Yea, 14 Con is kinda stretching it in my opinion. And that is with a manual +2 (so far). My plan is to get a couple of magic items with Con modifiers to bring her up into the low 20's. That alone will give me 75-100+ additional hp. I tend to be fairly conservative with my budgets (I'm an accountant IRL), so I think that I'll have enough gp left over to bump up my Con another 2-3 points, via the manual.
I've posted my character page link to this avatar. I've gotten the race, class, and feat stuff up, and you have seen at least the first part of my background. For the record, I'm going to write her up so that she is 'elsewhere' when WotR AP starts: she'll still be crusading, however, she won't be anywhere near Kenabres, unless the campaign calls for it. I still need to flesh out her spells, magic items, and gear (plus the requisite calculations), but the basics are up, and I should have the rest fleshed out before Monday.
As always, comments on the character sheet are welcomed.
Initial thoughts off the cuff (keeping in mind the sheet is unfinished)...
14 Constitution is a deal breaker at this level. Your hit points will be meager, as will your Fortitude save (very important).
I honestly see no issue with a constitution of 14 at this level, not every epic or high level character has a high constitution, in fact a character should be built the way yhe player sees them. I believe wizards, and any.other characters including combat classes can get to these levels without massive hit points, they could out smart their challenges, or just be near impossible to hit.
I'll have to look at ISM, any in particular?
Character sheet is looking good, but move the history to the end.
Keep in mind that MT does not give spells known to the wizard, you'll have to buy scrolls at full price to write them into your spell book. And, you will want to carefully consider when you took the extra wizard levels because of this, and should probably note someplace how many free spells, of what wizard levels, you do have.
Full scroll costs, or rules for copying out of spellbooks per magic? I'm fine with either, just wanted to clarify.
You note crafting is available - does that mean I can make use of crafting before the game starts?
I was looking most obviously at eclectic training (and esoteric training, though that is probably pushing it).
Or just get a Blessed Book or three. You'll never have to worry about such copy costs ever again.
Or just get a Blessed Book or three. You'll never have to worry about such copy costs ever again.
You'd still have to pay (at the very least) the cost to access the spells from another wizard (1/2 of standard scribing costs).
Or just get a Blessed Book or three. You'll never have to worry about such copy costs ever again.You'd still have to pay (at the very least) the cost to access the spells from another wizard (1/2 of standard scribing costs).
Not necessarily for this game. We are a part of a giant interplanar organization. I'm sure they'd have the resources available for free copying for their own people.
Areniel is still in progress, but a large percentage is finished. The old link is still good for the current character sheet (I can't relink it here because I'm on my phone, but I'll try to post it again later). And I'll move the background to the end per your instructions to... whomever that was
OK I have a question and to be fair, I am looking for a slightly cheaper workaround, so if someone says no, I won't do it:
What would be considered a fair and reasonable cost to have ~30 wish spells cast on me by someone to grant me a +5 inherent bonus to each of my stats? I know that, pound for pound, using the manuals are the 'cheapest' way, but even there, I'm coughing up ~45% of my budget for 6 books (and that's if I buy all of them at +5). Thoughts, comments?
Most of the cost of the tomes is the material component cost for wish.... You don't save much by getting them cast instead of buying books. Without actually looking anything ip, I think paying for a spell is spell level x caster level x 10g... So it would be 26,530 per +1 instead of 27,500.... The best possible case would be that GM consents to let another PC (or fellow custodian) cast them at cost, that would be 25k per +1...
You have to pay for material cost for spells bought : )
purchase cost + diamond = (9*10*17) + 25000 = 26530
The books cost 27500 per bonus, so the saving 970gp per bonus. Which does add up if you bought all 30 of them !
Edit: Dam ninjas :P
I got my start with RPGs with final fantasy games, particularly 8 and tactics. I then moved on to BG dark alliance and the Kotor games, still some of my faves. I've been part of a slw moving Pbp that has gone on for about 14 months now with periods of little activity and periods of crazy activity.
A 15th level character would exist in Golarion in several ways. I think that the champions of good and adventure is the go to path. But more often than not, it seems that truly powerful individuals are being attacked by whole parties of semi powerful individuals. So the easiest way for a being to exist at that level is to be the leader of a group or a selfish evil being that will stop at nothing to gain power.
My favorite character that I'm playing right now is a half orc fighter/barbarian devout of rovagug named Rova the Strong. He is funny. I also like my general in the kingmaker game I'm in Dante Skyborn.
@DM Fnord: I understand, and that is what I figured it would be. I was just hoping that there was something that I was missing in my research, As it is, I've spent ~320k gp on manuals and tomes, and they are listed on my character sheet, under the 'Behind the Scenes' section. If someone could look it over to make sure that I didn't screw things up on my calculations of the magic items (most of the items are combined together), I would appreciate it. I have time to fix it now, but it'll be a pain if I missed something now and have to go back later to make corrections.
Most of the magic item stuff is done; I just need to cover a couple more body parts and then get the rest of my gear, as well as skills. I have about 46% of my allotted budget left, and it looks like I should come in under it no problem. I'll need to transfer my background over as well, once I get my stats completed, as well as add to it.
I should be ready by Monday with no problems at this point.
Areniel is not finished but is getting fairly close... here is the link for his character sheet again and you should all be able to comment now (i think). he does have a bunch of unique/custom gear but its all just combining multiple published items into one (applying the x1.5 cost modifier for additional abilities) so I think it should all be okay? i guess there's one exception to that- his sword has a function that's tied to a race feature, but we can talk more about that when we're closer to getting started. a lot of the stuff isn't hyperlinked yet, but most things are pretty well annotated... let me know if there are any questions.
@CDL It was specifically stated in the original game setup that wizards/witches/etc would have to pay for any extra spells. (The cost of having "all" spells is well over a hundred thousand gold) In game they may go about acquiring spells from others, as usual.
Fair enough. However, I still don't think he needs to buy a bunch of scrolls. The rules provide a clear alternative.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a ScrollA wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Given the nature of the interplanar, high level Custodians, I don't see why we wouldn't collectively have all the spells written down somewhere. That way agents can copy them into their books for that specified flat fee as opposed to buying a bunch of scrolls to do it.
I have spent some 55k on spells already, using Blessed Books and the cheaper access scheme. I will be watching this closly^^
(Scrolls are ~5 times as expensive, which is still within my budget - but it is going to hurt a bit :P)
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Regarding Bane88 - Should recruitment open up, I can vouch for Dante being a nice fella to have around : )
Areniel is not finished but is getting fairly close... here is the link for his character sheet again and you should all be able to comment now (i think). he does have a bunch of unique/custom gear but its all just combining multiple published items into one (applying the x1.5 cost modifier for additional abilities) so I think it should all be okay? i guess there's one exception to that- his sword has a function that's tied to a race feature, but we can talk more about that when we're closer to getting started. a lot of the stuff isn't hyperlinked yet, but most things are pretty well annotated... let me know if there are any questions.
Initial thoughts Trumphet Archon for 14 hit dice is an absolute steal if you are intending on going with a clerical caster. Full cleric casting at HD, full BAB, 8 skill points a level, an array of immunities and other defenses, +14 natural armor, and +10 Strength, +6 Dex, +14 Con, +6 Int, +10 Wisdom, +6 Charisma. Easily the strongest possible chassis for a cleric (along with perhaps Planetar). Not even dragons (who are also pretty good in terms of trading) are that good, because they at least lose spellcasting access.
Spell perfection does not double the bonus applied by magical lineage (and even if it did I'm not certain how you'd get echoing spell down to +0 to allow for echoing miracles as a 9th level spell), nor does it make any note of becoming more powerful to allow for 10th, 11th, or 12th level spells.
I'm also uncertain as to why you have so many 10th, 11th, and 12th level slots. You should have (at most) 2 10th, 2 11th, and 1 12th (unless the GM has subsequently ruled that bonuses from high ability scores apply - the existing rules make no mention of this even though the table could be logically extended).
Where are you getting Charisma to saves from?
Overall Areniel seems to be an order of magnitude greater in strength (even without charisma to saves, with less powerful miracles, even with far fewer epic spell slots) than most of the submissions I've seen. I can scale up to match with a bit of effort, but I also get the feeling that such a character could give a GM a lot of trouble, and wanted to observe that.
Also curious as to how you are gaining access to Spellbane, an arcane only personal spell.
Edit Also, this isn't an attack on Nate. There are a bunch of options available that he could have used to add even more power, so I don't want to accuse him of anything. Again, I more wanted to observe that this character falls outside of the standard deviation, as it were.
the Star Archon is noticeably more powerful, especially for clerics.
i do agree though that he ended up being a powerhouse (moreso than i expected honestly)- and i did purposefully pass on some options that would optimize him more (as you noticed). i hope that he won't/wouldn't be disruptive at all, and i think that the background I've built should help with that- he's very intentionally trying to maintain a low profile (out of concern that a legit demon lord or devil prince will show up and decimate some unsuspecting world just to destroy him before he gains enough power to challenge them) so he's going to use as little power as possible in every situation. he also is restrained by a strict code and the will of his god (either of which could also serve as a reason to remove him later if his presence does prove difficult to handle).
to answer your questions:
- spell perfection. that's my bad, actually... in my previous epic level campaigns we had houseruled that you could apply a metamagic feat for free as long as it didn't result in a total level higher than you could cast... i totally forgot that the actual feat limits it to 9th. i'll have to change that.
- bonus 10-12th level spells. ditto; we always expanded the chart because the progression was so clear, but there's no explicit statement to do so... GM- thoughts on this?
- Charisma to saves. the Divine Protection feat.
as for being "an order of magnitude" stronger... like i said he came out more powerful than i expected, but he can't time stop and end combats before anyone else gets to act... his survivability is very high, and he can definitely handle himself in a fight, but i suspect that most of the time (even if he wasn't sandbagging) he wouldn't really outshine all the full arcane casters... truthfully, i think a lot of the time he's just going to be defending the casters so they can do your/there thing (engage in melee to keep casters safe, use shield other for those with low Con, toss some cures/heals, etc). i agree that he is quite powerful but i think 'an order of magnitude' is an overstatement; and, again, if he proves disruptive we can withdraw him or turn him into an NPC later?
the Star Archon is noticeably more powerful, especially for clerics.
Yeah, though the Star Archon does have a downside if you do get waxed. Coming back as a shield archon is brutal.
bonus 10-12th level spells. ditto; we always expanded the chart because the progression was so clear, but there's no explicit statement to do so... GM- thoughts on this? i'll wait for a response before editing that
Mhm. I know the feeling. Most of my home games go a step even further and let you use any higher level slots you'd get from spell levels you don't have access to for lower level stuff. One of many little tweaks I have to keep in mind.
Charisma to saves. the Divine Protection feat.
Forgot about this, since every game I've played in as seen it banned.
as for being an order of magnitude stronger... like i said he came out more powerful than i expected, but he can't time stop and end combats before anyone else gets to act... his survivability is very high, and he can definitely handle himself in a fight, but i suspect that most of the time (even if he wasn't sandbagging) he wouldn't really outshine all the full arcane casters... truthfully, i think a lot of the time he's just going to be defending the casters so they can do your/there thing (engage in melee to keep casters safe, use shield other for those with low Con, toss some cures/heals, etc). and, again, if he proves disruptive we can withdraw him or turn him into an NPC later?
Frankly, this is not something I usually see play out in true high / epic level games. The number of defenses many enemies pack against spellcasting (SR, high saves, immunities, ect) tends to leave martial attacks as extremely viable, and combined with full divine casting (miracle anyone?) you can see absolutely brutal results.
Much of the mid level power (9th-15th level) for casters tends to be rooted in debuffs and battlefield control - both of which become less and less meaningful at very high levels as enemies pick up more and more immunities along with greater mobility. Combined with the increased staying power you expect out of high / epic characters and the extreme resource cost in terms of spell use associated with trying to actually kill most things using spells, and you get groups that tend to focus on setting up full attacks (or in your case, mythic vital strikes).
Frankly, this is not something I usually see play out in true high / epic level games. The number of defenses many enemies pack against spellcasting (SR, high saves, immunities, ect) tends to leave martial attacks as extremely viable, and combined with full divine casting (miracle anyone?) you can see absolutely brutal results.
hmm... that's surprising because my experience has been the opposite- with access to more/better tricks (like spell perfection doubling feat/class bonuses for super high DCs/penetration, spellbane or disjunction to tear down defenses, and the resources in feats/spell levels/gear for lots of quickening) epic arcane casters have dominated most of the epic stuff i've seen/played... (and that's before you even get into the insanity of things like creating a pocket dimension full of simulacri that can cast 20+ spells/round through a ring gate and other such nonsense)
ps- i hope this doesn't all come across as defensive... i certainly don't mean it that way! i am open to constructive criticism (and appreciative of a second set of eyes to point out those house rules stuck in my head from the past), and i do recognize that he turned out quite powerful ... i guess what i'm really trying to get across is that i think i can play him in a way that won't be disruptive, won't make the GMs life needlessly difficult, and won't make the other characters/players feel overshadowed (and that he's certainly not 10-times/1-order-of-magnitude stronger than the other PCs)
I shall preface this by noting that I have yet to read the actual sheet, merely glancing over it.
The problem isn't the Archon itself, it is the way CR operates and the fact that it is in now way linear to 'class level'. A CR 2 *something* might be roughly equivalent to a level 2-3 character, but a CR 10+ monster is way stronger, since it must make up for the fact that a character has so many resources in gear and stuff. The monster needs a great strength to be able to pose a threat without magical weapons, it needs lots of natural armour* so that the fighter actually have to roll to hit ect.
* Some monsters might actually wear real armour instead, some have high dex ect ... The point is, the monster is designed to have a certain amount of AC (or any other stat) to be challenging, exactly how doesn't matter. Monsters usually doesn't use the "easiest" way to gain AC. But when one adds class levels and gear, it becomes oh so important.
A AC 30 monster that gains +20 of that AC as natural armour is going to like a Platemail so much more then the AC 30 monster with a +10 armour bonus and a +10 dex bonus in base. But their original CR doesn't care at all...
All in all, this means that the monsters usually end up with higher raw stats. But PCs can usually compensate for this with their versatile and powerful class abilities (the Fighter capstone for example, or a Ninja's Unseen Master). But the Caster Classes usually doesn't have that useful or powerful abilities - except spellcasting ...
Which means that certain monsters get the best of both worlds when "PCified" : )
Personally, I'd say we can wait and see. Gutting a character is newer fun but ...
If it comes to that, that one character is overbearing, it is probably more efficient to impose some OOC limits instead of a mechanical nerfbat. Like if a caster is too strong, have him focus more tightly on one school or type of spells. If a fighter is heads and shoulders above everyone else, he could switch to a less efficient weapon ect.
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Now, it all made sense in my head - but it is also clearly not what the rules actually say. I would love if you could discuss this/give it some thought : )
Note: It doesn't really affect my build too much, I can just switch around the traits a bit so that I get one of the meta-magic reducers on greater dispel magic.
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I did however claim my School Bonus prepared spell slot.
I'm also kindof curious how you feel that the high level slots interact with the Arcanist. At casterlevel 22 I have 10 "points" to distribute - if I place them on another 10th level slot, do I get
A: one additional spell slot to prepare AND the ability to cast said level of spells once more
ie: 10th 2/day (total) - Heightened Magic Missile, Quickened Disintegrate
B: one additional spell slot to prepare OR the ability to cast said level of spells once more.
ie1: 10th 1/day (total) - Heightened Magic Missile, Quickened Disintegrate
ie2: 10th 2/day (total) - Heightened Magic Missile
Right now I took the conservative approach and went with B.
edit: put the sections in spoilers.
edit2: Also, just a random thought, but the *best* monster for a cleric is probably one of those that casts as a sorcerer but treats clerical spells as being on the wizard/sorcerer list. With Mythic, that means they have complete access to both lists with Wild Arcana : )
On that note, "All trumpet archons carry a gleaming magical trumpet or horn ..."
How are you handling this? Or are you going to keep it stuffed in your haversack and not have your trumpet (su) available?
the horn also transforms into a sword at will... that was the thing i wanted to talk to you about.
In addition, "Aura of Menace (Su) A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry."
This will pretty much trash your concealment on a regular basis. I see nothing that says it can be suppressed.
there are a couple of spells with similar effect (i think one of them is literally called archon's aura) so I was planning/hoping to convince most people that's what i was using.
Your channel energy is at 6d6, an 8th level cleric has channeling at 4d6. Neither the archon nor crusader are bumping that up since both only affect the spell casting.
the holy symbol he has was functioning as a phylactery of positive channeling (granting the +2d6), though it looks like that may need to be re-evaluated...
At 25th level you would only have one 12th level slot, assuming you spent your even level spell levels in the maximum slot, you would only have 2 10th and 2 11th level slots. We are not continuing the attribute table.
Peter, Lessah, and I were just speculating on whether or not there would be bonus spells for high stats above 9th... i will remove those right after i finish this post. the domain ability of clerics states "A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up" so that would mean that i do get a domain spell for each of those spell levels (on top of the 1-2 for epic levels), or are you houseruling that away?
Your racial con should be a +14, you have +12 noted.
you said to reduce one racial bonus by 2 (to account for preassigned leveling bonuses), i chose Con for that reduction.
I thought we had noted that crafting combination items needed to maintain their slots. I am seeing shoulder and ring item combinations in the same item. This would effectively allow a character to only have one magic craft feat and have all the gear they want in wondrous items. This is a two-fold impact. Fewer feats, and less gold spent on the items. You have also reduced the price for normally slotless items into slotted items (ioun stones). You may have implanted ioun stones, though they are still treated as slotless.
i don't recall seeing that restriction... i may have missed it (or maybe it was from your previous thread?) i can rework his gear... a thought though- what if the restriction was just that you had to have the appropriate feat to create the original and that would allow you to 'move' the enchant? i ask because mechanically it would work out identically but then you'd have items that make more sense... i can take forge ring and end up with all the exact same bonuses from gear but if i move everything to its original slot instead of having cool, thematic, appropriately named gear each piece will be a bizarre hodgepodge of random things i liked in that slot...
You have two disguise kits consumed with a note that doing this allows you to take 20 on the disguise roll. A disguise kit is basically makeup, each kit has enough for 10 uses and gives a +2 circumstance bonus for a single use. A use is not defined, though I would expect that a use would last for an encounter, until a battle, part of a day, etc.
the restriction on taking 20 is that you have to be able to fail 19 times... the 2 expended kits were to facilitate that so i could have one disguise at my best ability... because the disguise kit gives no duration, in my past experience each disguise has always lasted until removed (combined with the quick change function, that could last indefinitely) so it seemed a worthwhile investment. if you're adjudicating that differently i'll keep them unspent to use as needed (though it seems like a decent disguise should at least last for a day)
Why is your quickened spell only increasing by 3 ranks?...
that should only be the case when applied to miracle and its because of the Magical Lineage trait.
I'll look into divine protection...
fair enough, let me know what you decide and I'll replace it if need be
I have a crafting question, that likely requires a DM call: I've created an item that I call the 'Bladed Security Belt of Flowing Water Perfection' which combines the belts of physical perfection (+6), the bladed belt, the security belt, and the sash of flowing water. For the bladed belt specifically, it states that the belt takes on the masterwork properties of a slashing or piercing weapon (I chose the rapier). If it is connected to the rest of the magic item properly, can I consider the bladed belt to be the equivalent of a +3 rapier, plus shock, due to my class/mystery ability?
If the answer is no, that's fine. I don't see Tessara having to go toe to toe with anything, unless she has no choice.
The problem isn't the Archon itself, it is the way CR operates and the fact that it is in now way linear to 'class level'. A CR 2 *something* might be roughly equivalent to a level 2-3 character, but a CR 10+ monster is way stronger, since it must make up for the fact that a character has so many resources in gear and stuff. The monster needs a great strength to be able to pose a threat without magical weapons, it needs lots of natural armour* so that the fighter actually have to roll to hit ect.
You actually hit the nail right on the head. Lower CR monsters tend to scale better in terms of balance than higher CR monsters, precisely because higher CR monsters need all kind of extra built in abilities in order keep up with PCS.
There are a few exceptions at lower levels that also break the curve a little bit - nymphs for instance - but for the most part monsters with a high CR but low hit dice are overpowering when turned into PCs at a flat rate because of the extra abilities (high ability scores, natural armor, ect). Were I making the call I'd probably call the Trumpet Archon HD plus 3 points of LA (as with the half celestial at this level), but that's just my take on it.
hmm... that's surprising because my experience has been the opposite- with access to more/better tricks (like spell perfection doubling feat/class bonuses for super high DCs/penetration, spellbane or disjunction to tear down defenses, and the resources in feats/spell levels/gear for lots of quickening) epic arcane casters have dominated most of the epic stuff i've seen/played...
Honestly, Spellbane is one of those spells that probably shouldn't exist. Laying it aside though, most of the super tricks at high levels function less well at epic levels, because high CR monsters pick up immunity to more and more tricks. Flesh to stone for instance is amazing at middling levels, but many epic monsters are immune. Similarly staggering, stunning, and other methods are frequently dismantled by things like the behemoth subtype, the unstoppable monster ability, or mythic powers that function similarly.
A lot of inexperienced Gms make rookie mistakes in high level games, jumping in without any knowledge of how to account for powers available. They, for instance, fail to spend monster treasure to beef up their weaknesses (especially with intelligent enemies), or play genius intellect enemies as fodder, or throw single enemies at large parties without giving them other things to account for (the Tarrasque is a good example here, where implied in its CR is the danger it poses to region, innocents, and so forth).
(and that's before you even get into the insanity of things like creating a pocket dimension full of simulacri that can cast 20+ spells/round through a ring gate and other such nonsense)
Nonsense is pretty much the right word here. Anyone who tries this kind of stuff at a table tends to get laughed out of the room. That kind of metagame'd stuff never goes over well.
I thought we had noted that crafting combination items needed to maintain their slots. I am seeing shoulder and ring item combinations in the same item. This would effectively allow a character to only have one magic craft feat and have all the gear they want in wondrous items. This is a two-fold impact. Fewer feats, and less gold spent on the items. You have also reduced the price for normally slotless items into slotted items (ioun stones). You may have implanted ioun stones, though they are still treated as slotless.
In fairness, he's not using crafting to achieve this, and is paying full price as far as I can tell.
Why is your quickened spell only increasing by 3 ranks?
Magical Lineage reduces it for miracle by 1.
I'll look into divine protection, since like the advanced template, it's one of those things where at this level you would have to work hard at it to not be able to qualify for the feat. It's a pretty significant boost to resistances.
Divine protection is really good, mostly because it gives access to something that otherwise takes a lot of investment. As it stands without divine protection there are 5 classes that have access to an ability score to saves - two with codes of conduct and three requiring an investment of 20 levels.
I'm not saying that it applies to everyone
@Spellbane - It is very good, I agree. It helped me tip the scales towards an Abjurer and invest a bit. As it stands, my Disjunction got a 43.75% chance of eating its lunch even if it is one of the protected spells - and as I improve my CL that chance will only go up.
it seems like some of these concerns (like race) should have been voiced much earlier... i have no problem making some necessary changes (like fixing the number of spell levels, or making sure i'm using spell perfection correctly), but i don't have enough time to do a total rebuild...
if people don't think i can play Areniel in a way that isn't disruptive (and/or are unwilling to try it and see how it goes) i may just have to bow out :(
it seems like some of these concerns (like race) should have been voiced much earlier... i have no problem making some necessary changes (like fixing the number of spell levels, or making sure i'm using spell perfection correctly), but i don't have enough time to do a total rebuild...
if people don't think i can play Areniel in a way that isn't disruptive (and/or are unwilling to try it and see how it goes) i may just have to bow out :(
Well, let me note that when I say order of magnitude, I'm looking at very specific things with regard to Areniel. In particular, it stands out that he has atypically high martial power at the level, combined with the ability to jack that power up higher with a suit of buffs that are going to be exceptionally difficult to remove (if you have access to spellbane especially). He's also got access to full spectrum spellcasting, a large number of get out of jail free cards (e.g. miracle), and defenses that are across the board between 10-15 points higher then most of the PCs (saves, AC as fundamentals, also higher hit points), and tremendous mobility not only in combat with a high base fly speed, but also on a world wide level with at will greater teleport. There's also extremely high growth potential, without the use of wishes or tomes to increase ability scores in the past (which reduces your power now, I understand).
In part I apologize here. I had a thought that a Trumpet Archon was probably a little bit over the top if taken as CR / HD = level, but got sidetracked and never came back to it until your sheet went up. That said, there are a bunch of small tweaks that could be made if needed mechanically to mitigate Areniel's strength without necessarily requiring a complete rebuild or removal of the character.
A bit of LA tacked on in favor if a couple epic levels would require the removal of marginal bits of mechanics, would moderate reduce his strength, and might allow the character to fit in a bit better. Alternatively, we experimented in another game with reducing a monstrous character's wealth significantly at higher levels to offset their greatly enhanced innate abilities (I believe we defaulted to 1/3rd standard wealth in a 16th level game for an atypical role for the given monster). Finally, Areniel could be run without mythic, or as possessing mythic rank (as per a monster) but not mythic tiers.
Any of those changes might make a noticeable and appropriate impact - though obviously I'm not the one to make that call.
Finally, it could simply be allowed to ride, trusting that your intention is not to overwhelm or overshadow anyone else. My concern though (were I a GM) is not necessarily that Areniel would intentionally be played in that way, but more that innate aspects of the character would render it somewhat problematic to work around. For instance, the character has significantly greater staying power in an extended adventure than the average caster or martial. They've got unmatched mobility on a worldwide sense with that at will teleport at this level. They've got not only these abilities, but also the ability to weather almost any attack you could throw at other proposed characters because of their enhanced durability along with the ability to rapidly undo debilitating conditions with things like miracle on hand.
Anyway.
Again, concerns that perhaps could have been shared before I had 20 or 30 hours into the character...
But ultimately it's up to the actual GM (and previous players) whether they trust me to be a role playing asset or think I'll be disruptive, so I guess I'll just wait for them to decide.
Truthfully, I thought trying to pretend I wasn't an archon was an extra restraint... If you disagree I can drop that. Would you prefer I not pretend to be someone's cohort too, or just that I pretend to be a 'regular' archon while so doing? Or that I drop the ruse entirely?
Regarding the magic items- I can do it the way you have, I just need to pick up forge ring and it will actually end up costing me a little bit less than the way I have it done currently (I'll be using more slots, so less 'x1.5's and some of the expensive enchants will get separated so they'll drop to x1s instead of the extra 50%).
I haven't looked at all the new characters, and I might be remembering inaccurately, but I think my numbers are pretty comparable to Katja's... (And I won't have any clones or any of those kind of tricks that give harder to measure survivability to arcane casters with souls)
Boing!
I'm going to interject with something on a completely different topic. It would seem as if I greatly underestimated the time it would take for me to piece together my background.
Making sure that I get things correct and don't screw up the current state-of-the-world adds a good deal of time to the process (looking up dates, times and places on the wiki -> tracking down their sources to read more + getting sidetracked and reading other cool things about Golarion). This is most pronounced at the knots where Tengil is actually connected to existing NPCs - the White Plague by itself (a two year period) has eaten 1-2 pages already and it is note done.
It looks unlikely that I will manage to go trough three crusades & the Chelish civil war too until monday (as I'm also going to visit my folks I can't binge it either).
I was thinking of jumping to the present and the previous ~10 years, leaving a lot in the middle still in its unrefined, raw form. This would let me establish whom he is now - and thus build a playable character. It would also leave me time to fix all but the fiddliest bits of the character sheet until monday.
Thoughts ?
(I would, of course, work to fill in the middle asap : ) )
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Another another topic: How have you done with health?
Roll, average (1d6->3.5), rounded average per level (1d6->4), half of dice (1d6->3), max ect
I haven't looked at all the new characters, and I might be remembering inaccurately, but I think my numbers are pretty comparable to Katja's... (And I won't have any clones or any of those kind of tricks that give harder to measure survivability to arcane casters with souls)
To be fair, some of your stats is a bit higher :P
For example, your saves
Fort 15 points over
Ref 9 points over
Will 24 points over Silverscale (more then double)
Which means that any save with is 50-50 for you is roll 20 or else for the Dragon...
(Do note, the Dragon could be so much stronger (worse ?^^) with the simple addition of some things, like a Amulet of Natural Armour or the Divine Protection feat)
I just looked over Katja's sheet, and a handful of Areniel's numbers are noticeably higher than hers, currently, though as Lessah pointed out she's got no items helpin with any of that, so she could very quickly/easily boost those quite a bit...
Like I said, if you guys don't think its workable I'll bow out, I just wish we could have figured that out days ago (when I posted his AC and saves and whatnot) or even a week or so ago when said what I was planning on building, before I put so many hours into building this character and working on his background.
If you decide you're willing to give him a chance let me know and I'll make the changes we've talked about (and others as needed), but until then I'm not gonna out any more energy into him.
She could boost them easily/quickly indeed. But she has not - which I would guess is not due to the lack of knowledge about the option : )
I have no problems with your archon character.
Highly visible? Hat of Greater Disguise and an Iron Circlet.
Aura of Menace?
Aura of Menace (Su) A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon's aura for 24 hours.
In a battle, it doesn't matter that it's active; we're probably going to be slaying whatever decided to fight us. Also, you decide when your character gets angry.
Tight leash from a deity?
"I served one long ago. He was unfortunately killed by Rovagug, and he left no successors. I've made more of an impact for the cause of Good serving his memory and ideals than I would elsewhere."
Again, concerns that perhaps could have been shared before I had 20 or 30 hours into the character...
But ultimately it's up to the actual GM (and previous players) whether they trust me to be a role playing asset or think I'll be disruptive, so I guess I'll just wait for them to decide.
I just looked over Katja's sheet, and a handful of Areniel's numbers are noticeably higher than hers, currently, though as Lessah pointed out she's got no items helpin with any of that, so she could very quickly/easily boost those quite a bit...
Actually, I do have items that are enhancing her attributes. A belt of physical perfection +6 for example.
Like I said, if you guys don't think its workable I'll bow out, I just wish we could have figured that out days ago (when I posted his AC and saves and whatnot) or even a week or so ago when said what I was planning on building, before I put so many hours into building this character and working on his background.
If you decide you're willing to give him a chance let me know and I'll make the changes we've talked about (and others as needed), but until then I'm not gonna out any more energy into him.
I have been following along with the process, and until now I have been content with the answers given. Now I'm going to quote something for you since you are starting to come across as somewhat snarky.
Anyone who wishes to make a character needs to keep calm during this process. It will be long and drawn out. If you find yourself getting upset, just take a break. This is a forum which facilitates being able to think things through a lot more than a tabletop game. It is advantageous to work on this when in a refreshed state so as to have the mindset needed to understand everything that is being done.
You knew going in what kind of game this is. We alerted you to what is involved and you are starting to balk at it. Please consider that we are all just people. I have refrained from posting much as I have been exhausted lately which doesn't lend itself to well-thought out posts.
I ask you now to please reign it in. We are all in this together, please work with us on this. If changes are needed to your character, make them. You have a blank canvas to work with in making the character you always wanted. Have fun! We are not here to keep you down, but to create a place for an atmosphere of fun.
Just some things I felt you should know.
I am working on everything it is taking longer then I thought.
I apologize if I came across as snarky. it's hard not to get a little frustrated when I've put in so much time/work (and requests for feedback) only to be told when the characters is nearly done that I may need to scrap it and start over... I don't mind the hours of work- I did expect that, it's the prospect o having to do it twice that I'm having trouble with...
Point on the requirement; I missed that.
However, worshipping has many definitions. It doesn't always mean being on a deity's leash. It can mean just praying some higher power. There are some divine entities that grant power to others without ever asking for anything in exchange (e.g. most of the Lovecraft entities; notice that even Oracles can benefit from the feat, and they have no power loss mechanism).
OK, so just to give you all a status check, I have just about everything down on my character sheet, and I am 'tweaking' my backstory that I gave earlier; at this point it's mostly in fixing grammatical issues, but also to work in the first symptoms of my curse.
Here's what I have left to do on Tessara:
- Mythic 'stuff' (i.e. picking a feat, picking a path ability, etc.)
- Finishing the gear buildout: I have just a little under 500k gp left in the budget, and I'm going through the 'slotless' stuff now to determine what else I need. I left a technical question out there for Fnord about 8 hours back from this post, in case it was missed.
- Bringing the backstory up to the present. I'm about a century behind on the story so I need to at the very least generalize it.
- Cohort: Should I still wrap Nate into my story, or was that decided elsewhere? I've been keeping up on the various crafting and class sub-threads, but I might have missed what was decided on for Nate to play, if not as an archon, at least 'disguised' as my cohort. Otherwise, I'll need to build out a cohort as well.
As always, feedback is well appreciated. I'm rootin' for ya. Remember, we're all in this together. (- Red Green, ca. 1998)
Losing a few epic slots... Losing the divine protection...Fixing your crafting feats and equipment, should not break a build.
All together, these are really minor in consideration of the overall idea.
I agree, most of those changes have been made already, or can be pretty quickly... They're also not going to change much of what others are complaining about- my saves will drop by 8 but still be fairly high (and at least one other player will have theirs drop as well), and my AC, HP, and melee ability will be unchanged. Like I said, I have no objections at all to those minor changes but there are some who seem to be advocating that I switch races or completely rebuild to suit a significant level adjustment- that's the kind of stuff I just don't have enough time for.
The crusader PrC requires one "Must worship a good god." Worshiping a god that was killed wouldn't seem to fit.
That's actually just the pfsrd version- the original requires worshiping Iomedae (pfsrd can't use her name for copyright reasons)
I was planning on taking the second approach most I the time, yeah (obviously not like when he confronted Zuhra). I'm not opposed to taking the other approach- partly I like the idea of a powerful being pretending to be normal to aid the battle against evil without disrupting the status quo and partly (like I said) I thought that would put kind of a check on his power (since he'd be pretending to be weaker most of the time). But if you'd prefer a winged knight in shining armor vanquishing evil from a pillar of light I could do that too (my ooc concern there was that then in some situations he might overshadow some people).
@Lord Manticore
That is an interesting mix of items. The physical perfection is basic. The sash of flowing water and security belt would work well with it as well. The potential issue with the bladed belt ability is what happens if it leaves your possession while a rapier? per physical perfection, you would lose those benefits for 24 hours. Would any of the benefits function if the belt was no longer worn, but wielded? The security pockets would not be accessible while wielded, that's a given.
I did consider that, as far as loss of abilities (temporarily) and thought that it might be an additional restriction to Tessara. That being said, I think I'm going to remove the bladed belt portion and just make a rapier.
I'm not seeing what class/mystery ability is providing a weapon enchantment. You could pay the weapon cost (full price since you don't have craft magic weapon) to have an enchanted rapier. Personally you'd probably be better off just having a rapier separately.
See above for the rapier. As for the revelation, it is 'Touch of Electricity.' At 11th level, any weapon that Tessara carries is considered a shock weapon.
Where is the extended range darkvision and blindsense coming from?
It is coming from the Eyes of the Dragon item.
Your stat baseline looks like a 30 pt build, it should be 25.
It is likely to be a LONG time before we level up (needing a ridiculous abount of experience, hence the mythic progression), as such you may want to reconsider your charisma tome. The odd value isn't going to be a benefit anytime soon.
I see what I did wrong and I took the Cha stat down a point. That also eliminates the 'odd' factor.
Lessah here - I'd thought I'd present my alias a bit.
Most of the "crunch" is there (still missing a feat - the last slot is always hard to fill. So many options. Maybe Divine Protection too :P?), but some more hotlinks and descriptions could certainly be useful - especially for the items : )
Skills are in the google docs link. I normally prefer to have everything in one place, but it was so much easier to keep track of those values in a spreadsheet !
You are more then welcome to take a look!
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@DM Fnord/*Old* players - I had some questions a bit earlier regarding Arcanist Epic spells and how HP is generated but I think they where sorta drowned in more pressing issues. Would you mind taking a look ?
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ps - The search for an fitting avatar isn't quite over yet. Hard to find a masked eyeless person that *doesn't* look like he wants to eat your soul ! But perhaps that is part of the charm...^^
The extra cantrip was obviously faulty and has been removed !
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Hmm not exactly, sadly. I'll try and be more clear:
Memorization slots per day and number of spells per day of a given level is not tied together for an Arcanist.
If I were to assign all my spell slots gained at level 22 to my tenth level spells - would I gain both a memorization slot and a spell per day, or just one of them ?
Would it be possible to get an interpretation of how the Mythic Craft Wondrous Item works? Does it make combining magic items cheaper or more expensive than before?