Cackle & Fortune used together... need some RAW clarification

Cackle & Fortune used together...need some RAW clarification if someone in the Paizo Staff can help out, or maybe this has been covered in a thread?

this e-mail during a conversation with a player of mine who is also doing some moonlighting at the game shop.
What happened...he is running a fighter, witch uses fortune on him then cackles each round for 2 following rounds (3 total). Ruling at the table was that he was allowed to use it each round (hit 3 times due to the extra rolls). Sounded a little over the top (to him and me) so here was my response.

...last note for the witch "cackle" and "fortune"...your DM is reading cackle right, no question there but the end of the fortune special ability reads..."Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." which is a little vague but my guess would be that the fortune effect would remain in effect until the creature benefited in some way.
Example: If you roll 2 attacks the first round and missed, no benefit, then witch cackles to extend, then you roll 2 attack die and hit then you benefited
...problem is the RAW states "The target can call upon this good luck once per round," which can be confusing b/c people would think that you can benefit more than once.
my interpretation would go with the word "benefit" being the key. If you don't benefit then the luck is still hanging on (through cackles or extension at 8th & 16th levels) if you do benefit then it is "spent", otherwise this power seems waaay overboard.

Of course just an opinion.

Cackle & Fortune used together...need some RAW clarification if someone in the Paizo Staff can help out, or maybe this has been covered in a thread?

this e-mail during a conversation with a player of mine who is also doing some moonlighting at the game shop.
What happened...he is running a fighter, witch uses fortune on him then cackles each round for 2 following rounds (3 total). Ruling at the table was that he was allowed to use it each round (hit 3 times due to the extra rolls). Sounded a little over the top (to him and me) so here was my response.

...last note for the witch "cackle" and "fortune"...your DM is reading cackle right, no question there but the end of the fortune special ability reads..."Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." which is a little vague but my guess would be that the fortune effect would remain in effect until the creature benefited in some way.
Example: If you roll 2 attacks the first round and missed, no benefit, then witch cackles to extend, then you roll 2 attack die and hit then you benefited
...problem is the RAW states "The target can call upon this good luck once per round," which can be confusing b/c people would think that you can benefit more than once.
my interpretation would go with the word "benefit" being the key. If you don't benefit then the luck is still hanging on (through cackles or extension at 8th & 16th levels) if you do benefit then it is "spent", otherwise this power seems waaay overboard.

Of course just an opinion.

One could argue that rolling the extra die is the benefit, regardless of the result of the roll. I'd say that just to make it consistent in duration, personally.

Here's how I would rule it: Cackle can indeed extend the duration of the Fortune hex, however, once the duration is gone (as in, the Witch stops Cackling to do something else and Fortune's duration expires), it's gone for the day for that person.

I'd rule the same as Swivl. As long as the Witch keeps using her actions to make the Fighter's action go strong it's fine with me RAI and RAW.

I'd rule the same as Swivl. As long as the Witch keeps using her actions to make the Fighter's action go strong it's fine with me RAI and RAW.

Ditto. +1

I would read it as they can be the subject of the Fortune Hex only one during any 24 hour period. As long as the Witch can keep that duration going it stays in effect. Once it lapses thats it for 24 hours.

This really gets fun is fortune is on a PC and evil eye on the BBEG....

And the witch just cackles away each round!!!

This really gets fun is fortune is on a PC and evil eye on the BBEG....

And the witch just cackles away each round!!!

Which leads me to why this ability needs some clarification so it can get abused properly...

There's a quick fix and that's smacking laughing boy hard enough to make him move...of course if he is hasted...well...I might have to snuff him.
Any time I start thinking like that as a DM I start debating the strength of abilities (overpowered that is).

Like I said, mostly waiting for a staff guy to wade in on this one.

I'm going to stick with nerfing it for now and if it comes up otherwise so be it, been wrong before.
I don't mind erring on the side of the BGs anyway.
BBEGs need love too.

Thanks for the posts!

KenderKin wrote:

This really gets fun is fortune is on a PC and evil eye on the BBEG....

And the witch just cackles away each round!!!

Which leads me to why this ability needs some clarification so it can get abused properly...

As something that allows 2 for 1 rolls every round, I still think it is overpowered, MOSTLY because it can be used by the witch on multiple allies which makes the BBEG pretty weak sauce, once 2 or more PCs are pounding away with twice the dice.

There's a quick fix and that's smacking laughing boy hard enough to make him move...of course if he is hasted...well...I might have to snuff him.
Any time I start thinking like that as a DM I start debating the strength of abilities (overpowered that is).

Like I said, mostly waiting for a staff guy to wade in on this one.

I'm going to stick with nerfing it for now and if it comes up otherwise so be it, been wrong before.
I don't mind erring on the side of the BGs anyway.
BBEGs need love too.

Thanks for the posts!

A witch in mid cackle is like a turret in a battle -- yeah they are having a big effect -- but they are also a really big target.

Consider:

Move action -- Cackle
Standard action -- evil eye/ fortune/ etc.
Swift action -- quicken spell maybe?
5 foot step.

Now for cackle to work the witch must stay within 30 feet of every effect the witch wants to continue... with no move action left the witch is a nice squishy target (especially with it's lack of defensive spells). Please note this is also a successful means of ending the hex -- just get the BBEG out of the 30 foot range -- the witch must decide if they are going to cast, move, cackle, or do something else.

Finally remember that fortune only affect one roll each round. Misfortune affects all rolls.

I cackle inside my obscuring mist.......

I cackle inside my obscuring mist.......

I fly and cackle.

PC's pleasantly clustered together in 30 feet of someone who is being fairly loud? Sounds like the place for an AE spell to me. (or several!)

This looks like a job for Countersong?

~will

This looks like a job for Countersong?

~will

That is a good question.......

Rats. Countersong does not apply as apparently Cackle is not a sound based effect.

Sigh, I was hoping to have the Head Bad Guy have a capering goblin bard whose quips and stunts distract the Witch preventing the Cackle from maintaining the Fortune hex.

I say rats again.
~will

OK...I realize it's been a couple years since this post has been active, but I just started a witch and the topic of Fortune and Cackle has come up so here's my take.
I agree with the OP that the key word is "benefit". He can only benefit from the hex once every 24 hours. Just like the OP's scenario, if the target roles two attacks and fails both, he didn't benefit. Even if the second role was higher and still misses...no benefit. So the witch can cackle to extend it for another round...

The part about "The target can call upon this good luck once per round" means that you can only ATTEMPT to benefit once per round...ie.if you choose to use it for a save on the enemy's turn, you can not in the same round take two attack rolls when it's your turn, even if you didn't benefit from using it on the save.

I also don't read it as you can only be hexed with it once per day. If you are hexed with fortune and the enemy dies, or flees, or whatever before you can benefit from fortune, you can be hexed with it again without needing to wait 24 hours.

There's actually a very similar thread going on right now.

The way it should work is thus:

Witch Fortunes fighter.
Fighter has 1 round to use the reroll. If he doesn't, sucks to be him. Cna't be effected again for 24 hours.

Witch fortunes fighter.
Witch also cackles.
Fighter can now use it once a round for two rounds.
(or for as many rounds as he's in range of the witch and the witch continues to cackle).

The "benefit" is the hex. Whether or not you choose to make use of that benefit is up to the player.

Also note that at 8 and 16 the hex gets an extra round tossed in for free.

also other thread is here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz65zw?Witchs-fortune-hex

-S

hey guys! Jason Bulmahn just recently responded to a similar thread. Here's his professional response:

Basically.. its this.

Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again.

In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Late night board surfer