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I have a few questions in regards to power armor unarmed attacks.
Each suit lists how much “Unarmed” damage it can deal.
Does this Unarmed attach count as Archaic and Non-Lethal?
Also, can you take attacks of opportunity with this attack, or do you need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to do so.
If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, do you use its damage dice if it is better?
Finally, can you use fusions (and seals) to modify the attack made by the power armor?
Prevailing opinion on these forums (insofar as I've seen) is that you cannot use fusions or fusions seals on the powered armor's unarmed strike damage.
I for one would totally allow it.
None of your other questions have clear answers yet, I'm afraid.
If the armor was made of a special material, should that apply to the unarmed attack as well?
There is not a rule stating the answer to that, that I have ever seen.
As a result, unless I'm missing something, whether the material applies to unarmed attacks is squarely in "ask your GM" territory. They may say yes, they may say no, they may say it depends on the material, allowing cold iron gauntlets to bypass supernatural DR but not allowing adamantine gauntlets to punch through wall hardness.
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I will attempt to answer as many questions as I can but I am sure I recently read a post on this topic. Please bear with me as some of your terminology isn't accurate and I will strive to correct it as gently as possible because when reading rules, terminology matters quite a bit.
Each suit lists how much “Unarmed” damage it can deal.
This is not unarmed damage. This is kinetic damage (of a type listed by the power suit; piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) the suit deals when you make an unarmed melee attack. This is an important distinction. They type of attack and the type of damage will be used to determine answers to your other questions.
Does this Unarmed attach count as Archaic and Non-Lethal?No, to both questions. In the Weapon Special properties it gives guidelines as to what constitutes an Archaic weapon. A power suit is not made of primitive materials. As far as nonlethal damage goes I can see where this could be confusing based on the reading of Unarmed strikes on page 190. However, it's important to note that the rules for power armor SPECIFICALLY state that it is an unarmed MELEE attack. Not an Unarmed Strike. Thus this attack does not do nonlethal damage.
Also, can you take attacks of opportunity with this attack, or do you need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to do so.
Yes. Because this is an unarmed melee attack and not an unarmed strike you do not require the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, do you use its damage dice if it is better?
No, see the above answer. Remember, Power Armor is quite different than heavy or light armor. Think of it this way. Iron Man has powered armor. It's what allows him to punch through walls. Without it, could Tony Stark punch through a wall? No.. The damage from this armor comes from the fact that it's powered.
Finally, can you use fusions (and seals) to modify the attack made by the power armor?
I don't see why not. The power armor itself is considered a weapon for the purpose of these unarmed melee attacks. There is no official ruling, however I don't see that this would be a problem as it would ONLY allow the fusions to affect the unarmed melee attacks. Remember that all restrictions would apply for these fusions. For example, a blasting fusion would not be allowed as it applies only to ranged weapons.
There is no such thing as an unarmed melee attack that isn't an unarmed strike.
There is no such thing as an unarmed melee attack that isn't an unarmed strike.
I think the rationale you are offering would be true if "unarmed strike" was not used in a categorical sense.
I say that because it's implied that unarmed strikes are a category of an attack type which requires unique addendums in the rules text. Headbuts, kicks, punches with bare hands are all considered unarmed strikes. Meaning that you have no weapon attached to those limbs to provide a source of damage.
An unarmed melee attack presupposes that the melee attack, headbut, kick, punch is made much like an unarmed strike, but you have some form of weapon attached as a source of damage. Battle gloves offer a good example. You can carry other weapons while wearing them but an attack made with them is not considered an unarmed strike. In the case of power armor, the armor itself is the weapon.
One could argue that because power armor is armor and not a weapon it provides a unique type of unarmed melee attack.
All that being said, I still believe that you can make an unarmed melee attack in the sense that you aren't holding a traditional weapon type and the armor itself is the source of damage as opposed to your fist or leg or head or other appendage.
Raw it is muddy. You could say "if he has PA proficiency then he knows how to use it, even without additional weapons." Or it could be "just cause you have a bigger better body does not mean you know kung fu." I know what I would rule but for safty ask your gm.
Don't get power armor damage confused with the training required to do lethal damage with an unarmed strike.
Power armor doesn't require kung fu skills. Getting hit with the force of a car moving 65 mph is gonna cause some serious damage regardless of ur ninja skills. Think of it this way. A hammer is designed to focus a lot of energy into a small area. Even someone with rudimentary training can do serious damage with a hammer. A trained expert could focus a similar amount of force into the first 2 knuckles of his bare fist, but anyone who lacks such training would be out of luck.
The source of damage matters. It matters a lot. Hence most gaming systems recognize the extensive training necessary to do lethal damage with your bare hands/feet without taking that same amount of damage yourself.
When u swing a sword, the sword itself absorbs most of the force when it strikes. When u punch someone, you have to be careful that you don't take as much damage as ur target.
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P.S. Don't listen to the movies. Nobody wins in a headbut.
Agreed in RAW being somewhat unclear. However, ruling that punching someone with a very costly, heavily armored, power-assisted armor is no more damaging (i.e. Archaic, non-lethal) than doing it bare-handed feels contrary to both the idea of game balance (expenditure of game ressources) and rules construction (archaic property is called-out every time it applies).
Agreed.
If I were the GM and this came up at my table, I would rule that attacks while wearing powered armor are considered armed melee attacks with the armor itself as the weapon and the source of damage. I wouldn't allow feats or items that are specifically meant for unarmed strikes to be used in conjunction with power armor.
I would allow aoo with powered armor melee attacks as you must use your reaction to make an aoo and you can only make one aoo per round. This isn't game breaking or overpowered in any way. I would also allow fusions to be placed on power armor at the cost of either an armor slot or a weapon slot.
Easy peasy and stays in line with the theme and rule intent as I can discern them.
Maygar5, would you allow someone to apply fusions and similar effects (such as spell buffs) to said armor weapons?
P.S. Don't listen to the movies. Nobody wins in a headbut.
But you can lose by less if its important...
I would if they were willing to use armor slots or weapon slots for those fusions. I think that balances things out fairly easily. If you review power armor, you will see that they are categorically less damage than weapons in every case. The Warmaster's Harness is about the strongest Power Armor there is for melee attacks and it only does 5d10 damage where as most melee weapons (especially 2 handed melee weapons) just do more damage.
This has come up in our games recently. Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd revive this one. I for one am still hoping for clearer answers to some of these questions.
Please FAQ the OP's post!
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maybe I'm a little late, but thanks to Magyar5 I have learned a lot and it has solved many doubts, but there is one thing with which I do not agree.
Xen-Drik wrote:
Finally, can you use fusions (and seals) to modify the attack made by the power armor?
....
maybe it's a bit far-fetched and unclear, but a unarmed melee attack with the powered armor cannot be added weapon fusion (and seals).
why?
- Weapon fusion and Fusion seal only can be place in weapons.
- a unarmed melee attack and Unarmed Strike is the same?
....
....
difficult to answer, my theory, no, the reason, is because the only reference to "unarmed melee attack" It can only be found in the Power Armor Damage section, so I deduce that it is a special property of the power armor, but no a weapon in itself.
a unarmed strike can be place weapon fusion (and seals) being a basic melee weapon? no, just for the fact that it has no levels, an indispensable condition for Weapon fusion and Fusion seal.
which brings me to my third reasoning.
- Can you put weapon fusions on the Armor Storm Hammer Fist feature?
Hammer fist treat any unarmed strike you make while wearing heavy or powered armor as being made with a battleglove with an item level equal to or lower than your soldier level, and you calculate damage for these attacks as if you had the melee striker gear boost.
in another post, I have learned that it cannot be done, because it says that it treats like a weapon, not that it is a weapon.
It is just my interpretation, I have learned things that I did not know, and I would like to share my interpretation that I think know.