In most cultures, the defendants spoke for themselves. As best I can tell, the right to be provided with legal counsel was a relatively recent innovation that only began about a hundred years ago, and the right to hire your own legal counsel didn't exist in England until 1830 or so.
Does anyone have a reference for the legal system in Brevoy?
I think you are correct. We tend to think from a modern Western viewpoint. Justice was a quite speedy affair through much of history.
Erhm... no not really. It's pretty much whatever the regent/sword lord says goes...
River Kingdoms has laws, though, six of em. Just not sure if we in character would know them, though.
Kams is from Galt, where trials are often too fast, too perfuntory, and end most often end with the guillotine. I suppose he is used to a french revolutionary style of court system, or at least that's what I take from reading regarding those lands. They had their own Voltaire, though one somewhat more blood-thirsty, with the anticipated results. Of course that was around the same time as the American Revolution, where thirty some of our fifty some founding fathers were lawyers by training or profession.
BTW, ancient Greece and Rome had "ask a friend" orators to aid in self-pleadings. Eventually they became professional legal advocates, for one side or another. Plus, many of these were paid orators, so the criminal attorney has been around for some time, though in form they have come and gone from the spotlight of history a time or two. Drat those Dark Ages.
Interesting note, I think it was the Catholic Church that brought back the practice of professional legate counsels.
Trials may have been speedy, judgement swift, penalties harsh, but coucilors have been around since sometime after Hammurabi put out a code that others could profit from "advocating" upon, whether pro or con. The right to provided council is relatively new; the option to seek out or ask for such council, much much older.
Sorry folks, dual majored in History and Anthropology, minored in English Lit, with the goal of being an Archaeologist. Was forced to leave that career due to health issues. Later studied to be a Paralegal. Left that profession because I can't stand most attorneys.
Host of career paths since then have left me pretty much a scholar of the human condition. Suffice it to say my head is full of relatively useless information.
As to the River Freedoms, Kams is familiar with them as he came through those lands, losing his father and sister therein.
Nothing to apologize for, I don't mind learning a bit of history :)
I was aware of the greek/roman orators, but hadn't heard of the angle with the cathoic church promoting professional lawyers or the tie-in to Hammurabi's code of laws. Neat stuff!
And I thought I was bad having majored in philosophy, humanities, English lit and finally obtaining a degree in Poly Sci over 10 years...
I meant mechanically. Knowing the laws of the river kingdoms is a Local check, no? I know my Sorc does not have that skill trained.
I am not trying to be difficult, but if we are going to RP this trial, it's going to set a precedent for how we deal with folk in the future. Because according to our charter, we're essentially just authorized to kill these guys, not to set up our own system of laws to judge them. We're supposed to be an extension of Brevoy in this...
So yes, it is a difficult question, and when Tityanna has stopped nursing her crazy fey moment with the hunky blacksmith, she'll want to make sure everything is "fair" and that we're not robbing people of their lives unduly.
Don't get me wrong, she's not a crazy save everyone hippy. I recall her saying that any who have raped or murdered are to be executed because they are a threat to the community, and she will stand by that.
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Stephanus is uncomfortable with the role of handing down sentences outside the heat of combat. His personality is such that he will avoid any role but that of witness in this trial. He'll do what his companions recommend, though with reluctance.
He left the empire to lose himself in the wilds, disillusioned with the society of man.
And he is also not an adherent of Erastil, or any other active deity. But he bows to the authority Erastil has with his companions and with rural communities in general. He views this whole exercise as a chance to observe and record.
Perhaps he will play the role of court scribe.
I don't have any sources that directly refer to the legal system of Brevoy. Either religious or secular. Being as how it's a straight monarchy, I'd say jury based trials aren't the standard, but that each lord (or person appointed by a lord) would act as the magistrate or arbiter in most situations if the crime occurred on their land.
Since the charter grants its holders the authority to protect and administer the law within the region being explored, that would essentially give each of you the powers of an appointed magistrate and the right to determine guilt and punishment as you see fit.
Being on the frontier and based on a broad interpretation of the charter, how you determine to use your magisterial powers or go about determination of guilt is fully up to you, just like if you were a major House Lord.
The charter does use the term 'unrepentant' banditry, so to simply execute them on the spot if they've surrendered might be frowned upon, but not necessarily outside your authority. How you determine a person is unrepentant or not is completely up to you as the charter bearers.
If you wish to take the settlers opinions into account, you already know some are unhappy with the often high handed or skewed justice that some of the nobility practice in Brevoy. However, they're also far from being 'peace and forgiveness for all no matter the crime' types, especially as they try to protect families or friends in a dangerous new environment.
Overall, there's no set way you have to deal with the bandits. It's very much up to the party and any precedents you would like to establish.
If we want to RP the interrogation, we should probably jump back to yesterday. It almost certainly would have been done right after they were captured; we'd pump them for tactically useful information of immediate importance like the latest news on Kessel and her camp and followers. Longer-term intelligence gathering could focus on specific people and personalities/conflicts within the camp, the bandits's logistics, and the men's individual backgrounds. We'll probably also want to determine if any of the bandits have experience in any particular profession (aside from banditry).
I'm okay doing a 'flashback' to just after the battle, while the settlers are arriving at Oleg's.
I'd also offer up the idea of using the trial as an interrogation for each man. Bringing each of them out one at a time, you could use the prisoners willingness and honesty when answering your questions to help decide their fate as well as learn some of the background info you might be looking for. Either way is fine with me.
I second this approach. It gives everyone the opportunity to ask questions and offer comments. If we question the bridge prisoners first, as a formality, we will have that testimony to use as a litmus test against the others.
Technically, Kams was out scouting, so if we do a flashback, I'm fine with it, but Kams will not be asking questions or offering comment to verdicts.
Ah bummer. Dunno if Tityanna would have been well enough in either instance to participate. After the bridge she was nearly dead, and nature magics to a fey blooded I RPed as her being high...
Ah well. Not like I was aiming for leader position anyway. Meta wise, it should be the paladin that gets that spot. He's nigh incorruptable and the only one that'll ever be able to survive an assassin toe to toe. Unless the assassin is one of those magical non evil aligned ones from Serpent Skull. Coz assassins are not Evil... apparently.
I should amend my post to state I was seconding the DM's option of using the trial as the interrogation. Sorry if that led to confusion Tityanna.
No problem here, I'm fine with a combined trial/interrogation if it makes for a better story.
Just an FYI all, I've got to be at a staff retreat for work over the next couple of days. I likely won't be able to post much, or at all, until Wednesday afternoon when I get back.
Boo, real life is no fun!
Just so ya'll know, Tityanna's little proposal surprised me, too, and I'm writing her.
Councilor seat for her, I think. Definitely not hard enough to be a ruler.
Heh. I love it when my characters surprise me. I find it to be one of the most enjoyable parts of writing fiction :)
FYI, I'm scheduled for a PRK surgery tomorrow and the recovery instructions say I should avoid 'visually intensive activities' like computer use. Depending on how everything goes I might be away from the forums for a few days or I might not miss a beat...
Yeah, i'm reading it, i just had some RL problems over the weekend that have been occupying. Meant to get back to Donal about some other stuff, but just... lost the ability to do so, really.
I am here as well. Just havent posted because of a combination of being super busy and also because Aliana is more of an observer in the current proceedings, content to let Thad and Kams question the bandits.
Hmmm, wondering if I should continue with Donal at this point. seems pretty heated in the land where I shouldn't be reading too closely because of Meta.
Tityanna: Either way is fine with me. If you choose to go ahead, let's just spoiler the conversation so it doesn't break up the other flow as much.
Ah, I generally try to avoid Meta at all costs. Which has lead to some screw ups earlier in game with Thad and whether or not he was coming back with the settlers.
but umm, yeah. sure. just gotta.... think of words and things...
*grins* Can't wait to get my new tower shield. I've never been able to make a Sorc even remotely capable of carrying one.
*glee* :D
Though it may appear so, Kams is not actually feeling bloodthirsty towards killing any of the men, not now at least. In the heat of battle maybe, but not now. He knows first hand how impersonal execution can be, having fled Galt, and knows how easy it became for leaders to end the lives of the people; they didn't dirty their hands to do it. Kams never wants to become so callous about "civic justice." If Kams ends a man's life, he wants to know it was done because it was right, and that it was done by someone willing to carry that burden, all for the sake of justice and the community.
Yeah, I picked up on that. Just giving some perspective to how Thad sees it... he doesn't have the benefit of reading the italic text ;)
"Young Jorge never could ride a horse."
I was reading through some of the older posts and came across this. Did we forget one of the bandits, or did he change is name...?
It looks like I had that one marked as dead and he should have been only stunned. My fault. He would fall more into the camp of Cal, Dell and Grubby and certainly would take the oath and renounce banditry. Unless there are objections, I'm happy to just say that he was successfully tried with the others.
OK, no objections here.
On the 'Others' heading for the NPCs in the campaign, can you add Kesten and armsmen who were at Oleg's when we arrived?
Quite cool, DM Tareth. I continue to be awed.
Woohoo, congratulations all.
HP roll:
okay guys, I am going to put this stuff to a vote. Druid is not a healer, paladin is a post battle healer and should be keeping himself going (though with an archer build, not quite so pertinent...)
Seems like we're going against some necromancers, so a dip for a level of Life Oracle might be appropriate. But since this impacts overall effectiveness of a sorc (whose spell progression is already butt) I will put it to you.
I'd say stick with your vision of the character. If oracle fits it particularly well, go for it... but don't do it just so we have more healing on hand. I don't mind a somewhat grittier game where healing is at a premium and from everything I've seen so far our DM is entirely capable of balancing encounters so that they keep us on our toes without necessarily making us pay a 'healing tax'.
A lot of my gaming experience has come from systems with no concept of 'level appropriate encounters' where there was no assumption that fighting was a valid way to get through an encounter/situation. I've seen D&D/Pathfinder games work out OK without dedicated healers, and I have no problem facing the wilderness IC with the knowledge that long term/crippling injuries are possible. That said, if other people aren't into that kind of game then I'm certainly not against a dip into Life Oracle.
Ah, believe me, it's not just for healing. I rarely do anything for mechanics. Hence why I typically build sub par bards with full points in skills rarely ever even used in game, and clerics who can't fight. Tityanna is still young enough, and formerly so sheltered that she is still looking for a direction to go in. She is getting the inkling that her direction should be "oppose these really terrible things that would do this to a person."
Based on the fluff on that talisman being destroyed I am thinking Deaf curse.
I can see the multiclassing sorceror/oracle working well.
With a wand of CLW we should be fine with bardic and druidic healing.
I ran a game this afternoon, and I don't know if I will get a post up appropriate for a multiclassing experience, especially as an oracle.
Look to have it up soon, however. :)
Hp roll level 2
Animal companion 3rd HD
haha, well, ain't that just my luck.
You did better than Tuney at least.
Maybe you can reference the spirit of our previous oracle and his presence in dreams etc. Zavac the scarred had a short but memorable impact.
I gave Tuney skill focus perception to get his perception to +16. I thought of alertness, but does a bird need to sense motive?
Hey all, it looks like we may have lost Stephanus. I've not received a response via PM and he's not posted for a few weeks. I'm happy to continue with just five to give him more time or we could recruit for one more. Let me know if you have a preference.
Am I also correct in assuming you are riding out for the bandit camp as soon as supplies and mounts are ready? If that's the case, I'll plan to bump the main storyline along either tomorrow or Friday unless there's other RP people are engaged in.
Let's do five for now.
Sorry for the long delay in posting, I'd meant to do more with RPing Thad's emerging powers and having an IC conversation with Ursula but various family and work issues left me with very little time for writing. Tityannia's situation certainly merits some inter-party RP as well, and I should be able to get something written in the next day or two.
With both Zavac and Stephanus out, I'd prefer to recruit a replacement relatively soon but there's certainly no hurry. And yes, my intention was to ride out as soon as possible.
I gave Tuney skill focus perception to get his perception to +16. I thought of alertness, but does a bird need to sense motive?
The impacts of rabbits on political affairs are well known, and you never know when a seemingly helpless rabbit that you're planning on eating for lunch will turn the tables on you. EVERYONE needs sense motive!
The link to the map didn't work for me, "Sorry, that page was not found."
I'll give it a try via flickr for the map. The link on the campaign info page is updated or you can view it HERE. Let me know if it still doesn't work.