Aye, but that would not prevent you from making a knowledge check. You could state you have no idea what it looks like and still wonder about heraldry.
*shrug*
just hoped we may find out more with the 30 threeshold.
Well, if we are not talking about it, there is still that +4 cloak of resistance pilfered from the reaper handles...
Who needs it most?
I think Mel or Turion have the worst saves, Kazador is the most frequent target followed by me.
I think you should keep it Turion, or it should go to Mel. I have a +2 cloak. I don't know about everyone else.
I also have a +2 Cloak.
According to this saves calculation, Mel only has a Ioun stone for a competence bonus.
So yeah, the cloak would help her a big deal!
No more glitterdust blindness :D
Agreed on Mel getting the cloak
Thank you very much, I'll happily take that.
I spent a bunch of money getting the Shadow property on my armor just so I could free up my cloak slot for a Cloak of Resistance. I was hoping for +2, but +4 will be even better -- twice as better!
I wrote a program to check the math and twice as better is correct.
@Mel: The really fun thing is that it's not even Romance per se he's after.
He wants to learn more about the Concordat, but mostly he wants to bond. Been some time now since he left Avinoax, and you're the only other elf around. Which is all the more a matter for him now that he needs to pretend being a human, something you have great experience in :)
But yeah, for lack of a better approach, he choose romance as the path.
(because that best explains his current mental focus on Mel, at least until he understand the underlying issues(home sickness, feeling stranded, wanting something "familiar")).
I was curious how you'd react, to be honest, but figured afterwards I can explain the motivation(also because I will only get to subtely hint at it in-game, probably.)
I don't know that Mel picked up on the homesick aspect, but I definitely got the "Mel is the only other elf around" part of it.
Hehe. Yeah, Avinoax is isolationist elvish, and Túrion was used to be in nature. Now we're in a huge human city. Not even sure if home sickness is the right word, or simply feeling lost sums it up better.
Mel lived abroad for years pretending to be something she is not. It seems to come easily to her.
And before, we were still in wildlands, the sea, travelling cross-country, and basically all of the time, he could be himself. Now he's stuck in a human urban metropolis trying to blend in - I figure thats worth a little character development.
As a note, if you want to add someone to the list of NPCs, don't put them on the sheet called "Index of NPCs"! That one is automatically generated from all the other sheets. If you add them to one of the other sheets -- say, "Bannerhold" -- they'll show up on the overall index.
Oh ho! This Harald Donaldson is not an NPC the GM has brought back -- it's our new player, who has evidently chosen to pick an NPC and promote them to PC!
Interesting choice. Welcome!
@Turion: I think that dynamic of loneliness and not even sure what he actually feels toward Mel is very interesting. I'd love to see that explored, especially in a non-romantic way. PC romances are difficult to make work but exploring his confusion will be really cool.
@Harold: Yes welcome! It's been a long time planning but we finally made it happen. I didn't want to tip our hand immediately by welcoming him after the very first post. ;)
Welcome! Well played on picking the character!
Hej, Harakani / Harold! Nice seeing you again, in a different game :D
@GM: Aye. I figure Nelly will be first to feel trapped here, but she is used to 2-3 days in a settlement and doesn't have to play dress-up.
I'll only explore that aspect (even non-romantic) if Mel is comfortable with it. I'm also not sure how good of a job I will do in properly representing his turmoil, but chances are if we're around too long, he'll find a way to relocate outside the city...grasping for something that feels "normal".
Welcome Harakani / Harold! Glad you could finally join us, I'm sure it's been a long long wait. :)
Haha. Yeah like four months or something.
Thank you :)
When I read through Harold leaped out at me. I think I may have driven Brookside GM crazy with questions and follow-up-questions and follow-up-follow-up questions though. I'm hopeful I can do him justice.
Sorry for the weird post. While I'm hopeful Harold can see through the disguises it seemed safer to assume not; am I right that Kaz is using some sort of illusion and Mel is not?
Other way around. Mel has an illusion while Khaz does not.
Mel does Kazador's disguise in the morning, taking 10 on the check for a 21. If he can aid another on that it's 23. He isn't disguising himself as a different race, class, or age, just as another dwarf, so he probably qualifies for the +5 bonus for minor details only.
Mel does her own disguise, taking 10, +11 for 21, but -2 because she's disguising herself as a human. Her Hat of Disguise gives her a +10 bonus, for a total of 29. After the incident with Alexander she's being careful to put together a mundane disguise first and not rely too heavily on the hat. The seeming ease with which Alexander spotted her disguise and then saw through the magic has made me very reluctant to speak with anyone for long. Bannerhold is not a good place to be an elf right now. She also has Sleeves of Many Garments.
Bannerhold is not a good place to be an elf right now.
*Tormented look*
@Harold: That said, Khaz has glamoured stuff - while that is not obviously magic, it retains all it's properties and weight and stuff.
He's very strong, has slow and steady, has some fighter training, and he added some extra enchantments on top - but it's still a 75 lbs armor with, I think, a -3 ACP, so extended observation may likely still notice that some movements are off or unnatural for someone supposedly wearing regular clothing(though he could simply pretend it's leather armor or so and probably get away with that).
But other than that, he seems mundane. I think it was a topic in discussion a while back with no clear result on what qualities exactly are transferred to the glamoured part.(e.g. does the clothing have to be particulary rigid?) May be wrong though, but probably safest not to dwell on it if not necessary.
By the same Token, the comfort enchantment makes the armor *feel* like normal clothing. And given how he never takes it off, he probably looks quite natural. Plus with his Dex16, -3ACP makes him come across like a totally normal Ded10 person. So...agreed with everything said above. But for the most part I don’t think it will be much of an issue, and am quite happy with the investment.
remains as comfortable as weather-appropriate clothing
It remains as comfortable as clothing to the wearer. But it's still a stone plate, and that does not alter the tactile quality of the stone. :)
(it only has prestidigitation and endure elements as components - creating tactile illusions takes a level 4 spell such as complex illusion. Having the tactile quality permanently altered would increase cost significantly)I think that can easily be remedied by choosing clothing that fits the impressiong. reinforced weather-proof leathers, or something.
But you couldn't have someone touch your silken toga and not figure out something is wrong. (Disguise self for glamered also specifically excludes tactile senses).
But I agree, it mostly will never be an issue, and it IS a great investment(especially hiding it's own aura), that I wish I had considered more closely as well.
Yeah, he's pretty good at bluff. Note: I didn't count the penalties for likelihood if;
* The lie is unlikely –5
* The lie is far-fetched –10
* The lie is impossible –20
because I didn't know how you'd regard them. I figured you or @Brookside GM can give you a bonus instead if they're applicable. I'd certainly understand if "After I do this job I'll definitely go back and get punished" doesn't sound that likely.
Hmm - I guess that raises the issue about having to explain what the bluff rolls are about in order to let people judge likelihood.
Ha-hum -_- GM rolled my Spellcraft for me and got me a 4. A more decent roll would easily have revealed the true nature :P
(But admittedly, the CL was high enough that he would have failed to detect the curse by Taking 10 to check it)
So henceforth, Túrion will be paranoid about cursed items unless he has seen them in use.
+26 bluff at lvl9? Impressive! Haven’t seen your character sheet, but I’ll try to see if I could replicate it.
+12 (trained) + 6 (charisma) +4 (Tiefling alternate racial) +3 (Skill Focus) +1 (Trait) = +26
Did I guess right?
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I find this all highly amusing.
In other news, did you hear? Middle Earth Temporarily Bans Fellowships of More Than Five.
There's some ways to reach there, Kaz-it :D
I'm confident I could manage another +11 in 7 more levels-
(e.g. I'll certainly pick up a Circlet of Persuasion if able-)
But yeah, +26 is certainly impressive.
Oh yeah. Lots of ways to get that. I helped a friend's bard build get +35 bluff at level 7. But he always forgot to lie... Smh...
Turion: I don't remember the exact mechanics but it was actually pretty hard for you to determine what was going on with the cloak without a really good roll. Greater magic aura makes that tough.
Why would the bard need +35 bluff? He should have Glibness at Level 7. Plus 20 bluff for over an hour - yes please...
And yeah, just tangle the Greater-Magic-Aura Carrot I mentioned earlier in front of my nose. Way to go :P
So, henceforth anything will be subjected to identify to grant me the will save, at least - one of the spells I would have had if I could have afforded it :P
To explain that further: I feel entrapped and played, here, after having given that thing to Mel :P
Glibness was an ingredient for that.
Don't worry about the curse. I'm not going to ruin Mel's life.
2 traits, a feat and a racial bonus. It cost.
I should note OOC that Harold's curse may or may not work.
It's a folk-curse. It sounds impressive, but doesn't have a mechanical effect.
Note that Harold believes in it. He believes bees'll attack creatures that smell like dead bees, that gremlins have a great sense of smell and (not unreasonably) target people that smell like dead gremlins, and that undead are attracted to negative energy which is probably resident in remains. Whether they'll actually smell it or it would be masked by the camphor is an interesting question.
Normally he'd back this up with a Bluff to convince someone the curse is powerful, far reaching and magical. In this case he's coming clean on the details (thus the hesitation) because he already feels he owes Mel and just accidentally cursed her.
@Túrion: almost no-one uses identify any more since the rules changed in 3.5 (I think) so that detect magic plus a spellcraft roll was enough. I would've done the same thing with pretty much any wizard I've played.
@Harold: Yeah, just that is not good enough any more now -
I understand that THIS curse will not be detrimental to Mel.
Point is, it COULD have been. There could have been a real curse. What if Túrion had handed her an Amulet of Strangulation?
Túrion failed in protecting his allies from something that he fully feels responsible for. The sky-high int makes it worse because he should have anticipated such a thing might happen.
Turion, I'll try to get the haring set up tonight, eastern US time. It will take a bit.
...
I hope Turion and Nelly are doing ok at the haring. If they get discovered... The Viscount's hatred of elves is not uncommon, one caught 'cheating' at something like that is going to be in a LOT of trouble.Fyrtor shook his head pushing back his worry. No they'll be fine, Turion's no fool, and neither is Nelly. She's a sly one that one....
Aye, thats why I asked you to come along for the haring :D
..."I'll also keep my ears open during the haring tomorrow for anything regarding that Falcon Ring you mentioned - speaking of which, I would prefer if you could find time to attend with me, Fyrtor - if any problems arise, you could probably be very helpful."...
Too late now :) But you nicely dodged that bullet by not replying :)
Oops, I totally missed that. I'd have gone with you if i'd realized.... :/
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No worries, buddy.
I got Dimension Door and Feather Fall prepped :P worst case, Nelly and me go straight up, then decide where to safely land again.
@GM: Are there any specific rules regarding magics? Any screening?
I would not ask in-game - if it is not mentioned to be forbidden there is plausible deniability in that he assumed it was tolerated because nobody mentioned otherwise.
Just asking if there was any mention or hint that it is frowned upon-
Because right now, I would tend to give Nelly Fox's Cunning to make her 7 Int and Heightened Perception to give her +2 Perception. Both should not be obvious.
Depending on how long we sit in the tent(e.g. we already go in when the guy before us starts, then they need to set up a new hare and wait for it to hide) I would also use clairaudience/clairvoyance to track the hare.
(Casting time 10 minutes - But I suppose I'll see how long the rounds are before my turn comes up - I also understand if you would rather I not, since it would break the challenge)
Also, I assume due to the multitude of hares, tracking the TRAIL by scent is night impossible because there are many trails, most of them almost equally fresh - so the hare itself needs to be pinpointed. Is that correct?
Good questions. I was worried about clairaudience/clairvoyance a bit and debating whether to spot-ban it but I forgot it had that casting time. Yeah you'll see from people in front of you, which I'll describe soon, that the hare only takes three or four minutes to hide most times so we don't need to deal with that issue.
Nobody said magic was banned but you can guess it would be deemed against the rules if caught. Nobody looks like they're walking around casting detect magic, though. Most wizards/arcanist, etc are doing nerdier things than a hunting competition.
I had actually written a post for that, during lunch break in work earlier this week. Accidentally closed it down, had no time to re-type just then and was frustrated. Apologies. I'll try and post in ~9 hours or ~18 hours.
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Yeah automatically saving posts that had not been submitted yet is one of many features I would add to this site if I could...
You know what I would really love to do right now?
Sit down, wave a carrot(for graphical comedy effect - or a leaf of lettuce) around, and have the bunny hop right towards me a minute later, then attach a recipe for hare stew on it, and have it hop up on the jury table and allow the judge to pick it up.
Perfectly valid option with Animal Messenger. But not on my spell list :P
I'll post after work, need some time to calculate and check.
Haha. Well the judge does reserve a lot of discretion in how points are awarded. If he had reason to think you had cast a spell on the rabbit, he would probably disqualify you.
Apologies, this week I am on standby duty again, and work plus 3 small kids not only sapped my time yesterday evening, but also shortened the night to less than 4 hours total. I had a full work day today, and very limited mental capacities remaining. I can't promise to post right now, but I'll make sure to do so tomorrow morning if at all possible(in ~12 hours)...I'll also post a few turns you can resolve unless Nelly catches the Hares scent.
No worries at all. Times be odd.
Those at Mel's, are you waiting on something from me? Let's keep the action moving forward there.
Okay, thought experiment: Arcane Trickster with as many sneak attack dice as possible.
Traits: Magical Knack, one other of your choice.
Level 1: Brawler (Snakebite Striker archetype). This gains you 1d6 sneak attack.
Also level 1: VMC Rogue. This will come into play later.
Level 1 feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
The pre-requisites for this feat are "Sneak attack class feature", so you can technically take it at level 1. Due to the wording of the feat -- "Your number of sneak attack dice cannot exceed half your character level (rounded up)" -- it provides you no benefit initially, but there is nothing preventing you from taking it anyway.
Taking it at level 1 is necessitated by the VMC Rogue, which eats your 3rd level feat for Trapfinding.
Levels 2, 3 and 4: Wizard. Admixture school, for the school ability that lets you swap energy types on your attacks a few times per day, so you can deal with pesky energy resistances.
At level 3, your Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat comes online, getting you to 2d6 sneak attack.
Level 5: go into Arcane Trickster. Level 5 feat is open -- Craft Wondrous Item a strong choice.
Level 6: +1d6 sneak attack from AT. You now have 3d6 sneak attack.
Level 7: +1d6 sneak attack from VMC Rogue. You now have 4d6 sneak attack. However, Accomplished Sneak Attacker is going to be a problem starting next level, because you'll start gaining sneak attack dice faster than you can get hit dice, meaning it will be "off line" more often than not.
It's time for that to go. Retrain Accomplished Sneak Attacker to any other feat of your choice. You still meet the pre-requisite 2d6 sneak attack for AT -- one from Snakebite Striker Brawler, the other from VMC rogue -- unless you have an extremely pedantic GM who insists that the AT hit dice cannot count towards the VMC Rogue because that allows them effectively to serve as pre-requisites for themselves. That is not an unreasonable position, but it is definitely a boring one.
So, let us assume that your GM is okay with retraining the feat. You are now level 7, you have 3d6 sneak attack (1d6 snakebite, 1d6 AT, 1d6 VMC rogue) and the cap on your sneak attack dice that Accomplished Sneak Attacker imposed is gone. Time to introduce your bread-and-butter spells.
The first of these is Sense Vitals. It gets you +1d6 sneak attack per 3 caster levels, up to a maximum of 5d6 at level 15. At this level, that nets you +2d6 sneak attack, bringing your total (when Sense Vitals is running) to 5d6.
The tricky part is that it specifies that you must use "a manufactured weapon" to make the attack. Most of the time, that would mean attacking your target's normal AC, which is a comparatively tall order for a mostly-low-BAB PC like this one.
Enter our second bread-and-butter spell: Coin Shot. This spell allows you to throw money at your problems, literally. One casting allows you to throw 3 coins at people for amounts of damage spelled out in the spell, and the attack is resolved against touch AC as long as you're within the first range increment (20 feet). But the really helpful part is that it specifies that the coins are simple thrown weapons. Gold and platinum are further explicitly called out as being treated as masterwork weapons.
Our friend Pedantic GM is probably saying "But they weren't manufactured to be weapons!" And this is true! That's why we have magic to turn them into weapons for us. The whole point of the spell is that you can use coins as weapons. But let us not belabor that point, for Pedantic GM probably didn't let us get this far anyway.
From here on in, things begin to coalesce nicely. At level 8 (CL 7) you gain Greater Invisibility, which will make it much easier to get sneak attacks in. Keep putting ranks into Stealth. It never hurts to have high Stealth on a build like this. You can always qualify for sneak attacks the old-fashioned way, by ducking behind cover of some sort, hiding, and then popping out and zapping them.
I figure if you make it to level 20, your sneak attack dice would look like this:
1d6 - Snakebite Brawler
5d6 - Arcane Trickster
5d6 - Sense Vitals
4d6 - VMC Rogue
By my count that's 15d6 sneak attack. I can't think of any obvious ways to bump that higher.
And hey, by that time you've got spells that would deal ridiculous numbers of damage dice all by themselves anyway. You got access to Disintegrate at level 12. Obviously that won't work with Sense Vitals, but you'd still get to add the rest of your sneak attack dice to it -- at level 12, that would be 7d6 sneak attack plus the damage dice from the spell, so even if they pass their Fortitude save, that would still be 13d6 damage. Or if they fail the save, 31d6. And of course you can, in theory, score a critical hit with Disintegrate, getting it up to 18d6 (passed save, confirmed crit) or 55d6 (failed save, confirmed crit). And that's at level 12.
I played a character similar to this in a Kingmaker campaign -- though I was unaware of Coin Shot, did not use Sense Vitals, and there were some significant build differences (such as using 1 level of Sleepless Detective for 1d6 sneak attack, rather than Snakebite Brawler). But that PC was a ton of fun to play. There's nothing quite like the joy of sneak attacking with Disintegrate. Sadly, I only got level 9 spells in the epilogue, so I never got to sneak attack anyone with Meteor Swarm. But still, good times.
Nice!
I can't see any way to get more raw sneak attack dice...
Precise strike isn't exactly sneak attack, but is pretty close.
Greater Sniper Goggles makes sneak attack easier, and gives a bonus
+2 to the dice, but does not actually increase the number of dice.
Sap Master lets you double the number of sneak attack dice in VERY limited circumstances.
IF (big if) your ST allows you to use Prestigious Spellcaster with Noble Scion (counting Dilettante Studies as an increase in spell level) then in theory taking that from 16->20 would let you (at 20) get +1d6 sneak attack vs Dilettante studies. Given you'd have to take the feat 4 times to keep your CL I question whether it is worth it.
Is there a Prestige class that grants caster level and sneak attack other than Arcane Trickster?
Greater Sniper Goggles are definitely a go-to item, though this specific build imposes its own range limitations. Coin Shot specifies that its attacks are only resolved as touch attacks within the first range increment (20 feet). So unless you don't mind targeting their normal AC, the additional range from the sniper goggles doesn't help much, though the +2 damage per die is excellent for this build.
Feats are a problem with this build, as with any VMC-based build. Giving up half your feats makes those tight. Prestigious Spellcaster is almost definitely out; this build gets 5 feats, total. Six if you're human. And there are better things to do with them. Quicken Spell at higher levels, for one thing.
Also Arcane Blast from the APG is glorious on an Arcane Trickster. It lets you sacrifice a spell to do a little damage. It's not much to write home about for other casters. But because it gives you a ray attack, you can ditch a low-level spell to make a sneak attack. Because the damage is untyped, it ignores energy resistances and immunities. And because it's a SU ability, spell resistance does not apply. It's solid, dependable damage against critters with SR and energy resistances.
Very nice. That is an awesome sneak attack build. :)
I see hitting an opponent to be an issue though. Lots of dipping into poor BaB classes. And yes, there are spells to mitigate that, but spells take slots and actions. Is there a way to slip a level of Kineticist in there? Take Kinetic Blade and your melee attacks will all be vs touch AC (so long as you have an energy blast). That is huge for hitting opponents when you’re BaB is on the low side.
Plus your rogue/mage would use a summonable energy sword. Points for flavor.
Look at it the other way around: this build doesn't dip into low-BAB classes. It's a low-BAB build that dips into a single level of a high-BAB class.
But honestly, hitting touch AC is just not that hard. Which is kind of the point -- it was designed for use by squishy mages for whom melee is a bad idea.
Here are touch AC values from 3,949 creatures:
touchAC | total
--------+------
-1 | 1
0 | 13
1 | 8
2 | 12
3 | 15
4 | 47
5 | 63
6 | 57
7 | 101
8 | 182
9 | 262
10 | 366
11 | 459
12 | 502
13 | 474
14 | 393
15 | 282
16 | 160
17 | 132
18 | 83
19 | 59
20 | 53
21 | 36
22 | 17
23 | 19
24 | 29
25 | 20
26 | 14
27 | 7
28 | 7
29 | 8
30 | 13
31 | 7
32 | 11
33 | 3
34 | 3
35 | 11
36 | 1
37 | 3
38 | 5
39 | 1
40 | 4
41 | 3
43 | 1
47 | 1
48 | 1
Out of all those 3949 creatures, 2955 have a touch AC of 14 or less -- or, to put it another way, 74.8% of all the creatures in the bestiary have touch AC of 14 or less.
If you look at it higher, 3529 out of 3949 (89.3%) have a touch AC of 17 or lower.
This build hits its stride around level 8, at which point it will a BAB of +4 (1 brawler, 3 from low-bab classes). Coin shot treats a gold or platinum coin as masterwork, giving you a +1. With a moderately good DEX -- say, 14 for another +2 -- you're looking at +7.
Then take into account the fact that you're going to be spending most of your combat time invisible, and: "An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)." That gets you up to +9, and reduces their touch AC against your attacks.
That's pretty important. For most creatures, the Dexterity modifier is the primary component of touch AC. Sure, deflection, dodge and size modifiers still apply, but the smallest creatures (who get significant bonuses from their size) tend to have high Dexterity scores, so losing that cuts them down to size.
Basically, by the time you get to mid-levels, a build that targets touch AC is not going to have much trouble hitting. There are absolutely creatures out there that can cause you problems -- monks, nymphs and other creatures who charisma as a deflection bonus for example. But they're not terribly common, and anyway, it's okay to leave space for the GM to throw critters at you who are hard to touch.
That way you can pull out your backup, which is ... other spells! You're only one level behind a full wizard, so you have access to all the spells a wizard would get. By mid-levels, you can probably spare a couple of spell slots on things like useful buff spells or, you know, things that force your opponents to make fortitude saves or similar.