End Of Discussions: An epic fight between martials and casters

Game Master ElMustacho

My 7th-level CRB wizard is ready for the duel against MendedWall's fighter. I'm not sure whether I'll ever end up participating in the team battles, though.

Then you also have druid companions, paladin mounts, ranger companions, familiars of all stripes, etc.

It's actually much more common for a class to be able to get a companion, then easily archetype out of it.

Perhaps most importantly it rather skews the contest away from martials in that it closes off a number of combat styles to them, from mounted charges, to mounted archery, switch-riding, in-character team work with an animal companion, teamwork feats.

This is also going off the assumption that all companions are created equal.

Personally, I see no reason to bother with companions or familiars with leadership available as having two paladins with divine bond. or two wizards with bonded items is far preferable than either with their respective animals, regardless of the equivalent action economy.

Then of course we haven't discussed how this effects teams with multiple players. Will one team composing of a wizard, a familiar, and a planar bound barbazau need to fight three ranger players of various archetypes and no companions?

I appreciate the effort to attempt to keep things equivalent action wise but I ultimately feel that it does little more than narrow the field of worthwhile builds. Particularly in cases where there is a clear superiority ion those options (base ranger companion versus base druid companion versus leadership for two druids).

Ima mull this over and consider an alternative to present later.

Just created a sheet where you can register yourself as players.
Click.
It's not really a registration, you just add your forum name, your character name, your level and your system in either casters or martials, and that is. There's a search function, more or less.

Just created a sheet where you can register yourself as players.

Click.
It's not really a registration, you just add your forum name, your character name, your level and your system in either casters or martials, and that is. There's a search function, more or less.

Registered, I've also PMed you my two character profiles, regular and buffed.

Thanks again for being willing to do this CMDDM.

I do think that we should at least entertain the idea of allowing companions in somehow. The problem is when you open that door up, you then open the Pandora's box of letting casters bring in summons... and I'm not so sure I want that to happen. Definitely worth discussing though.

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:

Just created a sheet where you can register yourself as players.

Click.
It's not really a registration, you just add your forum name, your character name, your level and your system in either casters or martials, and that is. There's a search function, more or less.

Registered, I've also PMed you my two character profiles, regular and buffed.

Thanks again for being willing to do this CMDDM.

I do think that we should at least entertain the idea of allowing companions in somehow. The problem is when you open that door up, you then open the Pandora's box of letting casters bring in summons... and I'm not so sure I want that to happen. Definitely worth discussing though.

My stance on this is that, if you're removing things from the arena that favors one side, you're creating safe space for the other side.

That needs to go, because we're here to do science. If summoners faceroll martials, then that is the result of the test, and not trying to test it is just sticking our fingers in our ears and going 'nah nah, martials are better than casters nah'. The appropriate response to which of course is 'What are you saying? I can't hear you over the sound of this balor stomping on a monks head!'

At least, that's my somewhat over-dramatized stance.
I don't know what my opinion counts for here. But there it is.

Incidentally, could you put links up on this page when fights are begun so people can easily find them on here, even if they're not participating?

On the other hand, it seems to me that there are a lot of people who will steadfastly deny the existence of a caster-martial disparity but are completely ready to attest to the overpowered-ness of an APG Summoner or even "pet classes" in general. Such an audience would view a pet-inclusive battle as simultaneously confirming their judgments on pets being overpowered and (somehow) on the C/MD not really existing.

Actually, that's a really, really good point.

MendedWall12, the 8th level characters made by Goddity and myself are in the PFS category, not the PRD category. Not sure if you still want to participate in that fight, but if so we need another caster.

In terms of companions, can we at least agree that familiars that take no actions are allowed without changing the party balance?

Caster-Martial Discussion DM, I don't want to get into specifics, but one of my upcoming characters intends to summon a creature during the preparation time. How should this be handled? Do we really need to add another character on the opposing side to account for this? Can we just let summoning happen and see how it goes? Should we use a limit of one summoned creature per side?

Just to be clear, it wasn't the "casters auto-win" that made me not want to allow summons, it was simply me trying to be nice to the GM. If you let the casters summon, which I'm not morally opposed to, suddenly you have a LOT of things acting on the casters' turn, and the whole PbP could be bogged down. So if summoning is auto-win for casters, so be it, I have no problem accepting that as a point of order. I do want the arena fights to move quickly, and be entertaining, and watching a million and one summoned creatures stomp everything in the arena, doesn't necessarily seem entertaining, to me anyway.

@Avoron, I'm fine with creating a level 8 PFS caster if that will get a bout going. :) It more than likely won't be done until this weekend though...

Just to be clear, it wasn't the "casters auto-win" that made me not want to allow summons, it was simply me trying to be nice to the GM. If you let the casters summon, which I'm not morally opposed to, suddenly you have a LOT of things acting on the casters' turn, and the whole PbP could be bogged down. So if summoning is auto-win for casters, so be it, I have no problem accepting that as a point of order. I do want the arena fights to move quickly, and be entertaining, and watching a million and one summoned creatures stomp everything in the arena, doesn't necessarily seem entertaining, to me anyway.

@Avoron, I'm fine with creating a level 8 PFS caster if that will get a bout going. :) It more than likely won't be done until this weekend though...

Well, if there's an ideal medium to use summoned creatures in, pbp is probably it. People have a lot more time to resolve rules and make attacks than at a table-top.

The problem is in the action economy. In a 1 vs 1, bringing a companion means that you are acting twice every round.

For now, leave cavaliers idea. I'm going to place rules for cases like this.

I also noticed the name.

I understand... But if the goal is to compare effectiveness of classes, it doesn't make sense to remove class features from certain classes, and companions and the boost in action economy they bring are part of those class features. This is akin to ruling that Fighters either don't benefit from Weapon Training or can only do so if one of the opponents gains an equal bonus.

To make the action economy not as annoying to deal with, you could simply rule that they act in the same turn as their masters. That should make the battle move faster, though it might be too good for characters with high initiative, in which case you could rule companions, unless directed by the character (like mounts) always act last in the round.

That said, I do think Leadership should be excluded... It's too powerful a feat and very often banned; It's basically an auto-pick for every character so it reduces the variety of builds. Additionally, since the follower also uses class levels, it doesn't add much to the discussion

I'd just like to cast one more vote for allowing summons and class-based companions to participate freely. I'm still planning on having a character use summoning at some point during the 3 round preparation time, and I'd appreciate it if that didn't cripple that character's side. If the quantity of actions is a pain or unbalances things unrealistically in favor of the casters, we can always change the rules for later rounds.

I do, however, agree that Leadership ought to be excluded for similar reasons to those listed above. I also think we ought to exclude any companion creatures that are not either procured during the preparation time or directly received from a class feature. So things like simulacrums and planar bindings and purchased creatures, unless they can be obtained during the 3 round time in the preparation area.

How does that sound to others?

So I am seeing this and thinking of adding in a Cleric, Aiming for an 8th lvl Caster.
8th level is a sweet spot for clerics :)
A quick question; Can I be a cleric of an ideal? Trying to sift through and deal with the deities is giving me a headache :/

Another question; I dont actually know what the PFS rules are. can anyone give me a quick, easy link to their rules (if such a thing exists)?

Here is the additional resources page, which tells you what is and isn't legal in PFS. Because looking everything up there can be a pain, you can also just find the things you're planning on using on archives of nethys, which puts a round white symbol to the left of the name of everything that's PFS-legal.

This is excellent! If you make a PFS-legal cleric and MendedWall adapts his fighter for 8th level and PFS rules, we have enough combatants for a 2v2 match, just as soon as we figure out what we're doing with companion creatures and summons.

Well, if there's an ideal medium to use summoned creatures in, pbp is probably it. People have a lot more time to resolve rules and make attacks than at a table-top.

This is very true. Whatever the group decides on this would be fine with me, with the caveat, obviously, that the GM has the final word, and I will abide by whatever that decision is.

I'd just like to cast one more vote for allowing summons and class-based companions to participate freely. I'm still planning on having a character use summoning at some point during the 3 round preparation time, and I'd appreciate it if that didn't cripple that character's side. If the quantity of actions is a pain or unbalances things unrealistically in favor of the casters, we can always change the rules for later rounds.

I do, however, agree that Leadership ought to be excluded for similar reasons to those listed above. I also think we ought to exclude any companion creatures that are not either procured during the preparation time or directly received from a class feature. So things like simulacrums and planar bindings and purchased creatures, unless they can be obtained during the 3 round time in the preparation area.

How does that sound to others?

Well here's my problem with that. It's like allowing creatures, but not allowing them at the same time, which, I think, would create a dubious situation that leans toward favoring one side. I don't want the arena rules to favor one side or the other. One could argue companions are part of a class feature, but one could also argue that summoning is part of a class feature (casting spells). So, for me anyway, I really think we need to decide all, or none. Otherwise it allows for argument of favoritism.

So I am seeing this and thinking of adding in a Cleric, Aiming for an 8th lvl Caster.

8th level is a sweet spot for clerics :)
A quick question; Can I be a cleric of an ideal? Trying to sift through and deal with the deities is giving me a headache :/

Another question; I dont actually know what the PFS rules are. can anyone give me a quick, easy link to their rules (if such a thing exists)?

Goddity is creating an 8th level PFS martial, correct?

If Gobo has an 8th level PFS caster, and I create another of the same milieu, then we could have a 2v2 fight right there...

I'll need some time to throw mine together though. Especially since I believe we are on the cusp of the 1v1 fight starting.

Goddity is creating an 8th level PFS legal caster, and I already have a martial ready.

If Gobo Horde is also making a caster, all we'd need is for you to level up your fighter to level 8 and adjust for PFS rules.

Then we'd be ready for a 2v2 battle, as soon as we get the rules for companion creatures figured out.

Goddity is creating an 8th level PFS legal caster, and I already have a martial ready.

If Gobo Horde is also making a caster, all we'd need is for you to level up your fighter to level 8 and adjust for PFS rules.

Then we'd be ready for a 2v2 battle, as soon as we get the rules for companion creatures figured out.

Good that's a lot easier than making a caster from scratch. :) Everything I used for my fighter was CRB, which, I think, brings it into compliance with PFS? Not sure, as I've never done PFS before. I'll have some time today to look over the PFS rules and make sure though.

Yeah we need to decide what we're doing about companions/summons. At a certain point the illusion of choice is detrimental. Perhaps CMDDM should just come in and say THIS IS THE WAY IT IS BECAUSE I SAID SO!. The end.

Edit: Goddity hasn't registered any 8th level PFS caster on the registration form...?

Edit: Goddity hasn't registered any 8th level PFS caster on the registration form...?

Still working on it. I'll put it up when it's done.

Pretty much everything core is PFS-legal, except for item creation and whatnot.

In terms of companions, the character I have prepared is currently intending to summon a single creature during the preparation time. As for how that is run after it occurs, yeah, I would just like to get some sort of clear ruling from CMDDM. At the very least, I'd like to get the use of non-combat familiars cleared up.

MendedWall12 wrote:

Edit: Goddity hasn't registered any 8th level PFS caster on the registration form...?

Still working on it. I'll put it up when it's done.

Oh! I didn't think you had to be done in order to register. I registered mine long before I was done. I'll just have to level up Terylinlara the exile to 8 in order to bring her in for the PFS 2v2.

Someone should calculate the APL vs CR of these fights, so as to calibrate expectations of baseline assumptions of resource expenditure. :)

Let's rule it this way: you can bring your companion with you for free if it's a class feature. You may only bring one companion, regardless your build. If you gain a companion through a feat, then it counts as an additional teammate. A single, summoned creature counts as a free companion.

Pretty balanced I think. Casters cannot spam the field with summon monsters, martials cannot fill the arena with familiars, animal companions or cohorts. Still you don't screw cavaliers, rangers, driuds, and a plethora of other builds.

It should also be noted that I got the first 2 characters almost ready. Soon I'll open the arena.

Someone should calculate the APL vs CR of these fights, so as to calibrate expectations of baseline assumptions of resource expenditure. :)

Well you are a CR 7 character facing another one. It takes 16000xp to level up. If you spent less than 20% of your resources, then you would level up to 8th before running out of resources. It's a lot.

Let's rule it this way: you can bring your companion with you for free if it's a class feature. You may only bring one companion, regardless your build. If you gain a companion through a feat, then it counts as an additional teammate. A single, summoned creature counts as a free companion.

Pretty balanced I think. Casters cannot spam the field with summon monsters, martials cannot fill the arena with familiars, animal companions or cohorts. Still you don't screw cavaliers, rangers, driuds, and a plethora of other builds.

It should also be noted that I got the first 2 characters almost ready. Soon I'll open the arena.

That is an excellent way of handling it, thank you.

I think it's a good ruling on the companions. If it turns out bad, then we'll find that out soon enough.

I didn't put it up because not only is it not done, but I've barely started. I still don't know what class I'm picking. Once I have the major details I'll register it.

I think it's a good ruling on the companions. If it turns out bad, then we'll find that out soon enough.

Well, even if it results in something ridiculous happening in the arena [cue ominous foreshadowing], it will be important to know whether it's ridiculous in favor of the casters or the martials.

Let's rule it this way: you can bring your companion with you for free if it's a class feature. You may only bring one companion, regardless your build. If you gain a companion through a feat, then it counts as an additional teammate. A single, summoned creature counts as a free companion.

Pretty balanced I think. Casters cannot spam the field with summon monsters, martials cannot fill the arena with familiars, animal companions or cohorts. Still you don't screw cavaliers, rangers, druids, and a plethora of other builds.

It should also be noted that I got the first 2 characters almost ready. Soon I'll open the arena.

Absolutely awesome way to handle it. Thank you CMDDM. I think this is very fair and will give us a good idea of how things might go well or poorly with additions.

Casts Permanent Drumroll in anticipation of the first bout. :P :)

Ok, so I can make an 8th PFS level caster, but due to my lack of expertise in this kind of character, it won't exactly be as optimized as much as someone else could make it. It'll still be good though. I'm okay with that. I'll have fun either way.

In other news, I have now settled on a class. No, I won't tell you what it is. That would be spoilers.

Are we assuming our PFS characters have access to racial boons?

And because I'm full of questions today:
What favoured terrain off the ranger list would the arena be?

Still full of questions:
Are we using full HP at first and half at each other?

Thanks for the linkies, they will help a lot :)
Ill probably build my guy, then cross-reference him to that list and make him legal.
Edit: found out that 2 of my core abilities are PFS legal XD

Question: Can I build a cleric of an ideal instead of a deity?

So I am going to build up 2 characters, a lvl 4 caster (who will be op as heck) and a lvl 8 caster cleric, both PFS legal :)

Thanks for the linkies, they will help a lot :)

Ill probably build my guy, then cross-reference him to that list and make him legal.
Edit: found out that 2 of my core abilities are PFS legal XD

Question: Can I build a cleric of an ideal instead of a deity?

So I am going to build up 2 characters, a lvl 4 caster (who will be op as heck) and a lvl 8 caster cleric, both PFS legal :)

No. That would allow cherry picking for domains. Instead of that, try this list of deities. Choose something PFS legal.

Are we assuming our PFS characters have access to racial boons?

And because I'm full of questions today:
What favoured terrain off the ranger list would the arena be?

Still full of questions:
Are we using full HP at first and half at each other?

Let's say yes.

Thanks. Almost finished.

Can you define master book allowance better. Does that mean all paizo or are you including 3pp?

Can you define master book allowance better. Does that mean all paizo or are you including 3pp?

Every book from Paizo except for mythic material is okay. No 3pp.

Are MendedWall and I all set for the initial duel? Is there anything still needing attention?

The arena is ready and open!

Oh, unholy squiggly one, please accept this offering of elven warrior to your ineffable greatness. Forevermore shall your enemies bicker and be blinded by your ever oozing horror. This unworthy servant asks not for mercy for you cannot spare mercy for ants.

~Amen

I know this should go in the discussion thread, but that isn't connected yet.

DARN IT ALL!!! I really needed that initiative roll to go my way. DANG DICE!!!

:D

Discussion opened.

Hey all, I just wanted to bump this recruitment thread, as we are looking to populate characters for the next few rounds of combat.

Check out the registration sheet and come on down for the fun!!!

Botting the dot

Hmmm. No Inquisitor, no Magus, No Hunter or Investigator...

Typical that all my favorite classes aren't allowed huh?

Still! I think I can make a few characters for this. I'm interested in making some 'Master' characters. Either level 16 or 20, depending on what other people have prepared.

Hmmm. No Inquisitor, no Magus, No Hunter or Investigator...

Typical that all my favorite classes aren't allowed huh?

I understand completely and agree.

I feel that Sleuth investigators really ought to be allowed, as they have no more spellcasting (or extracting) than rogues do.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:

Hmmm. No Inquisitor, no Magus, No Hunter or Investigator...

Typical that all my favorite classes aren't allowed huh?

I understand completely and agree.

I know. But being 6th level casters and 3/4 BAB it's something that confuses me when I have to put them either in casters or martials. They sometimes have enough martial prowess to compete with martials, they sometimes have spells good enough to compete with casters, and sometimes they have both.

Yeah, I get it. I get why you've done it, as the battle is about casters vs martial.

Just, kinda sucks as their my favourite classes.

I like the current definitions and see no reason to change them.