Navior's Serpent's Skull

Game Master Navior


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Totally taking credit for the 29 points of Sneak Attack damage Douena's flank provided! (They're NPCs; they don't care.) ;D

Dax, if you have a spell, target #5. Two's hurt and surrounded and stunned and weaponless.


Douena totally deserves the credit! If she hadn't been there, they wouldn't have gotten those sneak attacks and #4 would still be standing. :)


To be fair, #5's noticeably hurt himself after Lorenz's arrows. After that scorching ray, I'm pretty sure he's dead. But he could have attacked this round if Urza hadn't taken him out, when #2 couldn't have. :)


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness

@Lorekeeper: I'm curious about something. You could've taken Monk of the Four Winds with Mahjik but you didn't. Is it because you think Stunning Fist is better overall than doing extra elemental damage on top of your regular damage?

I'm just curious because I was thinking about taking that archetype for a pc of mine and not real sure if I wanna swap out Stunning fist for such.

Everything else the archetype replaces is no biggie to me. But stunning fist can be pretty dang cool. Especially at higher levels when you start running into sickened and staggered fists. That's cool.

And I tend to look at it like, "Which one will be more efficient at higher levels." Probably not good to base everything off of that but it's in my nature to plan ahead. I can't help it. :) Anyway, I guess with SF at higher levels, you get these creatures with amazing saves so maybe it's really not worth it.

And then there's 3d6/4d6 damage at higher levels which your only looking at somewhere between 10 to 15 points of damage with each hit. 'Course, now that I think about it, if you're flurrying and hitting 3 out of 6 times, that's 30 to 45 points of damage. This is all barring the fact they don't have elemental resistance to everything elemental of course.

So what is your take on it?


@Javell:

Actually I took Monk of the Empty Hand because I think it is one of the strongest monk archetypes (particularly for the time when Mahjik was made, but even now still). The ideal situation for Mahjik hasn't really come about to flurry random implements of whatever (nor do I always remember the alternate flurry options) - but in theory if we picked up a powerful weapon, say a +1 holy flaming bardiche, or any weapon really, then Mahjik is the most likely to be able to use it to highest effect.

Generally speaking, the archetype gives up the damage-dice on the weapon - but retains the ability to flurry (and thus make use of the extra weapon properties like flaming on all attacks). That is as versatile as things get. Imagine a +1 flaming battleaxe. Any character could wield it as a 1-attack 1d10+1d6fire. Mahjik gets to wield it as a 2-attack 1d6+1d6(fire) (+ki attack). At level 6 that would be 3-attack 1d8+1d6(fire) and still have a ki attack as an option (this assumes taking the Improvised Weapon Mastery feat, which Mahjik is planning on.) At level 8 that would be 4 attacks (and a potential 5th attack via ki).

But, the Empty Hand payout really comes from level 11 onwards, where the monk can apply any weapon special ability to whatever he wields using ki. Its pretty much like an inquisitor that can bane vs whatever he is fighting - but the Empty Hand can use bane as well as any other weapon property (within ki cost). And after the bane (or/and other properties) is applied, he still gets to flurry that same weapon for all his attacks.

Then, finally, *I* think it is supremely cool to wield a +1 undead bane chair of disruption just because a chair is at hand and undead bane and disruption are rather relevant for the situation at hand.

In contrast, the Stunning Fist vs Elemental Fist issue hasn't really entered my thoughts. I prefer Stunning Fist as a more purist construct; I would definitely play the Elemental Fists on certain character concepts - but the feat essentially puts a bit of a feat-strain on the character as the appropriate style feats would be semi-required to make the most out of the Elemental Fist feat (whereas Stunning Fist's payout is up front, but you get additional options for free as you level up).

I would not really use Elemental Fist as a vehicle to deal damage; if damage output is a concern, then you shouldn't look at an ability that gives you a limited number of times a day that you can add a bit of extra damage to 1 attack a round.

What I *do* like about the Monk of the Four Winds is the high level time-stop ability that grants you numerous standard actions. The use of the standard actions is somewhat restrictive, and the ki cost is prohibitive, but it is probably the only viable way to build a wizened perverted sage who steals the panties that cute girls are wearing.

...

As an aside: the new Faiths and Philosophies Player Companion is slated to introduce Meditation feats, which should be right up a monk character's alley - I'd definitely try to hold out with the exact build if possible until you see what these are.


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness
LoreKeeper wrote:

Actually I took Monk of the Empty Hand because I think it is one of the strongest monk archetypes (particularly for the time when Mahjik was made, but even now still). The ideal situation for Mahjik hasn't really come about to flurry random implements of whatever (nor do I always remember the alternate flurry options) - but in theory if we picked up a powerful weapon, say a +1 holy flaming bardiche, or any weapon really, then Mahjik is the most likely to be able to use it to highest effect.

Generally speaking, the archetype gives up the damage-dice on the weapon - but retains the ability to flurry (and thus make use of the extra weapon properties like flaming on all attacks). That is as versatile as things get. Imagine a +1 flaming battleaxe. Any character could wield it as a 1-attack 1d10+1d6fire. Mahjik gets to wield it as a 2-attack 1d6+1d6(fire) (+ki attack). At level 6 that would be 3-attack 1d8+1d6(fire) and still have a ki attack as an option (this assumes taking the Improvised Weapon Mastery feat, which Mahjik is planning on.) At level 8 that would be 4 attacks (and a potential 5th attack via ki).

But, the Empty Hand payout really comes from level 11 onwards, where the monk can apply any weapon special ability to whatever he wields using ki. Its pretty much like an inquisitor that can bane vs whatever he is fighting - but the Empty Hand can use bane as well as any other weapon property (within ki cost). And after the bane (or/and other properties) is applied, he still gets to flurry that same weapon for all his attacks.

Then, finally, *I* think it is supremely cool to wield a +1 undead bane chair of disruption just because a chair is at hand and undead bane and disruption are rather relevant for the situation at hand.

Okay, now that's just freaking cool. Especially from 11th level on. Wow. I didn't even realize empty hand was so dang 'powerful'. That's awesome. I've got to look into that more. And the chair bit would be totally cool to see. I can totally see it now: "I don't wanna touch those guys so, hm, what could I use... oh look, a chair! Perfect." You don't see that, like, ever. :)

Quote:
In contrast, the Stunning Fist vs Elemental Fist issue hasn't really entered my thoughts. I prefer Stunning Fist as a more purist construct; I would definitely play the Elemental Fists on certain character concepts - but the feat essentially puts a bit of a feat-strain on the character as the appropriate style feats would be semi-required to make the most out of the Elemental Fist feat (whereas Stunning Fist's payout is up front, but you get additional options for free as you level up).

Now, I didn't even realize it's somewhat of a feat drain. Thanks for the heads up on that. I just took a gander at it to see what it replaced. Didn't know about the feats issue.

Quote:

I would not really use Elemental Fist as a vehicle to deal damage; if damage output is a concern, then you shouldn't look at an ability that gives you a limited number of times a day that you can add a bit of extra damage to 1 attack a round.

What I *do* like about the Monk of the Four Winds is the high level time-stop ability that grants you numerous standard actions. The use of the standard actions is somewhat restrictive, and the ki cost is prohibitive, but it is probably the only viable way to build a wizened perverted sage who steals the panties that cute girls are wearing.

Yeah the several standard actions is pretty cool. But like you say, a bit restrictive.

Quote:
As an aside: the new Faiths and Philosophies Player Companion is slated to introduce Meditation feats, which should be right up a monk character's alley - I'd definitely try to hold out with the exact build if possible until you see what these are.

Interesting. Will have to look into that when it comes out.

Thanks for the input!


LoreKeeper wrote:
in theory if we picked up a powerful weapon, say a +1 holy flaming bardiche, or any weapon really, then Mahjik is the most likely to be able to use it to highest effect.

Maybe you should stun Lorenz and take the sword he never uses. ;)


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness

My posting is more than likely gonna be scarce over the next few days starting tomorrow. Due to a bit of vacation time and all. Should be good around Wednesday or Thursday though. Maybe I get something out there but in case I don't, y'all know why.


No problem, Javell. Have a good vacation!


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness

Thanks!


Joana wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
in theory if we picked up a powerful weapon, say a +1 holy flaming bardiche, or any weapon really, then Mahjik is the most likely to be able to use it to highest effect.
Maybe you should stun Lorenz and take the sword he never uses. ;)

hehehe - I imagine we'll find something even betterer. (Better than a +1 at least). We're (hopefully?) almost level 6 - surely there'll be some set piece where somebody has loot worth collecting.

Shadow Lodge

I just realzed Makoa has no one-handed weapons. Which means his Power Attack damage s cut in half. *head desk*


Ooh, belt of tumbling! Douena wants it. Anyone else? Mahjik?


Douena is welcome to it. Especially if she plans on keeping up with the random jumps between oversized death dealers.


Unless anyone else speaks up, I'll assume Douena's wearing it then.

Shadow Lodge

Douena Trestleben wrote:
Makoa, are you with Mahjik on the spirit quest matter? I see you posting in Agartha, DB3. ;)

SPPYYYY!!! XD


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness

HA! I swear, looking at the map, I feel like I'm in a small town. Dang there's a lot of people in this group. I hope this AP is built for 17 pc's Navior, else, you got a LOT of tweaking to do. ;)


It's really not. The adventure assumes four PCs and also assumes that all your NPC allies (who you worked really hard at making allies in the first adventure) all go off and join competing factions and so don't actually travel with you any more.

So I have to do a lot of tweaking. Most of the time, it just means increasing the number of opponents, but sometimes I boost the enemies' abilities if increased numbers don't make sense. And occasionally--just occasionally--I don't make any changes at all and let you have a nice cakewalk. :)

Once you reach your destination, it'll be a lot easier to handle the NPC situation.


Ha! Check out Douena's spells prepared. New strikethrough tag FTW!


Cool! Nah, too colloquial.
Excellent! Meh.
Awesome! Yeah, that'll do.

:)


Suave. Wow. Much vissual. Much splendur. So doge.

Sorry, couldn't resist trying out the new doge speak meme. I've noticed it in the last week or so on Imgur. The strikethrough is clever, I like it. :)


Tar'kanas, are you readying like Lorenz or just passing on your standard action this round?


Male Humanly Awesome 'n Totally Rockin' Paladin of Greatness

He'll be ready to attack like Lorenz.


Good to know, Javell!

I probably won't get a chance to update the battle until Monday since next up is Sasha (who will just delay) and then Zakiyya, whose actions will trigger off everyone else's. :)


You mean she's not going to listen to reason and apologize?

Shadow Lodge

And when we were being generous and not attacking too.

We tried, Douena!


And I'm immensely proud of you all, especially Pezock. We all know it must take superhuman, er, supertengu levels of discipline for him not to charge in recklessly.

How is he ever going to learn that it's not okay to fight everyone we meet when everyone we meet insists on fighting us? I think this adventure is promoting violence-is-always-the-answer murderhoboism. ;)


Hah! Pezock is probably secretly still hopeful that Mahjik will take the drugs.


Even if he wasn't before, he'll certainly try to make Mahjik take the drugs now! :)

One of the nice things about having NPCs in the party is that they make ideal targets for mental control. :)


19 misses and 17 fails: I'm guessing this isn't an encounter of the cakewalk variety mentioned above. :P

Shadow Lodge

I'd post right now, but I'm not feeling well. I'll take Makoa's action(charge Zakkiya and Power Bite) in the morning if I feel better.


While Douena's untrained Knowledge skills are more an intentional character choice than a lack of skill points (although those cleric levels are killing her rogue skills) -- the whole point of her is that she meets everything naively on its own terms rather than having preconceived notions about it -- I can't help but think that at some point our inability to know anything about what we're facing (like what a vulnerability to cold iron means) will come back to bite us.

See, this is why we reincarnated Jask. Someone's got to know stuff.


Joana wrote:
19 misses and 17 fails: I'm guessing this isn't an encounter of the cakewalk variety mentioned above. :P

Not a cakewalk, no. However, crazily enough, I haven't altered anything about it. It's exactly as it is in the book.


Critting with Douena is just depressing. I'd almost rather miss. :P


That crit is the stuff of legends ;) hahahaha

Navior wrote:
Not a cakewalk, no. However, crazily enough, I haven't altered anything about it. It's exactly as it is in the book.

Does the book expect this encounter at level 5 with 3000gp-ish wealth per character?

...that aside... our characters are not min-maxed beasts; this is a tough fight we've got on our hands. We'll see how it turns out.


Yeah, there's more of us than the adventure expects with all the NPCs ... but considering that all of us might as well be fighting with sticks and stones (no magic weapons to help us hit and overcome DR) and we have no save-boosting items, it's pretty bleak.

That said, monsters with super-DR generally have fewer hp than ones that can expect to be hit every round. Douena's 1d3-1 isn't going to get it done quickly enough, but if Makoa can hit and get some decent damage rolls, he can overcome her DR.

Urza Sha'rahad wrote:
This would give him +2 morale bonus and +2 resistance bonus to that save.

Hey, good catch, Dax! I went back in the thread hoping he'd had to sit thorugh Aerys's poem for the +1 vs. compulsion like the rest of us, but he joined the group after Gelik had already started reciting so only got the end of it.


Joana wrote:
Hey, good catch, Dax! I went back in the thread hoping he'd had to sit thorugh Aerys's poem for the +1 vs. compulsion like the rest of us, but he joined the group after Gelik had already started reciting so only got the end of it.

Yeah, I've been keeping notes on who exactly got those bonuses. Pezock didn't get any of them.

Grand Lodge

Navior wrote:

That's a good point. The two bonuses should stack, which means he would pass the save. Your second point is also true too, though. He should have gotten a save against the protection from evil itself, and that should have been the first save. However, since the roll I made was intended for the save against the dominate person (and because I goofed up), I'll roll the save against protection from evil now.

Pezock Will: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (1) + 2 = 3
Well, that's a definite fail! Pezock is free of the dominate person!

Booyah!


Male Half-Orc Barbarian(Totem Warrior/Invulnerable Rager) : 2 Druid(Wolf Shaman) : 4

I can't remember, is it the same day as the fight with the apes? I know Makoa ran out of rage rounds at some point during that fight or the giant gnome fight.


No, it's not the same day as the fight with the apes, so you have your rage rounds back.


Whoo! Go, Makoa! Bite that devil-woman!

Douena moved out of the way so he could 5-foot-step and full attack so she feels she shares in the victory. :)

Shadow Lodge

Gotta love max damage, raging, power crits!


Aww yis! That's what I'm talkinabout! Makes me feel okay about Mahjik hitting thin air there.

Shadow Lodge

Go Go Gadget Criticals!


Male Half-Orc Barbarian(Totem Warrior/Invulnerable Rager) : 2 Druid(Wolf Shaman) : 4

Yay for a new ax! Now to try identifying potions with Perception!


Mahjik the Flink wrote:
OOee we rolling in it now! ;)

In consumables and one of the nicheyest wondrous items known to man, anyway. :P If you've got Spell Resistance, it's great because it takes out the most common SR-doesn't-apply spell that might be used against you. Zakiyya should have been wearing it. Brooch of shielding is practically an NPC-only item. I don't believe that I've ever had a magic missile cast at me as a PC going back to 2e.

Apparently, my RL group was weird because we never ever used consumables, except for cure potions. If it could be used up, it just wasn't worth paying for. We'd flip through the back of the DMG when we were shopping, and if it had charges, we just kept flipping. That was a chump's game. Why rent phenomenal cosmic power when you can own?

It carried over to playing Baldur's Gate, when I ended up the game with all my slots full of potions that I always felt I should save for when I "really needed them" and then never used.

EDIT: Also, no one ever ran a wizard (or an arcane caster at all, for that matter) so we were obviously outliers.


Yeah, a brooch of shielding is a pretty niche item, although I have seen it come in useful for players on occasion, albeit rather rarely. I will admit, though, that I don't think I've ever seen one drained of all its charges. :)

As for Zakiyya not wearing it, that's because she wasn't aware what it was. These are items obtained from other travellers and Zakiyya didn't have any means of identifying magic items. That said, spell resistance does apply to magic missile. :)

Grand Lodge

Loot List:
14 pp
172 gp
30 sp
masterwork handaxe makoa
potion of cure moderate wounds
potion of resist energy (electricity)
potion of fly douena?
potion of bear's endurance
scroll of enervation (arcane) urza
scroll of non-detection (arcane) urza
scroll of obscuring mist (divine) douena?
wand 1
wand of hold person (30 charges) douena?
ring
brooch of shielding (90 points remaining)

Remaining from previous adventures
Potion of Cure Light Wounds x10
Potion of Restoration, Lesser x3
Potion of Water Breathing


Navior wrote:
That said, spell resistance does apply to magic missile. :)

:P Told you no one ever played an arcane caster. Wasn't there one of the classic spells that bypassed Magic Resistance back in 2e? Seemed like there was something that was the go-to option for the party mage against drow and the like in Baldur's Gate and the other Bioware games.


Acid arrow?

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