Yes! You guys should be proud of that!
A few words as we begin the New Year and prepare to accept a new player:
You have all been great players for a long time now and it's great playing with you. But I do see one small area to think about this year. It can be easy for the other players to defer to Mel a little more than necessary, maybe because she is the only original party member left from the beginning or maybe because she is very engaged and thorough or maybe just because she posts very frequently. But Mel and I fully agree that all of you are full-fledged party members who have full rights and responsibilities to choose the party's directions and keep play moving (1 post/weekday + 1 post/weekend). I will do my best to maintain spotlight balance as we head into this intrigue-heavy arc so that everyone has something to do to keep them busy but you guys can do your part as well to find ways to engage or come up with harebrained side-schemes even if the current situation doesn't fit your character's crunch or fluff particularly well.
Sound ok? I'm not frustrated with any of you at all. Like I said, you're a great party. Let's just remember Mel is just another player and you've no need to defer to/rely on her any more than you normally would. This isn't Mel's story. It's YOUR story.
Agreed! This is not The Mel Show. It's your story too!
If I was playing a different character then I’d likely be much more active in decision making. It just isn’t how I see Kazador in this situation. But the message is well and warmly received.
I feel kinda like Kazador here. I feel like Fyrtor would tend to degree to others in general unless it's something he's really confident about already. That's how I figure he has such a terrible charisma.
That said now that we have a more solid direction I expect to be more assertive. I've never felt like Mel was running the show, but I'll be sure to help move the story forward. :)
Sure! And we can work together on finding things for everyone to engage with. Kazador could have a side conversation with the Count about the position of the Dwarves in Iustia. Maybe Fyrtor wants to ask about some of the religions in play here? It helps contribute to the overall scene as you're giving your opinions on party plans.
I think it will come organically. At the moment he has zero ideas on how society works. All he knows is his own people and the dregs of human society. But as we start and he gains confidence, I’m sure he’ll come into his own.
If you don't feel like you have anything to contribute to the conversation, or that your PC would not do so, you can still post. One of the strengths of PbP is that you can describe what your character is thinking or doing at any given moment without taking time away from anyone else.
So, for example, you could write a post with no dialogue in which you record your PC's thoughts and feelings about what's going on in the scene.
Similarly, you could describe actions that your character takes even if they don't have a direct effect on what's going on -- you could describe yourself taking a seat and listening intently. Maybe raise a pitcher and your eyebrows in order to offer to pour glasses of water for everyone. And so on.
Basically, even if you don't really feel like saying something, post something. A post -- even one which does not advance the conversation -- still signals that you're engaged and paying attention. Which is much preferable to radio silence that leaves people wondering if you're still there.
Roger that. Will start to do so more often. Did it once for this scene, but as it goes on I do see how it comes across as being very light
Aye. Acknowledged. It's just that often I am still considering a response, and Mel already wrote out a perfect reaction.
As with her analysis, I also had suspicions, but not that elaborate nor did I see a need to present an inferior version just for the sake of stating it.
I did agree to be front and center for the first talk, presenting myself as envoy - but considering my lack of social skills, wanted to keep things 'basic' and closer to the truth than I would be comfortable with, usually, as a player.
I asked Mel about the Magisters because I remembered that she had that conversation with you off the boards, or in PM, and that she may co-create since it's technically her homeland - I just wondered if there was more about it, or if I could simply present my regalia and claim to be a Magister. :)
Uhh, just a question about Psomeira -- is she, you know, alive? And in the city?
I only ask because Psomeira is a bit different than most demigods. Per Golarion lore she's a Skald 13 with 6 mythic tiers (Champion) who grants spells of up to seventh level at the cost of two mythic power per day, and only to followers of hers within a 60 mile radius of her seat of power (Aelyosos in Golarion).
If in this setting she's just a local lass who made the jump to demigod status normally, great. If she's a mythic character who lives in the city, I am suddenly rather nervous. I ran a long-standing mythic campaign. A Skald 13/Champion 6 could probably wipe the floor with us without breaking a sweat.
Maybe. The “problem” with Mythic is action economy. A party like ours couldn’t go down in one round, and we can pack enough bonuses to land a Hit. Therefore, I posit, that we could make said demigod break a sweat. Singular.
Action economy is the biggest thing, yeah, but Mythic Power Attack is no joke. And Mythic Vital Strike is just silly. I built a fighter named Kveldulf Rognisson for a one-shot once who had 20 regular fighter levels and just one mythic tier, and he could Vital Strike for 268 damage per hit on average, without buffs. Crits came in at about ~845, and he had a crit range of 15+. Standing AC of 55, 22 touch, 49 flat, and saves of fort +21, Ref +25, Will +25. And he wasn't heavily optimized.
Now,he was seven levels higher than our hypothetical Psomeira, but he also only had only one tier compared to her six. With that many tiers to play with, I'd expect to be able to kill any of us in at most two normal hits (NOT vital strikes or crits). Túrion -- being rather squishy -- in one.
Good question. No Psomeira is not generally physically present on the material plane anymore.
But fun idea to start throwing mythic enemies at you! That will help me learn mythic better.
Mythic vital strike with bombs is truly crazy, though I understand it doesn't get to multiply ALL the bomb dice, which would be truly nuts.
Yeah...mythic is crazy. If we do face Mythic enemies I do hope that they are worthy of being called Mythic. One thing about this setting I enjoy is that the power levels are more believable than normal pathfinder. If we face anything Mythic, it means we should be doing something very right (or very wrong)
Haha. Did you just say that you're worried about my mythic npcs being worthy of the name? I assure you good sir, you can tell the difference between enemies that I pull from the bestiary and enemies that I build to provide unique challenges. Do you recall a certain character of lower level than you getting over 50 to disarm you, for example? Or maybe you just mean there should be good flavorful reason for them to be mythic, which is of course a great point that I plan to incorporate as well.
And yes, there aren't crazy powerful people running around everywhere, which means that I have to give you different sorts of challenges. Thankfully it will be easier to challenge you with weaker opponents this arc because most of the time the "lose" option of a fight will be the raising of the alarm, not running out of hit points.
Me and my big mouth!
Bill the Farmer. Commoner 20 / Mythic 10. Only left his farm once and regretted it. Never did so again. Many a monster tried to raid his farm. The survivors, likewise, regretted it. Never did so again.
Apropos of fantasy religion and deific mortals, this series of four blog posts by Bret Devereaux make for a very interesting read:
Practical Polytheism, Part 1: Knowledge
Practical Polytheism, Part 2: Practice
Practical Polytheism, Part 3: Polling the Gods
Practical Polytheism, Part : Little Gods and Big People
They're on the long side, so wait till you have some time clear to read them. But they offer a very clear and lucid discussion of how polytheism worked in the ancient worlds -- and it starts with examples from Pathfinder and D&D.
One thing I've been well aware of for a long time is that genuine polytheists routinely venerate more than one deity. Need rain? Call on Jupiter. Stuck door? Cardea, goddess of hinges, can help you with that. I've tried to reflect this with Mel, a bit -- she's made reference several times to offering respect to to all good and neutral deities, and alluded to Sarenrae and Ostara being largely in agreement on basic principles, for example.
Reading these blog posts led me to reflect that the whole concept of religion in this kind of game is polytheism as imagined by monotheists with no direct experience of polytheism. The existence of a pantheon in the game is, most of the time, meaningless: you pick one deity, and can then safely ignore (or despise) all the other deities, because they're not yours. Stay in favor with your one deity, and you're good to go. It's just monotheism all over again.
I was particularly interested in his discussion of orthodoxy versus orthopraxy -- i.e. correct belief versus correct practice. In orthodoxy, you're rewarded by a deity because you believe the right thing. In orthopraxy, you're rewarded by a deity because you propitiated them correctly with a well-performed ritual or offering: the god seriously doesn't care what you believe as long as the goat is properly sacrificed.
Anyway, it was all very interesting. I don't think I'll be changing Mel's role play as a result of this -- she's quite definitely a devout follower of Ostara. Which is to say, basically a monotheist. And that's okay. It fits the game world's cosmology fine, and anyway I've done a whole bunch of thinking about what Ostara's place in the cosmos and overarching goals/doctrine are like. Having done the work to come up with that, I'd rather get to use it.
It does make one wonder though, on how polytheism would have changed with Pathfinder gods. I could very well see a Pathfinder kind of polytheism occurring if the gods rewarded following *their* rules.
Why pray to the god of hinges when the god of lightning can open the door too? A god’s portfolio doesn’t limit what powers they can give. A Cleric of an ice god can make fire spells just the same.
With that in mind, a lay person might “shop around” in the hope someone listens. But if you are the champion of a god, why not stick to one?
First: I could theoretically win Initiative on her - and secondly: She would still need two hits at least, one on Túrion and another on Nelly - while she is a individual creature, we are a package deal.
That said, Mythic is crazy...in many ways, and with a lot of stuff not properly cleared/cleaned up. A recent game I played in that folded was a Wrath of the Righteous campaign and would have replaced Mythic in an interesting way: Picking one 10-Level PRC and getting only the Class Abilities of it at the times you would get the according tiers, plus regular Bonus Feats(instead of Mythic) and +1 ability score increases(instead of +2). I had an interesting build for that, too. :P
On that note: If you are aware of the Pathfinder Kingmaker Computer Game: Wrath of the Righteous will be the next game, with re-imagined Mythic Stuff...I'm curious how they'll tackle that...
Why pray to the god of hinges when the god of lightning can open the door too?
You could absolutely pray to a deity for things outside their portfolio. The question is, are you willing to risk offending the gods in question?
[larger]"Mortal, why do you pester me with such trivial requests?"[/larger] says Jupiter. [larger]"Your fields shall receive less rain this summer. Be glad I do not smite you for your insolence."[/larger]
"I've got one job," says Cardea, goddess of hinges. "It's not glamorous. It's not big. But it's mine. So fine, call up the big man every time your door gets stuck. Get used to it, bub, because I'm going to be making sure that every door you ever touch develops a nasty case of hinge-lock! Have fun being stuck in the outhouse all night! And you just better hope there's never a fire. Or a monster."
Well, that very much depends on how power and portfolio interact.
In many settings, worship is what empowers a god, keeps them divine.
It is their incentive to be known, to act, to care.
A largely niche portfolio may result in a decline of divinity, with many unanswered requests for lack of power, rather than lack of will.
While the big man/lady you devoted your life to basks in the glory of worship of his numerous followers, and can basically outsource throwing minor boons to the minions that flock to serve him.
A matter of "Point of Observation", really, and the nature of a Pantheons Source of Power.
While the big man/lady you devoted your life to basks in the glory of worship ...
Which is another monotheistic framework. In a polytheistic religion like the ancient Romans and Greeks used, the gods didn't really care about "worship" per se. Belief was not in question. Flattery is all well and good, but they didn't need your worship, and it wasn't really worth much to them.
What they cared about was getting paid, in the form of offerings. It's really, really transactional: if you want something from the deity, you have to make an appropriate offering. A libation of wine or oil, a properly sacrificed calf, or similar. Warriors who survived a battle might make a votive offering of thanks by giving their weapon to the god. It's easier to get a new sword than a new life.
Hence why I said, there are different approaches. Offerings is one thing.
But another concept of divinity is that the spark does require worship.
For Romans or Greeks a Pantheon wasn't so much as concept as a fact of life.
Alas, in fantasy, we are not locked into this singular view, and free to explore different concepts.
Including the "fantastic" option of pantheons being degraded or new gods rising thanks to "belief" - one work exploring that was Gailmans American Gods - I only read the book, so no idea if the TV Series lives up to the material.
That said, if you did not KNOW, then it would be safer to do anything needed to make sure stuff worked out.
Year by year, the pharao went and ceremoniously masturbated into the nile.
And year by year, the floods came. Even if someone may have suspected the events not to be causally linked, it was safer to go with the tradition than to break with it and possibly cause disaster.
*shrugs*
There are also concepts of alien divinity, that are only recognizable through pattern, but utterly indifferent to pleas or offerings, yet have influence that can be...directed, in fickle ways. Cue rituals and certain types of magic. :)
The question is really: What is true for this world...could Túrion gain a spark of divinity himself? Ascend to Godhood? Are the gods able to die? Or simply incarnations of their portfolio, with a new bearer simply becoming a different avatar of the same core principles? Can aspects be taken, or granted, or new Gods born?
I admit I did not have time to check on your links, but I think there is enough wiggle room for quite a bit of table variance ;)
Okay, so ... what exactly are we doing with Viscount Turick?
Well the first question is whether or not we want to try to investigate him prior to meeting him. If we are going to do reconicence then that will inform our next moves, if not then we need to decide how we want to approach him.
Reconnaissance sounds good to me. I'd rather know a little more about him before we commit to an approach. Maybe we just go to Bannerhold, find a place to stay, and make some Diplomacy checks to gather information?
That's the easiest first step, but maybe we should also discuss what our possible next steps could be?
Well ... we could hijack a ship and sail due west in hopes of discovering India?
Just in case, if we are to discover an already inhabited continent, could we wait a few more levels? I would like to have Greater Contagion prepared before we make landfall.
Mythic version would be preferable, but some Bubonic Plague will work out either way. :)
Come to think of it, a deadly epidemic would also be a horrible, horrible plan B for preventing a continent-wide war.
Ah yes, the "Fighting for Peace" strategy, in which you destroy the thing you claim to want in order to protect it. Let's call that one "Plan Z" because of the large number of zombies that would likely arise spontaneously following such large-scale horror.
Honestly? I think I'd be perfectly happy planning what to do about Viscount Turick exactly once we know a little more about him.
Are we going to use the portable hole/necklace of adaptation to get Nelly into the city? What will we do with her once we're in the city?
Are we going to look for a standard inn/hotel, or try and rent a house or something? Count Aral didn't answer the question about where in the city to look for discreet lodging.
Is renting a house an option? I know leaseholds were very much in operation during the late middle ages and into the early renaissance, but they also mostly had to do with land, not buildings. The historical period we're in here is a tad blurry. We've got gunpowder and nation-state ideology, but the general level of technology seems more middle ages.
If it's an option, renting a house might be more private -- but it would likely also come with official paperwork to fill out.
Well, it would give us the option of a post-apocalyptic wasteland, after the regular plot runs its course. You know, to keep going. :)
Regarding the next steps: I concur, let us observe a bit and learn more current information and his daily business, then make our move based on that.
@Nelly: I did hope we would manage to level beforehand.
A permanent Reduce Person would only cost 2500 GC and would have been a worthwhile investment for a city-based story arc. She'd still be a wolf, albeit regular-sized and able to pass for a wolf-like dog.
For now, the portable hole/necklace combo seems to make the most sense.
As a player, I would be fine letting her roam the wilderness and picking her up again if we're making a move. But in-character, she would be opposed to leaving my side for long, since it is her duty to protect me.
And while you - the party - now also know about my "failsafe", I'd still feel safer with her closer(that and leaving her behind would still be splitting the party).
Regarding were to stay: I forgot, but which season was it, currently?
It may affect our options, as well.
We could also look for private lodgings, on sub-lease. It was not unusual, either, for prolonged stays(for which inns would have been prohibitively expensive).
Yes you can rent a home.
I do have another couple of options for how to deal with Nelly, but none of them are particularly palatable. I can cast carry companion on Nelly turning her into a stone figurine until I put her on the ground again. I could also cast reduce animal. With the hour per level duration I can keep it up through the day at the cost of a few second level slots.
Renting a home sounds good to me, and we can cross the bridge of how to deal with the Viscount once we know more.
Ah!
I totally missed that the Druid Variant has an hour-based duration...that would be helpful, definitely...
Ok, let's plan on doing that for at least a portion of each day. I will prepare 2 slots with that each day while we are in the city. Also we should probably swap out one of my concoction "slots" to have a backup one. I wish we had a lesser rod of extend spell. That's definitely on my list of wants for the future.
So you picked the "give Nelly a necklace and stick her in an extradimensional space" option but don't want to use it? XD
/me looks up the spell
They made Reduce Animal a third-level spell for rangers? What the heck?
It's second level spell for druids, so they get it at druid level 3 -- but rangers have to wait till ranger level ten just to shrink a willing animal one size category?
That's bonkers. It should be a first level spell for Rangers, so that they'd gain access at ranger level 4.
Simple. We must murder him and via magic assume his identity. It must be done to get rich and powerful avoid war.
There's inherent risks with putting someone in an extradimentional space even if you can breathe. Reduced wold can be made out to be a vicious wolf and can still fight. It costs some slots, but it's not too bad as I can sacrifice them for summon monster in a pinch. All in all it's better when we can get away with it.
Edit: @Kazador lol yep :)
Also personally I think that actually getting into an extradimentional space would be absolutely terrifying. I'm not claustrophobic or anything, but stepping into a bag knowing that you can't open it back up on your own to get out. That is the highest level of trust for whoever you give the bag to...
We picked the "stick someone into an extradimensional space with a necklace" option. Nelly is ONE option.
I would also like additional interpretation on "This hole can be picked up from inside... " - how would that work? Basically creating an undetectable hiding space only limited by air supply?
It also opens additional options.
@Spell Levels: I think the reason is that Hunters Bond without Boon Companion is at -3 Levels, so at Level 10, the Animal Companion of the Ranger gets the Level 7 advancement which often includes a size increase.
Of course, that disregards both Boon Companion and Level 4 Advancements with size increase. I do concur that Level 3 seems unnecessarily harsh.
Don't worry, GM, I'm sure we'll find a use for a portable hole.
Speaking of those "other options" -- do we have a bag of holding in the party at the moment? If so, I would greatly appreciate an in-character briefing on the hazards of combining one of those with a portable hole, so that none of our PCs do so by accident.
Mel's got a handy haversack, which thankfully doesn't interact with a portable hole in any way.
Don't think we have one. I have a haversack. Brolin did as well, but that's gone now.
Ok, do we want to do a group disguise, or try to disguise ourselves individually? Fyrtor I expect should be fairly nondescript, thankfully on his own. Turion feel free to assume Nelly is shrink if that is how you want to bring her into the city.
Hello everyone, I'm Melia Elman! But my friends call me "Mel". I'm from Feldnost. My father, Harold Elman (esquire) has sent me to Bannerhold to do some groundwork for his new commercial venture.
... what? No, we're not nobility! Just landed gentry. That's what "esquire" means, silly: too rich to be peasants, too poor to be nobles. See, my great-great-grandfather Stephen Elman fought in the war. You see? And after Feldnost gave up, he was rewarded with a smallhold in the northern parts, along the shore. So we're moderately prosperous, but we don't have any fancy titles or anything.
Where was I? Oh yes! Dad is interested in trading with ...
Yes, Melia is a rather unusual name for someone of good Iustian stock. What can I say? My mother -- Genevieve Elman -- really liked it. It means "honey" in ... in ... oh damn, pardon me, which one was it? She's mad for old languages and stuff, but I can never keep them straight. So you'd have to ask her.
No, she's not here! Not yet anyway. She's back in Feldnost, same as Dad. Weren't you listening? They sent me ahead to do some groundwork for Dad's new trade. I'm supposed to find us a small house for starters, and then begin looking at warehouses, and talk to some merchants, and maybe even a few nobles, to start looking for potential customers, so that when Mom and Dad show up next spring with the year's clipping, we'll be all set to get started! Isn't it exciting?
Oh, didn't I mention already? We're going to sell wool. And fish. Salted fish. That's it, really. There's not much else back home besides fisherman in Trostan -- that's the closest town to our holdings -- and shepherds scattered aaaaaall over the hills. And of course you never run out of salt if you live by the ocean! So we've got salt fish and wool.
Dad says he thinks there must be a market here, what with the New Model -- they'll need wool for their uniforms! And salt fish keeps well on the trail, they say. Better them than me, I hate salt fish. Blech. Sometimes I think I'd rather eat hay like a horse than salt fish. But I suppose if I were starving, I'd probably be happy for it. You know?
bats eyelashes madly
Melia is young, eager, naive, and blond. I'm planning to use my Hat of Disguise for changing her appearance, and my Sleeves of Many Garments for making her clothing look like local clothing. I'm hoping having been raised in a fairly obscure part of Feldnost will let her pass off any slight accent she may have as "just how they talk back home".
Choosing a name that can be shortened to "Mel" is quite deliberate here, because it's important to respond naturally when someone calls your name. That's why she picked "Mel Elden" when establishing her identity at Brookside; it made it easy to get used to responding to that name because it was the first syllable of her real name, Melira Elenariel.
Thoughts?
Regarding the season: it is currently high summer. It was late spring when the whole adventure began.
Very nice Mel. Now to try to keep up. Well Fyr doesn't fit nicely into any first names that I can come up with. This is what I've got.
Garick Fyrman is a hunter/trapper from a small village near the border with the Bishopric (we should have passed through or near something like that on our way here right?). He usually goes by just his sirname. He's happy to sit a chat, and is a friendly sort. He's come to Bannerhold recently because he'd heard about the New Army and was interested in signing up, but hasn't decided yet. Now's not really the time for his trade (you can only take first during the winter if you want the fur to keep) so now's the Time to travel and learn more.
I figure between chameleon scales and oath of anonymity he can have a fairly convincing alternate persona at least in appearance. His sword will be shrunk and should look like a fine if plain skinning knife. His armor will look like well tanned leather. His clothing otherwise should look fine as it is and he'll still carry his bow, though he won't openly wear any weapons beyond those. The long duration of the spells should make maintaining them not too difficult.
Chameleon scales is a transmutation spell let's you change the color of your skin to another legal option for your race, it says you "suffer no penalty for using disguise to appear as a member of a different race..."
Oath of anonymity is an illusion (glamor) spell that "distorts your voice and subtly alters your body language and the appearance of your gear and any animals you use, whether as companions, mounts, or otherwise. This spell does not make you appear to be a different creature type, nor does it change your apparent height or body type.
This spell provides you with a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to conceal your identity, but not on checks to impersonate anyone in particular. This spell distorts the appearance of your voice, gear, and animals in the same way each time, essentially creating an alternate persona that can be recognized by those who have observed it before."
So basically it's a very limited disguise self, though it lacks any mention of a saving throw to disbelive, probably because it doesn't allow for alterations that are very extensive.
I figure that between the two I should be able to create a reasonably different disguise.
Just in case it's not clear, Mel thinks we should look for a house in either the merchant district or the market district, and wants to know what the rest of you think. There are advantages and disadvantages either way.
We're especially waiting to hear from Turion.
Aye, I was afraid you were :)
Apologies for taking my time. I'll try and get something up this evening.
The situation is...difficult :)
On one hand, I did not want to metagame and specifically prepare for this arc, before learning about what would be expected from us in-game.
On the other hand, I also don't want to cause problems for us as a party by not being able to help/contribute.
One thing that I may need a ruling on would be asking Mel for help.
Clearly, acting in accordance to the disguise given is more than just being disguised - but at the same time, she should be quite adept in helping Túrion disguise his features.
In other words: I don't expect to get her full bonus if she helps me 'dress up', but I think it should also be worth more than a +2 on my dismal disguise score.
Otherwise it may be easier to stuff Túrion into the Portable Hole and have a reduced Nelly tag along.
Then simply use the Hole like a Pokeball if problems arise.
I did state I would have liked to do the side-quest with the Dwarfes in hopes of gaining enough XP to level and address the needs of the upcoming story arc(such as investing a couple points into disguise, something I meant to learn from Mel but never had a chance to).
Otherwise I'll have to tag along somehow - and there's the crux of the problem. A socially adept character in a battle situation can be carried by more specialised combat-heavy characters. The opposite is not as true - and I wouldn't want to cause problems by sticking out like a sore thumb.
Edit: Addendum: It doesn't help that most spells that would somehow help(like Cultural Adaptation) have durations a bit longer than an hour - meaning it cannot be assumed to be "always on" during a typical day.
Edit 2: Addendum 2: For moments of close scrutiny, there's always the option of Alter Self. It only lasts a couple minutes, but it's not a "disguise" but an actual change. If they scan for magic at the entrance, we are in trouble anyway, but if I want to enter the city as a human peasant, then I could-
(that is, spend magic for security checks, relay on mundane disguise with Mels help for everyday business).
Heck, I could Beastshape into a dog and pee at the guards leg if he holds us up too long :P