Will do a more substantial update in the morning for the gameplay thread, Leonard doesn't seem to be objecting to the kingdom building so I will post that here in the discussion thread in the morning.
Will do a more substantial update in the morning for the gameplay thread, Leonard doesn't seem to be objecting to the kingdom building so I will post that here in the discussion thread in the morning.
I'm good with the kingdom building. I just don't have the source material.
It's on the SRD
It's on the SRD
Thanks.
Everyone counts as the ruler of their part of the kingdom. Everyone also has a Viceroy assigned to them: Old Smoky Bill. He adds +3 to your economy as that is half his Int mod. As a Ruler you can apply another stat other that Charisma for your bonuses as long as it isn’t your highest stat. (Just so people who invested in Charisma don’t get shafted in that regard.)
Current Allies able to fill in rolls and location:
Vaklam: Clark, Malakai, Marsh/Plains
Leonard: Namah, Mountain/Plains
Min: Bard James Bard, Mouth of the Pugwampi, Forest/Plains.
The Shard: Korina, Celty, River/Coast
Start at base kingdom size. I can’t see how this increases but I’m sure someone has spotted it, if so post it please.
1 settlement to start, 9 districts with 4 lots per district.
Let’s start with everyone having 7 hexes, one being filled up with your base settlement your capital. Everyone has 150BP to spend at first, let’s see what people make with that. Post your build chart and I will add or subtract BP depending on what we get. The two listed terrain types I’ve got for each city is 3 hexes of each type.
I might have missed something important, as I’m new to these rules … If I have do state it so I can add it.
2 farms 4 Bp
1 roads
UNIVERSITY 78
discounts
Bardic College 40
Library 6
Magical Academy 58
Museum 30
145
total 150
Have to say I was kind of torn. I could have gotten a lot more benefit from getting a lot of little buildings, but I really liked the idea of having the biggest university and such. If I had a few more points I would put in a SEWER SYSTEM.
I just did a little math and my little kingdoms stats are
Eco +5 Loy+1 Stability +1 Fame+3 (not counting leaders or vacancy penalties)
However the control DC is 20+9districts+7hexs=36. That means that my kingdom will fail every kingdom check. Not a tenable kingdom. I am going to have to rework things.
Edit: looking over all the buiding to find out which ones have the greatest BP to benefit ratio. I have found that Library and Brewery are the best. This is somewhat convent because I like the idea of having a lot of libraries. One for every subject.
So
24 Libraries
2 farms
and 2 roads
therefor kingdom stats are Eco+24 Loy +24 Stability +0
However the control DC is still 20+9districts+7hexs=36. So despite heavy Min maxing I will still fail my control DC's more then half the time on Eco and Loy and every time on Stability. This really does not work can I ask for a rethinking on your part Old Smoky?
How about you just build a better city?
You realize that what you propose isn't actually a real city, right? Which is what the rules are supposed to support. You want a literal fantasy city, which can't possibly exist in the real world.
Where's your shops? your inns? You don't even have any place for people to live.
No it is not a real city. A real city is composed of hundreds of in-connected parts far beyond the ability of these rules to simulate. I am trying to make a city that can make the kingdom checks however no matter how hard I try I can not do it.
You have it easy. Most of the people in your city don't eat or sleep you can just have a bunch of graveyards and stuff like that.
Have you truly read the rules? You absolutely can make a real city, wherein you aren't struggling to make checks.
As I said, why don't you have any tenements/houses/villas? Where are your barracks, or walls even? You have nothing but libraries, where does all the librarians live?
You also lack a castle, or similar spot to serve as your seat of power. You can't have a kingdom without such.
Our shared one doesn't count, I do not believe.
Yes, most of my people are undead, but I still need to be able to make the proper checks otherwise I earn nothing, and my kingdom may rebel. They're lack of normal biological functions does not negate their chance to rebel if they are unhappy with my rule.
Roquefort (Shard’s City)
Alignment: LE (+4 Economy checks)
Consumption: 0 (7-9)
Control DC: 36 (20 + 7 + 9)
Population:
Size: 7 (hexes claimed)
Treasury: 4 BP left
Unrest: 0
Economy: -3 (4 + 3 – 16 + 6)
Loyalty: + 1 (-4 -2 + 7)
Stability: + 4 (-2 -2 + 8)
Other Settlement factors:
Crime: 0
Law: 2
Lore: 1
Productivity: 2
---------------------------
Leadership Roles
---------------------------
Ruler: The Shard (no effect)
Consort: None
Councilor: None (-2 Loyalty +1 Unrest during Upkeep) goes to Celty
General: None (yet) (-4 Loyalty)
Grand Diplomat: None (-2 Stability)
High Priest: None (-2 Stability, -2 Loyalty +1 Unrest during Upkeep)
Magister: None (-4 Economy)
Marshal: None (-4 Economy)
Royal Enforcer: None (no effect)
Spymaster: None (-4 Economy, +1 Unrest During Upkeep)
Treasurer: None (-4 Economy)
Viceroy: Old Smoky (+3 Economy)
Warden: None (-2 Loyalty, -2 Stability) goes to Korina
----------------------------
Terrain Improvements: 18 BP
----------------------------
3 Fisheries at River sites (Consumption -3) 12 BP
3 Farms at Plain sites (Consumption -6) 6 BP
----------------------------
City Buildings: 128 BP
----------------------------
Monastery (2 lots, Stability +1, Lore +1 Law +1) 16 BP
Pier (1 lot, Economy +1, Stability + 1) 16 BP
Inn (1 lot Economy +1, Loyalty + 1) 10 BP
Herbalist (1 lot Loyalty + 1, Stability + 1) 10 BP
Granary (1 lot Loyalty +1, Stability +1) 12 BP
Brewery ( 1 lot, Loyalty + 1, Stability + 1) 6 BP
Jail (1 lot Loyalty +2, Stability + 2, Crime -1 Law +1) 14 BP
2 Shops (2 lots, Economy + 2 , Productivity + 2) 16 BP
Smithy (1 lot, Economy +1, Stability +1) 6 BP
Stable (1 lot, Economy +1 Loyalty + 1)10 BP
4 Houses (4 lots, Unrest -4 one-time bonus) 12 BP
How does this look? The DC check to Stabilize we can never get unless we fill in some more needed Leadership roles.
And I don't believe we need 9 districts with 4 lots just yet, that will lower the DC as well.
Now I've built up 16 lots out of 36, if we have 6 districts, we lower the check DC by 3, get ourselves a Grand diplomat, General and High Priest to increase our Stability by +9 or so. Would still result in a +17 modifier and must roll a 16+ to Stabilize but at least capable of stabilizing.
Okay I'm going to check up a few things, but one problem with your city is that you MUST have housing of some kind. And the basic Tenements give you +2 Unrest a piece. So your town without any housing, is a barren empty place, if you've filled it up with tenements well a revolt will happen quite easy.
Also a standard settlement has 9 districts (empty ones don't count towards DC), with 24 libraries you haven't filled it up either. So in fact you have 6 districts, that'll reduce your DC by 3.
So DC is 33. So you have: 24, 24, 0 for your stats and lots of unrest. Also have you added in your leadership bonuses? You know, +3 Cha from yourself and +3 from Old smokey. Let's put that into Economy let's say. So your economy is 30. Now you haven't added the alignment of your town. Let's take Lawful evil, that is a further +4.
So you would pass that roll on a -1, how is that hard? Though your citizens do need somewhere to live, I ain't counting the library as a livable building.
Anyway, I do need to get in Edicts someplace. I think we can do 36 Edict phases for free for the three years the kingdoms have been in power. I guess it is easier doing it that way instead of saying you have 7 hexes. All hexes count as explored and all kingdom rolls for the first 36 phases are passed for free (you just won't get more BP as that is the 150 I've given you.)
I shall write up a document now with the hexes for each character and the Edict turns so I can keep track of what is going on. Sorry for not posting in gameplay this morning something came up. I think though we should go on break while we get this kingdom thing set up properly otherwise my mind will be everywhere. Sorry for the delay on that guys! Hopefully we shall have fun building kingdoms though.
Edit: I did miss the Vacancy penalties on some of the positions yes, let's see what those are:
Consort: None
Councilor: None (-2 Loyalty +1 Unrest during Upkeep)
General: None (-4 Loyalty)
Grand Diplomat: None (-2 Stability)
High Priest: None (-2 Stability, -2 Loyalty +1 Unrest during Upkeep)
Magister: None (-4 Economy)
Marshal: None (-4 Economy)
Spymaster: None (-4 Economy, +1 Unrest During Upkeep)
Treasurer: None (-4 Economy)
Warden: None (-2 Loyalty, -2 Stability)
Hmm, I do want to do something about that. Let's try this, you all have your basic set of men however if it is not a 'named' NPC or someone generated from the Leadership feat they grant no bonus they just get rid of the penalty.
tenements/houses do not give any bonus to checks so I fail to see how having them will make me not struggling to make checks.
As for making the city completely out of libraries that was somewhat of a thought experiment to demonstrate that under the current circumstances I can not make a viable kingdom.
I need a much smaller more concentrated Kingdom maybe only 3 Hexes and a lot less districts.
On another note can I make the head Spymaster of my Spymasters take the Spymaster role in my Kingdom?
Edit: just read Old Smoky new post. It is true that I do get some bonuses from Edicts and leadership. However I get far more Vacancy Penalties at this point.
Houses make your people less likely to rebel. The higher your unrest, the greater the chance your citizens say "f this crap" and go a rioting.
Also I'd want to run some propaganda to attract a few of my citizens to take a leading role, Shopkeepers for Treasurer, Herbalist/Healer for High Priest, General is laid down for Pytha-Gora when I reach lvl 9 but I'd need an interim before that.
Also Old Smoky what are the modifiers for our NPC allies that take leadership roles? now I'm just guessing what their best ability score is so it is hard to assign them to any leadership role at all.
With regards to tenenments/housing I'm saying your town would be empty, so there would be no checks to make. I do want somewhere for your people to actually live.
With all the leadership roles with no penalties, that would really help much Old Smoky. Thanks.
Alignment: LE (+4 Economy checks)
Consumption: 0 (7-9+2)
Control DC: 31 (20 + 7 + 4)
Population:
Size: 7 (hexes claimed)
Treasury: 4 BP left
Unrest: 0
Economy: +13 (4 + 3 + 6)
Loyalty: + 7 (7)
Stability: + 10 (8+2)
Following would be the improved version without bonuses of new leaders yet.
I never took my fourth feat, as I was not sure what to take. May I take Leadership?
If so, could I hold off on gaining a cohort? I would really like a Dullahan.
Also, I have several Special Powers, would each one add +1 to my Leadership score?
Okay let's get the NPC mods out, kind of metaing here but doesn't matter too much.
Korina: Str +4 Dex +2 Con +2 Int +1 Wis -2 Cha +3
Celty: Str +0 Dex +2 Con +0 Int +3 Wis +4 Cha +1
Namah: Str +2 Dex +3 Con +3 Int +1 Wis +0 Cha +1
Mouth of the Pugwampi: Str -3, Dex +4, Con -1, Int +4, Wis +1, Cha +1
Clark: Str +4, Dex +3 Con +1 Int -1 Wis +4 Cha -1
@Vaklam: Yes you can take Leadership and wait for a cohort. Which special powers do you mean? Don't forget I will be giving everyone a boon based on their character at the end. Some have already been determined but I haven't but stats on it, for example Leonard's is the Hellgate.
Edit: I see where I might have confused people with regards to districts, sorry. Each district is 9 blocks each with 4 lots, I got the terminology wrong. Sorry.
One house rule I want to add now is every district must have at least 1/9th of their total occupied spaces filled up with houses or tenements. So if you filled out an entire district, at least 4 of those lots must be dedicated to habitation of some kind.
This basically means 8/9 lots can be anything but that last lot must be dedicated to living space.
So that would lower the control DC remarkably, A DC of 28 is beatable with a Stabilty check of +14. Every start is difficult I guess, so I don't mind getting a few turns of unrest before stabilizing.
Shard, I think you forgot to add your second highest attribute to one of the kingdom stats. You can use that instead of Charisma I ruled that a few posts up. That'll bump it up by a further 3.
With regards to hexes I will change it, you have the one you start with your capital, this is how it'll go:
We will have 36 phases, representing 3 years of development since you came into power. You have 150BP to spend over that time, which is a lot by my reckoning.
Upkeep phases you won't get more BP, but you must pay consumption during each phase and modify unrest accordingly. You are considering having succeeded each roll (just not gain the BP but lose the unrest).
You will perform 36 Edict phases, stating what level each edict is each turn.
I will place an event every four turns, I will randomly determine what this event is for each of you. You shall know in advance so gives you some foresight to plan for it.
Let's see if we can make some fun towns out of this process, I shall place a spreadsheet from google docs soon.
Okay here is the link to the sheet: Kingdom building
Everyone has their own tab, so please only use the one labelled for you. I trust you guys!
Each step place the level of edict (none, token, standard etc).
With regards to improvement, say if you are doing anything during that phase. So if you are building say, add House and add Inn (13BP). Don't use symbols as it is a spreadsheet.
As we do this let's see if the BP holds up to make a decently sizable kingdom. If you feel it doesn't do say so.
Remember to put your ruler bonus, alignment bonus and NPC bonus(es) to the right.
The first line 'Founding' should have the first stats after taking into account ruler, alignment etc. I have given everyone a town hall and a house to start with at founding. So the first line is mostly done except the base bonuses. Then we go from there. I am currently rolling the random events so don't be surprised if you see them suddenly crop up out of nowhere.
(We won't be using optional rules as I ain't familiar with the base system yet so.. screw adding more complication right away!)
How's this
GL 52 (Min's City)
Alignment: LE (+4 Economy checks)
Consumption 4
Control DC: 28=20+4(used Districts)+4Used hexes
Population:
Size 4 Used Hexes
Treasury: 3 BP Left
Unrest:0
Economy +23 Loyalty +11 Stability +18
Fame +2 Society +3 Crime 0, Law +1 Lore +2 Productivity +2
Edicts
6 Holidays a year (+2 Loyalty + 2 Consumption)
Promotion Standard +2 Stability +2 Consumption
Tax Level NONE +0 Economy +1 Loyalty
Buildings
4 roads Economy +1
3 farms
2 Noble Villas (Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Fame +2) 48 Bp
Inn (Economy +1, Loyalty +1) 10 Bp
1 Sewer System (Loyalty +1, Stability +2 Crime +1, Productivity +1) 24 Bp (I want get indoor plumbing, I guess this is the first step)
Cistern (Stability +1) (discounted by Sewer) 3 Bp
Dump (Stability +1) (discounted by Sewer) 2 Bp
Granary (Loyalty +1, Stability +1) 12 Bp
Jail (Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest –2, Crime –1, Law +1) 14 Bp
2 Library (Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Lore +2) 12 Bp
Mill (Economy +1, Stability +1, Productivity +1) 6 Bp
Smithy (Economy +1, Stability +1) 6 Bp
Leadership
Ruler: Min Classified +4 to Eco
Consort: Unfilled
Councilor:Unfilled
General: Unfilled
Grand Diplomat: James Bard +4 Stability
Heir: Unfilled
High Priest: Who needs one
Magister: Unfilled
Marshal: Mouth of the Pugwampi +4 Eco
Royal Enforcer: Unfilled
Spymaster: I would like to fill it with the head of my Spymasters
Treasurer:Unfilled
Viceroy: Old Smoky +3 Eco
Warden: Unfilled
I wanted to make a more themed Academia, but Only really had enough for the basics
Okay great, however at the minute your founding has all your building steps in which you can't do.
Turn 36 is up until current time, Founding was 3 years ago game time. So can you label each point your build or claim a hex etc. It's why I made the spreadsheets.
Founding should have no edicts, this is when you built the town 3 years ago. We are going through the process of 'leveling' up as it were. Each turn you declare a new edict and just do each thing in turn. If there are rolls to be made at an Event tell me which rolls you are doing and I'll double check on the sheet.
Ok. Put the random events on my sheet and I'll work it out.
Rolling all done for everyone now, if anyone got any questions about the sheets do ask.
Actually, after I asked that, I realized I do not really know what they mean by Special Power in the Leadership chart. I kinda figured it meant a racial power or spellcasting, or some other similar ability, but I have no idea. Hence, I will ask James Jacobs.
Just to clarify, we aren't earning more BP for the prior 36 turns, correct? I assume once our cities catch up to the current point in time, we will earn BP during the proper step as normal?
After this point yes we will be earning things at the normal rate, each phase will be one week to tie into the assignment instead of a month.
Well my City was finished by turn 15. I really wish I could afford to get a MUSEUM.
Are we supposed to pay consumption each turn? Or is that already factored in to the 150 BP we start with, as in, its net?
Otherwise, we're gonna possibly loose a fair amount of BP, but not gain any back.
Also, do we need to check for stability/unrest each turn? If so, shall we roll here, and does the first turn count, or should that be included in the Founding?
Finally(for now) I assume we are using the other Settlement rules, from the GMG? Law, Crime, Society, etc?
Edit: Some of the terrain features require things like mountains, hills, caverns, etc. Can we assume that since our kingdom is so big, we have these? or must we stick with just the two listed above?
So I haven't had a chance to look at the rules yet. I've been swamped at work and with the new house. I spent the day doing yard work and I'm exhausted. I'll look over them when I get a chance.
You can pay for Consumption with farms. In fact I never have consumption if I can't pay for it.
I asked James Jacobs about what "Special Power" in the Leadership chart meant, and this is what he had to say:
Special power is pretty much anything that's unusual that would attract the attention of followers or cohorts. It's left vague intentionally so the GM can decide what counts and what does not.
It's possible to have multiple special powers, but the bonus it grants doesn't stack; you only ever get +1.
I would say my Create Spawn ability is a pretty good place to start.
Personally, I think multiple special powers should stack, but then I'm also somebody who personally believes Leadership is both quite overpowered and vastly underpowered.
Edit: I will definitely be taking Leadership, how should I stat out my NPCs? or at least the highest level one?
Should I use the basic array, the heroic array, something else?
Are we supposed to pay consumption each turn? Or is that already factored in to the 150 BP we start with, as in, its net?
Otherwise, we're gonna possibly loose a fair amount of BP, but not gain any back.
Answer:
The first line 'Founding' should have the first stats after taking into account ruler, alignment etc. I have given everyone a town hall and a house to start with at founding. So the first line is mostly done except the base bonuses. Then we go from there. I am currently rolling the random events so don't be surprised if you see them suddenly crop up out of nowhere.
Upkeep phases you won't get more BP, but you must pay consumption during each phase and modify unrest accordingly. You are considering having succeeded each roll (just not gain the BP but lose the unrest).
Consumption shouldn't be a problem, the two who have done the first 10-15 turns haven't had to pay anything.
Also, do we need to check for stability/unrest each turn? If so, shall we roll here, and does the first turn count, or should that be included in the Founding?
Check above, the only rolls you will need to do is for random events. I have already placed those on the table just tell me which event roll you are doing and post them here. I will then compare it to your Control DC at that point.
Finally(for now) I assume we are using the other Settlement rules, from the GMG? Law, Crime, Society, etc?
Answer:
(We won't be using optional rules as I ain't familiar with the base system yet so.. screw adding more complication right away!)
Edit: Some of the terrain features require things like mountains, hills, caverns, etc. Can we assume that since our kingdom is so big, we have these? or must we stick with just the two listed above?
Answer:
Current Allies able to fill in rolls and location:
Vaklam: Clark, Malakai, Marsh/Plains
Leonard: Namah, Mountain/Plains
Min: Bard James Bard, Mouth of the Pugwampi, Forest/Plains.
The Shard: Korina, Celty, River/Coast
Everyone will be considered to have a water source of some kind if a building requires it.
I asked James Jacobs about what "Special Power" in the Leadership chart meant, and this is what he had to say:
James Jacobs wrote:
Special power is pretty much anything that's unusual that would attract the attention of followers or cohorts. It's left vague intentionally so the GM can decide what counts and what does not.It's possible to have multiple special powers, but the bonus it grants doesn't stack; you only ever get +1.
I would say my Create Spawn ability is a pretty good place to start.
Personally, I think multiple special powers should stack, but then I'm also somebody who personally believes Leadership is both quite overpowered and vastly underpowered.
Answer:
Don't forget I will be giving everyone a boon based on their character at the end. Some have already been determined but I haven't but stats on it, for example Leonard's is the Hellgate.
Edit: I will definitely be taking Leadership, how should I stat out my NPCs? or at least the highest level one?
Should I use the basic array, the heroic array, something else?
The cohort should use heroic array.
So I haven't had a chance to look at the rules yet. I've been swamped at work and with the new house. I spent the day doing yard work and I'm exhausted. I'll look over them when I get a chance.
Don't worry take your time, if you get stuck feel free to ask.
Edit: I have now put the spreadsheet in campaign info so it does not get lost.
For Monster Attack
DC 23
For Drug Den
DC 25
DC 25
For the Improvement demand (build) event I am out of BP at that point what building is it?
Boom town rolls are for corruption so no effect I guess.
vs DC 24
Heh good rolls on everyone so far, for the two that got to about step 15. If I were to give more build points where do you think will go and how big do you think your town will be?
I'm just weighing out if I should give out more BP immediately.
Busy weekend, will begin my city once I am home from work.
Just curious, I was talking to my my younger bro about this game and he expressed an interest in playing, provided we want to replace those we've lost.
@The shard: Boom town also adds +1d4 economy to the next step I believe, or have I got that wrong?
@Min: I will need to look what you can build at that point I think I can only randomly choose between buildings that are possible to construct at that point in time. Let me first figure out if I should be awarding more BP first.
@Vaklam: Yes if he would like to join by all means, I would just need the basic gestalt idea, evil overlord idea and soon the town but we are still working that all out!
Be nice if we had some navy power.
If I had more BP I would build a MUSEUM. A bardic College would be nice too.
@Smoky +4 Economy yes, that's now in the sheet. Only the 1d4 Corruption for my Settlement had to be rolled, but that's not necessary without the additional rules.
@ Min If I read correctly our control DC 20 + Hexes Claimed + Districts in cities.
I've claimed 3 hexes for a total of 4 hexes, owning 1 District + 20 = DC 25
How did you get a control DC of 28?
Old smoky said that each district was only 4 lots. Needed more districts to fit my buildings.
Question what do the magic items that buildings produce do in this game?
Edit: I see where I might have confused people with regards to districts, sorry. Each district is 9 blocks each with 4 lots, I got the terminology wrong. Sorry.
One house rule I want to add now is every district must have at least 1/9th of their total occupied spaces filled up with houses or tenements. So if you filled out an entire district, at least 4 of those lots must be dedicated to habitation of some kind.
This basically means 8/9 lots can be anything but that last lot must be dedicated to living space.
Each District has 9 blocks, such a block consists of 4 lots, so you have 36 lots per district.
As such Min you should have a different control DC.
20 + 1 (District) + 4(four Roads, means 4 claimed hexes, including your settlement hex)= 25
Enforcer lowers Unrest to 0, Loyalty, check succeeds.
Stability check for Banditry, check succeeds.
Loyalty check for Feud, check definitely succeeds.
Stability check for Drug Den, succeed.
Loyalty for Drug Den, succeed.
, 10 extra build points via Economic Boon.
Loyalty check for Vandals, succeed.
Stability check for Vandals, succeed.
build points will be added to my total, once I satisfy Building Demand.
Thanks Shard sense I have made all my rolls so far I am not going to recalculate my past, but I'll set my DC to 25 now.
I realise I did not roll for discovery before
Festival: Sense it won't last to the present day I don't think I will bother with gifts.
Inquisition: I failed the check. I am going to say that this is way I am involved in this war in the first place. The Public pressure became so great that I had to go along with it in order to take control back. Can you help give me names for these people?
Improvement demand (build): don't Know what I need to build. But just in case I can't
Archaeological find: Cool +1 Lore I like Lore
Economic Boom Was hopping for more
Feud I would seem that a feud got started start week or so and I have not been able to Surpress it. Can you help give me names for these people?
At the end of all this I have a war, a Feud, +5 Lore and +1 Fame.
How are people getting along, I see that Vaklam has done a bit and both Min and The shard have gotten to turn 15 and run out of money. If I stretch the BP to 300 do you think you guys can get nearish to 36 turns before it runs out?
I'd be a bit more careful with my money yes, probably upgrade a few things and have some BP left for unforseen events
Smoky, check what I posted under the spoiler, I have some things that need GM rulings.
Also, I'm totally tapped out on BP, sans whatever I spend for my building demand +4.
If you increase the BP to 300. I should be able if last close to the end if I keep away from the big buildings.