Hey guys, sorry for the absence.
So I have two quick questions for you all –
1. At this point, who’s still interested in continuing the game?
2. If you’re not sure what you’re up for, but still would like it to continue, what can be done to improve things so that you have fun if it hasn’t been fun lately?
I know I have a tendency to do a lot of writing and that can be an issue (as well as other things I've been doing as a GM) but I’m willing to do what I can to try to adjust things and try to improve the game if people have any further suggestions, and if you guys are still up for continuing.
Well, that’s pretty much it. If you guys let me know what you think, that’d be cool.
Thanks!
I am still interested in continuing.
Improvements, I feel are necessary. This is not an attack on the GM but in answer to his question on how to improve the game as we move forward.
* Any NPC who is a sworn ally provides us with all relevant/pertinent/correct information that we need. They are meant to be support and a resource centre, so to speak. We seem to roll great DIPLO even after it is established they are friendly/allies, but we do not get the full picture via the answers provided by the npc.
* In the same vein: We are given a map or a full description of the places we are meant to go into/scout, if it's already been established in game that an NPC allied to us (or we have turned them 'friendly' due to great DIPLO rolls) has such extensive knowledge.
* One mystery at at time would be easier to undertake and solve. Multiple mysteries confuse things and cause havoc.
* The GM being more free with the storyline. That is, if one or all of us do not perform as hoped/expected IC, then the GM can still turn/move the storyline/game forward without recrimination of what hasn't been done or how it should have been done -- everyone has different ideas on how to go about resolving an IC problem. PCs should not be penalised if they veer from the GM's preferred/expected course of action.
* No micromanaging. Especially if we're already allied to someone, I don't see why it is necessary to roll DIPLO and run dialogue streams when purchasing items from allies. If we are bargaining, it should only be a set of rolls back and forth ... Not multiple postings of rp. I can understand if we're in a foreign land and we don't know the merchants. But in Beacon, we should be able to get what we want if it is available because the townsfolk know we work for the Regent.
* Waiting in game for a situation/social rp to be resolved before moving on. I personally am beyond exasperated with the amount of retcon that goes on. It makes things harder to follow, especially if a retcon changes something IC. Waiting an extra day for someone to be free to post and finalise an important event is better than pushing the game forward and then people floundering in how to resolve the advancement. If a player hasn't posted in days and has not given reason for their disappearance, then sure, move the game forward. But if we must wait for someone to wake up and have time to post and it takes a day longer? I don't see a problem in waiting a day or two maximum.
* From the beginning, this game was meant to be "low magic". That's why I was drawn to playing it. But I quickly learned that it is "low magic" for the PCs, but not so much for the NPCs. I think that's unfair and unappealing. "Low magic" to me means maybe one or two casters over a long period of time in game (and then low level magic -- some healing, some defensive spells etc) -- Not every time we meet an enemy their leader is a super-powerful evil caster. I was hoping brawn and strategy/cunning would be the way to go in this adventure. Not trying to survive the magic attacks of the enemy with little but physical might and non-magical weapons (for the most part).
* Acrobatics should be left as intended in the original rules of action/movement. I find the new rules a little unnecessary and make the game harder -- because people are trying to understand the GM's changes. And following this: The only ones to benefit by any GM rulings, are the gunslingers, and honestly -- most of us don't use guns because of the time it takes to load and reload, and it is not in keeping with character. And I really don't like guns in these games -- I prefer bows, hammers and swords. But I'm trying to work with guns as they seem to be the preferred choice of every enemy we face, whether on land or sea.
* This is for everyone: if you're not going to be on the board for an extended period (for whatever reason), then say so on the discussion board. It gives people the chance to work around you and figure out time frames. Even if you can't post, jot down in point form on the discussion board what you see your character doing while you are busy in RL.
I need to hear the GM's response to the issues raised by Tai. I agree with all of them, and I am willing to also continue if such changes are made.
* The GM being more free with the storyline. That is, if one or all of us do not perform as hoped/expected IC, then the GM can still turn/move the storyline/game forward without recrimination of what hasn't been done or how it should have been done -- everyone has different ideas on how to go about resolving an IC problem. PCs should not be penalised if they veer from the GM's preferred/expected course of action.* No micromanaging. Especially if we're already allied to someone, I don't see why it is necessary to roll DIPLO and run dialogue streams when purchasing items from allies. If we are bargaining, it should only be a set of rolls back and forth ... Not multiple postings of rp. I can understand if we're in a foreign land and we don't know the merchants. But in Beacon, we should be able to get what we want if it is available because the townsfolk know we work for the Regent.
* From the beginning, this game was meant to be "low magic". That's why I was drawn to playing it. But I quickly learned that it is "low magic" for the PCs, but not so much for the NPCs. I think that's unfair and unappealing. "Low magic" to me means maybe one or two casters over a long period of time in game (and then low level magic -- some healing, some defensive spells etc) -- Not every time we meet an enemy their leader is a super-powerful evil caster. I was hoping brawn and strategy/cunning would be the way to go in this adventure. Not trying to survive the magic attacks of the enemy with little but physical might and non-magical weapons (for the most part).
* And following this: The only ones to benefit by any GM rulings, are the gunslingers, and honestly -- most of us don't use guns because of the time it takes to load and reload, and it is not in keeping with character. And I really don't like guns in these games -- I prefer bows, hammers and swords. But I'm trying to work with guns as they seem to be the preferred choice of every enemy we face, whether on land or sea.
For me, thsese are the dealbreaker points, and I could not have put them more clearly than Taissa.
One last is a pet peeve of mine, but I am under the impression it stems from Dain's good will and attempts at keeping us on track (along the lines of the first point I evidenced above) - it seems every NPC we meet in the game knows more stuff than we do, and is able to establish lines of reasoning that sometimes are nothing shorter than brilliant. In my opinion, if we don't get it, we don't get it - better to suffer the consequences, but still feel it is our game, instead of being spoonfed.
I know I'm already out of it, and I completely understand if Dain or anybody else doesn't want me to comment any more (as I no longer have a horse in this race, so to speak, and there's noting more irritating than meddling commentary from an ex-player), but I'd add that thing above to the pet peeves too. The NPCs frequently seem to be used as vehicles to get across the stuff that Dain (apparently) feels the PCs/players aren't understanding, such as White Fang's 'insights' and so forth.
Like Polux says, I'm sure Dain sees this as helping out, but from a player perspective it's maddening. If the plot is such that players aren't figure it out on their own: so be it, but to have NPCs explaining it to them was immensely off-putting to me as a player. All of that ties into the feeling I had that I wasn't playing, but instead fulfilling the story role that Dain had in mind-- where the PCs needed to make certain connections in order to play the story he had envisioned, so if the players didn't go ahead and state those, he used NPCs to drive home the information.
I don't mean any of this to come off as a personal attack. I have no hard feelings, and I've communicated privately to Dain that I think he has many strong points as a GM, but I'll reiterate that publicly: he's a marvelously invested storyteller, he writes well, and he has a dedication to RP that's rare in a lot of games and among a lot of GMs. I sincerely hope you guys can iron something out that works for all of you.
Anyway, from the perspective of an ex-player, +1 to all of Taissa's suggestions.
One more thing I'll add in publicly is that when every NPC feels like an important character due to the level of narrative attention they are given, it can create the illusion that they are more important to the story than they are. Back when we were dealing with Amurath Khan, I was almost positive that we were leading up to a side-quest from him; in retrospect it seems like that whole scene was only to give us some further exposition on the plague, etc. Conversely, since we've been in Beacon there have been numerous exchanges with NPCs that all seem Important in their own right, even if the PCs are doing nothing more complex than buying basic gear.
I think I get what Dain is trying to do with those (I don't want to put words in his mouth), which is to create the feel of a fully rendered world, and to put in story seeds that players can pursue-- the option for many many sidequests, etc. However, speaking as a player, having that many options to keep track of can be overwhelming: an overabundance of choice that makes it harder to sort out collectively what the party should be focusing on right then.
Sorry to continue to linger on and offer my possibly unwanted opinions. I wish the game, and all of you, nothing but the best.
Sorry for the long response here – I read over the issues; I’ll do my best to correct anything and everything if possible, but some of your concerns left me confused. I wrote places where I don’t understand what you meant – could you guys clarify them?
Any NPC who is a sworn ally provides us with all relevant/pertinent/correct information that we need. They are meant to be support and a resource centre, so to speak. We seem to roll great DIPLO even after it is established they are friendly/allies, but we do not get the full picture via the answers provided by the npc.
I’ve done my best with that so far, I thought. For example, you guys don’t have to roll any Diplomacy Checks with any allies that I know of. At least, I can’t recall asking you to do so with people like the Regent; Captain Dodger and his crew; Snaga; Amun-ta; Vick – none of them needed Diplomacy checks.
What exactly are you referring to via these checks, Taissa? I’m just confused as to who you mean is all as I don't normally ask for them regarding allies.
* In the same vein: We are given a map or a full description of the places we are meant to go into/scout, if it's already been established in game that an NPC allied to us (or we have turned them 'friendly' due to great DIPLO rolls) has such extensive knowledge.
I do feel bad about this. My biggest problem here is that I am not a good artist. Creating detailed maps for me takes hours of time – writing six or seven pages only takes about an hour of time at most. Because I work 2 jobs and work 6 days a week with alternating shift schedules I’m honestly not able to give as much attention to maps as I’d like to.
I can put more time into maps, but I’m afraid that will slow down the game quiet a bit. If that’s what you guys prefer, I can do it, but I ask only for patience regarding maps.
* One mystery at at time would be easier to undertake and solve. Multiple mysteries confuse things and cause havoc.
* The GM being more free with the storyline. That is, if one or all of us do not perform as hoped/expected IC, then the GM can still turn/move the storyline/game forward without recrimination of what hasn't been done or how it should have been done -- everyone has different ideas on how to go about resolving an IC problem. PCs should not be penalised if they veer from the GM's preferred/expected course of action.
This is tricky for me too because most of what you guys do has a “Trickle Down” effect and it effects the world as a whole “In-Game”. I feel that I’m not getting much credit for letting you guys do what you want to with the plot. I don’t want to sound like I’m making excuses, but as an example of plots that your actions specifically dictated, here are some direct variations on how you guys completely changed the entire game/story that I had planned:
When the wargs were being fed to the giant snake I had them being eaten round-by-round – if you guys had taken longer to get there, White Fang would be Snake Food – but you guys finished the fight sooner – so now White Fang is part of the team because of your actions; I didn’t write it that way initially.
If Melthune and Zayna had helped the authorities in identifying the thugs back in Magnimar then those thugs would have been arrested at the time and hanged. As it was they got free from lack of evidence; they sailed off and waited to attack “your” ship on the way back to Beacon (they thought you were onboard) and were therefore able to get the map and ship’s logs that were sent to Beacon and discover the goblin lairs. I had assumed that a Priestess and a girl who was playing kind of a Crusader would happily testify against Bounty Hunters - when it didn't happen, my plot changed.
When you guys got to Osirion I had a whole Micro-Adventure for you guys to Raid/Pillage the High Priest’s house and do some cool combat in the city ala Prince of Persia/Assassins Creed – then you would all leave the city and sail to Amun-ta’s father and meet up with him only to discover the house was destroyed by “Undead”. Instead, you guys voted for an “Overland” adventure, so I had to scrap my maps; notes; stats and whole plan for the High Priest so you guys could go on an overland adventure because that’s what you guys wanted. That had good/bad effects – it’s bad because you guys missed out on unique gear/goods in the raid, but good because now a High Priest is not after you guys as some sort of major villain.
A new gang in Beacon is covertly looking to take over, or at least establish itself as a major player in the community and possibly supplant Zergev as the “Big Boss” in town (if you guys remember, Taissa specifically had words with that person earlier, but she wasn’t the only one who talked to him). You guys had the chance to deal with that in town and get direct information from specific people you were talking to; that could have really helped you guys (or hurt you, depending on what you said/didn’t say) – but you guys decided not to follow that up; so a whole plot is in motion that I wrote that now I’m not using with you all.
When that mysterious cloaked figure followed you at the Chapel in Beacon before you left to head to the Goblin Lair no one bothered to check him out – whatever he/she was doing regarding you guys now can move forward without issue – for good or bad.
In short, I feel like that I write pages of plots/character development and background – then you guys tell me – “You know, we want to do something else” – so I scrap all of that and move things to do what you want to do because it is a "free-flowing" world and actions you guys take actually effect the story in a powerful way.
My concern here is that I’m not sure what you guys want.
Most of the time you guys veer from the story I’ve written and I have to work like crazy to change all my work to fit the stuff you choose.
I admit, there have been times I’ve actually written out options on how you guys could have done things otherwise; but as a whole you guys almost always decide to do things I don’t plan, but I really feel like I try hard to change the entire plot to fit what it is you pick, so I’m not sure what you’d like specifically.
On the other hand – what I’m definitely clear on – as GM I’ll always know what choice will result in the best possible solution for you guys at any given situation – just because you don’t pick “the best” choice doesn’t mean I need to be an ass and point that out to you guys. That’s definitely something I’ll fix – but as for the other stuff; I’m honestly confused as to what I should do. Any further suggestions on this would be great.
That said, I can only do my best in that regard, but I certainly will try harder to make this work for everyone.
* No micromanaging. Especially if we're already allied to someone, I don't see why it is necessary to roll DIPLO and run dialogue streams when purchasing items from allies. If we are bargaining, it should only be a set of rolls back and forth ... Not multiple postings of rp. I can understand if we're in a foreign land and we don't know the merchants. But in Beacon, we should be able to get what we want if it is available because the townsfolk know we work for the Regent.
I agree. I don’t think it is necessary either.
I’m actually surprised that I see a lot of Diplomacy checks on the boards. Sometimes I ask for them, but not very often, but sometimes I see them in like every post for some reason.
I’m also confused at the comment about “Bargaining”.
Bargaining is a House Rule to attempt to allow players to get things at cheaper than “Book Price”. Anything that is available to buy is always going to be available at “Book Price” – unless for in-game reasons it’s more expensive or rare.
Anyone can simply walk into a store and buy (for example) a MW Shortsword for 320 GP – because that’s the price. Some of you may attempt to Bargain and become successful at it and get an item for a discount - that's to offset the low amount of GP I've been giving you all earlier. But you’re not required to attempt Bargaining, or even to make Diplomacy Checks in the first place (at least, for the most part). That can help you in the long run, but I don’t remember even asking for them very frequently.
As for conversation with allies when buying things? Most of that is typically “Flavor Text”. I’ve gamed with players in the past that like Social RP and story – I’m kind of used to that and was happy to RP with people who enjoy the same stuff. If I’m on the boards and another player is on the boards and wants to do some Social RP and all I have are allies via shopkeepers then I assumed that was merely fun back-and-forth RP and that was all.
Also, not all of the townsfolk even support the Regent – some of them are trying to supplant him – some of them are trying to take over his position – and not all of them are friendly. Just because you work for the Regent doesn’t mean the whole town will support you or back you.
I’m honestly confused at this point – are you guys suggesting you’d be more happy if the whole town was just a default “Friendly” or “Unfriendly” town? Right now I’ve written pages of notes on every shopkeeper you encountered – how they treat you; what they think of you; how you interact with them.
I suppose I can delete all of that, too, if you guys would like that – and I will, if you would prefer it, but I honestly that thought that having a town of people with their own personal motivations would be more interesting.
To be fair, I get the fact that when you get to “Home Base” you want to feel like “Cool – I’m home” as opposed to – “Great; I just got back to King’s Landing!”
That said – could I get more clarification here from you guys on what you want here, because I’m not really sure. I’ll do what I can to fix it, but I’m just confused as to what that is.
* From the beginning, this game was meant to be "low magic". That's why I was drawn to playing it. But I quickly learned that it is "low magic" for the PCs, but not so much for the NPCs. I think that's unfair and unappealing. "Low magic" to me means maybe one or two casters over a long period of time in game (and then low level magic -- some healing, some defensive spells etc) -- Not every time we meet an enemy their leader is a super-powerful evil caster. I was hoping brawn and strategy/cunning would be the way to go in this adventure. Not trying to survive the magic attacks of the enemy with little but physical might and non-magical weapons (for the most part).
I’m really lost here again. As far as I can tell, it has actually been very low magic. I don't know how much lower you guys are looking for at this point.
Since the game started you guys have only had 8 combats.
Your first fight was against some pirates. There were no spellcasters in the party except for the people on your side.
The second fight you had was against some goblins. There was no caster in the party at that time, though they did have some dire wolves.
Your third fight was against some more goblins and an orc priest and a big snake – the orc was a caster. None of them had magical weapons or armor.
Your fourth fight was against some Bounty Hunters in a town. None of them were casters; they were all using non-magical weapons.
Your fifth fight in the game was against pirates on the way to Osirion – again; none of them were casters; they were only mundane pirates.
Your sixth combat was against some diseased people in a canyon. None of them had magical gear or were casters.
Your seventh fight was against a horde of diseased people – again; none of them were casters or had magical gear.
Your eighth fight was against a Hydra – it had no magical powers at all and was not a caster.
At this time there has only been one combat in the entire game when your company faced a caster, and that was when you guys were on level 2.
To me, that feels like you guys have not fought hardly any magical users at all – except the one that you faced way back in the beginning. On top of that you already have magical gear to use in your combats – you recently bought magical gear at Osirion.
I feel like you guys are upset about all the casters and magic-users, but I honestly can think of only time you faced an actual caster in combat; everything else has been straight combat without magic (as far as I can recall).
If I’m missing something, I don’t understand what it is about a diversion from Low Magic. I’d happily correct this, but I’m really not clear what you’re looking for in this case.
Can you guys please clarify this?
* And following this: The only ones to benefit by any GM rulings, are the gunslingers, and honestly -- most of us don't use guns because of the time it takes to load and reload, and it is not in keeping with character. And I really don't like guns in these games -- I prefer bows, hammers and swords. But I'm trying to work with guns as they seem to be the preferred choice of every enemy we face, whether on land or sea.
Taissa suggested that the House Rules don’t benefit the players and that you guys would be happier getting rid of them (I think that’s what she means).
I don’t understand that, though. The House Rules are here:
1. The chance to Bargain (if you’d like to); or you can just buy at “book prices”.
2. The chance to use Dervish Dance on any Finesse Weapon.
3. The chance to use Accelerated Crafting so you guys can build a raft or a new bow in a few hours as opposed to well over a week.
4. The chance for all Ranged Fighters (including Archers) to take a Feat which adds their Dexterity Bonus to Damage (instead of Strength for things like Compound Bows) if the enemy is within 30 feet.
5. The ability to Craft/Create non-magical Healing Remedies.
6. The “Quick Draw” feat allows you to holster a weapon as a Swift Action rather then part of a Move Action.
7. All Casters have Intimidate as a Class Skill.
8. Diplomacy is now a Class Skill for Beastmasters.
9. You can use any Acrobatics Check as part of a Move Action if you up the DC by +20.
10. Firearms are now considered “Martial Weapons.
11. The formal rules for Firearms resolved Touch Attacks in the first increment. Now it’s the first 2 increments.
12. Gunslingers get a bonus to damage every 4 levels of +1 point.
13. Firearms are more common and now half price.
14. Magic Items are now double in price as they’re more rare (sometimes cheaper depending on where you are).
Those are 14 “house rules”. Only 4 of them apply to Firearms; and I’m considering dropping number 12 in any case.
I thought they seemed pretty reasonable but if you guys want them dropped, I can drop them. The only things I want to keep for sure are Numbers 13 and 14.
I can get rid of all the other House Rules if you guys want me to, I just am not clear what House Rules you'd like me to drop here.
Okay - I'm willing to do what I can to change things; I just need to know a little more information before I make those changes. If you can give me follow-up that would be helpful so I can fix things.
I know I'm already out of it, and I completely understand if Dain or anybody else doesn't want me to comment any more (as I no longer have a horse in this race, so to speak, and there's noting more irritating than meddling commentary from an ex-player), but I'd add that thing above to the pet peeves too. The NPCs frequently seem to be used as vehicles to get across the stuff that Dain (apparently) feels the PCs/players aren't understanding, such as White Fang's 'insights' and so forth.
Fair enough on that point on solving things.
I know I tend to write a lot of things, some people enjoy the read - others don't enjoy it as much. Sometimes I use NPC's to "Sum-up" points in case people miss them.
But I understand completely what you mean; if the NPC's have to solve everything in the game, maybe I need to cut back down on the DR for puzzles/mysteries a bit.
I think that may have also been what Polux/Taissa meant about cutting back on all the mysteries. That helps me understand a bit more; so good times!
FYI - Thank you for that suggestion :)
I think I get what Dain is trying to do with those (I don't want to put words in his mouth), which is to create the feel of a fully rendered world, and to put in story seeds that players can pursue-- the option for many many sidequests, etc. However, speaking as a player, having that many options to keep track of can be overwhelming: an overabundance of choice that makes it harder to sort out collectively what the party should be focusing on right then.
Actually, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Even every shopkeeper or barmaid has a name/story - when players meet them I don't like to ad-lib those details. I feel like it makes for sloppy writing.
On the other hand, I get that it can seem overwhelming to remember everything.
On the other hand - if players don't pursue things like dealing with the complex nuances of Father Liam's backstory from him being a former Knight; converting to a missionary priest and having a mission in Sargava, then deciding to take "The Word of Erastil" to the wilderness of Beacon and start another mission - it's totally cool. No one needs to follow-up on those details; in fact, they can ignore them with no problem.
I honestly don't want people to feel pressured by things like this in any way, it's meant for fun and enrichment is all.
The flip side is that if a player takes the time to write things down and take notes (again - they don't have to) good things can happen. For example, Taissa did very well with the Halfling Shopkeeper the first time she was in Beacon - I made a note on the shopkeepers card that she was really pleased with Taissa's work - when Taissa came back to meet with her, Taissa got major bonuses because the shopkeeper really liked her and remembered her.
But at the same time, if she didn't do that the shopkeeper would still have sold her things either way. Taissa got a bonus there for good RP in the past - but it wasn't a penalty if she didn't RP. At least, that's what I'm trying to make it feel like.
Finally (for example) - Jenner himself has a major alliance with the gnome on Captain Dodger's ship - she made him a special Firearm because she likes him - and he has a strong ally there (much like Polux has earned a strong ally with Snaga).
I try to reward good RP with little perks is all.
I can cut back on the details, but I feel like the game will suffer in the long run, so I'm not sure how to pursue this matter better.
Do you have any follow-up suggestions on this suggestion on cutting back details without hurting the game's "feel"?
I had considered making an additional "Chart" for people the PC's met and just posting a summary of it on the Campaign Thread to help out (kind of like the ship's crew). Do you think that would help?
I'm completely open to them - and feel free to "Check In" on the game any time you'd like.
I have no problem with "Guest Players" showing up, so long as they're friendly :)
On the issue of maps alone: if maps are such a huge hassle for you, Dain, I could probably create simple maps for you without a great deal of trouble on my part, whether that is just combat maps like we originally outlined for the group to use, or maps like 'Snaga draws the group a simple map of the lair they are going to'.
Not pressuring, just saying that the offer is there. Maps are something that I find easy and quick to make.
You can use any Acrobatics Check as part of a Move Action if you up the DC by +20.
I never understood this rule and it seems each time one of us have tried to incorporate Acrobatics into our action, you tell us we've done it wrong. In other games, people move using acrobatics so as to not incur AoO (if they succeed on the check). The DC isn't upped by +20. Unless you mean a character can start walking then they do make an acrobatics jump/roll etc in their one move per round ... or they pick up a weapon (move action) and then attempt a roll (using acro) in the same round action...again I've seen it done in other games and the GM hasn't upped the DC. Like I said, I don't understand how you mean this house rule to work. I would like to, however, because I would like to utilise Taissa's good ACRO modifier at some point.
I didn't say anything about the other house rules. But the part about giving gunslingers an advantage -- I still believe, via your house rules. Like I said, I'm not big on guns in games ... but the enemy has guns and so we need them.
Regarding the regular townsfolk, yes, they should automatically default to 'friendly' if they are allies and we are protecting the town. Unless we do something horrible to them, and it changes their opinion of us, then I say people like Vick, Petunia etc should give us what we need/want, if it's available. If someone new comes into Beacon and we need to trade with them, then it makes sense to try to win them over with charm and get a discount the first time around. But then they too should be considered 'friendly' thereafter.
The rolling Diplomacy thing: you do expect it rolled because on the occasions I or one of the others haven't rolled it, you have brought it to our attention. I now roll it all the time, to spare myself the hassle and slow down the game with retconned checks/rolls.
I mentioned bargaining because I know there is a check and an opposed check and a penalty if we fail. So I would expect a diplomacy roll necessary in this case to get the discount we're looking for (if we succeed against the opposing check). But again, if the merchants are our allies and we have dealt well with them before, why can't we get a small discount without having to do bargaining? Because your tradespeople have quite high modifiers and it can be hard to beat their opposing checks.
The NPCS should always be in the background. This is what we need. They can't be the centre of attention -- even if they are sprouting information. They are secondary to the storyline. But I find they take over primary positions and it seems like they are so brilliant to how stupid and incompetent we (the PCs) are. Especially the amount of information/knowledge White Fang has who's been alive for mere months and only ever resided on a small isle, held in captivity. To me, even as a story hook, that's rather far-fetched. I know he is a magical beast but still, he is a "toddler" for all extents and purposes.
I think having a chart with each npc you've introduced and the pcs have interacted with is a sound idea. I keep notes, but that's me. But even then, I have to rifle through pages and pages to find what I'm searching for. That takes away from the fun for me.
The battle with Dirk Rowan and the Merchant Marines -- the enemy ship's captain was a caster and Taissa and Daya spent all of the combat time shooting at him to interrupt spells etc. The bad cleric on the isle off the Varisian Sea, with the dark, blood ritual, was a caster. You said in game, when those bounty hunters were aiming to steal Daya and White Fang, that the lead guy was a caster and lucky for us we downed him before it got ugly. So there are casters... and the smaller creatures you have attack us first are either controlled by the caster or brought in by one. The game feels more than "low fantasy" and it isn't only myself who feels that way. So what you consider "low magic" and what we do doesn't match up.
Jenner himself has a major alliance with the gnome on Captain Dodger's ship - she made him a special Firearm because she likes him - and he has a strong ally there (much like Polux has earned a strong ally with Snaga).
Holystone had intimate relations with Ella and she made him a special gift. Taissa has been nice to Ella and Kit from the get go and helped but hasn't received a gift or had herself deemed a "close ally". So, no it isn't as simple as that at all in game. And, Dain, if you say that the silly paper hats Ella makes for White Fang equate to a special firearm, I will have to disagree.
Hey guys, I'll respond to Taissa and Jenner a little later tonight, and anyone else if they toss something up.
Once we get those points nailed down (and anyone else's points, if they put them up) then I think we can move forward.
The battle with Dirk Rowan and the Merchant Marines -- the enemy ship's captain was a caster and Taissa and Daya spent all of the combat time shooting at him to interrupt spells etc. The bad cleric on the isle off the Varisian Sea, with the dark, blood ritual, was a caster. You said in game, when those bounty hunters were aiming to steal Daya and White Fang, that the lead guy was a caster and lucky for us we downed him before it got ugly. So there are casters... and the smaller creatures you have attack us first are either controlled by the caster or brought in by one.
Well, the guys with Dirk Rowan were actually Imperial Marines of the Cheliaxian Empire; an Empire that is Lawful Evil and follows devils. Giving them an evil caster was one thing – in the wilderness of Varisia, that’s going to be different.
As for this thing about Casters being the boss – that’s something that really won’t change because it’s not something that should make a difference “In-Game” to tactics or strategy. It's more of an over-arcing story dynamic for the future.
Besides, the person who’s sending thugs to kill you – if it’s a Mafia Boss or a corrupt nobleman, or an evil wizard – the way I see it, at the end of the day you’re mostly still dealing with thugs with mundane weapons. Sometimes you’re dealing with evil wizards and corrupt priests sending mercenaries to attack you; but that’s not always the case. Right now you're dealing with a pirate boss.
Also, a lot of the “Magic” you guys deal with is more superstition then actual casters. So if you recall there was some concern if a “Witch” in the north was actually the “Witch Class” or some sort of monster. Just letting you know now to allay concerns – there isn’t even a Witch Class there, though there is SOMETHING.
But the world is meant to be spooky, and creepy, and dark and mysterious and foreboding – when people who use Alchemist Fire and Tanglefoot Bags might be considered by the simple to be like a Sorcerer. When people get a Dire King Cobra – it’s still just a really big snake – but then again, some people might actually see it as a Demi-god. Does that make it a demi-god? No – but it’s really creepy to regular people.
Regarding the regular townsfolk, yes, they should automatically default to 'friendly' if they are allies and we are protecting the town. Unless we do something horrible to them, and it changes their opinion of us, then I say people like Vick, Petunia etc should give us what we need/want, if it's available. If someone new comes into Beacon and we need to trade with them, then it makes sense to try to win them over with charm and get a discount the first time around. But then they too should be considered 'friendly' thereafter.
Actually, that’s pretty much how I’ve been running things. Vick, Petunia, the Regent – you’re all considered Friendly with them. People like Zergev – who knows? You haven’t met him, yet.
As for other people – you’re basically on a “First Impression” basis. The first time you meet with someone they’re neutral – the check is pretty much just the first time around. Most people are pretty happy with you, actually.
But here’s what I’d like to do: if someone can get me access to a Shared Excel Sheet like in certain Loot Lists I’ll toss up all the notes on the characters you’ve met and you guys can have a reference for whoever you meet and amend it with whatever notes you want – including notes on if they’re friendly or not.
Would that work?
On the issue of maps alone: if maps are such a huge hassle for you, Dain, I could probably create simple maps for you without a great deal of trouble on my part, whether that is just combat maps like we originally outlined for the group to use, or maps like 'Snaga draws the group a simple map of the lair they are going to'.
Not pressuring, just saying that the offer is there. Maps are something that I find easy and quick to make.
I really appreciate that, Jenner :)
Honestly, I'd love your help in that project, but given the fact that it could involve a lot of work for you, is that something you'd be interested in doing in the future with me?
Dain, I believe you have a gmail account. You can use Google Drive to set up a shared file like the one you want to create for the npcs we've met. You can put up a link on the campaign page and we could access it. I don't think it's a good idea to give everyone access to amend the document, however. I think one person should be responsible for that -- keeps it more accurate and easier/safer to manage. But that's just my opinion. If people want to keep extra notes, they can have their own files or can ask the caretaker to upload the details to the drive.
On the issue of maps alone: if maps are such a huge hassle for you, Dain, I could probably create simple maps for you without a great deal of trouble on my part, whether that is just combat maps like we originally outlined for the group to use, or maps like 'Snaga draws the group a simple map of the lair they are going to'.
Not pressuring, just saying that the offer is there. Maps are something that I find easy and quick to make.
I really appreciate that, Jenner :)
Honestly, I'd love your help in that project, but given the fact that it could involve a lot of work for you, is that something you'd be interested in doing in the future with me?
Like I said: maps are something I find quick and easy to make. I'm not saying I'd necessarily want to commit to it for a campaign that went for RL years, but I'd be happy to make some quick ones and walk you through it and so forth. And since I'm not, at this point, playing you don't have to worry about spoilering me for areas the group is going to explore. In theory I could hopefully teach you some techniques on making quick maps and, when you felt comfortable doing your own, there you go.
The main things with maps, in my experience, is that the group doesn't need beautiful perfection maps for an area they may never visit again. Given a choice between really simple maps and no maps, players prefer really simple maps, just because visuals are sometimes a lot clearer to understand than text, and a lot quicker grasped, at a glance.
I can describe a multi-room cave complex with multiple paragraphs of IC description, or I can be like 'Snaga draws this'. This doesn't REPLACE getting to do prose description and elaboration on what is in the cave, but it provides a quick and easy aid in visualization, etc-- a reference for players to attach the prose description that they are getting.
[To clarify, this is NOT meant to be an accurate representation of what Snaga has described for us so far-- this is simply an example of 'hey, here's how easy and simple it is to make a basic map that would communicate simple info to the players' -- because I literally made that in three minutes. It doesn't have to be a hassle for you.]
Anyway, like I said, I don't mind doing maps, and sharing tricks and shortcuts for that sort of thing.
I was pondering what exactly to add to the debate, and found myself torn between a huge post and a single line - I am going with the single line this time to say that I believe most things have been addressed and/or spoken about at this time. I would add/reinforce:
- Dain's game makes me want to play a bard, a dwarf or an elf with the Breadth of Knowledge feat to toss knowledge rolls left and right, but even then the sheer amount of information, offered at the pace it does, may be too much to process (keep in mind I find this to be a rich environment, I just simply feel we cannot process it all);
- I welcome the multitude of plot hooks, and possible directions to take, and I am not against 'subtle' hints regarding this or that course of action, but that's it. Sometimes the GM's work goes unnoticed one way or the other - it happens, and I am sure it has happened a thousand times to anyone who has been a GM. There are ways to circumvent this while still 'nudging' the characters towards some particular piece of knowledge, or plot hook - but if it feels forced, it takes the fun away. The players know what they know, and that's that. Of course the GM is always free, in my opinion, to say 'guys, the way you play, not really caring about the massive amounts of information I provide, really turns me off - I am not having fun, so the game is going bye-bye' - everyone should have fun, both players and GM. If there is a side of this equation not enjoying it, as far as I am concerned there is no point in continuing;
Don't really think I have much more to say ;)
Hey guys, I was in a car accident today; I'm a bit messed up right now.
I'll respond to stuff as soon as I can.
Thanks again for your patience.
Dain, take care of yourself. Get checked over too, as car accidents can bring other complications. Sorry this has happened to you.
Sorry to hear. :( Echoing Taissa, get checked and rest well.
Thank you for your well wishes, guys.
I’m still a bit out of yet, my muscles are still kind of sore and some other issues I don’t want to go into right now.
However, it feels like the short answers are (more detailed stuff will come later when I'm feeling better) –
1. If I’m going to do details/puzzles then I need to give you guys time in-game to figure things out at your own pace.
2. Your characters are able to dedicate their whole life to all the data presented – our real life prevents us from doing that, so having a “Cheat Sheet” for you guys to look at with a page that has the following notes on it via the characters you’ve met:
1. Name
2. Race
3. Species
4. Age
5. Possible Class
6. Possible Level
7. Location
8. Relation to players – (i.e. Friendly, Neutral, Unfriendly)
Question – is there anything else I could add to that list?
3. Keep maps simple/cut-and-dry; details help, but a simple map that is easy to read is better then a beautiful map that is so detailed it’s confusing.
4. Via Number 2 – if NPC’s are “Friendly” then they they’ll be honest with you and won’t give you false or misleading data; things will be simple and direct.
5. If the GM requires rolls, he’ll ask for them specifically.
6. Keep the pace moving forward and don’t get bogged down in unneeded problems/issues – if the players are improvising, then reward that rather then bog it down.
Is there anything else that I could add via a “sum-up”?
PS – Taissa – via your earlier concerns about Ella recognizing your friendliness – don’t worry; Ella is planning on making White Fang a little doggy-jacket with a skull and crossed bones that says “Bones are Yummy” to go with his paper sailor hat ;)
I'm fine with those, Dain. In regard to the NPC "cheat sheet", if the character is a sailor, then put the name of the ship they're sailing on, and the captain, please.
And I'm sure White Fang will love his new doggy-jacket. Just make it sure it's masterwork as the pup has rich tastes. ;)
Keep taking care of yourself -- don't let the pain or muscles get worse.
Very sorry to hear of the accident Dain - make sure you get yourself the necessary rest man.
I agree with the offered changes.
I too am on board with the proposed changes.
First, get better soon and am hoping things are as good/best they can be after such an event.
Middle of last year I lost control of my car on wet/oily road and punched a guard rail with the front left bumper. Thankfully, nothing worse than the damage to the car.
Still, get treated for anything and I hope your vehicle/damages etc aren't too bad.
Second, in relation to the game? "Relax". Perhaps you can, kind of, 'Take it slow'. See if the characters can drive the pace of things.
I am truly looking forward to seeing the game pick up again. Though rest well and recover well.
Wishing every one all the very best.
Hey guys -
Thank you all for your well wishes. I hope to be good, soon.
I would upload the Excel Sheet with the characters, but as I stated before, I don't know how to do that.
When I find out how to do that I'll upload at least the sheet with a few notes on characters that are on/around Beacon so far.
I hope to get the game running soon; for now I'm doing the best I can, though.
Rest and get well.
Wishing you a pleasant recovery.
Much cheers to all.
Dain, send me the npc spreadsheet and I will upload it to Google Drive and send you the link to use on the campaign page.
Dain, send me the npc spreadsheet and I will upload it to Google Drive and send you the link to use on the campaign page.
You should have it by now, Taissa. I look forward to seeing it up, soon :)
Rest and get well.
Wishing you a pleasant recovery.
Much cheers to all.
Thanks, Melthune.
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Dain, here is the link for the NPC Outline. I can't update the campaign page as I'm not the GM. So, can you please place the link on the Campaign page? Thanks.
Well done...thanks Tai and Dain GM! This is very helpful.
Hey guys -
So the news on the car is that it's legally totaled.
I need to make an appointment to see a doctor today and get some tests done.
I will also need to start looking for a new car.
Meanwhile -
I am glad that the "Character Cheat Sheet" helps. As the game goes on I'll be sending Taissa some updates for the sheet from time to time as you meet new people and as their status changes (for example - if the Regent dies, or if someone robs/stabs a "Friendly").
Friendly characters will always tell you the truth as they know it. They MAY keep secrets from you, but not to harm you or confuse you - but for quest purposes (for example - Father Liam may have details on Jean Gascon and did not share them because no one asked about them).
Very rarely characters may attempt to keep secrets from you - in which case you can make a Sense Motive check to get a "Hunch" that they're trying to keep secrets (you'll receive a prompt about that via a roll in OOC for Friendly and Neutral Characters, though). Friendly types will only keep secrets if another has asked them too, however.
Neutral characters will answer direct questions with direct answers. They may not give you all the information; but it's not likely for them to lie or deceive you, they just may not give you a full set of details.
Unfriendly characters (none formally identified at this time) may outright lie to you. It will be up to you to be looking for lies without being prompted, though - but only for characters specifically noted as "Unfriendly".
Via some recommendations about the complexity and subtlety of the plot/story I'm also going to attempt to make a "Cheat Sheet" for on-going plot-points as you guys progress, to help things out with that later. That will come later, though - right now my arms and wrists are still a little sore and it's not too easy to type for long periods.
Finally - I hope to have a new map of the upcoming event in the lair soon (tonight or tomorrow, perhaps). I will tell you know; it will not be "pretty" but it will be very "direct" so you guys get the details as good as can be. That will happen later when I am able to do it.
Last Point: I'm trying my best to "reboot" the style of how I GM here to make things more fun for people. If anyone has any general suggestions about style; keep me posted. As for specific questions about how an item or skill works - I'll do my best to answer those in time.
Once the "reboot" is in play, keep me posted on what you think of the "tweaks". If they need any changes, or if you guys see things that you like or don't like and I'll do my best to work them in. Specific questions about "low or high magic", types of Feats, uses of certain skills - I'll have answers to those after a bit; but certainly not until you get back to town.
If you guys can think of anything else, please let me know. Thanks!
Sorry to hear about your car. :(
Very best wishes/hopes for how things are going for you at the moment.
Wishing your health etc all the best.
Much cheers to every one else.
Hey guys; sorry for the delay - yesterday I came down with something nasty and I've been really sick this weekend. Also, I've had a lot more complications with the car/accident stuff that I need to work through.
I hope to have something up soon, thank you all for your patience.
Dain, take care of what you need to and also your health and well-being.
Please, your health, life, wellbeing are the important things! Wishing you and yours all the best and am hoping things straighten out for the best for you and yours!
I echo the other's well wishes Dain - all the best for you man, and take your time to get better.
Sorry for the delay gang.
Yesterday I had really bad fever - going between shivering for about half an hour to breaking out in cold sweats for half an hour. Also, possibly due to the stress and illness I ended up having a seizure and banged my head pretty badly.
I went into work today - found out that I'm losing one of my jobs due to downsizing and I need to find more work soon because of the medical bills piling up.
Anyway - that said, I did what I could to update the site.
I hope it's okay, but as promised, the maps are pretty crude. Also, I'm pretty out of it right now, so apologies in advance.
At work.
There's definately no need to appologize!
Real Life is putting you through the wringer!
Please don't stress about the game. We will all be here for, both to offer at least an interweb shoulder for moral support as well as to join in the fun that is your game.
Wishing you and yours all the very best.
Sorry for only a quick post.
About Mel getting all 'nekkid' for the guys? ;)
I'd actually been thinking really hard about this before...well...things.
The pair of options I'd thought of/come across were
1) Borrowing one or two of Holystone's "Air-crystals" (I alwyas forget what the actual alchemical name is, sorry) and simply 'walking' in. Assuming the way was short enough.
2) Similar to 1 but, yes, stripping down to the padding and paddling into the place.
Now, since things have resolved a little (Still wishing every one all the very best)
Coming in through the 'roof' and fighting down definitely seems the better idea. As long as we can keep holding any/all the 'choke' points between levels we should actually do pretty well.
Melthun is a moving wall... And there's nothing better for allies to hide behind than a wall, especially one made of metal. :)
With the sad loss of Hollystone.... Are we seeking to bring in more bodies....Uh, I mean hope that we find souls in need of rescue within the Bandits lair?
Just a thought.
Shall try and get a post up some time soon.
Again, all the very best to all. Rest/recover well DM Dain. Hope things smooth out for others in regards to Real Life.
I'm guessing that to get up there, Melthune will have to climb - isn't that going to be a problem also with the armor on? Perhaps even worse than swimming? ;)
The issue here is about retreating - we will have close to no healing in there, so if we have to bail out, climbing a chimney looks like a bad choice, doesn't it?
What?! And waste all that money I paid for healing alchemy? :P
Besides, with her Str, climbing with ropes and Sherpa-Snaga we should be good for getting to the top. ;)
Much cheers to all.
We should give Snaga a bow as Tais is the only ranged fighter and Snaga has pretty good DEX from what I remember.
Polux, do you have a bow to give Snaga?
It's almost bed time for me but tomorrow I will post IC. If we decide to go through the chimney, I can have Daya fly Snaga up to the top and he can lower down a rope and help us climb up.
I'm guessing that to get up there, Melthune will have to climb - isn't that going to be a problem also with the armor on? Perhaps even worse than swimming? ;)
Via the Request that I don't sweat the small stuff:
Normally yes; it would be harder for Melthune to climb then swim at this point. However, for now I'm trying to take a page from doing things the "new way". In this case, if you guys can explain what you're doing, there's a good chance you may not even need to roll.
In this case I assumed the plan was to have Daya fly up to the top with Snaga and rope and lower the rope to Melthune and the group and try to brace/hold the rope and see if you could get Melthune to be pulled up.
Once you get to the top, there IS a chimney, yes - it leads down the main fireplace on the second floor. However, there is a wide stairway on the roof that takes you down to the third floor and that stairway is currently covered by a wooden door/hatch.
The other option is to have someone swim in the bottom pretty easily and drag a rope. Then have the other end tied to Melthune who will sink like a stone to the bottom of the trench and then just drag him through the trench to the other side of the water and haul him up. Once that's done, you guys could go through the bottom (if you'd like).
Either option is up to you guys, though. Just narrate yourself to the entrance and we should be okay.
I can't stress this point enough, though -
When you guys are on the summit this will turn into a tactic issue when I'll need things like: Marching Order; Stealth Checks (if applicable) Perception Checks (for traps and threats); check your light sources and so on.
But that's once you guys get inside. Until then I'm waiting on Hack to toss things up, I guess.
See you all soon!
Make the Perception and Stealth check on every turn we enter a new area.
Marching order should be Polux, Snaga, Hack, Tai, Melthune. That will give us plenty of opportunity to stay silent.
Who has a light source? Snaga can carry it?
Let's decide quickly which direction of entry. Like I said, I do not have a preference. Either is fine, and Melthune should be able to keep her armor in any event.
Tais has torches -- she brought them along in her kit.
Good times!
I'll put something up soon, then.