Iron Will. Being able to roll a will save twice and take the better doesn't do me much good if both of them only have a 20% chance of success. But that is not a combat feat.
And seeing that I don't need to keep a big pool of money in reserve for panache items anymore, I think I'll go ahead and take a cloak of resistance.
Where do I find this errata?
Honestly, ACG was probably the biggest power creep I've ever seen in Pathfinder (though unchained added fuel to the fire). Slashing Grace was always mechanically broken—the only way to fix it was to make it either better or worse, and RAW it was unclear for certain weapons as is. They chose to make it worse? I'm assuming Fencing Grace stays...
Signature Deed was always a very problematic feat (and Divine Protection let a lot of builds dump wisdom to a crazy extent), but I've got a few characters I need to rebuild now if they've changed all that.
***
That said, if they really got rid of pummeling strike's crit feature, that's pretty darn nice—even after the first errata on it, pummeling charge was basically required for any build to be considered "high damage" post-ACG.
.... Gram I would make a page to sohw you how incorrect you are on many of those things considering I know the numbers on them but I will just point to one of them
Slashing Grace.. in no way ...was broken..
And pummeling Style required quite alot to be considered 'high damage' Yes, I have seen your build and it was flawed.. in many away.
And the biggest Power creep was the Core Rule book.
Slashing Grace was *broken* as in nonfunctional, not overpowered—unless you were a Swashbuckler or using a very small subset of the weapons it applied to (hook hand, sickle, dagger, etc.). There's not much that made sense to me about adding dex to damage for weapons that you can't finesse.
Pummeling Style lets high-level unarmed characters get crit ranges of 9-20 or so. That's... very problematic on its own, especially with critical feats or improved multipliers.
Slashing Grace worked just the same as Dervish Dance.. the ability it had was.. it made a weapon normally not finessable.. Finessable.
As it is NOW is actually broken. And weak. It has no indicator that you can use the weapon with dex.
I believe the original wording was "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage."
No mention of using it with dice, or becoming finessable to a non-swash
No that is the errata version.
This however WAS the original
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.
Hrmm it seems you needed a Swash Dip anyway.. Regardless It didnt have the same restrictions on use with other feats/Abilities.. Magi werent boned
I think your wording is the same wording I had?
You may change out feats if they were nerfed from the errata change.
Ah, I would rather we just keep the old feat affects, because its starting to make me simply changing Yvell to be more selfish. Either way at LEAST we can change the feat out. I feel bad for Muga as it was Pretty Thematic for him to parry with his blade or Whatnot instead of Dodge... it doesnt help his AC is pretty low.
Is there any reason why Muga doesn't wear, say, O-yoroi armor?
Various reasons, why do you wear medium armor? Probably because you can still move at 30ft afterward, Two, that is really Really expensive for him.
Even then it would not fix the issue here. His featslot at 6th is mostly wasted for his concept until retraining much later.
Fire forged medium armor is expensive, if I remember correctly. Or at least expensive when I was buying it, and I haven't changed armor since.
Fire Forged Heavy armor is even more expensive. You could have afforded it though. At least before the Upgrade to your weapon.
And the difference between AC 16 and AC 20 isn't going to make any difference against the constant +18 attacks.
Our enemies seem to be balanced such that they fall over in a stiff breeze, but unleash unlimited death when allowed to live.
Well ofcourse.. but you could have a higher AC with Wealth you got. and +18 was not a normal attack.. their damage wasnt too bad but something tells me if they had done like.. power attack a +14 vs a 20 is much better.
Fire-forged is probably not that worth it on heavy armor, sure... (though debatably you can wear a fire-forged chain shirt under regular heavy armor, depending on GM interpretation).
With Perdix crafting you an amulet of natural armor, you could then hit 22 AC for 4,000 gp (2,667 gp if someone in the party can craft armor), which isn't terrible... if you went with Combat Expertise, you could hit 24. (not that that's necessarily worth it all the time, but it's a useful prereq for things).
But yeah... natural attacks hit really hard. The point of AC at higher levels isn't to block opening attacks; it's to block iteratives.
I'm not worrying too much about power. I've made it this far getting carried. :P
No one is going to take Combat Expertise ever unless they get it free or can bypass it or specifically going for maneuvers. Armor doesnt stack at all for properties sadly. That AC/item requires us to have known you and for Muga to ask for help.. notice his demeanor.
The big thing here is Muga is a different type of character and Parry fit that more. Wasting feats are a bad Idea when that is your man form of contribution.
But parry only acts once/round anyway...
Maybe the Improved Sunder? Can you sunder robot limbs? With an adamantine nodachi, that would give a hilarious tactic against fear-immune enemies. (Or Inubrix? There are no rules for how Inubrix works against robots...)
EDIT: Okay, it looks like robots' natural attacks *can* be sundered RAW. Neat.
Yeah, I mostly wanted it for flavor. I'm not terribly concerned with power.
No, you can do none of those things just like it doesnt work against Golems. You CAN sunder the Integrated weapons but that also requires beating thier CMD.
Parry is based on your attack roll rather than static umber which is pretty high for him and ALSO allow you to ATTACK BACK. I can't see how you miss that. Negating an attack that would pretty much hit you.. OR doing it when you know the attack tends to be easier to deflect increase Survivability proactively instead of passively. It also looks cool and is one of the only ways to clash weapons.
As far as the enemies being able to fall over in a stiff breeze, but unleash unlimited death when allowed to live. That is mildly true but doesnt factor rolls making some fights harder or easier.
As far as being carried, not sure if that will happen all that much. I expect people to try their best to contribute.
Ah... I assumed all robot weapons, by default, were integrated. Looks like that might be the case.
With 14 cha, Muga could riposte once per day—after that, the next parry he makes means no more panache, no more ripostes, and no way to regain panache until sleeping. One bonus attack per day isn't a huge deal.
Meanwhile, I finally found the new ACG errata. I've got to say, it looks like the biggest class nerf was to Arcanists. Bolt Aces are pretty hamstrung. They did finally fix Shield Champion (so that it is now proficient with shield bashes). Brawlers can flurry while wearing a shield, which puts them back ahead of unchained monks. The vastly abusable Hunter's tricks system was fixed. Sacred Huntmaster got massively nerfed, and now I need to rebuild my Betraying Blow/Pack Flanking Inquisitor. Spiritualist still lets you add Wisdom to all saves. Spell Warrior was clarified so that its abilities are now usable.
Kensai and Daring Champions both also got hit really hard. Holy cow does the Arcane Deed change hit Magus hard. Sacred Fist also saw a major nerf. Evolved Companion seems a reasonable change.
On feats: Merciless Butchery really did need the nerf. SLASHING GRACE STILL WORKS MOSTLY THE SAME, it just requires a light weapon now, which makes sense anyway. Jabbing Style got a major, major boost, to the point where it's now one of the better styles. Pummeling Charge is now just regular pounce, which is probably good.
Opportune Parry really did need the Signature Deed nerf—because otherwise it's a little too easy to become immune to melee attacks at level 12 with a single feat.
* * *
All in all, you can still get Opportunity Parry and Riposte with a 1-level dip in Swashbuckler, which is not hard to do; they just decided it was a little too powerful to be a single feat.
Oh, also: When we hit level 8, you can take Unexpected Strike and grant it to everyone with your raging song, if you so choose—which is just as useful as the Riposte part of Opportune Parry and Riposte.
And Divine Protection isn't gone entirely—thanks to the ACG errata you can take Steadfast Personality for Cha to Will, Stoic (Local) for Cha to Fort, and a variety of paths for Cha to Reflex; they just broke it up into multiple feats.
One, Cha can be improved with a Headband.. Two There are ways of increasing said pool with feats OR items
As far as Unexpected strike that cant happen at 8th level and still requires he take the rage.
Arcanists didnt get the most nerf Martials did. You were not immune to melee attacks at all. As you still needed to roll HIGHER than your opponent, BEFORE they rolled. Considering you tended toward light armor, you werent a Juggernaut. Most of your statements are false.
You do realize plumes of Panache are 1000 a pop? It's like grabbing a couple pearls of power.
And Divine Protection isn't gone entirely—thanks to the ACG errata you can take Steadfast Personality for Cha to Will, Stoic (Local) for Cha to Fort, and a variety of paths for Cha to Reflex; they just broke it up into multiple feats.
You didnt read the errata well
Divine Protection and Steadfast personality are trash, they are gone. The way to get it is with paladin or Oracle levels.. like before. They made alot of bad calls. Period. If they had changed the prereqs and made it one save it would have been fine.. as it is alot of feats are trash.
Steadfast Personality affects everything I can think of except glitterdust or magic jar.
Plumes of Panache are decent, but you need to swap them out after every battle. They also don't count as having one in your pool, so you need to start with one on your head to take advantage of it like that.
Meanwhile... a focused melee character will usually have a to-hit bonus at least as high as their enemies (and by level 11 when Signature Deed comes into play, they should have a higher hit rate). Since AoOs are always made at full bab, this means you're parrying the majority of attacks (and most iteratives or secondary weapons); add in a few circumstance bonuses and maybe Paired Opportunists, and you're golden.
I just meant that arcanists had the most class abilities directly impact of any one class. Sure, some archetypes got hit pretty hard, but Signature Parry was always an exploit, and Divine Protection was a bonus that just put casters ahead of Martials in saves.
Indeed, it's one free parry/attack attempt per fight. Which is fun enough for me. Power isn't a terrible concern for me. I like having a fun and decent niche. Which I have. Slashy Slashy.
So with the errata burning alot of martial options I plan on either switching to stronger insular feats/options or perhaps going towards PoW options.. because unlike paizo Dreamscarred Press generally knows how to make nice options.
Right now Skald's Vigor seems like the tradeout here. I sadly wont be able to give any of you rerolls.
Err... every "nice" feat in PoW is the result of Dreamscarred combining at least two pre-existing feats into one. What feats are you missing? Most of the errata'd ones wouldn't help you at all...
.....
I must ask.. have you played any of those classes or used any of the PoW stuff? As for the errata, that is blatantly false. The ones mentioned earlier as well as a few others could have greatly assisted Yvell, because he has alot of Cha and the skills in those areas.
PoW gives abilities to do other things than. sit there and full attack.. with feats, eve if you arent in the class those were based on. Just like Tome of Battle. Heck if you wanted monk-like unarmed strikes they have a feat for that too.
With Divine Grace, you don't benefit much from Divine Protection... you can still get Opportune Parry with a single dip in Swashbuckler, but you're also going AC heavy anyway so it might not be worth it.
I've used some of the PoW stuff. You have to hunt, but it's very, very unbalanced in a lot of places. While Dreamscarred did a great job converting Psionics with just a bit of PF-flavored bump, PoW is really nothing like Bo9S. Every PoW class takes enough features to make a full, powerful martial class able to keep pace with any of the core ones, then adds full caster levels and bonus feats on top of that—and some of their PrCs are legitimately game-breaking. It's potentially okay for dips or playing catch-up, but strength-wise, I would argue that every PoW level is a effectively gestalt level.
And yes, I meant "caster level." PoW basically says "you don't like melee? We're going to give you a spell caster class you can play instead, only it's got a full HD and BAB so you can cast your spells with a sword while staying on the front lines." Which might make sense, except that A) even without initiation, most PoW classes are too good, and then they wind up with full caster level progression as well (better than full progression when you include things like Practiced Initiator and Discipline Focus), and B) in a PoW game, balance means you really can't play a regular martial and survive, which means that everyone is stuck playing a spell caster.
(and Ultimate Combat had that monk-unarmed damage feat already, PoW just made it twice as powerful)
Ok. Grammanar, you've apparently been reading the cliff notes version of errata.
A feat that allows you to use your cha mod for ONE save a day is useless. Not worth being called a feat. Not "Ok, I add my Cha for my Reflex save." "I add Cha for my Reflex save against this one fireball today, and that's it." The average adventurer(I do not consider lvl 20 average) gets 5-6 feats other than if their class grants them, so each one of those better do a damn good job of differentiating you from other adventurers of the same class.
On the other hand, PoW is overpowered. It does the job of giving lots of options great. And it's relatively well balanced among itself and other Dreamscarred material. Dreamscarred only campaigns are a lot of fun, between Psionics, Martial, and Akashic, you have a ton of options. It is not so well balanced compared to normal melees.
For both of you I have to place forward.. WHAT are normal melee BESIDES Fighter and Rogue. Because outside of those two and can't see any of the other Martials having an issue with the existence of said classes or abilities.. that they didnt already have with the inclusion of things like.. Oracle, Druid, etc. Save the difference being they could ALSO gain those abilities the PoW classes get.
No... I meant that with the *old* Divine Grace, Yvell doesn't benefit much either. My feeling with PoW content is a general preference to leave it off the table until the DM allows a particular level/quantity/with exceptions etc. of PoW content, because left unregulated it turns into a mess very fast. And it's the one Dreamscarred book I've read that doesn't try to balance with anything, even *itself.*
Please tell me more about how PoW is OP compared to what we have now. Please enlighten me on the prospects of having multiple martial options nerfed and thus limiting what you could do before... Please tell me how this is any different than what I said before.
Paizo doesnt try to balance anything with each other, thats specifically why they made PF, however, they constantly like to take out good options. Options that often werent more powerful than what existed already OR were not for powerful classes outside of outliers like Divine Protection. Which really I've just seen on Oracles and Paladins that switch out Divine Grace for an archteype.
Your argument about balancing within classes is flawed, Your argument about just taking a level in another class is flawed. JUSt because a class exists doesnt mean you need to make them look BETTER by nerfing a good option.
This is much like Courageous Weapon before. You remember what that did right? It gave a Morale Bonus = to Enhancement bonus on the weapon on saves against fear and half that on other morale bonuses. For this to become useful you had to invest heavily into your weapon and hope you get certain spells cast on you or be a class that heavily used Morale bonuses. It now only applies.. to fear. So your weapon bonus.. doesnt apply with any other bonus.. because they are the same type. And when you made your weapon +5, rarely was any other bonus higher than +4... meaning you gained an overall +1-+2 against fear... for paying a ridiculous amount on the weapon, that could have been something else.
Its not hard tto make an "overpowered" character in the game, but it is difficult to make " character who does a few cool things" without having to slog through trapfeats/options or use the same ol' tried and true lines.. like Archery.. or Big Two hander or get pounce, yadda yadda.
Would you like some examples? I have a list of just a few things from PoW so broken they force normal martials out of the game that I keep handy for such discussions.
1. Silver Crane Waltz. It’s not the most broken stance, but it is my favorite example of how most martial stances are effectively 2-3 free feats (that you can change at will!). Since Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes are very useful to any melee character, this really is effectively two feats for free (except that they scale even higher at later levels).
2. This party for comparison. Holy Tactician is a really good archetype; but if you replaced it with Warlord, you’d get roughly the same abilities you have now (with Gambit similar in power to Weal’s Champion, only unlimited, and Warleader similar to your tactician ability but slightly better), lose Divine Grace (but keep +Cha to will saves), but also get level 3 maneuvers, and three extra bonus feats.
3. Combat Precognition (Stalker ability). You’re immune to critical hits. You’re immune to most regular hits. It’s available with a 1-level dip that also gives some other nice gems, including an initiator level that scales with other classes, making it suicide for a melee character to not dip Stalker in any game whose enemies scale for a PoW party.
4. Bladecaster, the PrC that could give anything from 3.5 a run for its money. Combines full caster progression in TWO columns with full BAB and two good saves (which, alone, is better than the Eldritch Knight). Add to that an ability that boosts your caster level higher than your effective level, a trivial way to get fast healing, spell strike, miscellaneous buffs, and a counterspell ability multiple times more powerful than any other class gets (a single Bladecaster can render your whole party immune to spells).
5. Oh, except the Mage Hunter might surpass it. Take all the Magus’s abilities and spells, compress them into 10 levels instead of 20. Add full initiator levels instead of Arcana, but also add an improved Spell Sunder. By level 13, you can make it impossible for any enemies to cast spells. Not effectively impossible; LITERALLY impossible. Nothing in core even approaches this, except maybe a level 14, silenced Tetori, who’s devoted his entire build to achieving the same effect.
6. Deadly Agility. Combines two feats (Slashing Grace, Double Strike); allows dex-to-damage with two feats instead of the usual four, while also being a better version that works with two-handers. This actually has a major impact on game balance; combined with most PoW strikes triggering on hit (further reducing the importance of Str), it means that any strength-based character in a PoW game is automatically and significantly inferior to a sex-based melee character. (And yes, it’s much more economical than dipping Unchained Rogue 3)
7. Discipline Focus. Gives Weapon Specialization with no pre-reqs and a whole family of weapons, and Spell Focus, and Greater Spell Focus, in a single feat. One caveat: only available to initiators.
8. Silver Crane maneuvers. You can heal your whole party out of combat by swatting flies, or in combat by carrying around kittens. This violates the “bag of puppies” test, and is pretty endlessly abusable. In a PoW game, there’s no sensible reason to play a magic healer, when the frontline martials can do it better and *unlimited.*
9. All the other Stalker abilities too. Precocious Step is really, really good, as are Critical Edge, and Monastic Weapon Training, while Phantom Reach plus Binding Ki Throw is an instant mage-killer.
10. Serene Stride. Okay, this one is available to non-initiators (though a Stalker can get it MUCH more easily than a monk), but oh wow does it break combat. Ignoring difficult terrain with a single feat instead of 2-3 (and also being able to walk on water, grease, and caltrops), means you can trivially take away 1/3 of the useful spells in the game at the levels when martials are already far more powerful than casters.
11. Practiced Initiator, because even the traits are unbalanced. Unlike the core or psionic versions, this actually gives higher-level “spells” known.
12. Hawkguard... at level 5, you've got about twice as many bonus feats as an archery ranger, on top of some nice defensive perks.
13. I won’t get into the PoW playtest, but my friends and I have found two separate combos in there that give infinite attacks/round
Also... to use a Courageous weapon... you needed to be a Barbarian 1. Paizo implied that that one was always a typo. Divine Protection they're basically saying was a mistake, because it encouraged people too strongly to dip all their builds into something divine.
Pre-Statement
I do believe PoW is overpowered, but that with a crew that is not dedicated to breaking the game, quite fun and balanced with other Dreamscarred.
So, my statement.
Firstly, I believe that most Pathfinder feats are UP and pointless. I hate having to swim through a sea of situational, pathetic, and broken feats to come to the few useful ones over and over again. I hate having hundreds of feat options, but re-using the same few because they're the only useful ones, or they are required for what I want to be. Feats that combine a series of 2-3 feats that no one takes unless they are prerequisites are a GOOD idea.
That also said, I believe feat chains should DIE IN A FIRE. I don't want my sniper to have to take Point Blank Shot to be able to hit people that are in melee. It's a dead feat that's against my concept and I hate it. Feat chains, except in a few well deserved places (Hi style feats!) are baad. Feat taxes (Hi combat expertise in 90% of builds!), where you have to take useless feats, are even worse. Feats should be special. You should treasure every one, and they should be rewarding.
Secondly, just because they didn't put in ye old "bag of kittens" prevention text, doesn't mean they should be blamed for it. Only a dimwitted GM allows that, and if you have one, the only fun to be had will be breaking the game.
So then you believe it is overpowered...but less so than the base game.
I'll the rest in another post, but have been having comp issues.
Don't forget to level.
Are we checking in somewhere before we level?
Also, probably going to pick up Amplified Rage—if people think Clustered Shots would be helpful, I'll take it, otherwise going with Point-Blank as my next feat.
No we leveled before we even hit this place.
Yes, you should all be Level 7.
Slight delay injury during an event. I shall do what I can.
And thus the big 25 hits.
Sorry for the absence, wife has been in the hospital, will get a post up very soon.
-Posted with Wayfinder
I hope she gets better. Also just in case the other two forgot as well as my self, we are level seven so updating your character would be something to do when you have the time. I myself have to redo some things BECAUSE the site went down.
Which feat was that Grammanar? I haven t heard of one.. unless it was a RTT feat.. and even then,... we all would need it.
I'm not really sure; but it's irrelevant. There are some Teamwork Feats with range, and this definitely isn't one, oops.