallen, then this might be a way to get your paladinhood back.
Have the cleric hit you with an atonement, then "Do the 8th".
Make sure you have a rez handy.
My GM set up a situation for the party. Various corruptions (not related to Horror Adventures) that have started to warp the party members into something... else. We managed to solve one of them. Due to circumstances, the Bladebound Magus had his Black Blade destroyed. This has removed his corruption, and he is more or less "whole" again.
That just leaves me and the Shaman left with corruptions. The Shaman is okay for now, aside from having no flesh on his forearms and a Paralyzing touch. But my Paladin now has a constant Life Drain effect that takes off 2 HP a day that can't be healed or regenerated normally. There is one way to overcome this. The GM has given my paladin the ability "Premeditated Murder Healing".
My paladin regains 1d8 HP for every sentient creature murdered with an INT of 3 or higher. This effect activates whenever my paladin directly murders someone or arranges a situation that causes someone's death in the presence of the paladin. Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability.
My paladin is not about to become a serial killer. He has 140 HP at Level 10. That means he has 70 days to resolve this before he gets down to 0 HP. So I'm starting to feel a little pigeonholed at the moment.
Yeah, this is a completely terrible mechanic that your GM is trying to impose for whatever reason. Probably because he wants to make your Paladin fall. I would simply tell him you're going to quit unless he gives you another method of removing/mitigating it.
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Talk to your DM outside of the game. Don't complain, likely your DM thinks this whole scenario is a brilliant idea and he not only won't understand your complaints but will take them as a personal affront. Instead, throw out your ideas on how you plan to approach things and ask about what kind of support you can expect.
For example, if (as people up-thread have suggested) you stick by your paladin vows and seek to do as much good in your remaining time before the curse claims you, talk to the DM about what you can accomplish and where to look for hints regarding overcoming the curse through relentless purity.
The DM has presented a seemingly inescapable dilemma to build up the narrative tension. From the Magus' tale, he wants this to be a major narrative upheaval, rather than just something needlessly cruel. After all, the Magus overcame their curse in the end and at least narratively is better off for it. In character: fight it and seek out aid amongst the allies of your god. Out of character: work with the DM to get hints on how to approach things; only your DM knows the potential ways out.
Also, with the facts as presented, trying to weasel your way around the restrictions is definitely against the spirit of being a Paladin of Iomedae.
Right sit down and talk to him like adults. Explain D&D is a Game, the idea of a Game is to have Fun, and you're not having Fun.
If that doesnt work, try the old passive-aggressive way out. "I see I have fallen from my Goddesses grace. the only way out of this curse is to violate my vows. I go into the wilderness and sit quietly in a cave until I die."
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That just leaves me and the Shaman left with corruptions. The Shaman is okay for now, aside from having no flesh on his forearms and a Paralyzing touch. But my Paladin now has a constant Life Drain effect that takes off 2 HP a day that can't be healed or regenerated normally. There is one way to overcome this. The GM has given my paladin the ability "Premeditated Murder Healing".
My paladin regains 1d8 HP for every sentient creature murdered with an INT of 3 or higher. This effect activates whenever my paladin directly murders someone or arranges a situation that causes someone's death in the presence of the paladin. Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability.
My paladin is not about to become a serial killer. He has 140 HP at Level 10. That means he has 70 days to resolve this before he gets down to 0 HP. So I'm starting to feel a little pigeonholed at the moment.
Well, you are a little pigeonholed at the moment.
A lot of how to respond depends on how much you trust your GM, and based the last thread, I could see why your trust might be a little ... shaken.
I'd advise (as you're planning) to roleplay it like a Paladin. Refuse to kill anything for the purpose of dispelling the curse.
- I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
- I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
- I will suffer death before dishonor.
I wouldn't 'fall on my sword' unless your GM is actively forcing your character to commit evil acts. Have faith in the Inheritor, and keep to the code. :-)
Talking with your GM OOC, as several people have advised, is probably also a good idea.
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So talk with him. Dont tell him what he is doing is wrong, dont put blame on him, just tell him you're not having fun anymore.
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I'm not convinced that the GM is some kind of Paladin-bullying, spiteful, conniving scumbag who wants to clamp down on player agency here.
Given that in the last thread it was explained that the group in general respect the guy and have had a good history with him, it's much more likely there's a bunch of misconceptions and communication issues/confusions between the two.
If it was established with the group that he was gonna do some brutal things to the characters to play up dramatic tension and story, then it's likely this has just been handled poorly - it has a lot of potential for great storytelling, especially if it's intended to be a very flavourful (if extremely punishing) timer to cure the curse and not actually an intent to kill.
People tend to have very different opinions on how Paladins work especially, and I can see that causing a ton of issues - very different from the GM being an a~+!+*! though.
I do like the righteous, hammed-up self-sacrifice plan. I worry that the GM is going to have only one specific method cure the curse and not try to reward other plans.
In any case, I think the 'ditch this GM' posts are unnecessary. It really sounds more like the problems are specifically with his strange concept of Paladin conduct.
I think suicide is one thing but the DM clearly wants something special here.
So here's my suggestion. Play up the hunger. Play up the fact it's gnawing at you. Demanding you take a life to live.
Then go to the church. Pray before your deity. And say "if there is a life to premeditate to kill, let it be this one. You need to kill to live, I give you only death."
Then kill yourself WITH the power.
Because that's really the secret isn't it. That you end something by killing it with itself. Just like the black blade was the focus of its own redemption, so shall you use your corruption to end itself.
This should allow a full restoration of self. And if it doesn't, you still did the right thing and died a hero.
Don't just commit suicide (premeditated murder if there ever was) use it to kill itself.
This is a fantastic idea.
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So talk with him. Dont tell him what he is doing is wrong, dont put blame on him, just tell him you're not having fun anymore.
I would definitely try that at some point. If he tries to brush it off, and you have the nerves for it, roll with the punch. Have your paladin soldier on to the end, not fearing death or what lies beyond. Look for a way out, of course, but just endure the HP loss and do not compromise. If you die, then you die, but Pharasma's judgement will not find you lacking.
In enduring, grow stronger.
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As it so happens I have relatives in Edmonton, if I end up there again, the first round of beers is on me Madokar.
YEAH Dak'kon quote!!!!!!!
(not to be a stickler, but "Endure, and in enduring, grow strong." is the offical Dak'kon quote of the day ;) )
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I think suicide is one thing but the DM clearly wants something special here.
So here's my suggestion. Play up the hunger. Play up the fact it's gnawing at you. Demanding you take a life to live.
Then go to the church. Pray before your deity. And say "if there is a life to premeditate to kill, let it be this one. You need to kill to live, I give you only death."
Then kill yourself WITH the power.
Because that's really the secret isn't it. That you end something by killing it with itself. Just like the black blade was the focus of its own redemption, so shall you use your corruption to end itself.
This should allow a full restoration of self. And if it doesn't, you still did the right thing and died a hero.
Don't just commit suicide (premeditated murder if there ever was) use it to kill itself.
I really like this suggestion. This is something I'd consider doing in your place.
That said, I would talk to the GM before you execute this plan. Explain what you plan to do and how.
That can give the GM a chance to stop you if that "is not the plan" and he doesn't want to further derail things. If that happens use the chance to ask what for more guidance.
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So talk with him. Dont tell him what he is doing is wrong, dont put blame on him, just tell him you're not having fun anymore.
This is good advice. Tell him you are not having fun and see how he reacts. If he is a good GM, he will try to modify things so that everyone is having fun. If he doesn't just leave...What is the point of playing a game recreationally if you are not having fun? Sure, you still have to go to work if you are not having fun, but don't put up with that sh*t in your free time.
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If Trump wins...you just might very soon... :)
Doc Deth does give sound advice quite often I have noticed.
(well played there sir!)
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Doc Deth does give sound advice quite often I have noticed.
Age based wisdom modifiers, that's all. ;-)
If you want ways to solve this w/o murdering people, you need to tell us more about the corruptions bit. How did you get them? Why did destroying the black blade restore the magus? How did he know it would?We don't know the sources of the corruptions. They just started happening. And there was no indication that destroying the Black Blade would end the Magi's corruption. There was a whole chain of events that led to the Blade's destruction. I even made a thread that covered most of that mess.
After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.
The Shaman is slowly becoming undead. He became gaunt (the GM specifically showed pictures of Holocaust survivors to give an idea of what the Shaman is looking like), developed a black ichor instead of blood, and now has no flesh on his forearms. As a result of the latest corruption for the Shaman, he now has a lich's Paralyzing Touch ability.
As for my paladin, he's developed Infernal/ Abyssal traits. At level 10, my paladin has large wings with 60 ft fly speed and poor maneuverability. There are other bonuses, like a +2 bonus to STR and CON, Acid Resist 15, Regen 5, and a +4 bonus to FORT saves to overcome Poison effects.
I'd play this corruption out and fall as Paladin rising and anti-paladin with wings. I would chaotic evil stupid, I'd go like Dexter as serial killer hunting bad guys enjoying the hunt and the kill. I'd roleplay out the struggle, resisting at first, then finding bad guys to kill, that might work for bit but soon I'd be killing them to survive and starting to enjoy it. Then turn to the darkside as curse progressed.
Could be that's cure though. Resisting to bitter end.