I am *BEYOND* stupid. I completely forgot that my archetype gives alter self at min/lvl. So Caldariel has 6 minutes per day of +2 strength and 30ft swim speed. My god...such a dumb mistake to make.
At least I finally caught it...right?
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Well at least you didn't die because you forgot it. I've seen that happen with someone forgetting a class ability that could have saved a few people.
I give up. I can't do anything, I never make any rolls, and I just get destroyed when I try.
Good luck everyone.
You have 15HP left, two enemies around you, and a bunch of attacks to make. So don't give up!
And if you are feeling unhappy with your character's mechanics, I (and I'm sure the others) would be happy to give you some advice.
No, I am not having fun.
I can't roll for s@!&, I am 10,000 gp behind the wealth-by-level curve so all of my gear is under par, and I specifically called out that if we are losing on mobility to these guys we will swim into an ambush and that is exactly what happened.
I don't want to play any more. Just have the skum kill T'chazzar.
The slow spell definitely has the opportunity to turn the imbalance. If they can only move at 1/2 speed and just take an move action or attack, we actually all have the maneuverability advantage at that point.
We also have reinforcements a round away at most.
Out of curiosity T'chazzar, how did you end up 10K gold behind the curve?
Who knows? I guess it's closer to 6,000 under the line.
We're likely a bit behind in terms of Wealth by Level, between having 5 PCs for most of the campaign (when technically the baseline's 4) plus the player turnover has likely cost us a bit as well when departing PCs took their stuff with them. Also, the 2nd adventure in this AP is notorious for being stingy with the loot until the PCs hit the Lucky Bones...which you're doing now.
If I'm not mistaken, it seems to me that the agreed-upon loot system was to give gear to whoever could make use of it (keeping an eye on things to make sure one or two PCs weren't getting the lion's share) AND then equally dividing up the gold from sold loot amongst ALL PCs. Maybe I'm wrong about this....
But if I AM right, everyone should've gotten almost 4,800 gp in THIS POST alone. And since T'chazzar got his magic chain shirt and ring of protection in that same distribution, and one of his magical mithral shortswords from party treasure since then, he should've been easily able to afford his other magic short sword and the rest of his equipment just from that distribution and have a decent amount of gold left over. This would also seem to imply that he received nothing from all the other treasure divvies going back to the start of the game, which isn't (or shouldn't be) true.
I'm thinking there's an accounting error somewhere. Or a distribution or three were missed. Or maybe the gear T'chazzar claimed recently DID come out of his share...but that doesn't explain why he had next-to-nothing in treasure for years.
Maybe we should do some sort of accounting check at the end of this adventure, assuming we all want to go on.
@T'chazzar: Are you still with us or out for good?
Lvl 5: 10.5k WBL
Lvl 6: 16k WBL
T'chazzar has: 2x mithral shortswords (6k), +1 chain shirt (1k), +1 ring of protection (2k) and some cash. So he is at about 9.5k.
Caldariel has: Belt (4k), liquid glass handwraps (800), +1 armor (about 1.5k), ring of protection (2k), +1 buckler (1k) and cash (1k). Quick math puts Caldariel at about 10k...more with healing gear. But I really think that is best considered for the party. <shrugs>
Arani has: +1 shadow studded leather (2kish top of my head), +1 Composite Longbow (2.5kish) and lots of arrows (god if I know...maybe 1k?) and 1k on hand. So she has roughly 6k right now.
Faline has...the least. A whip, a cloak and some wands.
If anything, Caldariel has the most loot. Especially if his healing gear is counted.
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Anyways. Just eyeballing things, I see everyone as being behind WBL. Which makes sense to me. This is a rebellion against a powerful dictatorship. The group scrapes by whatever it can get while trying to avoid detection.
It makes things harder, yes. But it's also thematic.
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I think that some of the frustration, to be honest, is the build. T'chazzar has Str13 Dex17. He uses Dex to hit, yes, but he uses Str for damage. This leaves you at 1d6+2 damage (+1 str, +1 enchantment). That is very low for Lvl 6. Most of his damage comes from smite evil, but that is a very limited resource. +3 hit (cha) and +6 damage (lvl). So when smiting, you go from +11/+6 (1d8+2/19-20/x2; piercing) to +14/+9 (1d8+8/19-20/x2; piercing).
To put this in perspective...a lvl 1 Monk with a masterwork temple sword and power attack. Str18. +5/+5 (1d8+6/19-20/x2). Even with smite evil, T'chazzar's damage is just too low.
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Now, my unwarranted advice? If you want to dual wield, what you need are ways to push the damage up without using your smite evil. I would advise respeccing from Gray Paladin (6) into:
(2) [url=https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/virtuous-bravo-paladin-archetype/]Virtuious Bravo Paladin (2) [url=https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo-slayer-archetypes/deliverer/]Deliverer Slayer (4).
(3) Paladin (3) Sanctified Unchained Rogue (3). This is just to get Dex to Damage with both weapons while dual wielding. The archetype does nothing until lvl 4, which you don't really need to take. But the flavor is there.
With the first option you dump dual wielding. Trade the second sword for a buckler. This nets you...
* Free weapon finesse, freeing up a feat. This will let you get slashing grace, for dex to damage.
* +1 AC at lvl 6 for wearing light armor, increases to +2 at lvl 7
* Lvl to damage!
With weapon focus, weapon finesse, slashing grace, and a +1 shortsword...
To hit: +6 (BaB) + 3 (Dex) + 1 (WF) + 1 (Enchantment) = +11/+6
Damage: 1d6 (base) + 3 (Dex) +1 (Enchantment) + 6 (precision) = 1d6+10. Throw in power attack, and you go up to 1d6+14.
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With the second option, you get to be much better at dual wielding. You get access to ranger combat styles (great free feats that ignore prerequisites), sneak attack (an extra 1d6 really helps) and deliverer abilities (lvl 10 is when it really pays off. A straight +2d6 damage against nearly all enemies is wonderful).
I personally use Paladin (2) Deliverer Slayer (rest) when playing wrath of the righteous. The damage is very solid with Shield Master and I love having great AC.
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With the third option, your build will remain pretty similar. But you get +2d6 sneak attack (that is a *HUGE* damage spike, and you get dex to damage with both weapons while dual wielding! And you only lose 1 point of BaB! You can even use your lvl 2 rogue talent for an extra feat. So this nets you free weapon finesse, free weapon focus, and all of the extra damage on top of it. It's really hard to beat this from a pure numbers point of view, as this is grabbing you an extra 2 feats.
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Basically what I'm getting at, is that T'chazzar is not going to have any real damage spikes from what I can see. Even if he was at WBL he would probably remain frustrating. Dual Wielding in pathfinder is really hard to pull off. I've only seen a few builds that due to very well, and sadly paladins are just not that good at it. But with some changes to the build, he can become very effective, even with low WBL
You got the base damage wrong; Tempered Champion causes his weapon damage to increase based on level like a warpriest, so currently his shortswords do 1d8. (Looks like you missed this in the initial damage writeup but included it in the smite calculations.) Damage only matters if you can hit, though, and aside from a few surprises, it feels like my attack rolls have been miserable.
Anyway, I just feel like this is a slog where we know that the enemy has us outmaneuvered on mobility and we are just... going at it anyway, and setting ourselves up for failure. I feel like I have no contributions to make and this is taking forever.
I built a character around a specific theme knowing that it was going to make some challenges, but it feels like the dice and the terrain have conspired to suck all the fun out of the game.
Well, sorry to see you go. I hope that in your future games the dice are kinder to you and that you have the tools for dealing with unfavorable terrain.
Thank you. I'm sorry to disappoint the group, and I am grateful that the GM gave me the opportunity to play an unusual character. Right now, this character is just giving me more frustration than enjoyment.
I've allowed folks to switch out characters mid-campaign before; we could do that again if you'd like.
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Some builds just don't work except for very specialized situations. And a revolution regularly has new people joining.
This was always a concept character. As a gray paladin of Kelinahet, he could engage in various subterfuge and spy-type activities while remaining (mostly) a paladin. The tempered champion levels traded the paladin's limited spellcasting for the ability to improve the base damage of his paired small weapons. Ultimately it was a particular character style that I was trying to play.
The problem is, any of the issues that I'm experiencing will affect any martial character. If you can't roll over a 7 on your attack rolls, it doesn't matter how good your damage output is supposed to be. If you can't reach your opponents because they can just swim away, and you can't use ranged attacks because you're underwater, then you can't even try to hit them.
To mitigate this I'd have to go back to doing what I usually do in PF to avoid the problem of crap dice luck: Play a caster that relies on powers that do not require attack rolls.
I mean I get it. I'm a ranged character. Even after spending money to be able to shoot under-water, I'm going from a 3 shots per round to 1 shot per round rate of fire with lower chance of hitting.
A bit frustrating but also part of the challenge. and it's a team effort. Thanks to a single spell we've already negated the speed advantage for more than half of the enemy, in fact they're at a disadvantage now (having to move at 1/2 speed, or attack, not both)
It sucks when the concept you have in your head doesn't come to fruition, but there are ways to at least partially mitigate bad rolls (barbarians/bloodragers adding flat bonuses to all attack/damage, ranger or hunter favored bonuses, fighter specialization/focus etc)
Your last full attack was a 12/4/8 to hit
The one before that was a 16 (save) 2 (hit)
Before that 2/10/8
The one before that was a critical hit.
Before that was a 20/1/17 without confirm
Your dice rolls seem fine to me.
The issue is that you have a dual wielding character who has no dual wield features. You have a weak Paladin archetype. You have the option to rebuild. And yet you keep complaining about dice rolls being too low.
I say: Accept that difficulty happens by terrain just as much by AC. Sometimes it stops us in our tracks. Last encounter Caldariel was screwed over. It happens! Accept that dice rolls can be low. Be it wizards missing scorching ray, or enemies making all their saves. Or someone enchantment focused fighting undead.
I’m just…sorry. But I can’t feel bad about bad dice rolls. Or unfavorable terrain. If you want to fix build issues then do so. If you want a new character then do so. But I just really don’t see anything worth feeling sorry over
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Having been witness to his rolls for A LOT longer, I can attest to a disproportionately high number of rolls below 10 that honestly defy the odds by a lot. It's even consistent through multiple characters in multiple games over the years. Weird but true.
I came in later to this campaign, so I haven’t seen that. That being the case…try sacrificing a dice, or making a dice jail. Back in my warhammer days it was always wise to appease the dice gods.
There was the time my half-orc fighter/rogue got turned to stone, turned back to flesh, died from failing the Fort save for the transformation back, was resurrected, and then immediately turned to stone again
Or when my cleric in a Kingmaker game failed five Fort saves in a row against wyvern poison and died due to Con loss
Or the other cleric I played in the War for the Crown AP here who rolled so badly that I was iced out of the whole influence mini-game/subsystem completely b/c it has no catch-up mechanic and if you fall behind you just become unable to participate in it
Or when I was playing the 1st edition AD&D module The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh as a paladin and during the entire module I never scored a hit (this was in, oh, '89 or so)
Heck just last Tuesday (May 9th) I was playing in a 2nd edition AD&D game as a psionicist, when a fight broke out I opened with Cause Sleep, rolled a natural 20 (this is bad in 2nd edition psionics) and knocked myself out for the entire encounter, so I basically didn't get to play that session
... anyway, this is why when I have the opportunity, I tend to play spellcasters who don't need to rely on dice rolls.
As a heads up…will be slowly writing this to all groups. I will be taking a much needed vacation (burn out is real…)starting 6/6, will be traveling for a month in China. Will have internet connection but this will obviously impact posting. I know that I’ve been slow for abit but I’ll try to pick up the pace
@Grumbaki: China...niiiiice! Enjoy your trip.
I figured I'd check in to address the state of the game, since T'chazzar's player has quit.
My initial thought was to end the game after this encounter. With the computer problems and slow posting rate of Falina's player, it seems like we're down to two dedicated players (and one living PC, with the Arani debacle). If Falina's player can commit to a post every couple of days or so, however, we'd be at three strong and could recruit a couple new players from folks we already know on these boards. Jessibel would revert to NPC mode and likely join the Solstines in a new rebellion team.
Thoughts?
I'd hate to see the campaign die. It's well run, and it's the kind of campaign that really requires that kind of quality GM attention. While I am making an international trip soon, I'd personally want to keep going.
But if we do stop, or even pause, please keep me in mind should you wish to restart at some point.
I would be in, whether through resurrection or creating another character, this is an exceptionally well run and enjoyable campaign.
While I may not be having a good time, this game is certainly worth fighitng for if the rest of y'all are enjoying it. Get a fresh player if you need one. There aren't as many PF1 players on the boards as there used to be, but there's almost always someone willing to step in.
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Looks like I picked the right time to bow out, since drow are being decanonized from PF!
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Gotta keep the Pinkertons at bay
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I was hoping to finish up the skum fight before Grumbaki headed off to China, but that didn't happen. I think I'll put the game on hiatus until after the Independence Day holiday (7/4) and look into adding a couple of players during that downtime.
@FALINA: Can you commit to posting at a faster rate (say, every other day or so)?
I can try, I won't be able to 6/21-25 and 8/3-6 during Origins and Gencon. I am sorry I've slowed down so bad and am working on improving that.
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Origins won't be a problem, as we'll still be on break then. I'll try to recruit a couple of people, maybe from the other game I run on these forums.
If any of you know a player who might be interested and a good fit, have them shoot me a PM.
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Hello everyone! It looks like I might be joined the campaign. I've been messaging with GM Silversong about possible characters, and they suggested I put some of my questions to you.
The first thing I'm wondering is what you think would help out in terms of party needs the most? I'm looking mostly (though not exclusively) at an Oracle, probably with the Lore Mystery and Cyclopean Seer archetype, or a Bard, either Vanilla or with the Studious Scholar archetype.
The Oracle would cover divine casting, which looks minimal in the party, along with good coverage of knowledge skill checks.
The Bard, is only a 6th level caster of course, and more arcane, but covers skill checks better and has Inspire Courage for buffs.
Any thoughts from anyone? Other classes that might be better?
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Well the higher level we go the more important access to quick healing will be, reducing how often we need to break off of an encounter, regroup, heal and come back. It'll also make dealing with things like undead a lot less brutal.
If we're losing our NPC Bard, then the buffs and skills will be useful, if she's sticking around, then the Oracle would be a better choice. Also, assuming I can somehow be raised/resurrected, the urban ranger has a decent amount of skill overlap that we aren't quite hurting for skills.
From an IC standpoint either would work. With Thrune's suppression of the arts and knowledge I can easiysee an increased number of Bards joining the resistance, and an oracle, driven by whatever divine source they're touched by, feeling compelled to fight the good fight makes sense as well.
I think having access to higher level divine magic would be the best option. Bard buffs are a good thing but being able to negate status effects and gain better access to healing/resurrection magic would be preferred IMO.
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@Arani: Uh, did I read your post right? You're currently dead? That's a problem for sure...
How far is Caldariel planning to go with the non-magical healing feats? Aside from Life and maybe Succor, Oracles aren't exactly premier healers. But if there are two decent healers in the party it should be alright.
I've never done much with a Cleric before, it's always seemed a drab class. Hells Rebels also seems an awkward fit for a cleric. The class skills and miserable number of skill points means they can never be smooth operators, and several of the possible deities could invite extra attention and trouble. But I could give it a look to see if I could come up with something interesting.
How is the party fixed for melee combat? How much help might be needed there? The Oracle build I mentioned would be able to help, but wouldn't be very effective.
Oh, also I've mention of a boon thing of some sort. What's up with that?
Ah, almost forgot about that. Roll me 3 1d30s (Yes--1d30s). I'll get back to you about the results (or lack thereof).
Yeah, the first 2 rolls were not really applicable (allowing your PC to be from areas of Golarion not on the original GM's list). Which brings us to the third....
14: You can use Words of Power spellcasting (Ultimate Magic) instead of normal spellcasting if you are a spellcaster. (Honestly, I'm not keen on learning a new subsystem at this point. How about a bonus non-combat or teamwork feat? Those shouldn't be too overpowering (I hope!) Also, there might be some other boons from the Hells Rebels organization subsystem forthcoming.
I will be gone June 21-25, 2023 for Origins, and Gencon August 3–6, 2023.
Wealth By Level suggests a 7th-level PC should have 23,500 gp in equipment and gold.
This is a good place and time to announce that once the party's dealt with the skum caster in the flooded tunnel (and maybe with any other threats yet to be encountered down there), I'll be leveling everyone up to 7th-level. While you level up, do an inventory to make sure your character is at least in the ballpark figure listed above (23,500 gp). If not, pick out additional gear to get you up near that threshold and I'll come up with some in-game way that you came into possession of the new stuff.
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I've been tinkering with Oracle builds to see what I could do in terms of rounding out the party. I've been trying to come up with versions that wouldn't be overly specialized into one area, and that seemed interesting to play. I'm went to around 11th to 13th level with the builds and expect that most of what is added at levels higher than that will be help spells stick as opponents' SR and saves get stronger.
All three builds are approximately equivalent in terms of healing and battlefield control since those tend to be due to spell selection rather than class features.
I've only built one Oracle previously so it took a while sort of what the class can really do. There are three builds here. I'd love to hear what anyone thinks about them in terms of which one would work best in the party and/or if any of them seem flawed in some way. The only magic items I've included to the build are the ones affecting ability scores, and saves. Everyone is assumed to have a belt for their main physical stat +2, a headband of CHA +2, and a cloak of protection +1.
The first one focuses on skills, especially knowledge skills, and buffing. Evangelist expands skill points/level and in class skills. It can also debuff due to the archetype. More divination focused than the others. Combat is very simple, power attack and a morningstar.
Human Oracle (Cyclopian Seer / Lore Mystery) 6 / Evangelist (Desna) 2
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +6
AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+4 Armor, +5 Cha, +1 Dodge)
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +6
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +8
Ranged +6
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 20
Base Atk +5; CMB 8; CMD +19
Traits:
Child of Kintargo (+1 K Nobility and in class, +200 gp)
Resilient (+1 FORT)
Dangerously Curious: (+1 UMD and in class)
Human
+1 Feat
Skilled (+1 Skill point/level)
Feats
Bonus: Deific Obedience (Desna)
1. Extra Rev. Sidestep Secret
1. Noble Scion (House Tannesen)
3. Power Attack
5. Extra Rev. (Flash of Insight)
7. Extra Rev. Mental Acuity
9. Extra Rev. Prescience
11. Divine Interference
Revelations
1. Assume Fate
3. Lore Keeper
8. Brutal Trance
12. Doomsaying
Evangelist:
Skilled (Bluff, Acrobatics)
Protective Grace (+1 AC Dodge)
Compared to the first build, this one doesn't use many revelations. The Ascetic mystery is just about setting up a melee and bad punch (like the bad touch cleric) debuffer. While the first build can help in combat, this build wants to be in melee using unarmed strikes to deliver touch spells. It won't do tons of damage, but if it's hitting with mild damage and Bestow Curse, it will pull its weight I think. This build is also the most flexible due to spirit guide. It is potentially the best healer because it can pick up the Life Spirit for the same basic abilities as a Life Oracle. Second place in terms of knowledge checks due to Irori's Deific Obedience boon.
Human Oracle (Spirit Guide / Ascetic Mystery) 6, Unchained Scaled Fist Monk 1
LG Medium Humanoid
Init +2; Senses Perception +6
AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+4 Armor, +5 Cha, +1 Dodge)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +8
Ranged +6
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 20
Base Atk +6; CMB 9; CMD +20
Traits:
Fed-Up Citizen (No aura before 9th, +1 Disguise and in class)
Reactionary (+1 Initiative)
Dangerously Curious: (+1 UMD and in class)
Human
+1 Feat
Skilled (+1 Skill point/level)
Feats
Bonus Deific Obedience (Irori)
1. Dodge
1. Cosmopolitan (Bluff, K Local in class)
Monk Bonus Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus Dragon Style
3. Extra Rev Ascetic Armor
5. Mobility
7. Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
9. Jabbing Style
11. Divine Interference
Revelations
1. Martial Disciple
3. Spirit Bond
7. N/A
11. Fleet
This build is a pure caster who'll be avoiding melee. This one will probably be the strongest spell caster due to having Ill Omen and Misfortune to make sure things stick. Also a very slippery and stealthy character, plenty of luck built in to stay safe. Probably last place in terms of knowledge checks. No means of boosting skill points, though Knowledge of the Ages helps a little.
Halfling Oracle (Dual-Cursed / Time Mystery) 7
CG Small Humanoid
Init +4 Perception +5
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+4 Armor, +4 Dex +1 Small)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +6
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +9
Ranged +9
Str 11, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 20
Base Atk +5; CMB 5; CMD +19
Traits:
Urban Sleuth (Campaign): Local Dragons option (K Arcana +1 and in class)
Fate's Favored: (+1 to Luck Bonuses)
Dangerously Curious: (+1 UMD and in class)
Halfling
Small
Fey Thoughts (Bluff, Stealth in class)
Adaptable Luck (+2 Luck on Attack, Save, Skill, or Ability check 3/day)
Keen Senses (+2 Perception)
Fleet of Foot (30’ Movement)
Shadowhunter
Feats
Bonus: Deific Obedience (Chaldira)
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Risky Striker
5. Extra Rev. (Knowledge of Ages)
7. Diverse Obedience
9. Extra Rev. (Rewind Time)
11. Extra Rev. (Speed/Slow Time)
Revelations
1. Temporal Celerity
3. Misfortune
5. Erase from Time
7. Time Hop
11. Time Sight
13. Fortune
Although I still have to finish buying gear and write up the BAP sections for the character, Desdemona is mostly finished now.
Hookay then. I guess I'll just decide what's best all on my own.
I'm going with the Lore Oracle / Evangelist.
@GM Silversong:: Any news yet on a second player being recruited?
Sorry, long weekend, been busy. Looks good.
@ Arani: Your character is dead? What's going to happen with that? Is there some means of resurrection, or are you making a new character?
Waiting to see, in game.
Hi everyone, DBH here. Profession smith 6 ranks has offered me a place in the game.
Looking at who is playing I can see most areas are covered. I was considering either a pure Rogue, or an Arcane Trickster. What does the group feel would work best with them?
Dang--you hit the good one!
1: 25 point buy
11: -2 to one stat, +2 to another. (No stat may be below 6 or above 20 after racial adjustments)
Before I give an official OK, I'd like to hear from other players to make sure they're OK with a new player getting a 25-point buy PC when theirs are only 20-point buys (plus whatever boon they rolled).