Crowdforging ? or whatever..

Maybe I'm confused, have we started Crowdforging PFO yet or does that come later. This all looks like a typical mmo forum , I don't see any difference that would make this forum Crowdforging , instead of just the same old forum debates but it's a different game.

Seriously , shouldn't something be different here ,like the rules for posting if we are doing Crowdforging. Maybe we need an actual game to discuss and then it will be crowdforging but still what will keep this forum from looking just like all the other mmo forums that don't change the game at all, not from a lack of opinions expressed about what will make the game better but what are the devs supposed to do with it? Sort thru the maze of discussion and follow every tangent of arguement to get to what they want?

Did I miss the instructions we got on how to Crowdforge and what the devs want us to do specifically? People are asking for anything that pops into their head to be put in the game, that cant be a part of how PFO is being designed and developed so can someone direct me to the Crowdforging forum or is what I read here it?

If the devs are finding this forum useful in making the game I would like to know how. It's like a pot of soup with 15 cooks putting in what they like.I would prefer they just make the game as they want and trust their ideas and vision than think they might listen to some of these so called improvements.

Did we get told we should help design the game or does everyone just do that without getting asked , no matter what game forum it is.

Anyway , any attempt to crowdforge gets endless bs added to it , that don't work for me, its the same old mmo forum drama done for personal entertainment.

I'll just post Mr. Dancey's response so he doesn't have to copy and paste. ^_^

Notmyrealname wrote:

Maybe I'm confused, have we started Crowdforging PFO yet or does that come later.

Yes to both questions.

Your comments and feedback are impacting the design and have impacted the design. At this point our objective is to get basic game systems built and ready for the Early Adopters to begin to use. As time progresses and more of that work finishes we will have more and more precise systems for generating and using player feedback.

We have been theorycrafting and the developers have been reading our thoughts, positive and negative. Sometimes, not always, when they want to see how we feel about something that they think will work they'll run it up the flagpole on the forums in the open. And we theorycraft. They get to see our take on it. Some of us will like it, some of us will hate it, and many say nothing while they munch popcorn, eyes wide and alert. Sure its informal, but because the developers allow themselves to interact with us they will be affected because they can, and are human rather than ledger books.

Having a hidden category for Goblin Squad Members to communicate in would alleviate some of this issue.

I'll just post Mr. Dancey's response so he doesn't have to copy and paste. ^_^

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Notmyrealname wrote:

Maybe I'm confused, have we started Crowdforging PFO yet or does that come later.

Yes to both questions.

Your comments and feedback are impacting the design and have impacted the design. At this point our objective is to get basic game systems built and ready for the Early Adopters to begin to use. As time progresses and more of that work finishes we will have more and more precise systems for generating and using player feedback.

Well I cant help but wonder and have to ask , what ideas from forum posts got used to change what in the game? I'm looking for more than a pat on the back about how useful we all are.

Maybe I'm confused, have we started Crowdforging PFO yet or does that come later. This all looks like a typical mmo forum , I don't see any difference that would make this forum Crowdforging , instead of just the same old forum debates but it's a different game.

Seriously , shouldn't something be different here ,like the rules for posting if we are doing Crowdforging. Maybe we need an actual game to discuss and then it will be crowdforging but still what will keep this forum from looking just like all the other mmo forums that don't change the game at all, not from a lack of opinions expressed about what will make the game better but what are the devs supposed to do with it? Sort thru the maze of discussion and follow every tangent of arguement to get to what they want?

Did I miss the instructions we got on how to Crowdforge and what the devs want us to do specifically? People are asking for anything that pops into their head to be put in the game, that cant be a part of how PFO is being designed and developed so can someone direct me to the Crowdforging forum or is what I read here it?

If the devs are finding this forum useful in making the game I would like to know how. It's like a pot of soup with 15 cooks putting in what they like.I would prefer they just make the game as they want and trust their ideas and vision than think they might listen to some of these so called improvements.

Did we get told we should help design the game or does everyone just do that without getting asked , no matter what game forum it is.

Anyway , any attempt to crowdforge gets endless bs added to it , that don't work for me, its the same old mmo forum drama done for personal entertainment.

We have been told (by GW) that they read the forums and do get some important feedback from it. That said, I do agree that about 99% of what we do here is useless to them.

I see it like this:

The forum is important to keep abreast of what is going on because the Devs do comment and answer questions sometimes. Thank You GW! :)

Some want to make sure that the game is represented accurately to the public that comes along and "grazes" info. There is a HUGE difference in opinion as to what is "accurate".

Some want to propose ideas and wishes for content. Some on philosophy behind content. Some want theirs to be the last word on the subject, thinking that it will influence development.

Some come for the entertainment in a subject that we are all very much looking forward to.

Unfortunately, mostly debating opinions is really a never ending issue. I will say that some of the things that I have read here have caused me to "think" from a broader viewpoint and modify my own opinion on some things. I find value in that.

This is really a very primitive stage of crowdforging because it does add some things of value for GW (admittedly a minimal amount) but it has no parameters to keep it semi organized.

So, no I don't think that this is exactly what GW means as "Crowdforging" yet. More like "Crowdstorming".

Having a hidden category for Goblin Squad Members to communicate in would alleviate some of this issue.

What issue is of concern here? Most communication is already being done by Goblin Squad members.

One thing I noticed, is that Unity sells a small version of their tools for like, $70. Perhaps I'm not technical enough to know, or whatever, but I'm not sure why GW isn't letting people submit their own assets for approval.

UGC's value has been displayed very well, particularly with the ES Single-player games. While I'm not advocating entire Mods, because they'd have to go through all the code. Things like animations, monster models, spell effects, I think could be done in Unity, and then submitted for approval to GW (with the understanding, of course, that GW is in no way obligated to approve of anything).

I think it would get us a lot more content a lot faster, and in fact, that's originally what I thought the term "Crowdforging" meant.

The main reason for not doing it at this point is that they would need to set up a system for submission and evaluation of UGC. I think they want to deliver the MVP before doing so.

what ideas from forum posts got used to change what in the game? I'm looking for more than a pat on the back about how useful we all are.

If you tracked the changes we've described to various systems in the Dev blogs, most of those changes are the result of reading your feedback. It would be impossible to say "X message changed Y feature" because that's not how the process works. We consider all the feedback we can, debate it, debate our own internal visions for the game (which are far from monolithic) then revise the plan if we feel changes are warranted.

The main reasons we don't have a UGC pipeline yet is that we are still defining core attributes of the art pipeline. We use hand-built animation rigs. We are still iterating with Paizo on how the world of Pathfinder Online "looks" with their approval. We are building the assets we need for the features that will be in Early Enrollment and not spending time on stuff to come later. And we have no spare bandwidth for a review and approval process.

The main reasons we don't have a UGC pipeline yet is that we are still defining core attributes of the art pipeline. We use hand-built animation rigs. We are still iterating with Paizo on how the world of Pathfinder Online "looks" with their approval. We are building the assets we need for the features that will be in Early Enrollment and not spending time on stuff to come later. And we have no spare bandwidth for a review and approval process.

Fair enough. So, it sounds from that post, that UGC is still on the table for further on down the line... Am I right?

I'm looking for more than a pat on the back about how useful we all are.

Then have you thought about applying for a job with the company?

Because I'm not sure what sort of reward you think you are deserving-of without being directly part of the production.

Are your thoughts worth a salary?

One thing I noticed, is that Unity sells a small version of their tools for like, $70.

Actually Unity has a free version. Where it can get expensive generating new content is that any new art assets would be produced in programs like Maya, which is not inexpensive. But even there I believe there are a few open source tools that could be used to build models and paint skins.

If you remember the Aurora Toolset from Neverwinter Nights, Unity is like the Aurora Toolset. All the art assets would have to be imported, and the metadata 'properties' of any objects we wanted to offer would have to fit into their database architecture. It isn't an insignificant task. So yes on one hand it would be faster but on a couple of other hands it would likely get in the way and do more harm than good at this point.

Of note" when/if they got far enough along (after release) to offer a way for us to build encounters or dungeons for the game it will likely be a specialized case of Unity filled with GW's objects for us to use.

Notmyrealname wrote:

I'm looking for more than a pat on the back about how useful we all are.

Then have you thought about applying for a job with the company?

Because I'm not sure what sort of reward you think you are deserving-of without being directly part of the production.

Are your thoughts worth a salary?

Who wouldn't want to work for PFO? What I meant was , specific examples of what has been useful is much better than a general 'we value your input' type statement. Money had nothing to do with it.

Ryan did try and share with us a format he felt might be helpful for such things. I'll try and dig it up, though Nihimon will likely ninja me.
~~edit~~
original post here (clicky clicky)

Some guidelines to help with ideas likely to attract a lot of support from your peers:

1: Should result in a system, not a one-time action. Remember that we need things characters can do thousands of times, and by tens of thousands of characters in parallel.

2: Should create meaningful human interaction. Something you do that nobody else ever knows about isn't helpful.

3: Should involve group action. An easy way to ensure #2, and leads to interesting potential connections to large game systems like economy, warfare or hex development.

4: Should be classifiable as exploration, development, domination or adventure content.

5: The wider the set of characters that can use the idea the broader support for that idea will be. You're asking people to make either/or tradeoffs, so you need to consider who would vote for a feature for you that meant some feature for them would not happen.

Hmm. Nihimon must be sleeping or he's off his game today...

Qallz wrote:

One thing I noticed, is that Unity sells a small version of their tools for like, $70.

Actually Unity has a free version. Where it can get expensive generating new content is that any new art assets would be produced in programs like Maya, which is not inexpensive. But even there I believe there are a few open source tools that could be used to build models and paint skins.

If you remember the Aurora Toolset from Neverwinter Nights, Unity is like the Aurora Toolset. All the art assets would have to be imported, and the metadata 'properties' of any objects we wanted to offer would have to fit into their database architecture. It isn't an insignificant task. So yes on one hand it would be faster but on a couple of other hands it would likely get in the way and do more harm than good at this point.

Of note" when/if they got far enough along (after release) to offer a way for us to build encounters or dungeons for the game it will likely be a specialized case of Unity filled with GW's objects for us to use.

Yea, that sounds good as well, I've heard of Maya. Reason I suggested Unity was just because I know that's what PFO is using.

I did play a lot of NWN, but sadly, never played around with Aurora (though I did play on servers which were built with the tool, so I remember how good it was). Still, I guess I can see why they're not doing it just yet, if it's that much of a hassle.

Hopefully down the line there will be an ability to add more UGC. I see UGC as the "next step" in MMO's. The final thing that will allow them to be built faster, better, and with a smaller budget. In the same way that we're moving away from Themeparks and towards Sandboxes, I think in the future, we'll move away from Sandboxes and towards Sandboxes with a whole lot of UGC, where the Dev's job is just to describe vividly what they want, offer concept art, and then approve/disapprove the UGC. That would be cool. People could even submit Concept Art as well.

Hmm. Nihimon must be sleeping or he's off his game today...

Isn't The Libramonancer usually scarce on weekends?

Ryan has said more than once he wants to offer us the ability to produce UGC when the time is right, but cautioned it would surely be well after release. He also mentioned he would like for the creators of UGC to be able to share in the profits generated selling their products on the in-game store if that could be worked out. I think it is a great idea if the review process is robust enough so that only the highest quality encounters make it through vetting.

Having a hidden category for Goblin Squad Members to communicate in would alleviate some of this issue.

I wasn't thinking of doing anything hidden, but some kind of separation between the usual forum talk and crowdforging discussion . With special rules for what is not allowed in crowdforging discussion , rules that would be too strict for normal mmo forum talk . It is the mixing of the two things together that I believe will cause many to not participate in crowdforging , because they are unwilling to put up with the abuse that is typical in conversations about changing an mmo. If people want to fling mud they can do it in the normal section of the forum but serious crowdforgers will have a separate section with rules that keep things focused and not personal, but about ideas.

How many people really want to read the personal war between players while they are trying to discuss game changes, it is typical on mmo forums but crowdforging should be moderated differently . We don't want the usual bullying to drive out people interested in crowdforging. The personal conflicts should be kept out of it, by enforcing a stricter set of rules on what can be said.

Or am I the only one who thinks discussions on changing a game degenerate into personal conflict and there should be a higher standard for crowdforging.

Keep in mind that personal attacks and insults are already forbidden by the forum rules.

Hmm. Nihimon must be sleeping or he's off his game today...

Got a laugh from me: Naw, Nihimon subs onto the bench on week-ends. :)

I tend to think the devs want us to think a certain way as much as we want them to use our ideas!

You guys are awesome :)