End Of Discussions: An epic fight between martials and casters

Game Master ElMustacho

Stop arguing about power difference between classes and prove it in this arena!


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Have you ever wondered about a class being more powerful than another? Do you agree with the idea of the superiority of magic, or you think that it's just tricks and strange words? You are bored by people saying that X class is better than another?
Stop asking and start giving answers! Either as a spectator or as a player, you'll finally know what mighty power is!
If you want to join, you'll need to prepare a character. There will be 4 kind of fight:
1) Core: Only the material from the core rulebook and the first bestiary is allowed.
2) PRD: Only the material from the prd is allowed.
3) PFS: Only a legal PFS character is allowed.
4) Master: Every book is allowed.
Mythic is disabled in any circumstance.
The battles will be fought at level 4, 8, 12, 16 or 20. If many of the contenders choose a different level, then it will be the fight level.

Rules of combat:
1) Teams are composed by an equal amount of characters.
2) The arena is a cylinder with a radius of 200 foot. It prolongs 200 feet over the sky and 200 feet in the ground. Limits are made of adamantine walls, except for the higher circle, which is just air. There's natural, bright light. You are in the material plane.
3) If you somehow get outside the boundaries, you are considered eliminated until you return into the arena.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes and he's considered eliminated.
5) You have no foreknowledge of any of your opponents. You are informed about the beginning of the fight 3 rounds before the fight starts. Your character doesn't know about this arena until he's informed. You are otherwise ready for adventuring (weapons wielded, spells prepared, class features prepared etc.). You can use these 3 rounds to prepare yourself. You can't exploit a planar time trait during this time. You can't ready an action during this preparation.
6) Standard WBL. In PRD and Master, 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, and 3 or more have no other effect.
7) Custom items are allowed. You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.
8) You can spawn in the arena from 30 feet to 50 feet from the center. You spawn at least 60 feet from every other opponent.
9) The number of free actions is 3 every round.
10) There is a surprise round only if none of your opponents can act in the surprise round. In 1 against 1 there's never a surprise round.
11) A team wins if all of its opponents are eliminated for at least one round.
12) There's not such thing as fair combat. Feel free to push every character to the maximum possible. You are still limited by rules. You may not exploit loopholes or errors in the rules (such as being dead but still able to fight because it doesn't say you can't).
13) Teammates are by default able to recognize other teammates.

Builds must respect this criteria: 15 PB, any race from the bestiaries but Drow Noble. They must still respect the kind of play they belong. That's all. Yes, every other race is fine. Yes, every trait is okay. A kasatha is as good as a venerable, reincarnated samsaran.

When everything is ready, initiative is rolled and the fight starts.

F.A.Q.
What defines a martial in this contest?
A martial in this contest is a class which has his BAB equal to his level. Ninjas, (chained) Monks and Rogues are considered martials.

What defines a caster in this contest?
A caster in this contest is a class which has access to the 9th level spells.

Can I play something else?
No. We are comparing martials and casters. You are in the wrong arena.

You are bad at GMing, that would happen only by mistake.
This is not a question. You are also supposed to be costructive when making arguments.

If roleplaying is more important than rollplaying, why are you doing this?
First, rollplaying and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and you should stop assuming this. Second, we are trying to end discussions here. That's why.

I don't like this arena, what should I do?
Either try to improve it or either ignore it.

Are those rules written in stone?
They are free to be discussed and changed if found wrong or terrible.


Is the kineticist an available option?

I know you said that we must play casters or martials, but I wasn't sure if they counted as a caster, since they technically have 9th level "spells".


bigrig107 wrote:

Is the kineticist an available option?

I know you said that we must play casters or martials, but I wasn't sure if they counted as a caster, since they technically have 9th level "spells".

I'm going to say no. I'm not really sure about the category I should put them into anyway.


It should be noted that a PFS legal character will be a 20 point buy, not a 15.

Also, 3 free actions per round really screws over the martials.

Every arrow shot requires a free action for example. You cannot make a viable archer past 6th level with that limitation.

Then again 3 rounds to prep before you walk in also tosses it towards the casters (the martials will have to guzzle potions or UMD up buffs to be competitive).


Honestly, I want this to be a thing for the sake of doing stuff I normally don't get to do, and trying to prove that martials do in fact still have it, and casters aren't inherently superior to a well-played martial. I vote level 20 because if we're going to do this then there doesn't need to be an arena left when we finish.

I also agree with the free action bit, though. It's really bad for archers and throwing weapons specialists, but casters don't really care. An archer, in particular, can get a lot done at level 20, even without the Arcane Archer PRC. Things DIE when they get full attacked by an archer. Ditto with interest for gunslingers.


I'm definitely interested in preparing a character for this.

The previous thread had an additional rule not mentioned here:

MendedWall12 wrote:
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).

Is this still a restriction, and if so does it include class-based companions such as familiars, animal companions, and eidolons?


drbuzzard wrote:

It should be noted that a PFS legal character will be a 20 point buy, not a 15.

Also, 3 free actions per round really screws over the martials.

Every arrow shot requires a free action for example. You cannot make a viable archer past 6th level with that limitation.

Then again 3 rounds to prep before you walk in also tosses it towards the casters (the martials will have to guzzle potions or UMD up buffs to be competitive).

1) For PFS it will be 20.

2) Arrows don't work that way.
PRD:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

However crossbow mans may find them selves limited. My intent is to block loopholes. Let's say 6 free actions then.
3) Since nobody knows about the existence of this arena, no caster is going to have prepared the best buffs for the fight. Potions, however, are reliable over the course of many days until used. Also, it cost only 8000 gp to get ranks equal to your level on UMD, and it doesn't really screw every build because it's an ioun stone.
Let's say you can take 10 on UMD during the preparation time.
Avoron wrote:

I'm definitely interested in preparing a character for this.

The previous thread had an additional rule not mentioned here:

MendedWall12 wrote:
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
Is this still a restriction, and if so does it include class-based companions such as familiars, animal companions, and eidolons?

Every companion is okay. With Leadership and similar, the cohort must be martial if you are a martial, or a caster if you are a caster. Your cohort cannot bring any other companion, not even by class features. However, they count as teammates and teams must be composed by an equal amount of characters.

A team may declare to summon creatures. Those creatures must be summoned in the preparation time given, unless they are at your disposition for more than one consecutive day. They count as a teammate. Planar binding and variants are ok. Gate is not okay.
For example, if a caster team brings a familiar, a summoned creature and a cohort, then the martial team must have, for example, two animal companions and a planar binding.

Liberty's Edge

I think this is going to come down to starting distance and who wins initiative.


I think drbuzzard's comment about arrows was getting at the fact that a free action gets an archer 1 extra single shot, but a free action gets a caster an extra spell.

At high levels, that means the caster gets a quickend spell, a normal cast spell, and then three more spells.

An archer gets his full attack, and then three more arrows.

An extra arrow or swing with a sword =/= an extra spell.


Quote:
If you somehow get outside the boundaries, you are considered eliminated until you return into the arena.

Not sure I think this is a good idea. If someone leaves, then should just be flat out eliminated. Otherwise a caster can teleport home, buff for a couple rounds, and come back.


JoshB wrote:

I think drbuzzard's comment about arrows was getting at the fact that a free action gets an archer 1 extra single shot, but a free action gets a caster an extra spell.

At high levels, that means the caster gets a quickend spell, a normal cast spell, and then three more spells.

An archer gets his full attack, and then three more arrows.

An extra arrow or swing with a sword =/= an extra spell.

How is a caster going to cast three more spells past standard and quickened?

My concern was for things like reloading as a free action (crossbows, guns) or throwing weapons.

Personally though I'd say that instead of the 3 round buff time, I'd prefer people to just have hours long stuff up before combat, but that is it.


drbuzzard wrote:
Quote:
If you somehow get outside the boundaries, you are considered eliminated until you return into the arena.
Not sure I think this is a good idea. If someone leaves, then should just be flat out eliminated. Otherwise a caster can teleport home, buff for a couple rounds, and come back.

If, let's say, a wizard decides to teleport away, he is probably able to return. During the time he's not in the arena, his absence will surely affect the fight, as the caster team will count one less character. If every other caster dies/is slain/whatever but not able to fight anymore, the fight ends with the martials winners, even if that wizard is still alive. He is in fact eliminated during his absence. If he wanted to be safe, he could just cast emergency force sphere and remain into the arena.


drbuzzard wrote:
JoshB wrote:

I think drbuzzard's comment about arrows was getting at the fact that a free action gets an archer 1 extra single shot, but a free action gets a caster an extra spell.

At high levels, that means the caster gets a quickend spell, a normal cast spell, and then three more spells.

An archer gets his full attack, and then three more arrows.

An extra arrow or swing with a sword =/= an extra spell.

How is a caster going to cast three more spells past standard and quickened?

My concern was for things like reloading as a free action (crossbows, guns) or throwing weapons.

Personally though I'd say that instead of the 3 round buff time, I'd prefer people to just have hours long stuff up before combat, but that is it.

That way you penalize the martials, as they have no time to buff.


Does a synth summoner count as martial? It has full BAB while in eidolon form. And when you said any race from any bestiaries, that doesn't include things with racial HD right? Because I don't think it should.


Goddity wrote:
Does a synth summoner count as martial? It has full BAB while in eidolon form. And when you said any race from any bestiaries, that doesn't include things with racial HD right? Because I don't think it should.

Only the Eidolon has full BAB. Even if they can always stay fused, the summoner isn't a martial. So it doesn't count.

You shouldn't obviously be allowed to play a race with racial HD. Only races without racial HD are allowed.


Quote:
9) The number of free actions is 3 every round.

Sorry, misunderstood what this meant.


Avoron wrote:

Here you go, an 8th level PFS-legal martial:

** spoiler omitted **...

Don't post that here. Hold on to it until we work out who's in which match, and then send it to the GM for checking.


Thanks, deleted. So just so people know, I have a 8th level PFS-legal martial ready for combat.


Thanks for getting this all set up CMDDM!

I might be able to take Terylinlara the exile and just add another level to bring her in for the first team bout, as she is CRB only. I should have her fully complete, including equipment, by Tuesday afternoon. I'll PM her to you then, so you can approve for my bout with Jiggy's Arhena the fabulous.


Since we're getting around to the organization part, can I register a fourth level martial for PRD? It's almost finished. I wouldn't made making an 8th level PFS caster to fight Avoron.

Couple more question: If a martial plays a paladin in team combat, are the paladins allies subject to alignment restrictions? A cleric is assumed to have access to bodies beforehand for create undead right? (If you pay the price and follow the HD limit of course)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You know, it now occurs to me that the 1v1 fight might be a good "pilot" for the arena rules. Kind of a test run.


Yeah, it's hard to get simpler than a fight between a core fighter and a core wizard.

Goddity, that would be fantastic if you could make a caster to join the fight. And if someone else does too, then we could make it a team battle with MendedWall. Jiggy, would you be interested in leveling up your wizard and expanding it to use anything PFS legal?


Goddity wrote:

Since we're getting around to the organization part, can I register a fourth level martial for PRD? It's almost finished. I wouldn't made making an 8th level PFS caster to fight Avoron.

Couple more question: If a martial plays a paladin in team combat, are the paladins allies subject to alignment restrictions? A cleric is assumed to have access to bodies beforehand for create undead right? (If you pay the price and follow the HD limit of course)

Yes, no but consider that smite evil might not be effective, dead bodies are free but you need to pay for the creation and of course you'll have to count an additional number of teammates equal to the number of the creatures you want to bring.


Jiggy wrote:
You know, it now occurs to me that the 1v1 fight might be a good "pilot" for the arena rules. Kind of a test run.

Yeah, I don't mind, at all, being the guinea pigs for this. It will help to establish a good basis for understanding how an arena like this will operate effectively within PbP.

I think I'd like some clarification on what the next bout will be, or are we just leaving it up to those that submit characters?

For example, the listed rules say the bouts are restricted to CRB, PRD, PFS, or no-restrictions, and character levels are 4, 8, 12, 16 or 20. Are we just going to wait and see what kind of characters are submitted to determine which set of rules apply? Or should we actually set up a restrictive tournament guide?

Example:


  • 1st bout, 4th Level PRD Characters only
  • 2nd bout, 4th level PFS
  • 3rd bout, 4th level no restrictions

And so on...

Or is it going to be a more organic affair where the submitted characters dictate what kind of bout it is? The reason I ask, is it will affect my own character creation moving forward, and I'd like to know what I'm restricted to, or not restricted to as the case may be.


I'd just try making characters to match up with what other people have done. I think things are gearing up for an 8th level battle with PFS restrictions, and Goddity mentioned a 4th level PRD martial.


MendedWall12 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
You know, it now occurs to me that the 1v1 fight might be a good "pilot" for the arena rules. Kind of a test run.

Yeah, I don't mind, at all, being the guinea pigs for this. It will help to establish a good basis for understanding how an arena like this will operate effectively within PbP.

I think I'd like some clarification on what the next bout will be, or are we just leaving it up to those that submit characters?

For example, the listed rules say the bouts are restricted to CRB, PRD, PFS, or no-restrictions, and character levels are 4, 8, 12, 16 or 20. Are we just going to wait and see what kind of characters are submitted to determine which set of rules apply? Or should we actually set up a restrictive tournament guide?

Example:


  • 1st bout, 4th Level PRD Characters only
  • 2nd bout, 4th level PFS
  • 3rd bout, 4th level no restrictions

And so on...

Or is it going to be a more organic affair where the submitted characters dictate what kind of bout it is? The reason I ask, is it will affect my own character creation moving forward, and I'd like to know what I'm restricted to, or not restricted to as the case may be.

The limits I gave offer 20 different permutations. I think it's open enough to restrict characters to those rulesets. It should be noted that at each stage (except for not-fullBAB-class-but-still-martial) you either get at least 2 spells level, an extra attack, or your class capstone.


I think that in this thread you should post when you have a character ready, and then when CMDDM feels we have enough for one run, he starts it in gameplay. The gameplay sections could look like this:

CMDDM
states what the match is, restrictions, and who's on which team.

Every player involved says ready as character. PMs sheet to CMDDM for check.

Individual back and forth with CMDDM if there's a problem with a character

CMDDM says match begins.

Each player posts their 3 prep round actions and initiatives in spoilers, to be only viewed by CMDDM and teammates. Also include preferred spawning spot.

CMDDM describes the scene and says who goes first.

Match starts.

The only question from there is if we want to wait for what happens after each turn before making our turns.

I would also like to say that I finished my 4th level PRD martial and am now working on a PFS legal 8th level caster.


DOT


Goddity wrote:
I would also like to say that I finished my 4th level PRD martial and am now working on a PFS legal 8th level caster.

Yikes! I have no idea how you do that so quickly! I must overthink everything.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm pretty sure my wizard's ready now.


MendedWall12 wrote:
Goddity wrote:
I would also like to say that I finished my 4th level PRD martial and am now working on a PFS legal 8th level caster.
Yikes! I have no idea how you do that so quickly! I must overthink everything.

When I say finished, I mean I've worked out my classes, major strategy, everything I need to take to make it work, whether or not it's legal (It is, took 5 tries to get something that is though). I get a few other abilities that I don't know what I'm going to do with yet but they're not important enough to worry that much about. I haven't written the character sheet down, but it'll only take a few minutes since I know what I'm taking. But yes, that was surprisingly quick for me. Having a bunch of illegal classes kind of made it hard to do what I normally would.

I'm also stuck for a name. Stabby Mcslashy is pretty good, but so is Figh Tor. And Captain Awesomepants would be neat.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I just jammed an "H" into "Arena" and called it a day. I'm not sure MendedWall or the GM even noticed.


Can I use crafting skills for basic non magic gear?


Looks like it.

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
7) Custom items are allowed. You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.

Also, can team members interact during the 3 round preparation time? Are they in the same place?


Avoron wrote:

Looks like it.

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
7) Custom items are allowed. You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.
Also, can team members interact during the 3 round preparation time? Are they in the same place?

I was hoping that team members could coordinate before the match. It would suck if we all entered with the exact same build and got beat because we were expecting someone else to cover our one weak spot.


That's important as well, but I was mainly wondering if the characters can buff teammates during the 3 round preparation time.


I don't understand why things like Mounts, Animal Companions, Familiars and Summons count as an additional character, since they are class features and character abilities that are part of the class, unlike things like hired mercenaries and normal animals.

Limiting free actions is also unnecessary, since the rules already forbid the use of obvious loopholes.


Avoron wrote:

Looks like it.

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
7) Custom items are allowed. You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.
Also, can team members interact during the 3 round preparation time? Are they in the same place?

For my own part, as sort of the "grandfather" of the arena idea, I'd say the teams absolutely are in the same antechamber for the three preparation rounds together. Not sure what part of the campaign site that should actually be adjudicated in, but I would back out of participation if the teams couldn't meat and confer before the actual bouts.


Jiggy wrote:
I just jammed an "H" into "Arena" and called it a day. I'm not sure MendedWall or the GM even noticed.

I did not notice. Touche Jiggy, well played. :)

Terylinlara the exile is all but done. I have a PM in to CMDDM regarding one question about creation, but other than that she is complete, and ready to go. I'm wondering if I should submit two versions, the baseline version, and then the version after the buffs she'll be using in the preparation rounds are applied? I just wonder if that will be easier for CMDDM to run with, since for all intents and purposes, that's what Terylinlara will "look" like. Thoughts?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

MendedWall12 wrote:
I'm wondering if I should submit two versions, the baseline version, and then the version after the buffs she'll be using in the preparation rounds are applied? I just wonder if that will be easier for CMDDM to run with, since for all intents and purposes, that's what Terylinlara will "look" like. Thoughts?

Assuming your stats are all in the profile, you can do things like this to reflect your buffs:

AC 25 29

That way it's clear what the base stat is and that you're currently under a buff.


Jiggy wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
I'm wondering if I should submit two versions, the baseline version, and then the version after the buffs she'll be using in the preparation rounds are applied? I just wonder if that will be easier for CMDDM to run with, since for all intents and purposes, that's what Terylinlara will "look" like. Thoughts?

Assuming your stats are all in the profile, you can do things like this to reflect your buffs:

AC 25 29

That way it's clear what the base stat is and that you're currently under a buff.

That would require much more work on my part than just creating two aliases: Terylinlara the exile, and Terylinlara the exile (buffed).

I'm lazy. :) I'll take it under advisement though, I have less time to "play" this afternoon than I had originally thought, so I'll see what I can get accomplished in the amount of time I have. Are we setting a deadline date/time for the buffing rounds/start of the bout? Or just play it by ear?

Dark Archive

This is a thing?


Lemmy wrote:
I don't understand why things like Mounts, Animal Companions, Familiars and Summons count as an additional character, since they are class features and character abilities that are part of the class, unlike things like hired mercenaries and normal animals.

Have to say I agree as that screws out a lot of classes who are built around such things, namely hunter, cavalier, and summoners.


Granted the 3/4 bab, 6th level guys are barred from this. So they'll sit on the sidelines and laugh instead.


MendedWall12 wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Looks like it.

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
7) Custom items are allowed. You have to follow the rules of the kind of fight. You may not duplicate a magic item outside of your kind of fight.
Also, can team members interact during the 3 round preparation time? Are they in the same place?
For my own part, as sort of the "grandfather" of the arena idea, I'd say the teams absolutely are in the same antechamber for the three preparation rounds together. Not sure what part of the campaign site that should actually be adjudicated in, but I would back out of participation if the teams couldn't meat and confer before the actual bouts.

You are placed all together in the *preparation room*. You may describe your characters in maximum 20 words to every other teammate (example: "RAGE LANCE POUNCE BARBARIAN. AM SUPERSTITIOUS, AM WITCH HUNTER, AM SPELLSUNDER CASTERS. AM RAGE CYCLING. AM NOT FLY").

TarkXT wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I don't understand why things like Mounts, Animal Companions, Familiars and Summons count as an additional character, since they are class features and character abilities that are part of the class, unlike things like hired mercenaries and normal animals.
Have to say I agree as that screws out a lot of classes who are built around such things, namely hunter, cavalier, and summoners.

The problem is in the action economy. In a 1 vs 1, bringing a companion means that you are acting twice every round.

For now, leave cavaliers idea. I'm going to place rules for cases like this.

I also noticed the name.


If I might suggest something to move this along.

Pick the first match in the series to start so people can decide what to build.


drbuzzard wrote:

If I might suggest something to move this along.

Pick the first match in the series to start so people can decide what to build.

People are building, I think. It'd be good of having a table of what people have or are currently building, so you could make something that fit with what is already there. (i.e. if everyone has made 4th level core casters, there's less call for more of those.)

The GM should probably set something like that up, so he has control of it.


Yeah, basically the problem is that if everyone is building to a different point, then it will be rather hard to set up matches.

I think setting up an order would be the best way to get things moving.


drbuzzard wrote:

Yeah, basically the problem is that if everyone is building to a different point, then it will be rather hard to set up matches.

I think setting up an order would be the best way to get things moving.

Yeah, that's why I suggested what I did upthread, but didn't get a lot of traction.

Right now I think most people are focusing on the level 8 PRD only. That's my assumption based on what I've been reading.

Perhaps we should just have a "sound off" from everybody on what they are creating?

I'll start. I have my 7th level CRB only fighter for my 1v1 match with Jiggy. I'll be adding a level to her, and probably incorporating one thing from the PRD, so that will make her level 8 PRD only martial.

:)

Sound off!

Edit: Just realized that would be completely weird if my character gets righteously flamed in the 1v1 match and then shows up a level higher in the next bout...? I might have to rethink that. Or of course I could just change the name and have it be her long lost twin sister. That will, of course, also mean that there won't be any surprise for at least one character going into the second bout. :)

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